Me, living like Jon Snow with a wall of an opposing team coming at me and realizing way too late that my other team mates have all fallen back and scattered to various nodes š
I plead with people almost every game to not do immediate 180s and sprint to things like big ice or ovoos that haven't even activated yet, because they always leave a tail of 3-5 players that are trying to actually fight, who just get obliterated for daring to try.
Battle High? 98% of them are lucky to see BH1 before getting totally obliterated by a dude they can only hope to tickle so they're not even going to bother trying.
I could probably be doing something more useful than sneaking this enemy crystal like Iām playing Metal Gear, but hey, look, I peeled the enemy team!
I always dive with my teammates right behind me only to find out as I get massively overwhelmed that they've already peeled off for a node somewhere else. Also whenever I try to get away it's like I'm running in a dream, but if I'm chasing someone down they become Usain Bolt.
Bruh I felt that last part so much! Haha, I get stun locked into oblivion and meanwhile my dash seems to be like a few steps behind the opponentās dash when Iām trying to catch someone š
When Onsal was new every career PvP player switched to Adders on Light and farmed matches for 2 weeks streight for the mount.
After that they changed Frontlines to Freelancer only mode. But people hated Adders so much for those 2 weeks they got attacked on sight for another 2 months after.
I remember when Seal Rock was new. Being in Adders, I had to contend with premades in Flames or Mael. There's always a DPS or two with a bunch of pocket healers.
Whenever I play Frontlines, Adders seemingly always gets last place. Like a disproportionate amount of the time.Ā I wouldn't mind so much if it weren't for the fact that I also get put on Adders almost every match! I do just fine whenever I'm onĀ Flames and Maelstrom too, so at this point I'm just convinced the snakes are cursed.
I really wish theyād add a deathmatch map to the rotation. No nodes, no ice, no flags, just a pure PvP match that may help some players learn the fundamentals of this kind of content. At the very least we would get a brief break from the ālet them fightā crowd.
The biggest problem is the way nodes work. Rotating spawns and they despawn after some time. Make it like 2-5 permanent nodes and thatās it. Force everyone to pvp on the flag.
Can confirm seal rock is the death match map. Happened yesterday, both teams swarmed our side near spawn point and it was a blood bath. I open map to see hardly anyone capturing points and our team won out of mostly kill points than node points.
The other 2 teams would go at it too and we would pinch either one each time. The game went on until like 2-3 minutes left.
This. People don't seem to understand that mid node is not about the node itself - it's about using the opportunity for an all-out brawl to farm battle highs.
On nights when regular frontline PVPers do Onsal, I've seen people tell off their own team for capping the node in mid cuz it essentially signaled the end of the brawl.
CC doesn't have battle high. People mistake earning points in frontlines as being the only thing you need to do and focus on playing the game as pve clicking on points and avoiding combat.Ā
Battle high like the meme is suggesting is super important and the actual way to win. Get your battle high and you'll snowball past the guys in first place and they'll have a very hard time being able to catch up again.Ā
The closest cc has to that is the constantly longer timer for dying
Also CC lacks the chaos of dealing with a 24v24v24, where you're dealing with massive amount of people slinging CCs/dmg/lbs around, spinning your camera around for flank attacks because the 3rd team disappeared on your mini-map, while hunting down that BH5 lalafellin DRK and their suicidal DNC friend with a meteodrive and the power of spite.
I don't think that would be as fun or as educational as you're thinking. Frontline is as much about choosing your battles as it is about battling. Watching your map and sticking together are more important than just outright bravery and battle skill, and you can only practice those things when there are multiple objectives and enemy locations at a time.
They used to have a mode called Slaughter which was close to this. There was still PvE that spawned periodically in the middle of the map that you could kill for extra points, but for the most part you were killing other people.
The worst is when you have these people shouting orders to fall back in chat, and they end up with 0/2/1 stats and 50k damage done.
Some people are really mistaken on how to win in frontlines and dont understand the value of battle highs and snowballing.
Sometimes you do everything right, your team fights and keeps fighting to keep that lead, then both other teams gang up on your team and you wind up in last.
can confirm. Good positioning can protect you and your team from a lot of things, but when two teams decide to aggressively spawncamp the third team, there's kind of just no way out. I won a game like that once; red was around 1325/1400 and the other two teams were around 800-900 or so. both teams spawncamped red on either side so hard that they ended up in 3rd with the final scores being something like 1115/1327/1400.
and I've unfortunately been on the receiving end of that, and when you're that outnumbered, there's really nothing you can do.
If both teams gang up on your team and you wind up in last, it means your team has skill issue. The final decisive factor is player's skill in team fights, as is always for a PvP mode. No matter how many things you did right, there's always someone who did it better and did things you might have missed (a really eye opening experience for me when I end up discovering them).
I've been on teams where both teams decide to gang up on my team... and my team continued winning. It was actually kind of refreshing to see everyone ignoring nodes and killing everyone who decided to rotate into us before grouping up and capturing those nodes. Everyone ended up with BH5 at the end of the game and the score difference was over 700-800 from first place and second/third place.
I've been on fights where the "team" fought and it just resulted in half the group afk standing behind in a fight and the other half dying because they end up getting outnumbered and outmatched.
I'm guess they don't realize the premade they enter with is doing a lot of the heavy lifting. Ain't much you can do against 48 other players. BH5 ain't saving you from that. Maybe your whole team being BH4-5 and the hostile 48 barely managing a BH2 average?
But like, 50% extra damage and healing is nothing to scoff at. "BUT SKILL!" Yeah, sure. I managed BH5 once. I was pretty unstoppable for a good while there and all I did was get lucky with the killing blow on a group of people. Didn't exactly "git gud," I just had a huge statistical buff advantage so my damage wasn't garbage and my healing actually undid any damage I did suffer. The action efficiency of BH5 is absurd.
...And it was exactly after that point I stopped caring about taking Frontline seriously for my daily roulette. BH was the only thing that mattered. Pressing your buttons better isn't going to matter against someone (or more likely, someoneS) that have BH4-5 while you and your team might be sitting pretty at maybe BH2.
Sorry I'm a solo Frontline player with consistent winrate, so my understanding of the game mode probably differs a lot from yours since numbers disadvantage doesn't hamper my ability to win... Regarding solo, it's doable for solo players to win if you do everything you need to do right with enough skill, but it can be tedious if you want to chase guaranteed wins as a solo player because it stops feeling like a casual game if you're optimizing that much.
People underestimate how easy it is to win from skill levels alone but it's more of an iceberg situation when they hear "skill level". There's a big difference in depth and breadth of understanding the nuances of the game mode. When I say skill level, it doesn't stop at the job or knowing the mechanics. It also encapsulates the understanding of terrain (map, quirks/gimmicks/timing), the movement of where players and teams will go, how to move between various objectives (not just map related), draw aggro, reduce/lose aggro, ambush, reset enemy BH/scores, etc. Most of these concepts are topics people don't actively think about or know how to optimize into their gameplay and on the fly on a moment to moment basis because.. it's a casual game mode.
Ranked Crystalline Conflict has generally higher skill level because people use a limited set of these concepts more actively on an even-playing field to create openings, but that game mode doesn't use nearly as many naunced concepts as Frontlines does because the scale and players is smaller. That doesn't mean there's more disadvantages in Frontlines. The general players queueing into Frontlines and ranked players doesn't know how to utilize them either because there's a lot more different decision-making involved. It opens up a huge knowledge gap if you can take advantage of it.
A better anology with this situation is that a player with a good job rotation and understanding of basic casual mechanics doesn't go into savage fights/deep dungeon and think they're going to win just because they understand their job mechanics. That's the bare minimum requirement, but the misconception is that people treat the bare minimum requirement as if it's the skill ceiling and then wonder why they're not winning.
There's also understanding how to best communicate with the team and skills related to how to play around a weaker team fighting a stronger one. Frontline has many approaches to winning, but to get the best outcome, you need to do both really well. That's because there's many situations where your team's skill is weaker overall, but it doesn't result in a loss because 90% of players don't make nearly as many good decisions as they usually think they do either, creating plenty of gaps in every team I've encountered so far in Frontlines. You can reduce the gap of bad players to a certain point by using your own skill to create a "guideline" (knowing how to communicate that quick, effectively, and without being offensive is another skill in itself...), but it wouldn't help much if your own personal skill doesn't greatly exceed the general playerbase due to a limited understanding of both depth and breadth of the game mode.
That's why there was a history of complaints about a couple of premades dominating Frontlines (but in reality they weren't really hard to beat either because they usually are just a bit better than general players in Frontlines). Most people just don't bother to figure out or do all of that because it's a casual game mode and there isn't rewards tied to chasing wins after a certain point. People play this game mode for fun and usually doing all of that to win doesn't sound very fun for most players unless they're used to this level of complexity. But the skill level of players is very low, so this kind of thinking isn't necessary unless you want to be winning all the time for whatever reason.
You can do 50k damage with a single Comet cast, then stand around doing literally nothing, and have contributed more to the match than many players trying their best
This is the part that irks me so hard. Seeing people with sub-100k damage, like man you could have run around and only pushed ONE BUTTON THE WHOLE TIME and done better than that.
I told an AST the other day their 53k damage made me sad, and they said "maybe don't abandon your healers?" I'm sorry what, you're a green DPS in PvP, there is no "healer"
the only time falling back is acceptable is if you're outnumbered, or if you see both other teams approaching. Check your map often but don't ever trust it to show you the whole enemy team. what might look like 1 or 2 little enemy triangles is often the entire team coming to delete you 24 different ways from Sunday.
Even "fleeing" from claimed nodes is often not wise unless you've sent enough of the enemy team back to their spawn, because the team that runs usually gets chased. and if you're getting chased... then you best hope you're not the slowest player there.
Frontlines is partially based on morale and BH increase morale and aggression in the opposing team because they know they can dish out more damage than you can, meanwhile seeing a group of BHs snowballing into your team tends to demoralize on the opposite end.
Partially why I am not a fan of large-scale PvP where it's ultimately not skill but morale and aggression tthat decide if you win or lose.
the luck in team composition is just hoping that you have less glue-eaters and toilet seat-lickers on your team than the other teams do. Given the chaos of Frontlines and the overall "herding cats" or "scrambling around like headless chickens" mentality a lot of players have in this mode, never be afraid to use these teammates as meat shields. they're not gonna get BH5 anyways and they'll either learn from their mistakes, or they'll unintentionally provide cover/distraction for the competent players to keep their BH intact and help better guide your team to victory.
I mean, the ability to improve morale is a skill. There's a reason armies had drummers and marches.
Leading is also a skill. The skills needed for large scale PVP are different than smaller scale PVP. Too many people find their small scale PVP skills ineffective and think there's nothing they can do and just give it up to RNG.
Nah, skill definitely matters. A well timed limit break or even just debuff can lead to many Kos/assists not only scoring many points, but also giving your entire team more BH. A skilled healer can save people from otherwise lethal situations. A single tank can make entire teams waste their resources on them....
Even when losing, using not being targeted to sandwich the BH5 party can turn the tide rather quickly. Knowing how and when to be aggressive is important.
People underestimate how much a single person can do even in a battle royal style game. Also leading is a skill too.
Isn't that why you should queue PvP to, og I dunno, FIGHT?! I always call out when people say "let them fight." Always go for a pinch when you can, just dont pinch the team that is 0/700 because you will just get them to play Kingmakers for the other team.
I queue into pvp because they lock stuff i am interested in behind trophy crystals. I'm not really interested in try harding it. I'll throw some arrows and shit but like I'm not going through the effort of practicing.
While true pvp is the only one you don't have to "beat" to get what you want so sandbagging occurs. I can't savage raid. I know it's not in the cards for me with my bug man work schedule. So I don't even worry about savage drops. Trophy crystals, however. Edit: mfs can down vote all you want this is simply something that happens regardless if I do it.
Which is why I said this is mostly not true and explained the situation. At the same time if you don't push out and both teams decide to 2v1 you, you're gonna get slammed. Instead you can intercept one of the teams and get kills to finish the game or try to keep them fighting each other with good positioning.
No fight and get the node. I've seen more FL lost due to the team going into "PvP to the exception of all else" mode meanwhile the third team is capturing points literally 3 feet from our spawn.
It's really not that hard to understand you capture as many objectives as possible, go PvP until the nodes cycle out, open map, go capture any high priority nodes your team can get to before the others, then go pvp.
It's the most frustrating thing on the planet when a gold ovoo/point spawns in my teams "territory" and we lose it to a back door squad cause the entire team is literally on the other side of the map pointlessly bogged down in forever PvP near an enemy spawn
See the above picture why passivity is why you lose.
BH is how you win. Matches won by passive plays for points are very rare. Cause the moment the enemy sees you're in the lead you will get rolled and farmed.
Yeah yeah I saw. But I disagree with you on the point being āto fightā when the point is āto winā and while I know about BH and while I dislike it as a mechanic, I always encourage people to play objectives rather than sit and grind in the trenches.
Itās not a guaranteed win condition due to the other teams possibly having BH of their own. Not having it is, however, a near-guaranteed lose condition.
Playing objectives to win is important, but itās important in the second half of the match when you have BH. (E.g. your alliance is stacked with BH and in the lead, thereās no point to tunnel vision fighting other teams if you can defend and win.) Both āyou have to fightā and āyou have to be on objectivesā are true statements, but the reason Frontlines is hard (/h) is because good play involves knowing when one is more important than the other based upon the individual circumstances of the match at playāand then getting the gaggle of people who donāt to follow. (That being said, sometimes the āwrongā call is actually the right one or vice versa, depending on if your team is following it or not.)
TLDR donāt be that guy five minutes into a match going āguess itās over, thanks guysā because you have a major loss lead due to not playing objectivesāthe BH you get in the first ten means you can stomp objectives in the last ten
I'm so tired of people singlemindedly proclaiming there is one way to do things, when the whole pvp is about adapting yourself to the current situation. at any moment.
I mean what you are describing is hope pvp, hoping that your enemies are stupid and just ignore you while you play the objectives. And sometimes they are and you will win. But it is objectively a poor strategy, because if your opponent has eyes, then youāre going to lose.
The new map has the perfect example of this. You can hope all you want and if a single 5 pointer shows up and your team is the one without BH, you're not winning that super critical pointĀ
BH facilitates wins. It isnt a win condition, thats true, but it significantly helps you gain or maintain your win condition.
If you have a bunch of people with BH 5 late game, you can just steamroll over teams who don't and capture points to clutch out the win.
If you are in the lead, you are now the richest source of points. If you are defending multiple nodes, your forces are spread out.
Being passive is banking on the other two teams being blitheringly stupid, incapable of reading the leaderboard, and or have an unreasonable fixation on killing each other and fighting for third place.
Admittedly, every so often the other teams ARE this stupid, and you win.
But it's tactically playing Russian Roulette to bank on it. Playing defensively will guarantee you are at best facing 2v1 odds, and if you have multiple nodes chances are the odds will be worse on multiple fronts. PvP in this game is not designed around defensive play, so you will be at a disadvantage. And since you are ripe and juicy and full of points, just driving you off the nodes won't be enough, they will need to pop you like pinatas for the prize inside. In my experience this usually leads to a cascade effect, and by the time you regroup, you're in third.
Playing it safe =/= never engaging the opponents. It just means not rushing into a 1v1v1 or into a location you can be pinched from. EVERY FL mode is made significantly easier if your team knows how to engage and get battle high to contest those late-game nodes better.
Is it impossible to win passively? No. In fact, it's happened to me since I got one of those passive teams more than I'd like(though I've only had 2 wins from those types), but it requires the other 2 teams to play like absolute dumbasses.
Yet the the whole thread has already devolved into one that say how being over aggressive is the only solution, and how this is always a bad move, when the first post clearly stated "when you're in the lead".
A lot of XIV pvp players don't care for playing safe. They want people to zerg rush because "pvp is about hitting other". Look a this thread, half of the answer don't have any trace of the nuance you have.
It's because they're the two extremes. One side never wants to engage enemies and just rushes objectives, the other chases the first enemy they see towards their spawn and just feed them points. Sadly they're both the average types of FL player.
Isn't that why you should queue PvP to, og I dunno, FIGHT?!
That isnt the main reason I queue/play PvP mode in games. He'll it ain't even the 4 or 5 reason.
I like playing objectives in PvP modes, fighting other players is apart of it, but shouldn't be the SOLE reason for it. SE should reduce the amount of point you get for killing a player. Reduce the amount of points active at anytime, and increase the amount of points you get for getting an objecive.
They should have kept the Feast in the game for bozos like you, who just want to fight other players.
Firstly, its Player vs Player. The whole point is to have fun. I have fun getting into combat and hearing all the assist and KO sounds.
Just because the optimal play style is something you dont like doesnt mean it needs to be changed. If your idea of fun is standing on a point waiting for a bar to fill up more power to you.
Also do you really need to resort to childish insults? You get more points from team wipes than you do capturing points, especially with how many points you make the enemy lose.
Just because the optimal play style is something you dont like doesnt mean it needs to be changed.
Yes it does. Becuase at this point why have objectives on the map? When the winning condition is really what team can get to 50 kills first.
The objectives should be there to attack and defend, and give huge swings in points to where a defending team can win against a team that just deathballs the arena.
The point of the objectives are to get people to move around the map so they can fight in different spots. I.e something spawned near an enemy base. You and the other team sandwich them.
The new objective spawns and its now near your spawn. Now youre the one on the defensive trying to push back both teams.
Objectives move players around the map to fight on different spots.
I dont think you fully understand the design philosophy behind Frontlines.
Frontlines is a 'King-of-the-Hill' player vs. player gamemode. The problem it's it current iteration is that too many spawn objectives on the map at the same time. And they are not worth enough points to bother capture.
There should only ever be one 'Square' objective and one 'Triangle' objective active on the map at any given time. The scarcity of objectives would force more movement of the players and less passive standing on objectives.
Are you stupid? I wasnt complaining about PvP I was complaining about the fact the playing the objectives on the map do not matter enough for my tastes.
With how Frontlines is right now the objectives don't matter. It's practically just what teams can get to 50 kills first.
Battle High, I think, is bit too snowbally of a mechanic. I like its intention though. But what I think would be nice to have is a bit of a double-edged sword. That player with BH5 dying would be costly to the team and in turn a strategic engagement that wipes BH5'd team could turn matches around quickly.
Beyond that, I do agree that sitting passively and getting nodes is wrong way to go about it. I do dislike it when my team gets more nodes on our side of the map at first. It paints a massive target on the team's back and very few teams, even well coordinated, can deal with two teams stacking to pummel the third one down.
I mean, tbf killing BH5 players is costly to the team. They are worth the same amount of points, but they are the vanguard of the team. Without them, that team is at a disadvantage.
It is 100% snowball-y, though. I would argue that is by design. Itās not the mechanicās fault that players refuse to learn BH is what wins matches /j. A team stacked with BH stomping you (general) isnāt unfairāit just means they played the game better than your team.
A team stacked with BH stomping you (general) isnāt unfairāit just means they played the game better than your team.
Not always. It often just means they had better node spawns and were in better positions to collapse and fight as a team. If a node spawns on top of your face, it's a lot easier to get the group together than if it spawns on the other side of the map, where you're going to lose half your players in transit. Those first few spawns can easily snowball if one team has much lower travel distance than another.
Yeah this is particularly true on seal rock. One team is always cucked out of bh at the beginning. It's not a bad mechanic but some maps are very much not compatible with it.
Yes, the mode has randomness to it! Adapting to that and capitalizing on it is part of good play. The fact that you lost half your players on the way to an enemy-advantage spawn is the bad playāeven if it wasnāt individually your fault and happened because you had an unlucky spawn.
The team mightāve played better if they were luckier, but that doesnāt change the fact they played poorly when they were unlucky. Itās not inherently unfair to get an RNG advantage; itās just a part of the game.
E.g., one strat would be not trying to contest the node in the first place. If itās closer to the other enemiesā bases, chances are those teams are going to be contesting it. The disadvantaged team could use their travel time to set up a pinch where you hit one of them hard, farm BH, and then retreat before they regroup or the surviving team turns on you.
The team mightāve played better if they were luckier, but that doesnāt change the fact they played poorly when they were unlucky. Itās not inherently unfair to get an RNG advantage; itās just a part of the game.
Right, but you're looking at it from a clinical perspective. It's easy to point and go, "oh well they should have just done X instead of Y", but when the game mode is based around throwing 24 people into a pit with minimal communication and just seeing what happens, "just do X" is far too reductive.
Like, obviously the team should just stack tightly, move as a cohesive unit and prioritize bursts onto high value targets one by one... But when organizing that is effectively impossible, the next thing you can do is look at the game mechanics and see if you can tweak the randomness so it's less likely for one team to stumble their way into coordination over another.
I never said it was easy, or ājust do xā tbf. Just that a team who coordinatesāeven if luck was on their side in the beginning which made coordinating easierāplayed better than the team who doesnāt. š¤·āāļø If you get unlucky spawns, you (general) need to play smarter. Thatās the point of strategy. Unfortunately, a large portion of people who play Frontlines donāt actually want to be playing Frontlines.
... Right, except my point is that saying that doesn't mean anything, because the game mode will never see players come together and strategize at a high level.
Like, your premise is that BH as a mechanic isn't unfair, it just means the other team "played better". I've pointed out - and you've agreed - that "played better" in Frontlines largely comes down to RNG, regardless of what the clinical, outside-perspective version of "played better" might be. That version doesn't exist in the actual game that we play.
Ergo, BH, in most cases, comes down to RNG. Which, given how oppressive BH is to play against, I think many people will say is unfair. You're free to say "well that's not the fault of the mechanic", but that's a very airy, arguing-for-the-sake-of-arguing, guns-don't-kill-people-people-kill-people response. If the mechanic is oppressive, largely won by RNG, and there's very little chance of a team executing the type of coordination needed to address it, then the mechanic itself should be addressed, whether it's its "fault" or not.
No, I donāt and havenāt agreed that āplayed betterā largely comes down to RNG. In fact, that is antithetical to everything Iāve said. BH is not won by RNG, and the team that plays better in the circumstances of the match will generate BH. Thatās what playing better is. You take the variable situations of the game and adjust your strategy to win. You can get absolutely shit spawns, still generate BH, and still win the match. Hell, you can even get personal BHV regardless of how well your team is performing. Itās not at all hard to do. The reality is just that most people are bad at casual PVP, and thatās okay. BH snowballs and even bad players can get BH and help win games.
And it is not that deep. It is just casual side content in a video game. Absolutely no reason to be bringing in dramatic guns-donāt-kill-people argument comparisons.
Edit: I know you went with the last word + block reddit pvp strat, but if you do happen to see this, then genuinely, maybe reconsider picking fights with people because they donāt agree with you about whether an optional video game mechanic is fun and balanced or not. Especially not if youāre gonna devolve into toxic behavior when they unsurprisingly continue to not agree with your personal opinion.
Edit: You weren't blocked so I could get the "last word". I just don't want to ever waste my time speaking with you again when you move goalposts and use thought terminating cliches when you encounter pushback.
Just that a team who coordinatesāeven if luck was on their side in the beginning which made coordinating easierāplayed better than the team who doesnāt.
No, I donāt and havenāt agreed that āplayed betterā largely comes down to RNG.
You deny your own words, and I just don't have time to waste on people who can't even keep their own narratives straight. "ok" = you go on believing whatever you want to believe. Take care.
The fact that BH5 gives you increased damage and increased survivability is so silly. There should never be a situation where someone can walk away from a 1v5, however disorganized the 5 players.
It should be noted things can snowball in favor of the losing team too. BH5 players are not invincible. Sure they heal more but don't actually have more raw defense. You'd be surprised how a well timed status effect makes a cocky bh5 lose against 'weaker' teams. They already have a big target on their heads.
The only change i want to see with BH5 is that it stops healing for more. I dont mind doing more damage but healing is the real sticking point to me that makes it really hard to come back from.
It is intended to snowball because it's the counterweight to node spawn RNG. Without it every game would be decided by the final node spawn coinflip, but BH enables the strongest team to fight their way through a disadvantageous situation, which is necessary in a PVP game mode.
BH enables the strongest team to fight their way through a disadvantageous situation, which is necessary in a PVP game mode.
Except the team with BH is almost never disadvantaged. They will take that node, it's not a question. If people are running in from spawn, they cannot have any appreciable BH, and rolling over them is a non-issue.
Its funny, in like every other pvp game with objectives, the advice of "Focus on objectives, kills are good but don't focus solely on them" is generally good advice, but in frontlines objectives are set dressing and you just want to murder people better than other people.
I'm pretty sure that frontline objectives/nodes are literally just there to give players an excuse to congregate at certain points rather than wander aimlessly around the map.
as a Frontlines Enjoyerā¢ I can confirm that 19 times out of 20 this is the way to win. I'll remind my team at the beginning of a match that "yes, violence is in fact the answer" because most of the time it is.
dogshit spawns? go out and find people... then kill them. Other teams are focused on points? go out and kill them.
mosh pit around an S-rank? kill them all. Two teams fighting? get behind one of the teams and kill them.
that cocky MNK or GNB that chases you all the way back to your team ball/zerg? kill them. Astros exist in any form? kill them. PLD/DRK throws an invuln? Count to 10, THEN kill them. SAM jumping into the fray? don't kill him!! wait till they LB... THEN kill them. That NIN doing the weeb run thinking they're hot shit? kill them.
confused/lost players wandering by themselves? kill them. Winning team? Kill them. "But spawncamping is mean?" yes it is but they deserve to lose. Kill them.
it's almost cinema how often this works for better or for worse. I've lost to and been the team that got 400 points from capturing nodes and got 1300 points from enemy kills. the 1100 points the node-capturing team gets won't mean much if they lose 800 points to getting killed.
TLDR: nodes/flags in PVP are basically just excuses to try and draw players together so they can fight. Take advantage of this as much as you can, and ape together stronk.
The chaos of pve mechanics in large scale pvp is why new secure is my favorite map as a pvp main. That being said, my opinion is very unpopular amongst pvp regulars (based on queue pops and pvp discords) and newest pvp map didn't move in that direction, so idk if SE plans to do that again.
"let them fight" works if it's Seal Rock and you've got 600 points and then get 2-3 A or S ranks in your spawn area. but otherwise, that's just a death warrant.
Just beware that when learning frontline PvP there are basically 2 versions.
The meta one: Characterized by a heavy focus on bursting and avoiding sustained fights, and relying on specific classes and teams comps.
The normal/casual one: Where sustained fights happen a lot and you need to deal with a mostly uncoordinated team. More weight on solo play.
Depends on your DC and time of play, but the latter is the one you mostly end up in and I suggest learning first.
The former is next for when you end up in a team aware of the meta (And are also interested enough in FL to begin with), you can easily distinguish them once you have the knowledge.Ā
That said a lot of the basics stay the same and commanding is valuable in both instancesĀ
I don't like battle high because of the snowball effect. Makes it feel less like bothering once you are at a significant disadvantage because comebacks become very unlikelyĀ
And without battle high, people will just sit on the nodes closest to them and never engage in pvp. That is how shatter initially came to be after the map rework in EW. I forgot what they changed later to facilitate engagement. It's also why current shatter is so bad, teams rarely try to enter the cave on your team so a majority of the time is spent breaking your own big ice instead of fighting.
Yeah, unless you only miss like less than 50 points to the objective and got several node secured, that's a bad call.
But the fighting whatever the situation might also be a bad idea. I'm gonna get downvoted to oblivion for saying that, but it depends of the situation, you have to read the current run, something people are really bad at in this game.
When you're third place, got stomped every time you tried to fight even at the begining of the game, going to feed one of the team in front of you while you let the second one take all the nodes points, it's stupid, it's just assuring your third place. In those situations, letting them fight kinda is not abad call, hoping they'll make the mistake to ignore you long enough to steal points.
But in even in that case, you'll have people to say it's stupid because "they already won ignoring the node with other team". Yeah, that's true, but your current team retreated from the first engagement and only got points when the other started to ignore you, so that's not gonna happen this time. Yet you'll still have people complaining because the team was too passive and how they would have won if they pushed more. That's as delusionnal.
Once the others teams already got battle high, it's dead, avoid fighting and playing it smart might be a good choice.
I really wish they added a 100% pvp mode without pve element, so those there for actual pvp would have a mode to play. Current modes are a mix of both, and on both side, there are people wanting to ignore half of the equation.
To this day, 7 years later. I remember some rando having a complete meltdown in chat cause group B (my group) wasn't following his calls, stayed as a group of 8, waltzed in and combined killed over 100 people and we won the game by almost 650 points. At the end the guy who was leading Group B just went "Go be a passive bitch somewhere else" He had 0 kills, 0 assists, and like 10 deaths.
Sat there the whole game complaining that he's been in over a thousand games. Meanwhile my group backpacked the other 16. We had the equivalent of 2 S Nodes in points just from battles. I'll never forget that. Even the healer in that group had Battle Fever 5
bro plays over 1000 games and then goes 0-10-0 KDA? that's a really weird way of saying he sucks at the game. It's like when you get a shitty lethargic player in a dungeon who "brags" about having played the game for 13 years or something. It's like, okay, why did you think that admitting you've sucked ass for over a decade was a flex?
I honestly gave up on crystal FL. Every triumph game was the exact same. 99% getting the team that would get bodied from start to finish. Middle team doesn't even challenge the leading team. Idk why people are incentivized to "not wanna be last place" over trying to turn the tables on the winning team. Aether feels alot more engaging regardless if u win or lose
You do have to choose engagements well, though. A pinch is good, throwing yourself blindly at enemies gets you pinched instead. The second mouse gets the cheese.
This is why you should never completely disengage from combat, BH is too important. Always be in conflict to be in control and avoid sandwiches. If you have the most points you WILL be attacked.
Nearly all of my games have been like this lately. Sometimes I end up at the top of the chart for damage, kills or assists, or at least in the top five to ten players - and usually it'll just be me, maybe one other, while the other two teams or just one team hog the board.Ā
Accumulating BH and node positioning need to go hand in hand. You should never just be letting two enemy teams farm BH uncontested for 1/3rd of the game. Otherwise you will, most of the time, lose. I wish I had a good copy pasta for some matches that people will actually follow.Ā
Healers who have one heal on their bar but ignore all of their damage dealing capacity are anathema to this game mode.Ā
If you're forced to retreat, the enemy will often give up the chase to run for a new node - you can pick off a heap of stragglers when this happens.Ā
It largely comes down to people just farming series awards who don't really care about the game mode. I do it for fun. Maybe I'm weird?Ā
100% Seal Rock when playing Adders. If they get a cave point and then one spawns closer to the water on the east side no one ever commits to going out thrre. Then you've got players from both teams with battle highs bullying the yellows
Lmao yes?Ā
As an adder your options are: get behind red or get behind blue. If they're fighting on the east side of the map you're definitely crossing something to get thereĀ
Lmao, every time. I see my team gets nodes spawn near the spawn and I can already tell we're fucked. My team sits and defends with the other two teams battle it out.
Had someone deadass say yesterday that "you can win by capping nodes it's proven on Reddit"
Like yeah you can get lucky and win like 5% of games doing that but that's a 95% loss rate. Anything to avoid admitting you're anchoring your team I guess.
I'll never forget the sassy reply "they're called OBJECTIVES" by the shot caller. We lost btw. We couldn't do an objective anymore in the last half because the two teams easily mow us down on the nodes.
Literally happened to me about a week ago. My team was down by nearly 800 points compared to the other two teams, and then we claimed 2 yellow nodes and a red, then went on to win.
Me, living like Jon Snow with a wall of an opposing team coming at me and realizing way too late that my other team mates have all fallen back and scattered to various nodes š
done this too often as a squishy MCH. my hubris will be my end
It's the only way to play as MCH, you step forward to use the shotty and bioflamer and the rest of your team takes ten steps back.
When I have 2-3k ping no less.
I plead with people almost every game to not do immediate 180s and sprint to things like big ice or ovoos that haven't even activated yet, because they always leave a tail of 3-5 players that are trying to actually fight, who just get obliterated for daring to try.
I've had exactly 0 success.
Welcome to Frontlines, where the rules are made up and the points don't matter.
Most people are there for the daily roulette.
Battle High? 98% of them are lucky to see BH1 before getting totally obliterated by a dude they can only hope to tickle so they're not even going to bother trying.
I could probably be doing something more useful than sneaking this enemy crystal like Iām playing Metal Gear, but hey, look, I peeled the enemy team!
The ENTIRE teamā¦
Happens to me a lot. Here we are winning a push, decimating an enemy then I realised everyone fled to chase the B rank node that just spawned
I always dive with my teammates right behind me only to find out as I get massively overwhelmed that they've already peeled off for a node somewhere else. Also whenever I try to get away it's like I'm running in a dream, but if I'm chasing someone down they become Usain Bolt.
Bruh I felt that last part so much! Haha, I get stun locked into oblivion and meanwhile my dash seems to be like a few steps behind the opponentās dash when Iām trying to catch someone š
Badders.
Failstorm.
Immortal Lames.
the bladders
the midstrom
the mortal flames
Mortal lames
Immoral was right there.
Even though the game is random, Adders getting beaten kinda feels accurate
Last vestiges of the old "Curse of The Adders", from when PVP queues were actually tied to your GC affiliation.
When Onsal was new every career PvP player switched to Adders on Light and farmed matches for 2 weeks streight for the mount.
After that they changed Frontlines to Freelancer only mode. But people hated Adders so much for those 2 weeks they got attacked on sight for another 2 months after.
I love community lores like this. This was an incredibly funny read, thank you.
I remember when Seal Rock was new. Being in Adders, I had to contend with premades in Flames or Mael. There's always a DPS or two with a bunch of pocket healers.
Whenever I play Frontlines, Adders seemingly always gets last place. Like a disproportionate amount of the time.Ā I wouldn't mind so much if it weren't for the fact that I also get put on Adders almost every match! I do just fine whenever I'm onĀ Flames and Maelstrom too, so at this point I'm just convinced the snakes are cursed.
I really wish theyād add a deathmatch map to the rotation. No nodes, no ice, no flags, just a pure PvP match that may help some players learn the fundamentals of this kind of content. At the very least we would get a brief break from the ālet them fightā crowd.
The biggest problem is the way nodes work. Rotating spawns and they despawn after some time. Make it like 2-5 permanent nodes and thatās it. Force everyone to pvp on the flag.
Seal rock.
Can confirm seal rock is the death match map. Happened yesterday, both teams swarmed our side near spawn point and it was a blood bath. I open map to see hardly anyone capturing points and our team won out of mostly kill points than node points.
The other 2 teams would go at it too and we would pinch either one each time. The game went on until like 2-3 minutes left.
That's just Onsal anytime there's an A/S rank ovoo at the centermost point.
This. People don't seem to understand that mid node is not about the node itself - it's about using the opportunity for an all-out brawl to farm battle highs.
On nights when regular frontline PVPers do Onsal, I've seen people tell off their own team for capping the node in mid cuz it essentially signaled the end of the brawl.
That's cc. I mean that does have the push the payload part but is a lot more unavoidable fighting
CC doesn't have battle high. People mistake earning points in frontlines as being the only thing you need to do and focus on playing the game as pve clicking on points and avoiding combat.Ā
Battle high like the meme is suggesting is super important and the actual way to win. Get your battle high and you'll snowball past the guys in first place and they'll have a very hard time being able to catch up again.Ā
The closest cc has to that is the constantly longer timer for dying
Also CC lacks the chaos of dealing with a 24v24v24, where you're dealing with massive amount of people slinging CCs/dmg/lbs around, spinning your camera around for flank attacks because the 3rd team disappeared on your mini-map, while hunting down that BH5 lalafellin DRK and their suicidal DNC friend with a meteodrive and the power of spite.
A pure deathmatch mode with BH would be kinda wack though? Whoever wins the first team fight wins the game
I don't think that would be as fun or as educational as you're thinking. Frontline is as much about choosing your battles as it is about battling. Watching your map and sticking together are more important than just outright bravery and battle skill, and you can only practice those things when there are multiple objectives and enemy locations at a time.
They used to have a mode called Slaughter which was close to this. There was still PvE that spawned periodically in the middle of the map that you could kill for extra points, but for the most part you were killing other people.
I want to see a Battle Royale mode, in the same vein as the novel Battle Royale.
Cycle the maps hourly with outdoor expansion areas from HW to current to justify their huge size.
The worst is when you have these people shouting orders to fall back in chat, and they end up with 0/2/1 stats and 50k damage done. Some people are really mistaken on how to win in frontlines and dont understand the value of battle highs and snowballing.
Counterpoint: way MORE people just chase what's in front of them and don't realize the entire game mode is about positioning.
People think an early lead that fumbles is because of anything BUT the fact that it just means you ignored fights to get points... which means no BH
Sometimes you do everything right, your team fights and keeps fighting to keep that lead, then both other teams gang up on your team and you wind up in last.
1v1v1 is stupid.
can confirm. Good positioning can protect you and your team from a lot of things, but when two teams decide to aggressively spawncamp the third team, there's kind of just no way out. I won a game like that once; red was around 1325/1400 and the other two teams were around 800-900 or so. both teams spawncamped red on either side so hard that they ended up in 3rd with the final scores being something like 1115/1327/1400.
and I've unfortunately been on the receiving end of that, and when you're that outnumbered, there's really nothing you can do.
If both teams gang up on your team and you wind up in last, it means your team has skill issue. The final decisive factor is player's skill in team fights, as is always for a PvP mode. No matter how many things you did right, there's always someone who did it better and did things you might have missed (a really eye opening experience for me when I end up discovering them).
I've been on teams where both teams decide to gang up on my team... and my team continued winning. It was actually kind of refreshing to see everyone ignoring nodes and killing everyone who decided to rotate into us before grouping up and capturing those nodes. Everyone ended up with BH5 at the end of the game and the score difference was over 700-800 from first place and second/third place.
I've been on fights where the "team" fought and it just resulted in half the group afk standing behind in a fight and the other half dying because they end up getting outnumbered and outmatched.
That's adorable, but frontline is a 24v24v24 mode. The final decisive factor in mass PvP is which side outnumbers the other.
I'm guess they don't realize the premade they enter with is doing a lot of the heavy lifting. Ain't much you can do against 48 other players. BH5 ain't saving you from that. Maybe your whole team being BH4-5 and the hostile 48 barely managing a BH2 average?
But like, 50% extra damage and healing is nothing to scoff at. "BUT SKILL!" Yeah, sure. I managed BH5 once. I was pretty unstoppable for a good while there and all I did was get lucky with the killing blow on a group of people. Didn't exactly "git gud," I just had a huge statistical buff advantage so my damage wasn't garbage and my healing actually undid any damage I did suffer. The action efficiency of BH5 is absurd.
...And it was exactly after that point I stopped caring about taking Frontline seriously for my daily roulette. BH was the only thing that mattered. Pressing your buttons better isn't going to matter against someone (or more likely, someoneS) that have BH4-5 while you and your team might be sitting pretty at maybe BH2.
Sorry I'm a solo Frontline player with consistent winrate, so my understanding of the game mode probably differs a lot from yours since numbers disadvantage doesn't hamper my ability to win... Regarding solo, it's doable for solo players to win if you do everything you need to do right with enough skill, but it can be tedious if you want to chase guaranteed wins as a solo player because it stops feeling like a casual game if you're optimizing that much.
People underestimate how easy it is to win from skill levels alone but it's more of an iceberg situation when they hear "skill level". There's a big difference in depth and breadth of understanding the nuances of the game mode. When I say skill level, it doesn't stop at the job or knowing the mechanics. It also encapsulates the understanding of terrain (map, quirks/gimmicks/timing), the movement of where players and teams will go, how to move between various objectives (not just map related), draw aggro, reduce/lose aggro, ambush, reset enemy BH/scores, etc. Most of these concepts are topics people don't actively think about or know how to optimize into their gameplay and on the fly on a moment to moment basis because.. it's a casual game mode.
Ranked Crystalline Conflict has generally higher skill level because people use a limited set of these concepts more actively on an even-playing field to create openings, but that game mode doesn't use nearly as many naunced concepts as Frontlines does because the scale and players is smaller. That doesn't mean there's more disadvantages in Frontlines. The general players queueing into Frontlines and ranked players doesn't know how to utilize them either because there's a lot more different decision-making involved. It opens up a huge knowledge gap if you can take advantage of it.
A better anology with this situation is that a player with a good job rotation and understanding of basic casual mechanics doesn't go into savage fights/deep dungeon and think they're going to win just because they understand their job mechanics. That's the bare minimum requirement, but the misconception is that people treat the bare minimum requirement as if it's the skill ceiling and then wonder why they're not winning.
There's also understanding how to best communicate with the team and skills related to how to play around a weaker team fighting a stronger one. Frontline has many approaches to winning, but to get the best outcome, you need to do both really well. That's because there's many situations where your team's skill is weaker overall, but it doesn't result in a loss because 90% of players don't make nearly as many good decisions as they usually think they do either, creating plenty of gaps in every team I've encountered so far in Frontlines. You can reduce the gap of bad players to a certain point by using your own skill to create a "guideline" (knowing how to communicate that quick, effectively, and without being offensive is another skill in itself...), but it wouldn't help much if your own personal skill doesn't greatly exceed the general playerbase due to a limited understanding of both depth and breadth of the game mode.
That's why there was a history of complaints about a couple of premades dominating Frontlines (but in reality they weren't really hard to beat either because they usually are just a bit better than general players in Frontlines). Most people just don't bother to figure out or do all of that because it's a casual game mode and there isn't rewards tied to chasing wins after a certain point. People play this game mode for fun and usually doing all of that to win doesn't sound very fun for most players unless they're used to this level of complexity. But the skill level of players is very low, so this kind of thinking isn't necessary unless you want to be winning all the time for whatever reason.
You can do 50k damage with a single Comet cast, then stand around doing literally nothing, and have contributed more to the match than many players trying their best
This is the part that irks me so hard. Seeing people with sub-100k damage, like man you could have run around and only pushed ONE BUTTON THE WHOLE TIME and done better than that.
I told an AST the other day their 53k damage made me sad, and they said "maybe don't abandon your healers?" I'm sorry what, you're a green DPS in PvP, there is no "healer"
the only time falling back is acceptable is if you're outnumbered, or if you see both other teams approaching. Check your map often but don't ever trust it to show you the whole enemy team. what might look like 1 or 2 little enemy triangles is often the entire team coming to delete you 24 different ways from Sunday.
Even "fleeing" from claimed nodes is often not wise unless you've sent enough of the enemy team back to their spawn, because the team that runs usually gets chased. and if you're getting chased... then you best hope you're not the slowest player there.
Frontlines is partially based on morale and BH increase morale and aggression in the opposing team because they know they can dish out more damage than you can, meanwhile seeing a group of BHs snowballing into your team tends to demoralize on the opposite end.
Partially why I am not a fan of large-scale PvP where it's ultimately not skill but morale and aggression tthat decide if you win or lose.
the luck in team composition is just hoping that you have less glue-eaters and toilet seat-lickers on your team than the other teams do. Given the chaos of Frontlines and the overall "herding cats" or "scrambling around like headless chickens" mentality a lot of players have in this mode, never be afraid to use these teammates as meat shields. they're not gonna get BH5 anyways and they'll either learn from their mistakes, or they'll unintentionally provide cover/distraction for the competent players to keep their BH intact and help better guide your team to victory.
I mean, the ability to improve morale is a skill. There's a reason armies had drummers and marches.
Leading is also a skill. The skills needed for large scale PVP are different than smaller scale PVP. Too many people find their small scale PVP skills ineffective and think there's nothing they can do and just give it up to RNG.
Nah, skill definitely matters. A well timed limit break or even just debuff can lead to many Kos/assists not only scoring many points, but also giving your entire team more BH. A skilled healer can save people from otherwise lethal situations. A single tank can make entire teams waste their resources on them....
Even when losing, using not being targeted to sandwich the BH5 party can turn the tide rather quickly. Knowing how and when to be aggressive is important.
People underestimate how much a single person can do even in a battle royal style game. Also leading is a skill too.
I hate it so much when my team is passive.
Isn't that why you should queue PvP to, og I dunno, FIGHT?! I always call out when people say "let them fight." Always go for a pinch when you can, just dont pinch the team that is 0/700 because you will just get them to play Kingmakers for the other team.
I queue into pvp because they lock stuff i am interested in behind trophy crystals. I'm not really interested in try harding it. I'll throw some arrows and shit but like I'm not going through the effort of practicing.
I mean, there's a difference between try harding and just engaging with the mode at all. Just try a little bit.
I do try a little bit. I follow the pack and I try to kill low health players with bards finisher. When we are about to push I LB.Ā
Then you are doing great and, honestly, better than most players.
I didn't say I was delibritly awful just not willing to put in the same effort in as say raidingĀ
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Then don't engage with it? PVP is a choice. You aren't the person above, so I don't know if you have the same desires as them.
In which case, try CC instead if you want trophy crystals and don't like big battles.
You can say that for almost any content.
While true pvp is the only one you don't have to "beat" to get what you want so sandbagging occurs. I can't savage raid. I know it's not in the cards for me with my bug man work schedule. So I don't even worry about savage drops. Trophy crystals, however. Edit: mfs can down vote all you want this is simply something that happens regardless if I do it.
The point is to win. And yes sometimes that means playing it safe.
This is mostly not true in FL. If you let the other teams slug it out while you're passive they will build BH against each other.
When they inevitably crash into your team you're now at a huge disadvantage.
Inflating your score early without building BH is asking both teams to 2v1 you with Battle High.
Yes, ignore the node. Fight and pinch the currently winning team to cut their lead and build yours for the mid to late game fights
No if your score is 1250/1400 and you're holding 2 a rank while the other 2 are slugging it out for an s don't give them a reason to fight you
Which is why I said this is mostly not true and explained the situation. At the same time if you don't push out and both teams decide to 2v1 you, you're gonna get slammed. Instead you can intercept one of the teams and get kills to finish the game or try to keep them fighting each other with good positioning.
No fight and get the node. I've seen more FL lost due to the team going into "PvP to the exception of all else" mode meanwhile the third team is capturing points literally 3 feet from our spawn.
It's really not that hard to understand you capture as many objectives as possible, go PvP until the nodes cycle out, open map, go capture any high priority nodes your team can get to before the others, then go pvp.
It's the most frustrating thing on the planet when a gold ovoo/point spawns in my teams "territory" and we lose it to a back door squad cause the entire team is literally on the other side of the map pointlessly bogged down in forever PvP near an enemy spawn
See the above picture why passivity is why you lose.
BH is how you win. Matches won by passive plays for points are very rare. Cause the moment the enemy sees you're in the lead you will get rolled and farmed.
Yeah yeah I saw. But I disagree with you on the point being āto fightā when the point is āto winā and while I know about BH and while I dislike it as a mechanic, I always encourage people to play objectives rather than sit and grind in the trenches.
BH is not a guaranteed win condition.
Itās not a guaranteed win condition due to the other teams possibly having BH of their own. Not having it is, however, a near-guaranteed lose condition.
Playing objectives to win is important, but itās important in the second half of the match when you have BH. (E.g. your alliance is stacked with BH and in the lead, thereās no point to tunnel vision fighting other teams if you can defend and win.) Both āyou have to fightā and āyou have to be on objectivesā are true statements, but the reason Frontlines is hard (/h) is because good play involves knowing when one is more important than the other based upon the individual circumstances of the match at playāand then getting the gaggle of people who donāt to follow. (That being said, sometimes the āwrongā call is actually the right one or vice versa, depending on if your team is following it or not.)
TLDR donāt be that guy five minutes into a match going āguess itās over, thanks guysā because you have a major loss lead due to not playing objectivesāthe BH you get in the first ten means you can stomp objectives in the last ten
A-fucking-men!
I'm so tired of people singlemindedly proclaiming there is one way to do things, when the whole pvp is about adapting yourself to the current situation. at any moment.
I mean what you are describing is hope pvp, hoping that your enemies are stupid and just ignore you while you play the objectives. And sometimes they are and you will win. But it is objectively a poor strategy, because if your opponent has eyes, then youāre going to lose.
The new map has the perfect example of this. You can hope all you want and if a single 5 pointer shows up and your team is the one without BH, you're not winning that super critical pointĀ
BH facilitates wins. It isnt a win condition, thats true, but it significantly helps you gain or maintain your win condition.
If you have a bunch of people with BH 5 late game, you can just steamroll over teams who don't and capture points to clutch out the win.
I think youre completely wrong but agree to disagree I guess.
Being passive in a 1v1v1 is not safe.
If you are in the lead, you are now the richest source of points. If you are defending multiple nodes, your forces are spread out.
Being passive is banking on the other two teams being blitheringly stupid, incapable of reading the leaderboard, and or have an unreasonable fixation on killing each other and fighting for third place.
Admittedly, every so often the other teams ARE this stupid, and you win.
But it's tactically playing Russian Roulette to bank on it. Playing defensively will guarantee you are at best facing 2v1 odds, and if you have multiple nodes chances are the odds will be worse on multiple fronts. PvP in this game is not designed around defensive play, so you will be at a disadvantage. And since you are ripe and juicy and full of points, just driving you off the nodes won't be enough, they will need to pop you like pinatas for the prize inside. In my experience this usually leads to a cascade effect, and by the time you regroup, you're in third.
Playing it safe =/= never engaging the opponents. It just means not rushing into a 1v1v1 or into a location you can be pinched from. EVERY FL mode is made significantly easier if your team knows how to engage and get battle high to contest those late-game nodes better.
Is it impossible to win passively? No. In fact, it's happened to me since I got one of those passive teams more than I'd like(though I've only had 2 wins from those types), but it requires the other 2 teams to play like absolute dumbasses.
Yet the the whole thread has already devolved into one that say how being over aggressive is the only solution, and how this is always a bad move, when the first post clearly stated "when you're in the lead".
A lot of XIV pvp players don't care for playing safe. They want people to zerg rush because "pvp is about hitting other". Look a this thread, half of the answer don't have any trace of the nuance you have.
It's because they're the two extremes. One side never wants to engage enemies and just rushes objectives, the other chases the first enemy they see towards their spawn and just feed them points. Sadly they're both the average types of FL player.
No it doesn't
That isnt the main reason I queue/play PvP mode in games. He'll it ain't even the 4 or 5 reason.
I like playing objectives in PvP modes, fighting other players is apart of it, but shouldn't be the SOLE reason for it. SE should reduce the amount of point you get for killing a player. Reduce the amount of points active at anytime, and increase the amount of points you get for getting an objecive.
They should have kept the Feast in the game for bozos like you, who just want to fight other players.
Firstly, its Player vs Player. The whole point is to have fun. I have fun getting into combat and hearing all the assist and KO sounds.
Just because the optimal play style is something you dont like doesnt mean it needs to be changed. If your idea of fun is standing on a point waiting for a bar to fill up more power to you.
Also do you really need to resort to childish insults? You get more points from team wipes than you do capturing points, especially with how many points you make the enemy lose.
Yes it does. Becuase at this point why have objectives on the map? When the winning condition is really what team can get to 50 kills first.
The objectives should be there to attack and defend, and give huge swings in points to where a defending team can win against a team that just deathballs the arena.
The point of the objectives are to get people to move around the map so they can fight in different spots. I.e something spawned near an enemy base. You and the other team sandwich them.
The new objective spawns and its now near your spawn. Now youre the one on the defensive trying to push back both teams.
Objectives move players around the map to fight on different spots.
I dont think you fully understand the design philosophy behind Frontlines.
Frontlines is a 'King-of-the-Hill' player vs. player gamemode. The problem it's it current iteration is that too many spawn objectives on the map at the same time. And they are not worth enough points to bother capture.
There should only ever be one 'Square' objective and one 'Triangle' objective active on the map at any given time. The scarcity of objectives would force more movement of the players and less passive standing on objectives.
mfw playing Players VS Players implies fighting other players
Are you stupid? I wasnt complaining about PvP I was complaining about the fact the playing the objectives on the map do not matter enough for my tastes.
With how Frontlines is right now the objectives don't matter. It's practically just what teams can get to 50 kills first.
How dare Square make me fight other people in my Player vs Player gamemode
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You keep insulting people who disagree with you. You need to stop.
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Oh the irony
Hoping you can improve upon yourself in the future. Good luck buddy
Battle High, I think, is bit too snowbally of a mechanic. I like its intention though. But what I think would be nice to have is a bit of a double-edged sword. That player with BH5 dying would be costly to the team and in turn a strategic engagement that wipes BH5'd team could turn matches around quickly.
Beyond that, I do agree that sitting passively and getting nodes is wrong way to go about it. I do dislike it when my team gets more nodes on our side of the map at first. It paints a massive target on the team's back and very few teams, even well coordinated, can deal with two teams stacking to pummel the third one down.
I mean, tbf killing BH5 players is costly to the team. They are worth the same amount of points, but they are the vanguard of the team. Without them, that team is at a disadvantage.
It is 100% snowball-y, though. I would argue that is by design. Itās not the mechanicās fault that players refuse to learn BH is what wins matches /j. A team stacked with BH stomping you (general) isnāt unfairāit just means they played the game better than your team.
Not always. It often just means they had better node spawns and were in better positions to collapse and fight as a team. If a node spawns on top of your face, it's a lot easier to get the group together than if it spawns on the other side of the map, where you're going to lose half your players in transit. Those first few spawns can easily snowball if one team has much lower travel distance than another.
Yeah this is particularly true on seal rock. One team is always cucked out of bh at the beginning. It's not a bad mechanic but some maps are very much not compatible with it.
Yes, the mode has randomness to it! Adapting to that and capitalizing on it is part of good play. The fact that you lost half your players on the way to an enemy-advantage spawn is the bad playāeven if it wasnāt individually your fault and happened because you had an unlucky spawn.
The team mightāve played better if they were luckier, but that doesnāt change the fact they played poorly when they were unlucky. Itās not inherently unfair to get an RNG advantage; itās just a part of the game.
E.g., one strat would be not trying to contest the node in the first place. If itās closer to the other enemiesā bases, chances are those teams are going to be contesting it. The disadvantaged team could use their travel time to set up a pinch where you hit one of them hard, farm BH, and then retreat before they regroup or the surviving team turns on you.
Right, but you're looking at it from a clinical perspective. It's easy to point and go, "oh well they should have just done X instead of Y", but when the game mode is based around throwing 24 people into a pit with minimal communication and just seeing what happens, "just do X" is far too reductive.
Like, obviously the team should just stack tightly, move as a cohesive unit and prioritize bursts onto high value targets one by one... But when organizing that is effectively impossible, the next thing you can do is look at the game mechanics and see if you can tweak the randomness so it's less likely for one team to stumble their way into coordination over another.
I never said it was easy, or ājust do xā tbf. Just that a team who coordinatesāeven if luck was on their side in the beginning which made coordinating easierāplayed better than the team who doesnāt. š¤·āāļø If you get unlucky spawns, you (general) need to play smarter. Thatās the point of strategy. Unfortunately, a large portion of people who play Frontlines donāt actually want to be playing Frontlines.
... Right, except my point is that saying that doesn't mean anything, because the game mode will never see players come together and strategize at a high level.
Like, your premise is that BH as a mechanic isn't unfair, it just means the other team "played better". I've pointed out - and you've agreed - that "played better" in Frontlines largely comes down to RNG, regardless of what the clinical, outside-perspective version of "played better" might be. That version doesn't exist in the actual game that we play.
Ergo, BH, in most cases, comes down to RNG. Which, given how oppressive BH is to play against, I think many people will say is unfair. You're free to say "well that's not the fault of the mechanic", but that's a very airy, arguing-for-the-sake-of-arguing, guns-don't-kill-people-people-kill-people response. If the mechanic is oppressive, largely won by RNG, and there's very little chance of a team executing the type of coordination needed to address it, then the mechanic itself should be addressed, whether it's its "fault" or not.
No, I donāt and havenāt agreed that āplayed betterā largely comes down to RNG. In fact, that is antithetical to everything Iāve said. BH is not won by RNG, and the team that plays better in the circumstances of the match will generate BH. Thatās what playing better is. You take the variable situations of the game and adjust your strategy to win. You can get absolutely shit spawns, still generate BH, and still win the match. Hell, you can even get personal BHV regardless of how well your team is performing. Itās not at all hard to do. The reality is just that most people are bad at casual PVP, and thatās okay. BH snowballs and even bad players can get BH and help win games.
And it is not that deep. It is just casual side content in a video game. Absolutely no reason to be bringing in dramatic guns-donāt-kill-people argument comparisons.
Edit: I know you went with the last word + block reddit pvp strat, but if you do happen to see this, then genuinely, maybe reconsider picking fights with people because they donāt agree with you about whether an optional video game mechanic is fun and balanced or not. Especially not if youāre gonna devolve into toxic behavior when they unsurprisingly continue to not agree with your personal opinion.
ok.
Edit: You weren't blocked so I could get the "last word". I just don't want to ever waste my time speaking with you again when you move goalposts and use thought terminating cliches when you encounter pushback.
You deny your own words, and I just don't have time to waste on people who can't even keep their own narratives straight. "ok" = you go on believing whatever you want to believe. Take care.
The fact that BH5 gives you increased damage and increased survivability is so silly. There should never be a situation where someone can walk away from a 1v5, however disorganized the 5 players.
It should be noted things can snowball in favor of the losing team too. BH5 players are not invincible. Sure they heal more but don't actually have more raw defense. You'd be surprised how a well timed status effect makes a cocky bh5 lose against 'weaker' teams. They already have a big target on their heads.
The only change i want to see with BH5 is that it stops healing for more. I dont mind doing more damage but healing is the real sticking point to me that makes it really hard to come back from.
It is intended to snowball because it's the counterweight to node spawn RNG. Without it every game would be decided by the final node spawn coinflip, but BH enables the strongest team to fight their way through a disadvantageous situation, which is necessary in a PVP game mode.
Except the team with BH is almost never disadvantaged. They will take that node, it's not a question. If people are running in from spawn, they cannot have any appreciable BH, and rolling over them is a non-issue.
Its funny, in like every other pvp game with objectives, the advice of "Focus on objectives, kills are good but don't focus solely on them" is generally good advice, but in frontlines objectives are set dressing and you just want to murder people better than other people.
I'm pretty sure that frontline objectives/nodes are literally just there to give players an excuse to congregate at certain points rather than wander aimlessly around the map.
as a Frontlines Enjoyerā¢ I can confirm that 19 times out of 20 this is the way to win. I'll remind my team at the beginning of a match that "yes, violence is in fact the answer" because most of the time it is.
dogshit spawns? go out and find people... then kill them. Other teams are focused on points? go out and kill them.
mosh pit around an S-rank? kill them all. Two teams fighting? get behind one of the teams and kill them.
that cocky MNK or GNB that chases you all the way back to your team ball/zerg? kill them. Astros exist in any form? kill them. PLD/DRK throws an invuln? Count to 10, THEN kill them. SAM jumping into the fray? don't kill him!! wait till they LB... THEN kill them. That NIN doing the weeb run thinking they're hot shit? kill them.
confused/lost players wandering by themselves? kill them. Winning team? Kill them. "But spawncamping is mean?" yes it is but they deserve to lose. Kill them.
it's almost cinema how often this works for better or for worse. I've lost to and been the team that got 400 points from capturing nodes and got 1300 points from enemy kills. the 1100 points the node-capturing team gets won't mean much if they lose 800 points to getting killed.
TLDR: nodes/flags in PVP are basically just excuses to try and draw players together so they can fight. Take advantage of this as much as you can, and ape together stronk.
Honestly it would be kinda nice if Frontlines had multiple game modes for each map like an FPS:
Maybe even some goofy ones that are only active on weekends:
Acceleration bomb would be so funny in PVP. I want it.
The chaos of pve mechanics in large scale pvp is why new secure is my favorite map as a pvp main. That being said, my opinion is very unpopular amongst pvp regulars (based on queue pops and pvp discords) and newest pvp map didn't move in that direction, so idk if SE plans to do that again.
"Let them fight" is the one strat that ensures loss... unless you have a big lead already of course.
"let them fight" works if it's Seal Rock and you've got 600 points and then get 2-3 A or S ranks in your spawn area. but otherwise, that's just a death warrant.
That is what I would consider a big lead.
I have no.idea how to even do pvp...I'm a sprout who hit duty finder and I just get instakilled
https://oliguide.carrd.co/#
Just beware that when learning frontline PvP there are basically 2 versions.
The meta one: Characterized by a heavy focus on bursting and avoiding sustained fights, and relying on specific classes and teams comps.
The normal/casual one: Where sustained fights happen a lot and you need to deal with a mostly uncoordinated team. More weight on solo play.
Depends on your DC and time of play, but the latter is the one you mostly end up in and I suggest learning first.
The former is next for when you end up in a team aware of the meta (And are also interested enough in FL to begin with), you can easily distinguish them once you have the knowledge.Ā
That said a lot of the basics stay the same and commanding is valuable in both instancesĀ
Never liked battle high because of this. Game mode lures the general public into thinking mode capturing is the best way to win.
I don't like battle high because of the snowball effect. Makes it feel less like bothering once you are at a significant disadvantage because comebacks become very unlikelyĀ
And without battle high, people will just sit on the nodes closest to them and never engage in pvp. That is how shatter initially came to be after the map rework in EW. I forgot what they changed later to facilitate engagement. It's also why current shatter is so bad, teams rarely try to enter the cave on your team so a majority of the time is spent breaking your own big ice instead of fighting.
Me only playing PvP for glams š«¢
Yeah, unless you only miss like less than 50 points to the objective and got several node secured, that's a bad call.
But the fighting whatever the situation might also be a bad idea. I'm gonna get downvoted to oblivion for saying that, but it depends of the situation, you have to read the current run, something people are really bad at in this game.
When you're third place, got stomped every time you tried to fight even at the begining of the game, going to feed one of the team in front of you while you let the second one take all the nodes points, it's stupid, it's just assuring your third place. In those situations, letting them fight kinda is not abad call, hoping they'll make the mistake to ignore you long enough to steal points.
But in even in that case, you'll have people to say it's stupid because "they already won ignoring the node with other team". Yeah, that's true, but your current team retreated from the first engagement and only got points when the other started to ignore you, so that's not gonna happen this time. Yet you'll still have people complaining because the team was too passive and how they would have won if they pushed more. That's as delusionnal.
Once the others teams already got battle high, it's dead, avoid fighting and playing it smart might be a good choice.
I really wish they added a 100% pvp mode without pve element, so those there for actual pvp would have a mode to play. Current modes are a mix of both, and on both side, there are people wanting to ignore half of the equation.
I actually did win a game where both teams ignored us (as an Adder too), leaving us with barely any BH/damage done. It rarely happens so it was pretty funny lol
To this day, 7 years later. I remember some rando having a complete meltdown in chat cause group B (my group) wasn't following his calls, stayed as a group of 8, waltzed in and combined killed over 100 people and we won the game by almost 650 points. At the end the guy who was leading Group B just went "Go be a passive bitch somewhere else" He had 0 kills, 0 assists, and like 10 deaths.
Sat there the whole game complaining that he's been in over a thousand games. Meanwhile my group backpacked the other 16. We had the equivalent of 2 S Nodes in points just from battles. I'll never forget that. Even the healer in that group had Battle Fever 5
bro plays over 1000 games and then goes 0-10-0 KDA? that's a really weird way of saying he sucks at the game. It's like when you get a shitty lethargic player in a dungeon who "brags" about having played the game for 13 years or something. It's like, okay, why did you think that admitting you've sucked ass for over a decade was a flex?
I honestly gave up on crystal FL. Every triumph game was the exact same. 99% getting the team that would get bodied from start to finish. Middle team doesn't even challenge the leading team. Idk why people are incentivized to "not wanna be last place" over trying to turn the tables on the winning team. Aether feels alot more engaging regardless if u win or lose
You do have to choose engagements well, though. A pinch is good, throwing yourself blindly at enemies gets you pinched instead. The second mouse gets the cheese.
This is why you should never completely disengage from combat, BH is too important. Always be in conflict to be in control and avoid sandwiches. If you have the most points you WILL be attacked.
Nearly all of my games have been like this lately. Sometimes I end up at the top of the chart for damage, kills or assists, or at least in the top five to ten players - and usually it'll just be me, maybe one other, while the other two teams or just one team hog the board.Ā
Accumulating BH and node positioning need to go hand in hand. You should never just be letting two enemy teams farm BH uncontested for 1/3rd of the game. Otherwise you will, most of the time, lose. I wish I had a good copy pasta for some matches that people will actually follow.Ā
Healers who have one heal on their bar but ignore all of their damage dealing capacity are anathema to this game mode.Ā
If you're forced to retreat, the enemy will often give up the chase to run for a new node - you can pick off a heap of stragglers when this happens.Ā
It largely comes down to people just farming series awards who don't really care about the game mode. I do it for fun. Maybe I'm weird?Ā
Pvp just sucks in this game.
Not true, often it ends up with just blue and red killing each other in this case (well, when I'm not yellow of course).
100% Seal Rock when playing Adders. If they get a cave point and then one spawns closer to the water on the east side no one ever commits to going out thrre. Then you've got players from both teams with battle highs bullying the yellows
Going to the opposite end of the map in seal rock is almost always a terrible plan.
Pinch a team instead.
You need to go to the opposite end of the map to be able to pinch anyoneĀ
Lmao no?
Lmao yes?Ā As an adder your options are: get behind red or get behind blue. If they're fighting on the east side of the map you're definitely crossing something to get thereĀ
I don't think you understand how pinching works if you're going east to the beach from cave spawn.
Good luck in frontlines. You need it.
Blue Button: Take the new node that just popped up near our side on the winning team's third of the map
Red Button: Fight with the second/third-ranked team over a point they have already taken
My entire team: aggressively pushing the red button
Lmao, every time. I see my team gets nodes spawn near the spawn and I can already tell we're fucked. My team sits and defends with the other two teams battle it out.
Had someone deadass say yesterday that "you can win by capping nodes it's proven on Reddit"
Like yeah you can get lucky and win like 5% of games doing that but that's a 95% loss rate. Anything to avoid admitting you're anchoring your team I guess.
You can tell when a PvE-brainlet is trying to lead a group. They'll focus on objectives only and say exactly what the comic says.
Nodes are just lights that attract moths for you to kill en masse.
I'm glad I got my mount and won't have to deal with this shit until the next season.
I'll never forget the sassy reply "they're called OBJECTIVES" by the shot caller. We lost btw. We couldn't do an objective anymore in the last half because the two teams easily mow us down on the nodes.
Literally happened to me about a week ago. My team was down by nearly 800 points compared to the other two teams, and then we claimed 2 yellow nodes and a red, then went on to win.
pvp where you are punished for playing the objective