I understand that brain messes up with signals, and I can understand "basic" tics like twitching or squinting, but why do people meow, say phrases and words? Why does my brain makes me whistle and do finger guns, not just "natural looking" things like twitching my head? Sorry if there's any mistypes or stupidity I'm not fluent in English

  • Tourette's Syndrome patient here.

    The neurochemistry is still a grey area, but imagine it this way:

    I often will blink my eyes, and get a nigh-irresistible compulsion to keep blinking my eyes for a few seconds. I will sometimes just "need" to move my hands in unpredictable ways. That's how tics manifest. I can temporarily suppress them, but they come out eventually.

    Vocalizations are most commonly hummimg noises, occasionally a quiet, open mouth "ah" noise. It's different for different people.

    Coprolalia (uncontrolled swearing) is typically the only symptom Hollywood portrays, but it's usually a symptom exclusive to cases of Tourette's much more severe than what I've got. If someone's demonstrating coprolalia, it's actually the least of their worries.

    I feel like it's sneezing.

    I can suppress a tic sometimes, but I still feel like I need to sneeze and it's going to happen at some point, then there are other time that I can't suppress it.

    I describe it as coughing for the same reasons! It's going to happen eventually, but sometimes I can control it enough that I can at least be less embarrassed by it.

    So I have coughed every winter for like 15+ years. Always from the back of my throat, not my lungs. Never any other symptoms, no reason for the cough, doctors visits negative. Learned this month that turns out tics can be seasonal and it's probably been a tic this whole time! It's a wild revelation to me 😅 but yea, a cough is a great way to describe the sensation. Though sometimes, at least with my eye blinking and nose scrunching tics, I don't even have a build up sensation, it's literally like blinking. I just do it unconsciously.

    My ex described it as feeling like you want to scratch a mosquito bite, sometimes. That he could resist, but it took effort to- so sometimes he would suppress it but at home and other moments, "you just gotta scratch the itch, you want to indulge in the feeling of it being scratched," and let the tic fly free.

    Yes, very good analogy... You can resist it a lot of the time, but it doesn't make the sensation go away... At some point, you're going to scratch the itch.

    Does following through with a tic give a satisfying feeling like a sneeze does? Is every tic satisfying or do they feel neutral?

    "it just is"

    Ita like hiccuping for me.

    Coprolalia is rather rare, but not thàt rare. Still about 15% of the population with Tourette's has this kind of tics. This is usually a symptom in people with more severe tics in general, but that isn't always the case. Coprolalia doesn't necessarily mean you constantly shout out obscenities. It can also mean you sometimes tic an inappropriate word on a normal volume, as well as everything in between.

    I wonder if it's so high because you're more likely to notice it than something like random ah'ing

    I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying correctly. I take it as the question if the reason swearing tics are so well known, is because it's more noticeable?

    Because yes, that is absolutely the case!

    I suspect that the less obvious (and problematic for the person experiencing them) tics are also less likely to be diagnosed. Like, a kid that just makes humming noises a lot is less likely to be taken in to a neurologist than a kid that occasionally uncontrollably screams swear words.

    Absolutely! Contrary to popular belief, lots of people with Tourette's are undiagnosed because they have a mild case. This number is even higher in older generations. As for myself, I have severe Tourette's and was diagnosed when I was younger. My mom had mild tics as a kid, her dad still does and so did his sister. Their grandmother apparently had pretty obvious tics as an adult. None of them were diagnosed.

    A diagnosis can be really important though, even if the tics are mild. It can make frustrations a lot less and explain to a person (and their environment) what's happening and how they're really not choosing to do a certain thing.

    That being said, I would like to bring some nuance to your comment: What you say is absolutely true! I just want to mention there's a whole lot of things between those two rather extremes. Loads of people will never tic words, yet have very obvious and debilitating tics, which can be both vocal as well as motor. There are also people who experience swear word tics, but don't get picked up immediately, because they tic it quietly and don't have other extremely obvious tics. All of this is also influenced by a lot of environmental factors, mainly how much people know about tic disorders.

    It also checks two boxes that are extremely common in tv/movie storytelling, and certainly more common than “the genuine inner experience of tics in daily life.” 1. It’s funny, or at least can be easily portrayed that way. Plenty of non-neurodivergent comedy amounts to people using profanity at socially inappropriate times (I can instantly make you think of a famous actor with only the word “motherfucker”), so a tic disorder becomes a quick backstory allowing you to write that in as much as you want. 2. It depicts neurodivergent people as socially awkward nuisances, who we might tolerate if they’re sufficiently funny (or brilliant). See for example the show Monk, which presents OCD mainly as a reason for its main character to be a bit of a selfish asshole in ways that others tolerate because it helps him solve crimes and provide comedy, even if the jokes are nearly always at his expense.

    We had a kid in my highschool with coprolalia. He didn't last long because of it. I shared a really shitty history teacher with him and the last time I saw him, it was for ticking out obscenities and I think his last words were "maybe you should actually teach".

    I could tell the tics were genuine because whenever they happened, he was always bright red with humiliation. But god that teacher deserved it.

    Does coprolalia affect written word at all or are there cases of it presenting as words on a page only and not verbal at all? And/or would writing it down satisfy the "need" in the same way as saying it outloud does? 

    There are people who experience copographia, which is the written coprophenomenon. This seems to be very rare, though.

    There might be people only experiencing coprographia and no coprolalia, although it seems rather unlikely to me. I don't think there's any specific research on this.

    Writing down these words will usually not satisfy the tic. A tic is most often mainly based in the way your body (including voice) feels and not in having put the word out there. For example, someone might have a tic where they hit walls with their left hand specifically. In this case, the tic doesn't sit into "this wall needs to be touched" but in "this specific part of my body needs to feel a specific thing with a specific force".

    Coprolalia also isn't the only word-based type of tic. I have echolalia, which makes me repeat others and my own words and sentences, but that's way less interesting for film makers and comedians.

    Correct! And same here.

    That's two distinct things even (it doesn't matter haha, but since we're educating on terminology... 😉) - echolalia is repeating others and palilalia is repeating yourself.

    And there's also loaaaads of verbal (word) tics that don't fit in a distinct category.

    To give some samples from myself: * Happy birthday * Pancake * Crocodile *...

    My best friend’s sister has Tourette’s. It’s very mild physically and usually small verbal clicks and woos and some other words, except for the fog horn. This tiny girl who will never be over 5’3” will always be able to make a louder sound than I at 6’2” will ever be able to.

    Ty 4 your response! I also have a tic disorder (suspected tourettes) so I was just curious about my condition

    What does it feel like when this happens?

    I experience kind of compulsive vocal outbursts. Its always things that arent obscene bit are inappropriate to say like 'i love you' or 'im pregnant' or sometimes its the name of somebody I'm close friends with. It occasionally happens in public but i generally can supress it or redirect the words into being less embarrassing, so I'll start saying 'I love you' but change it to 'I dont know' or just make it sound like I was singing a song instead. But then when im on my own i just shout it out. It usually happens when I'm having a thought in my head which makes me uncomfortable - like remembering somethinh embarassing or bad I did.

    Do tics feel like that?

    I also do this! Especially when embarrassed or uncomfortable, yes.

    I'd love to know why and if this is the same thing.

    I have ADHD and have assumed this is a form of vocal stimming. Its not really involuntary in the way some people here have described tics (like a sneeze thst has got to come out) but more of a very strong impulsive feeling and it seems to serve a specific purpose (drown out the bad thought). Ironically it can end up creating a brand new embarrasing moment to get uncomfortable about at a later date...

    I rarely know until right before it happens. I'm left surprised most of the time.

    To add on here, there’s research that shows that swearing triggers a unique kind of emotional release in the brain unlike any other language, so that’s likely why verbal tics tend to manifest with swear words more than other words.

    It's like having a mental itch. You can suppress the urge to do the tic, but the more you do, and the more aware you are of it, the more it compels you to "scratch the itch".

    Omg from my very layman and high view is coprolalia just “shit talking” in Latin?? That’s sick

    Greek here: Fun fact, coprolalia is Greek. If you were to say the same in English it would be "shit talking".

    One of my autism tics is that when I get ahead of myself in a sentence I'll briefly lock up with "Nn" before I restart on a new version of the sentence.

    I'm aware of it, it's annoying, and I have a lot of trouble avoiding it.

    Interestingly it's a common one I share with a lot of people on the spectrum I've known.

    I imagine Tourettes is similar to experience.

    I love that Coprolalia more or less translates to "shit-talking" though 😜 or.. I suppose "Potty-mouth"

    I know someone who actually has the uncontrolled swearing but his Tourette's was brought on by severe head trauma

    I don't have tourettes and I'm not a doctor so this is purely anecdotal, but I have a friend with tourettes and hers manifests as unexpected blinking and a kind of gulp sound like she's clearing her throat. Sometimes she says words, but it's always a one syllable word and as she describes it, something she just said prior to the tic or something she was about to say anyway. Like it was already right there, but wasn't going to be said except she tic'd and it popped out. This doesn't happen as much as the blinking or gulping, but I've definitely seen and heard her blurt out words at weird times and this was her explanation.

    Anyway, my very unscientific layman guess as to people who swear a lot is they have something similar going on but are in a social environment that swears a lot and maybe they swear a lot on their own anyway. So if the swear words were already on the tip of their tongue, maybe the tic pops them out unexpectedly.

    But yeah, hollywood makes it seem like it's just shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker motherfucker turd ass tits and twat all the time.

    Haha, now that I am thinking about it I had a friend in high school with tourettes too. He was the drummer in my shitty punk band. Poor guy, tourettes prevented him from being a very good drummer. His main tic was also a sort of blink thing but it seemed to take over his whole body for a split second. Looked like he was witholding a sneeze. It's hard to keep a solid beat when your whole body freezes up randomly.

    I feel like I used to have these tic moments as a kid, both vocal and motor, that would scratch the deepest itch if done so and drive me crazy if I tried to resist. But not so much anymore these days, if any, is it possible for my brain to have rewired over the years and finally close that haywire circuit to let me be at peace?

    Weird question but don’t you ever worry that you will do something harmful to yourself or others? For instance, when I get close to the edge of a high surface, there is a little voice in my bed that tells me to jump. I would never actually jump, but that weird compulsion is there.

  • Based on my understanding, the problem isn't just that you have a glitch in the motor nerves controlling your muscles, which forces them to move. You have a glitch in the overall system in your brain that directs how and when you want to move.

    Tic disorders are usually associated with some problem in the cortex (which does most of the thinking and remembering and feeling), the basal ganglia (which regulates emotional decisions and rewards), and/or the thalamus (which filters and relays nerve signals in and out of the brain). These three structures are part of the complex neural circuitry that helps you think about doing actions, decide you want to do those actions, and then tell your muscles to do those actions.

    So when you have a tic disorder, something goes wrong somewhere in that circuit, causing signals to misfire and your nervous system to get confused and alarmed. You start to feel like you HAVE to do SOMETHING, because the brain parts that send the "Do Something" signal are reading error messages and sending up red flags. So then your brain grabs for some action or habit or behavior (kind of at random, and kind of based on complicated factors), and decides "This must be it! This is the Something we're supposed to Do! Quick, do this!" 

    So then you do that action, and your confused nervous system calms down because it can resolve that "Do Something" signal and make it go away. And since the parts of your brain that regulate habits and release dopamine are involved, you get a strong psychological reward for doing it. And that makes your brain go "Aha, this behavior helped. I know exactly what to do next time that glitch happens." And so now that behavior is locked in as a new tic.

    I'm oversimplifying a lot here, and I'm probably wrong about a lot of the specific details, but in general that's the answer. The parts of your brain that plan and control complicated actions are just picking something for you to do, so that's why it can be something complicated and specific. 

    Tourette’s haver here, this is a pretty damn thorough and great way of describing tics. You have my sincere appreciation.

  • As for the words: language isn't stored in the brain as single vowels to then compose a word when speaking. It's often stored in different words, concepts, etc., which causes people with Tourette's in some cases to have full-word tics when their neurotransmitters misfire.

  • There's also a behavioral component to it. That's why to some extent it can be suppressed. Or why for some people it not only gets worse from stress but also is reported to help alleviate the stress.

    Some interesting studies out there showing interesting rates of comorbidity with ASD, ADHD, and other similarly shared conditions.

  • This is a rough one to ELI5, the brain is complicated and quite a few of the mechanisms in Tourette's syndrome are not well understood (yet). One thing we do know is that there's some similarities between the underlying mechanisms of Tourette's and other disorders such as ADHD and OCD, and in some ways I think it's more intuitive to explain what's going on by comparing to ADHD/OCD symptoms (the causes and effects are similar in some ways and almost opposite in others).

    I'll start off with a very simplified intro to brain anatomy, because that's kinda needed to understand the basics of how these disorders work. The brain is made up of lots of nerve cells called neurons. There's lots of different types of neurons that do different things - some send signals that activate other neurons (excitatory), some send signals that stop other neurons from being activated (inhibitory), and some send signals that have complicated effects (e.g. dopamine and serotonin).

    Neurons are organised in very specific ways on a microscopic level and at a whole brain level. On the microscopic level, neurons are arranged into circuits that use loops of excitatory and inhibitory neurons to control the activity of the main neuron in the circuit that in turn connects to other neural circuits and controls what those circuits are doing. On a bigger scale, different parts of the brain have different jobs and so some neurons have long connections to other parts of the brain to link their activity together, and these need to be connected together in the right way to work as they're supposed to.

    The underlying causes of Tourette's are really complex and involve several parts of the brain that process sensory information and control movement and behaviour, but one part worth calling out because of it's important role in Tourette's is the basal ganglia. The basal ganglia works as a master control centre for really important things like starting and stopping movement, decision making, and motivation, and is connected to the rest of the brain with complicated signals like dopamine (e.g. the most obvious symptom of Parkinson's disease is losing the ability to start movements, and this is caused by loss of specific cells in the basal ganglia that produce dopamine)

    In people with Tourette's syndrome (and ADHD and OCD), some of the microscopic neural circuitry in the basal ganglia doesn't quite develop in the way it's supposed to. In Tourette's syndrome, research has found there's a differences in how many inhibitory cells there are in some parts of the basal ganglia - in some places there's less than normal, and there's more inhibitory cells in other parts. This causes differences in how active the microscopic neuron circuits are, and that then causes differences in what happens in other parts of the brain because everything is connected.

    So this is where we get to tics, the best known symptom of Tourette's. When you boil it down, motor tics are an abnormal compulsive movement or action (compulsive = an "external" need to do something; a tick can be consciously held back to some extent, but the need won't go away until the compulsion is fulfilled). Tics happen because the basic systems that control sensory processing and action aren't working properly - the part of the brain that controls sensory information messes up and turns on the part of the brain that wants to do something (when it shouldn't), and the central control that is supposed to turn it off doesn't do it's job. The thinking part of your brain can override this if it wants to, but that means you have to think about it.

    This is where the commonalities to ADHD and OCD come in. OCD is best known for causing compulsive behaviours and it's easy to see some of the similarities (afaik, compulsions in OCD involve parts of the brain that process emotions rather than movement/action, but there's a lot of overlap). In ADHD the obvious problem can be simplified to hyperactive/impulsive behaviour (impulsive = acting without thinking) and difficulty initiating AND maintaining actions (both movement and thought processes), so it's almost the opposite effect in some ways - the master control doesn't do a great job of vetoing/stopping actions when it is/is not supposed to, but also the part of the brain whose job it is to want to do something doesn't always turn on when it should, or turns off when it shouldnt.

    And phew. Hope this is helpful!

  • CBIT therapist here. What I learned in the program was that is was akin to a faulty gait. Your basal ganglia is supposed to essentially take in environmental information and respond with appropriate motor or vocal output. However this gating mechanism gets a bit faulty or leaky. When the body starts to respond to the urge with the vocal or motor output a series of "feel good" chemicals are released reinforcing the tic. Other things like unwanted attention and/or well meaning attention can further "reinforce" and make the urge stronger. This can be confusing because most of my patients with tourettes dont want the attention And the chemical reward sounds counterintuitive especially when they are embarrassed. But that the end of the day bodies are chemicals and impulses and it doesn't know the difference between good/bad attention and just goes 'oooo attention here are some chemical rewards'.

    TLDR : faulty circuitry from the basal ganglia

  • I have a neurological muscle disorder closely related to Tourette's. (ie. I have Tourette's without the vocal tics)

    Let's just say the compulsion is irresistible. Completely irresistible. If I try to actually concentrate and resist a tic, I can do that for about 5-10 seconds before I get a bad feeling in the pit of my chest. It's a bit like the feeling when you're at the peak of a rollercoaster and you're about to do a high speed dive - it's that sort of weird feeling that is sometimes described as a feeling of impending doom

  • At college, I thought a girl has a crush on me because she kept winking in my direction. It turned out that she just had a twitch.

  • So I recently heard that tourettes actually has its roots as an autoimmune disorder.

    Autoimmune disorders are when your bodies natural immune defenses, instead of attacking foreign invading pathogens, actually attack your own healthy organs. In tourettes, the immune cells attack a certain part of the brain and the damage/inflammation this causes is what leads to the tics.

    I just found this out recently and thought it was super interesting.

  • My roommate has Tourettes and watching him try to hold it back during movies is honestly painful. You can literally see the tension building in his shoulders until he finally just lets it out.

  • Dude with officially diagnosed Tourette’s syndrome:

    Have you ever had a really bad itch but had something in your hands so you can’t itch it right away, and the more you can’t itch it the more you WANT to itch it, nay, the more you NEED to itch it?

    Well that’s how it feels to tic when you have Giles Syndrome (Tourette’s) you have this inescapable need to do… something. It could be blinking your eyes, raising your eyebrows, coughing, sniffing, twitching an arm or anything under the sun. The more you try to resist it, just like an itch the compulsion to do the thing gets bigger.

    There is currently no guaranteed effective treatment, but it’s thought the condition is adjacent to OCD.

    Interestingly, it seems to have a correlation with ADHD too, with up to 60% of people with Tourette’s syndrome also meeting the criteria for ADHD.

  • Doing finger guns sounds more like Functional Tics, not Tourette’s. They have completely different causes.

  • Honestly don't understand how you can understand one type of tic and not the other?