For added clarity, in the film it depicts attestupa, an alleged real practice in Sweden in the 17th century, where old people would commit ritual suicide for the good of the community. The joke here is that the same thing is secretly happening with engineers on work retreats, and this is the real reason there are fewer engineers over 40.
Edit: sorry, massively out on timing. The word comes from the 17th century but from writings about this allegedly happening much earlier (it may not have happened at all)
The term ättestupa came into use in Sweden in the 17th century, inspired by the Old Icelandic saga Gautreks saga, which is partly set in [Sweden]. ...a comical episode known as Dalafíflaþáttr ('the story of the fools from the valleys') in which one particular family is so miserly that they prefer to kill themselves than see their wealth spent on hospitality. ...the family members kill themselves by jumping off a cliff which the saga calls the Ættarstapi... which occurs in no Old Norse texts other than this saga.
...it is now generally accepted among researchers that the practice of suicide precipices never existed.
Watched Midsommar recently, fkn traumatizing. And their sub describes it as a comfort film! Shocked people keep talking about the old couple choosing suicide or the parents who died sleeping. Am i wrong, the cult murders were way creepier. The eerie manipulation. One guy was ripped open, immobile, eyes gouged, in hell & slowly eaten alive.
Or "red angel." Vikings would pull the lungs out the back of Anglo-Saxon chiefs who had converted to Christianity. The inaccuracy on Midsommer is the poor bastard was still breathing. His exposed lungs were shown to be inflating. The lungs don't have muscles, they only expand when the rib cage or diaphragm pull them open.
Personally I think that's one of the main appeals of the movie and it's complete tone shift after this moment.
It is, imo, about how comfort can be weaponized by group mentality to indoctrinate you. While the character is absolutely vulnerable to the group think, we on the outside with no threat can starkly see the turning point from this cute get well trip turning into an absolute nightmare in the snap of the fingers.
Cults hijack your emotions until you are so psychologically exhausted you can't fight their manipulation.
Lol no. Ättestupa was a pre-Christian thing. It was rediscovered by historians in the 17th century and the term caught the publics imagination. Thus a lot of cliffs where renamed in the 17th century after the alleged ancient pagan practice.
It's from a story that depicts people that are so stingy they would rather kill themselves than spend their wealth on other people.
It's very obviously satire and probably racist propaganda for it's time that would have been understood as satire and bullshit by the people of that time.
But for some reason, we choose to believe if someone tells a story that's old enough, it must be 100% based on fact and probably a religious text.
It's like someone 500 years from now finding old SpongeBob episodes, seeing Mr Krabs do crazy shit for a dollar then spreading false information that back in the early 2000s people believed sea crabs used to be obsessed with money.
Worth mentioning one of the old folks doesn't get the job done instantly, so the ritual leader finishes them off with a sledgehammer in broad daylight. Absolutely gruesome, and still somehow not the most disturbing thing in the movie. I worry about Ari Aster.
It's in broad daylight because it's in Sweden which, on the summer solstice probably gets a lot of daylight. The sun probably doesn't set til after midnight.
Software Engineer here, most people in this field eat like shit and don’t take care of themselves. You put us in a room of free food and we just spend the whole day eating because we’re overworked and understimulated.
I remember interviewing for a dev job around 2010 and several perks were focused around a horrible diet. There was a gigantic 10' x 10x box in the middle of the kitchen with Doritos and chocolate bars and candy in it. The fridge was loaded with pop and Monster, all full-sugar. Daily pizza orders for lunch. And this was somewhat the norm back then for small- to mid-sized software companies -- though that giant snack box made this one stand out in my head.
But even back then those perks were a detriment to me. I ended up at a company that has a full floor devoted to a fitness center, fresh fruit every day, and pays you for exercising on your breaks. They'd rather give employees wellness instead of cheap snacks.
I feel like attitudes have changed significantly since the 2000 - 2010 era, but maybe I've just surrounded myself with like-minded people and companies.
They jump because the hit a specific age where it is deemed that their usefulness to the collective society has been depleted. At a very specific age, they voluntarily jump. Although I suppose one thing I dont understand is the movie framed it as a specific age, but it was a couple that jumped. And it would be extremely unlikely that they had the same birthday. So is it waiting until a common denominator of age? Or was it indeed two people with the exact same birthday?
I just spent 4 hours yesterday building a component that will make my overall extension much more customizable and then deleted it out of frustration because i thought it wasn’t possible to pull off without rewriting components that actually worked and then today morning while showering I realized i just over reacted and that it was i fact possible, im gonna rewrite it now, this is the life.
Very very tired, 43 with kids. Started doing Java at IBM in 2001, after several companies, promotions and various languages I'm currently struggling to get enough work as a freelancer. I was hoping for better work life balance but I think I want out.
I reckon programming for that long is like being a professional sandcastle builder.
Sure you made something cool through hard work and dedication. But the tide comes along at regular intervals and washes the whole thing out. Or some asshole comes along and stomps through your work. And then you start from square one.
And every moron who doesn't understand the job thinks they or their nephew can do it.
It's just rolling that boulder up hill for eternity with a terrible dental plan.
My favorite is when they bring out something new that does what you did with skill and work, but now everyone can do easily... Only it sucks, is poorly written, full of holes and exploits... Hell, it could have been good, if it wasn't slapped together half-assed. But it's too late. The hype train has left the station, is already initiated into the tool kit and sales has promised support to enough customers that it's a permanent fixture.
And yes, I hear the pitchforks rattling and torches being lit... Innovation is GOOD. But sloppy, cheap, half-assed innovation with a "that's future-someone's problem" mentality is BAD.
So yeah, this guy gets it. Watching everyone pass the DGAF-buck down the line. Not fun. Having to re-learn skills you've already mastered. Not fun. And for those that say "always something new to learn"... Re-learning the same skills in New languages doesn't apply. That shit boring AF. Imagine re-taking intro level classes in college for Java or XML or YAML (aptly named).... At a certain point you just want the command list, and a conversation with the dev to slap them in the mouth for making "bad practice" their standard operating procedure.
Being part of history looks cool to nostalgia, but sucks in practice. It's infuriating. And exhausting. Especially if you have to make a living off it. Expenses keep rising, wages don't, and every innovation raises the bar a little so everyone is expected to deliver more. It sucks to remember a time when you would have been rich, but are now poor and struggling because the floor is lava. At some point you stop caring... A little at a time about different things. "Staying relevant", "the bleeding edge", "hype"... And you fall off that train. And time leaves you behind.
I'm 55. When I was a kid, dad bought us a used Radio Shack TRS-80. It used a cassette tape recorder to store programs. There were games, but nobody sold them in the small town we lived in. But there were magazines that actually printed programs in BASIC that we could buy.
My older brother was really smart, he'd read the programs in the store, figure out the basic way the program worked and write his own. He taught me a lot of how to program, and I'd make my own games with his help.
By the time we were in high school, we were decent little programmers. I went to school for Civil Engineering, but when I graduated, the economy was crap for engineering, but the internet was starting to take off, and programmers were in demand, so I got a job at a software company.
I always thought it was a little amazing that I got a career that really didn't exist when I was born. I think it's amazing that the same career is starting to crash before I can retire.
I used to write & sell games for the TRS CoCo. Even learned 6809 assembly when I was 15. Had my ad in Rainbow Magazine. Now I primarily code in R and want to retire so bad.
I feel for you, friend. W/L with kids and/or family responsibilities is no joke. You’re always cheating time because there’s never enough and everyone always wants more.
I have a similar experience working in the food industry. Food scientists, engineers, and technologists who work extensively in the plants are an interesting bunch. Lots of long shifts early mornings and late nights takes a toll on everyone. Every single one over the age of 50 who has been doing it for decades are very weird, quirky, or angry. How could they not be? Someone said the food scientist who had been working at a plant for 47 years was odd, and of course they are odd. They have been doing plant trials and first productions for longer than you and I have been alive. It takes its toll.
Identical to my experience in the cosmetics/personal care industry. The folks with decent interpersonal skills transition to sales jobs, the ones who are left are decidedly odd.
I didn't make it a decade before I bounced out of that work. Everything you said, plus how impossible it was to get ingredients or line time during the pandemic... For everyone still in it, I salute you.
IMO, nope. Sure, there is tired from long hours, but my tired, and I'll guess is the same with many here, is mainly from depression. I'm currently on an end of year PTO burn because of "use it or lose it" and my boss tells me I need to take time off... and since our department was gutted I'm watching my inbox stack up with tickets that others can't do. So taking time off only puts me further behind.
It’s easier said than done but if you work for a mid-large company, once you realize it’s impossible to do everything that only you can do, put a cap on what is reasonable and let the rest fall to the ground. But notify management before it falls so you’ve given them fair warning.
They count on you being the good soldier, straining to do the impossible. It keeps their overhead down if they can get you to do the work of more than one person and they make their bonus and profit numbers.
So, detach, do an honest day’s work (not ALL of the work), take your vacations, warn them what’s going to break and refuse to care more about the work than your employer does. Please take care of yourself.
Last employer, I trained my boss to cover the most basic daily tasks while I was gone for a week of vacation. Maybe 30 minutes of time every day. Three days in, he got lost and said eff it when he ran into a problem and stopped doing the daily tasks. I returned to find 20k in lost revenue and a backlog that took 4 months to recover from. I never took an uninterupted vacation again at that employer. It just wasn't worth it from a stress level to not remote in and do the 30 minutes of daily scripts.
Work life balance. Sounds cliche, but you really need to know how to just stop working when you're off the clock. Not do overtime when you don't need to, not answer emails after work hours, not even think about bugs when you're in the toilet.
You get old enough, work stops being the most important thing in your life. You get married, have kids, want to spend more time with them, then you realize the other sane people over 40 at work are the same as you.
I get my caffeine through soda that I stress-drink and that is killing me in ways that stopped being subtle. I'm convinced many software engineers don't retire, they drop dead.
I think if he heard you say these things, he would take it as a compliment. Us old timers with experience really appreciate anyone that respects us or likes our sense of humor.
The tiredness makes it real hard to not be grumpy. We’ve also seen like 10 different buzzwords that would “totally revolutionize the industry”, only to go back to tried and true 8/10 times. 😭
Everyday thinking about how the fuck do I retire from this shit.
Sick of reteaching off shore replacement team members that will be gone in two months when they figure they can just take that training and leverage it into better pay elsewhere.
Yeah, but now you get to review PRs created by AI. They automated the most fun part of software development, but left the least fun part for the humans.
I’m 44 and working in an IT consulting company. I’ve seen several lead devs burn out in recent years and almost did the same getting those projects finished. I don’t think it was this bad 20ish years ago when I started.
I work for a cloud hosting company and the years "best" performers get to go to a company retreat as a reward. I'd jump off a cliff while I was there too.
Software engineer exactly at the age of 40 here. It can be stressful and we burn out.
However, to inject some boring truth: a much larger factor is that software engineering has been a fast growing industry for the last 20 years, so many just didn't have time to grow old in it, yet. But some did, and there are not that few over 40s around actually.
Also, while "I was a crazy driven engineer for 20 years, now I'm opening a bakery where merge conflicts are banned" is a thing it's not like software developers are the only people who feel like doing such a thing. It's just that night nurses and cash register operators don't usually have that option, even though there's probably an even higher share of people who can get frustrated with their jobs.
I delivered pizza for years since my family owned a pizza shop growing up. I've been doing software engineering and these days data engineering for 15 years now. If I could support my family on it, I'd be right back to pizza delivery till I retire. Driving around listening to some tunes, hanging out in the kitchen, doing little odd jobs to help out the kitchen staff, it was beautiful lol.
I started off as a COBOL programmer on ICL mainframes in the early 80s. It was obvious by the 90s that that was not going to last long, so I made an effort to cross train into Oracle database software and C programming, which opened up a much larger employment pool. It then became apparent that I needed to learn other new technology to stay in the employment market, and have choices about where I worked and in what role. I made the move into management and architecture, but could still hold meaningful technical discussions with software engineers until I retired.
Note that the onus is on you to stay relevant. Employers are not good at it, especially if they have a large investment in a legacy technology.
My dream when I went to university was that I would become the last Fortran expert and outlive the remaining Fortran programmers by like 30 years. In my head that means I can hope around as a contractor saving businesses who desperately need a guy who can update some critical legacy infrastructure piece.
In practice it means I learned something pointless on my own time and can’t really get any practical experience because the Fortran legacy stuff is drying up year by year and the gray beards didn’t retire in time for me to break in.
About 25 years ago I realized that I could avoid the knowledge churn by learning about networking, because IPv4 wasn't going anywhere anytime soon.
Nowadays you need to back that skill up with a little bit of scripting/programming knowledge but meh, that's not a big deal, been doing that forever. For the most part I play the role of maytag repair man and it's glorious.
Just hope to make it to retirement before some exec sees my salary as a line item in a spreadsheet and decides 'AI can surely do this guy's job'
Thats a good point I had never thought of. I've been in tech for about 20 years, but always sales, partnerships and some architecture. its always bothered me that dealing with engineers and dev can be a difficult experience because many are grumpy bastards.
I settled into a rhythm in my job probably 10 years ago. I can imagine I would be a similarly grumpy bastard if I was forced to adapt like you bastards are every 6 months
Thank you for touching on the part no one else was. Software engineers have usually made a decent amount of money and devoted their lives to work so they haven't spent money on anything other than their hobbies. They have disposable income, intelligence, and motivation to change careers. Most people just have one of those.
Yea, nobody makes you change pans because flour switched versions, butter is deprecated, and some rich moron started a company selling ovens as a service
Peter here. This scene is from the movie Midsommar, where this Swedish cult believes a person’s life is divided into four seasons, 18 years each. Now, while the cult has members who are biologically able to live beyond 72, the members make the “sacrifice” to their community by committing suicide. The shocked look on the characters faces is because they witnessed a graphic suicide of two people jumping off a cliff.
Going back to software engineering, the industry has ageism elements, and there is a stereotype that tech execs only want young smart kids able to consistently pull 100+ hour weeks because they are on their “grindset”, and older more experienced devs should resign rather than “forcing” the company to fire them since their lives “should” end at 40.
a lot of people explaining software engineers are overworked and burnt out and quit/get laid off/move to something less demanding by 40 but they’re missing the joke as well. (i guess spoilers for this movie but it’s necessary to explain the joke).
the screenshot is from Midsommar (thank you to the person who corrected my spelling of the movie title lol), a movie about some Americans visiting Sweden for the midsummer festival with a classmate who has been studying abroad but is returning home. this scene is the first time they all start to get a clue that something isn’t actually right here. no one in the village is old enough to need caring for, and here they watch a ritual where 2 of the elderly throw themselves off a tall cliff and commit suicide “for the good of the community”.
To add a layer here, in some cultures where this practice happened, sometimes the old timers were pushed instead of going voluntarily. Given whats happening with the offshoring disguised as an AI-takeover, figured that was worth mentioning as well.
Edit: sidenote, Norsemen is a hilarious show, this was the opener for episode 1 lol
For those who aren’t familiar, Norsemen is like a crossover between The Office and Vikings… it’s also more historically accurate than Vikings in many ways.
Usually a software engineering career has a "becoming a carpenter or landscaper" section. In software everything repeats after 5-10 years and youngsters thinking they invented crazy stuff. Unfortunately you have seen that stuff at least 3-4 times already but with a different name.
I started my engineering career in my early to mid-thirties. No ageism as far as I can tell but maybe because the sexism takes precedence.
That said, age isnt the issue with getting started right now, AI is.
Also I didnt feel like an old developer until reading this post.
You should be wary of advice from anyone who isn't very recently in the same position. I joined the field in my early 20s over a decade ago and it seems *radically* different to get into it now. It seems radically different from even just a few years ago, or even just one year ago.
From my experience, no one cares about age. Truly, what does it actually matter? A hiring manager isn't thinking of recruits as 10 year prospects like in sports.The only thing I can think of is if there's such a gap between you and a team to where communication or camaraderie are an issue.
There's value in the tenacity and vigor of youth, but I'm assuming that to this point you've likely cultivated other skills that a fresh grad hasn't. That has value too.
Depends what you use it for. The trendier companies often have more egos and trend younger. But some teams like SRE, OPS, Networking, etc are usually a little older.
The market (at least in the US) isn’t the healthiest currently, but I don’t think tech skill is really going away any time soon. Especially at more “boring” companies.
Also, if you’re good at explaining technical things to non-technical people in a documentable and reproducible way, that’s honestly one of the best skills to have.
I’m a bit over that and i can tell you it’ll be fine for you.
The reason there are so few over 40 is because those in the 45+ range got really lucky with lots of stocks booming.
Those under 40 are nowhere near in general (except the lucky ones).
I think it’s just a function of them retiring early and not of them being pushed out. The current late 30s folks i see have no plans of retiring anytime soon and in 10 years we’ll see this same meme with 50 being the age. 10 years after that it’ll be 60.
No one gives a shit about your age. Also plenty of engineers over the age of 40. People going into software engineering has been accelerating non stop but back in our generation it wasn’t as popular. Also the industry or type of company you go into dictates it a lot. You won’t see older engineers at like series A startup because we have people to support.
Go into the defense industry and 30 would be considered young. You’ll run into engineers they have been there for 30+ years.
One of my favorite engineers to work with was at AOL for 20 years and wrote the first live streaming client. Guess his age!
Age ain’t the problem, entry level being non existent is the problem. The competition is way too high to just learn software engineering without a 4 year or a masters, and even with that it’s slim. And for the love of god don’t waste time and money on a boot camp.
Every day major companies are cutting staff flooding the market with unemployed engineers with experience. Market is not good unless you’re lucky to be in a spot where you’re already a senior/lead/architect.
Senior/Lead/Architect is pretty competitive too, you have to do multiple rounds of interviews where 1/2 the people are just looking for a reason to fail you. To be fair, there are many good interviewers too, but when you meet like 8-12 people SOME of them just don't want to be there. You really have to earn the pay.
Going down a level isn't an option either, that raises too many red flags.
A tech movie some time ago. Older software engineer working in production. Said that there are no software engineers over the age of 40 because they take them around back and shoot them.
Hardware "engineers" just plug in power and data cables and maybe a few screws. I am both. What i went to school for was to design electronics for manufacturing but what I do is assemble them on site and call it repair
Asian reporter Trisha Takenawa here. This is a scene from a movie called “Midsommar”. In this movie, a young couple travels to Norway to a fun retreat, and then are slowly horrified by some very interesting local traditions, one of which is Ättestupa, a practice where when people get old, instead of becoming a disgusting burden on their family, they end their own lives by jumping off a cliff. It is a fun community event, attended by friends, family, and apparently random tourists. This is a picture of them looking up at the cliff. Back to you, Tom.
Software engineer in the last half of my 30s here....
When you turn 40 they liquidate you and use the resulting fluid to anoint the mainframes that all big banks still use to appease the machine spirits and keep the global financial system running.
It gets harder every year as the mainframes demand more sacrificial blood and there are fewer of us. Do not weep for me for I go to the headsman with a song in my heart knowing I severe our future for another year
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This is a scene from a movie where someone jumps off a cliff, killing themself. Joke is that software engineers are depressed I guess
For added clarity, in the film it depicts attestupa, an alleged real practice in Sweden in the 17th century, where old people would commit ritual suicide for the good of the community. The joke here is that the same thing is secretly happening with engineers on work retreats, and this is the real reason there are fewer engineers over 40.
Edit: sorry, massively out on timing. The word comes from the 17th century but from writings about this allegedly happening much earlier (it may not have happened at all)
Thanks, just remembered the nightmare that was Midsommar and realized there is some truth to it.
Watched Midsommar recently, fkn traumatizing. And their sub describes it as a comfort film! Shocked people keep talking about the old couple choosing suicide or the parents who died sleeping. Am i wrong, the cult murders were way creepier. The eerie manipulation. One guy was ripped open, immobile, eyes gouged, in hell & slowly eaten alive.
IIRC the guy that was ripped open was supposed to represent a blood Eagle, an alleged Viking ritual execution practice.
Or "red angel." Vikings would pull the lungs out the back of Anglo-Saxon chiefs who had converted to Christianity. The inaccuracy on Midsommer is the poor bastard was still breathing. His exposed lungs were shown to be inflating. The lungs don't have muscles, they only expand when the rib cage or diaphragm pull them open.
Also depicted in the history channel show vikings. S2 E7 blood eagle, I looked it up. Way gorier of a scene than I expected on that channel
Personally I think that's one of the main appeals of the movie and it's complete tone shift after this moment.
It is, imo, about how comfort can be weaponized by group mentality to indoctrinate you. While the character is absolutely vulnerable to the group think, we on the outside with no threat can starkly see the turning point from this cute get well trip turning into an absolute nightmare in the snap of the fingers.
Cults hijack your emotions until you are so psychologically exhausted you can't fight their manipulation.
achually, ättestupa is highly unlikely to have ever been a thing, and if it was then it was before the viking age ie. before the 8th century.
Lol no. Ättestupa was a pre-Christian thing. It was rediscovered by historians in the 17th century and the term caught the publics imagination. Thus a lot of cliffs where renamed in the 17th century after the alleged ancient pagan practice.
And also with almost 100% certainty a myth.
It's very clearly not a real thing.
It's from a story that depicts people that are so stingy they would rather kill themselves than spend their wealth on other people.
It's very obviously satire and probably racist propaganda for it's time that would have been understood as satire and bullshit by the people of that time.
But for some reason, we choose to believe if someone tells a story that's old enough, it must be 100% based on fact and probably a religious text.
It's like someone 500 years from now finding old SpongeBob episodes, seeing Mr Krabs do crazy shit for a dollar then spreading false information that back in the early 2000s people believed sea crabs used to be obsessed with money.
Although in the movie they jump because they are old not depressed, don’t they?
Correct. See also this hilarious scene from Norsemen https://youtu.be/6ziMr4I3YqE
"I'm only 47!" 🤣🤣🤣
This shows is so underated.
That is hilarious, what is this from?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsemen_(TV_series)
Midsommar
Worth mentioning one of the old folks doesn't get the job done instantly, so the ritual leader finishes them off with a sledgehammer in broad daylight. Absolutely gruesome, and still somehow not the most disturbing thing in the movie. I worry about Ari Aster.
It's in broad daylight because it's in Sweden which, on the summer solstice probably gets a lot of daylight. The sun probably doesn't set til after midnight.
Ari Aster 🤝 traumatic head injuries
Software Engineer here, most people in this field eat like shit and don’t take care of themselves. You put us in a room of free food and we just spend the whole day eating because we’re overworked and understimulated.
I remember interviewing for a dev job around 2010 and several perks were focused around a horrible diet. There was a gigantic 10' x 10x box in the middle of the kitchen with Doritos and chocolate bars and candy in it. The fridge was loaded with pop and Monster, all full-sugar. Daily pizza orders for lunch. And this was somewhat the norm back then for small- to mid-sized software companies -- though that giant snack box made this one stand out in my head.
But even back then those perks were a detriment to me. I ended up at a company that has a full floor devoted to a fitness center, fresh fruit every day, and pays you for exercising on your breaks. They'd rather give employees wellness instead of cheap snacks.
I feel like attitudes have changed significantly since the 2000 - 2010 era, but maybe I've just surrounded myself with like-minded people and companies.
They jump because the hit a specific age where it is deemed that their usefulness to the collective society has been depleted. At a very specific age, they voluntarily jump. Although I suppose one thing I dont understand is the movie framed it as a specific age, but it was a couple that jumped. And it would be extremely unlikely that they had the same birthday. So is it waiting until a common denominator of age? Or was it indeed two people with the exact same birthday?
In the movie the ritual happens the first day of midsommar. So it’s whoever turned uh I believe 75? that year
Not that it really matters, but I think 72?
I just spent 4 hours yesterday building a component that will make my overall extension much more customizable and then deleted it out of frustration because i thought it wasn’t possible to pull off without rewriting components that actually worked and then today morning while showering I realized i just over reacted and that it was i fact possible, im gonna rewrite it now, this is the life.
Just yeet it into a new branch rather than deleting it
Software engineer and cloud architect here. 47 years of age.
We exist. We are tired.
So very tired.
And occasionally hangry.
Im horngry.
Welcome to my OnlyPans!
Suzy?
I’m glad I got that reference. I love her TikTok’s.
Glad she's recovering from her TBI. The initial post was scary.
Whoa, what?
Same question, I've been off TT for a long time, what happened?
ETA: TBI Recovery Journey: Updates and Insights | TikTok https://share.google/GKAdULQa7ANhaeLby
In one of her videos, she said she fell off her friend’s golf cart and cracked her skull.
Just don’t buy pesto at the store
horngry horngry horngry
Hornery
so very hangry
It's been years since I've had a hot pocket.
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This made me chuckle more than it probably should. Lol
And this is the weekend. Just.. 12... More.. Days..
And it's a whole new year ahead of you
69 and RE tired
Very very tired, 43 with kids. Started doing Java at IBM in 2001, after several companies, promotions and various languages I'm currently struggling to get enough work as a freelancer. I was hoping for better work life balance but I think I want out.
Jesus grandpa did you help invent that webcam they used to spy on the coffee pot?! You’re ancient
I am 71 and still in the business.
The asteroid killed my pet dinosaur.
Ever wonder what an overlay is?
Ever count memory in Kilobytes?
Must feel good to be part of history
No. No it does not
Why not? I imagine it was cool to write programs in binary at a point in time
I reckon programming for that long is like being a professional sandcastle builder.
Sure you made something cool through hard work and dedication. But the tide comes along at regular intervals and washes the whole thing out. Or some asshole comes along and stomps through your work. And then you start from square one.
And every moron who doesn't understand the job thinks they or their nephew can do it.
It's just rolling that boulder up hill for eternity with a terrible dental plan.
Tell that to banks with all that Cobol.
THI$$$
My favorite is when they bring out something new that does what you did with skill and work, but now everyone can do easily... Only it sucks, is poorly written, full of holes and exploits... Hell, it could have been good, if it wasn't slapped together half-assed. But it's too late. The hype train has left the station, is already initiated into the tool kit and sales has promised support to enough customers that it's a permanent fixture.
And yes, I hear the pitchforks rattling and torches being lit... Innovation is GOOD. But sloppy, cheap, half-assed innovation with a "that's future-someone's problem" mentality is BAD.
So yeah, this guy gets it. Watching everyone pass the DGAF-buck down the line. Not fun. Having to re-learn skills you've already mastered. Not fun. And for those that say "always something new to learn"... Re-learning the same skills in New languages doesn't apply. That shit boring AF. Imagine re-taking intro level classes in college for Java or XML or YAML (aptly named).... At a certain point you just want the command list, and a conversation with the dev to slap them in the mouth for making "bad practice" their standard operating procedure.
Being part of history looks cool to nostalgia, but sucks in practice. It's infuriating. And exhausting. Especially if you have to make a living off it. Expenses keep rising, wages don't, and every innovation raises the bar a little so everyone is expected to deliver more. It sucks to remember a time when you would have been rich, but are now poor and struggling because the floor is lava. At some point you stop caring... A little at a time about different things. "Staying relevant", "the bleeding edge", "hype"... And you fall off that train. And time leaves you behind.
Getting old sucks (mostly) 2/10, hard pass.
I'm 55. When I was a kid, dad bought us a used Radio Shack TRS-80. It used a cassette tape recorder to store programs. There were games, but nobody sold them in the small town we lived in. But there were magazines that actually printed programs in BASIC that we could buy.
My older brother was really smart, he'd read the programs in the store, figure out the basic way the program worked and write his own. He taught me a lot of how to program, and I'd make my own games with his help.
By the time we were in high school, we were decent little programmers. I went to school for Civil Engineering, but when I graduated, the economy was crap for engineering, but the internet was starting to take off, and programmers were in demand, so I got a job at a software company.
I always thought it was a little amazing that I got a career that really didn't exist when I was born. I think it's amazing that the same career is starting to crash before I can retire.
I used to write & sell games for the TRS CoCo. Even learned 6809 assembly when I was 15. Had my ad in Rainbow Magazine. Now I primarily code in R and want to retire so bad.
I crammed a complete satellite control system into 384K this year when the main RAM failed in orbit.
My first computer had exactly 3583 bytes of RAM available. It taught me how to use it efficiently.
I still have my VIC-20. Plays a great game of Space Invaders.
Given where retirement age is heading, I'm probably not 50% through my career yet.
Amazing reference!
Are you freelancing because you can't find a perm fulltime job?
Yeah, but because one of my kids is disabled and I need time at home to share their care needs. Can't commit to full time hours.
I feel for you, friend. W/L with kids and/or family responsibilities is no joke. You’re always cheating time because there’s never enough and everyone always wants more.
I have a similar experience working in the food industry. Food scientists, engineers, and technologists who work extensively in the plants are an interesting bunch. Lots of long shifts early mornings and late nights takes a toll on everyone. Every single one over the age of 50 who has been doing it for decades are very weird, quirky, or angry. How could they not be? Someone said the food scientist who had been working at a plant for 47 years was odd, and of course they are odd. They have been doing plant trials and first productions for longer than you and I have been alive. It takes its toll.
Identical to my experience in the cosmetics/personal care industry. The folks with decent interpersonal skills transition to sales jobs, the ones who are left are decidedly odd.
I didn't make it a decade before I bounced out of that work. Everything you said, plus how impossible it was to get ingredients or line time during the pandemic... For everyone still in it, I salute you.
Jesus chief im a 38 y.o API Architect, am I doomed?
Do you use cement, rebar or straight steel plates?
Only when the QAs fuck about
No, only swagger :P
I guess you've got two good years left.
33, IT infrastucture head and architect. We are both doomed, I suppose.
Have you tried downloading more ram?
I definitely do need to get rammed more...
RIP your inbox
Crazy statement but I respect it.
profile name ✅
Death by
snu snusudo rm -rfCode me like one of your kernel panics 🥵
OnlyDevs?
In this economy? RAM is barely affordable anymore thanks to AI.
dedotated wam
Just buy more stack...
Most of the software engineers I know are in their 50s or 60s.
My husband is a COBOL guy.
I hope hubby is reaping those large consulting or in-house bucks keeping those systems running!!!
Does that work like machinists in the 2000s? Low demand but near-zero supply.
How can you be less tired while working on that field? Is there a way?
IMO, nope. Sure, there is tired from long hours, but my tired, and I'll guess is the same with many here, is mainly from depression. I'm currently on an end of year PTO burn because of "use it or lose it" and my boss tells me I need to take time off... and since our department was gutted I'm watching my inbox stack up with tickets that others can't do. So taking time off only puts me further behind.
And it never ends. Hence depression. Hence tired.
It’s easier said than done but if you work for a mid-large company, once you realize it’s impossible to do everything that only you can do, put a cap on what is reasonable and let the rest fall to the ground. But notify management before it falls so you’ve given them fair warning.
They count on you being the good soldier, straining to do the impossible. It keeps their overhead down if they can get you to do the work of more than one person and they make their bonus and profit numbers.
So, detach, do an honest day’s work (not ALL of the work), take your vacations, warn them what’s going to break and refuse to care more about the work than your employer does. Please take care of yourself.
Sounds like you've been there.
Thanks, and take care of yourself as well.
Many of us have and you’re not alone. It’s the overachiever’s dilemma. Conquer it and you’ll be fine.
This was my paternity leave... All the shit just waited until I got back
Last employer, I trained my boss to cover the most basic daily tasks while I was gone for a week of vacation. Maybe 30 minutes of time every day. Three days in, he got lost and said eff it when he ran into a problem and stopped doing the daily tasks. I returned to find 20k in lost revenue and a backlog that took 4 months to recover from. I never took an uninterupted vacation again at that employer. It just wasn't worth it from a stress level to not remote in and do the 30 minutes of daily scripts.
Work life balance. Sounds cliche, but you really need to know how to just stop working when you're off the clock. Not do overtime when you don't need to, not answer emails after work hours, not even think about bugs when you're in the toilet. You get old enough, work stops being the most important thing in your life. You get married, have kids, want to spend more time with them, then you realize the other sane people over 40 at work are the same as you.
The toilets (without phone) and long shower are some of my more productive hours in terms of bug resolution...
The challenge happens when his boss holds him accountable for the piling up work when he does take the time…
Amphetamine. Made my heart stop after a couple of years though, so it’s back to copious amounts of caffeine and being ok with the tired.
I get my caffeine through soda that I stress-drink and that is killing me in ways that stopped being subtle. I'm convinced many software engineers don't retire, they drop dead.
Maybe I'll try something less intense lol...
Methylphenidate was an important discovery
39 embedded dev, not tired. Its my great interest in life and I love the job and the work. I'm exhausted by life in general however.
Tired and furry? Going by your pfp.
I work with an engineer who's over 50. He's hilarious.
I'm sure he's tired, though, and I certainly never want to piss him off.
I think if he heard you say these things, he would take it as a compliment. Us old timers with experience really appreciate anyone that respects us or likes our sense of humor.
60 here . So very tired
50 next year. I long for the fields and dream of never making another git commit.
And they wondered why as millennials we just listened to the rants and learned 😂
I’ll never let my kids go into IT. I’ve decided it for this reason. It doesn’t turn off, it is constant and insane.
Same but 52. Imagine how tired you’ll be in 5 years. That’s me. Also FUCK AZURE!
heh. F unstable front door!
The tiredness makes it real hard to not be grumpy. We’ve also seen like 10 different buzzwords that would “totally revolutionize the industry”, only to go back to tried and true 8/10 times. 😭
Everyday thinking about how the fuck do I retire from this shit.
Sick of reteaching off shore replacement team members that will be gone in two months when they figure they can just take that training and leverage it into better pay elsewhere.
37 year old staff engineer here. It doesn't get better... Does it?
Yeah, but now you get to review PRs created by AI. They automated the most fun part of software development, but left the least fun part for the humans.
Ohhh, we're not supposed to use an agent to auto-approve those? Shiit.
A unicorn!!!!
48 yo Software Engineer here. can confirm.
print(do_we_exist)
Never been happier. Not tired anymore.
The whole videogame industry needs another reset.
Im so sick of this field.
What?! Why weren’t you fed to The Basement Dwellers?! Someone’s head will roll for this oversight!
Am 60.. so bored and cannot wait for retirement..
45 y/o, 25+ yoe. We are here. Just want to retire and do geese farming.
I’m 44 and working in an IT consulting company. I’ve seen several lead devs burn out in recent years and almost did the same getting those projects finished. I don’t think it was this bad 20ish years ago when I started.
I work for a cloud hosting company and the years "best" performers get to go to a company retreat as a reward. I'd jump off a cliff while I was there too.
And cranky, years of on-call rotations and late nights have forged us into the curmudgeons we are.
Devsecops at 54 here. Im more out of fucks to give than I am tired.
I would have FIREd by now if healthcare wasn't such a shit show.
Watch your step... and your back
:)
Software engineer exactly at the age of 40 here. It can be stressful and we burn out.
However, to inject some boring truth: a much larger factor is that software engineering has been a fast growing industry for the last 20 years, so many just didn't have time to grow old in it, yet. But some did, and there are not that few over 40s around actually.
Also, while "I was a crazy driven engineer for 20 years, now I'm opening a bakery where merge conflicts are banned" is a thing it's not like software developers are the only people who feel like doing such a thing. It's just that night nurses and cash register operators don't usually have that option, even though there's probably an even higher share of people who can get frustrated with their jobs.
30 years ago I knew someone who left software for pizza delivery.
Its a fast growing industry
Must be the yeast
I would be pretty happy working as a delivery driver, if it just had better financial prospects.
I delivered pizza for years since my family owned a pizza shop growing up. I've been doing software engineering and these days data engineering for 15 years now. If I could support my family on it, I'd be right back to pizza delivery till I retire. Driving around listening to some tunes, hanging out in the kitchen, doing little odd jobs to help out the kitchen staff, it was beautiful lol.
Having no real responsibilities is the dream.
Imagine going to work clocking in, clocking out and then just forgetting work even exists until the next day.
I work remotely in software and drive for Walmart Spark on weekends. I do it less for the income and more for the mental contrast it provides.
https://preview.redd.it/0clbbz9rfz6g1.jpeg?width=1500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=621a15365d18a7994b9329e88d836c66760d0611
Outstanding reply.
I would add that there’s a few Old programmers still active because there’s a few Legacy Systems.
Who needs the Sanskrit Guy? Or, the COBOL master? Not many employers.
The point being that specialization and industry change/improvement will, eventually, render almost every programmer redundant.
I started off as a COBOL programmer on ICL mainframes in the early 80s. It was obvious by the 90s that that was not going to last long, so I made an effort to cross train into Oracle database software and C programming, which opened up a much larger employment pool. It then became apparent that I needed to learn other new technology to stay in the employment market, and have choices about where I worked and in what role. I made the move into management and architecture, but could still hold meaningful technical discussions with software engineers until I retired.
Note that the onus is on you to stay relevant. Employers are not good at it, especially if they have a large investment in a legacy technology.
I will say the issue with staying relavent is discerning between flash in the pan technologies and stuff that's going to last.
At the moment it seems every day there's a new programming language or a new in vogue technology.
But they fizzle out as fast as they arrive
My dream when I went to university was that I would become the last Fortran expert and outlive the remaining Fortran programmers by like 30 years. In my head that means I can hope around as a contractor saving businesses who desperately need a guy who can update some critical legacy infrastructure piece.
In practice it means I learned something pointless on my own time and can’t really get any practical experience because the Fortran legacy stuff is drying up year by year and the gray beards didn’t retire in time for me to break in.
About 25 years ago I realized that I could avoid the knowledge churn by learning about networking, because IPv4 wasn't going anywhere anytime soon.
Nowadays you need to back that skill up with a little bit of scripting/programming knowledge but meh, that's not a big deal, been doing that forever. For the most part I play the role of maytag repair man and it's glorious.
Just hope to make it to retirement before some exec sees my salary as a line item in a spreadsheet and decides 'AI can surely do this guy's job'
Sanskrit? You're majoring in a 5,000 year old dead language?
I’m 54, been doing this for 28 years, and I’m seriously thinking of opening a bakery. Damn it.
I want to open a dojo.
Working on it.
If I was as good at investing as I am at programming I'd be retired by now.
Calls to overseas teams are early enough for me. Bakeries seem to need people earlier than what I am doing today.
I genuinely thought that it's a chill job.
Depends on the company culture. I’ve worked in startups for most of my career, which is the opposite of chill.
Writing code is pretty chill
Software engineering is stressful as fuck
Thats a good point I had never thought of. I've been in tech for about 20 years, but always sales, partnerships and some architecture. its always bothered me that dealing with engineers and dev can be a difficult experience because many are grumpy bastards.
I settled into a rhythm in my job probably 10 years ago. I can imagine I would be a similarly grumpy bastard if I was forced to adapt like you bastards are every 6 months
Thank you for touching on the part no one else was. Software engineers have usually made a decent amount of money and devoted their lives to work so they haven't spent money on anything other than their hobbies. They have disposable income, intelligence, and motivation to change careers. Most people just have one of those.
I know a software engineer who owns a bakery now. She's much happier making cookies and homemade bread.
Yea, nobody makes you change pans because flour switched versions, butter is deprecated, and some rich moron started a company selling ovens as a service
HAD ME LAUGHING OUT LOUD 😭
The movies called Midsomer.
In thid scene they've Just watch organised cult suicide take place
Ättestupa… ättestupa…splat. I loved it.
46 Linux kernel maintainer
Go and shite
Aye, I dunno wtf this is on about.
I'm 43 and a senior dev. I have loads of dev mates that are similar ages. I was just at ones 55th birthday recently.
Load of shite.
Bless you. My Ubuntu and klipper boxes love you
Peter here. This scene is from the movie Midsommar, where this Swedish cult believes a person’s life is divided into four seasons, 18 years each. Now, while the cult has members who are biologically able to live beyond 72, the members make the “sacrifice” to their community by committing suicide. The shocked look on the characters faces is because they witnessed a graphic suicide of two people jumping off a cliff.
Going back to software engineering, the industry has ageism elements, and there is a stereotype that tech execs only want young smart kids able to consistently pull 100+ hour weeks because they are on their “grindset”, and older more experienced devs should resign rather than “forcing” the company to fire them since their lives “should” end at 40.
Peter out.
This is it. I’m actually shocked it took so much scrolling to find this! Wish I could upvote it twice.
a lot of people explaining software engineers are overworked and burnt out and quit/get laid off/move to something less demanding by 40 but they’re missing the joke as well. (i guess spoilers for this movie but it’s necessary to explain the joke).
the screenshot is from Midsommar (thank you to the person who corrected my spelling of the movie title lol), a movie about some Americans visiting Sweden for the midsummer festival with a classmate who has been studying abroad but is returning home. this scene is the first time they all start to get a clue that something isn’t actually right here. no one in the village is old enough to need caring for, and here they watch a ritual where 2 of the elderly throw themselves off a tall cliff and commit suicide “for the good of the community”.
This is a clever thought, and I believe you punched this particular meme the deepest.
Thanks for you wisdom, stranger and happy cake day :3
To add a layer here, in some cultures where this practice happened, sometimes the old timers were pushed instead of going voluntarily. Given whats happening with the offshoring disguised as an AI-takeover, figured that was worth mentioning as well.
Edit: sidenote, Norsemen is a hilarious show, this was the opener for episode 1 lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwD7f5ZWhAk
For those who aren’t familiar, Norsemen is like a crossover between The Office and Vikings… it’s also more historically accurate than Vikings in many ways.
Usually a software engineering career has a "becoming a carpenter or landscaper" section. In software everything repeats after 5-10 years and youngsters thinking they invented crazy stuff. Unfortunately you have seen that stuff at least 3-4 times already but with a different name.
Gosh, is it stupid of me to try and learn software engineering at age 36? I’m worried I’ll get far and then no one will hire me :/
I started my engineering career in my early to mid-thirties. No ageism as far as I can tell but maybe because the sexism takes precedence. That said, age isnt the issue with getting started right now, AI is. Also I didnt feel like an old developer until reading this post.
You should be wary of advice from anyone who isn't very recently in the same position. I joined the field in my early 20s over a decade ago and it seems *radically* different to get into it now. It seems radically different from even just a few years ago, or even just one year ago.
From my experience, no one cares about age. Truly, what does it actually matter? A hiring manager isn't thinking of recruits as 10 year prospects like in sports.The only thing I can think of is if there's such a gap between you and a team to where communication or camaraderie are an issue.
There's value in the tenacity and vigor of youth, but I'm assuming that to this point you've likely cultivated other skills that a fresh grad hasn't. That has value too.
Depends what you use it for. The trendier companies often have more egos and trend younger. But some teams like SRE, OPS, Networking, etc are usually a little older.
The market (at least in the US) isn’t the healthiest currently, but I don’t think tech skill is really going away any time soon. Especially at more “boring” companies.
Also, if you’re good at explaining technical things to non-technical people in a documentable and reproducible way, that’s honestly one of the best skills to have.
[deleted]
Yup, I think this is true. I also saw that some SF companies have just one dev over 40 as a source of truth or guidance.
I’m a bit over that and i can tell you it’ll be fine for you.
The reason there are so few over 40 is because those in the 45+ range got really lucky with lots of stocks booming.
Those under 40 are nowhere near in general (except the lucky ones).
I think it’s just a function of them retiring early and not of them being pushed out. The current late 30s folks i see have no plans of retiring anytime soon and in 10 years we’ll see this same meme with 50 being the age. 10 years after that it’ll be 60.
No one gives a shit about your age. Also plenty of engineers over the age of 40. People going into software engineering has been accelerating non stop but back in our generation it wasn’t as popular. Also the industry or type of company you go into dictates it a lot. You won’t see older engineers at like series A startup because we have people to support.
Go into the defense industry and 30 would be considered young. You’ll run into engineers they have been there for 30+ years.
One of my favorite engineers to work with was at AOL for 20 years and wrote the first live streaming client. Guess his age!
Age ain’t the problem, entry level being non existent is the problem. The competition is way too high to just learn software engineering without a 4 year or a masters, and even with that it’s slim. And for the love of god don’t waste time and money on a boot camp.
Every day major companies are cutting staff flooding the market with unemployed engineers with experience. Market is not good unless you’re lucky to be in a spot where you’re already a senior/lead/architect.
Senior/Lead/Architect is pretty competitive too, you have to do multiple rounds of interviews where 1/2 the people are just looking for a reason to fail you. To be fair, there are many good interviewers too, but when you meet like 8-12 people SOME of them just don't want to be there. You really have to earn the pay.
Going down a level isn't an option either, that raises too many red flags.
Pretty sure the joke is someone killed themselves young because software engineering is high stress and full of depress
Scene from Midsommar where a couple jumps off a cliff to a horrible death.
Software engineers are so holy, they get raptured up into heaven.
They dont make memes like they used to
A tech movie some time ago. Older software engineer working in production. Said that there are no software engineers over the age of 40 because they take them around back and shoot them.
https://preview.redd.it/c0ol16y7vy6g1.jpeg?width=400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=395ba89da328d22295cd5ebb5650eb36eccdd3d6
Hardware "engineers" just plug in power and data cables and maybe a few screws. I am both. What i went to school for was to design electronics for manufacturing but what I do is assemble them on site and call it repair
I'm software engineer. 41 years old. Thinking of starting a goose farm.
I’m 38, and I’m dreaming of an olive grove and goat cheese mini production.
52 year old Senior SWE here. Doing this for more than 30 years. We do exist!
The coal miners of the twenty-first century, with carpal tunnel syndrome instead of black lung disease.
My dad is a 65 year old engineer. He's written books, taught university, worked in major companies, been a freelancer.
He's been in management roles since his 40s, but he still codes on projects when they are rolling something out, or when something major goes wrong.
He is quite happy with his work life balance.
Asian reporter Trisha Takenawa here. This is a scene from a movie called “Midsommar”. In this movie, a young couple travels to Norway to a fun retreat, and then are slowly horrified by some very interesting local traditions, one of which is Ättestupa, a practice where when people get old, instead of becoming a disgusting burden on their family, they end their own lives by jumping off a cliff. It is a fun community event, attended by friends, family, and apparently random tourists. This is a picture of them looking up at the cliff. Back to you, Tom.
Software engineer in the last half of my 30s here....
When you turn 40 they liquidate you and use the resulting fluid to anoint the mainframes that all big banks still use to appease the machine spirits and keep the global financial system running.
It gets harder every year as the mainframes demand more sacrificial blood and there are fewer of us. Do not weep for me for I go to the headsman with a song in my heart knowing I severe our future for another year
If you do any job for around 20 years, there's a good chance you are gonna be depressed and rethink you life choices. Dont ask me how I know.
Movie: Midsommar. Scene: jump from a cliff. Reaction of the newcomers.