Funny how ChatGPT made a chapters of the "bad stuff" (if killing ustaše and četniks is bad idk), but then in one passage made all the good things a snippet even if they were bigger deals than the bad ones..
What happens when someone claims you're part of the Ustase, then? Reminds me of this Putin guy calling others Nazis and justifying a genocidal war, but hey, go ahead with your bloodlust.
I smell a good ol Balkan beef brewing here. Suggestion is to just move on from those times thus also remove those statues that divide people because people have different understanding into history.
Yeah, I'm not from the Balkans, it's just a bit jarring how people are so eager to jump into killing others based off a label. Pretty insane how people even bother downvoting the mention of fair trials.
It's very fun to watch Russian state TV lose their mind on this sort of stuff. I look forward to another rant from Solovyov going ape, threatening to take Warsaw in a day and nuke Britain (for some reason, but nothing to do with ugly soviet monuments, since there aren't any...I wish there was, just to destroy them)
I think it is good to have monuments dedicated to that period. Not monuments dedicated to the regime itself or anything though. The people who fought and died for our freedom deserve to be remembered
EDIT I am responding to a comment basically suggesting to remove all monuments related to that time period... Not just those built by the Soviets
No offense, but this may be quite hard to grasp for someone from Western Europe who doesn’t understand what trauma Communism has been for us in the East
There is a strong need to be reminded.. but not in a glorious way... It's very important not to forget what comunism has done to european national identities... and i don't say it in an extremist way, i say it in the most human way. People have to put their trauma at the center of their identity... not to glorify suffering, but to not let the voices of those oppressed die.
In Romania, after the revolution, we didn't heal our trauma.. we had an amputation, not healing, and it shows today in the fact that romanians have no memory... We say "it was hard", "it was hunger, cold" , "it passed, let's not dig up the past" but noone says "we were dehumanized, unrooted, and systematically destroyed as a nation"
Comunism in romania destroyed our own defensive language.. young people today automatically find "national identity" as extremist and don't have the words to name the trauma. They mistake ideology with identity... sad
I'll paste this LLM generated text, so that my ideas are articulated and framed in good english:
2. Communism compromised the language of identity
Words such as:
homeland
people
identity
collective suffering
unity
dignity
nation
were abusively used by the communist regime as propaganda.
The result:
when someone uses these words sincerely, authentically, non-politically — a young person’s mind automatically goes into defensive mode.
Not because the person is extremist.
But because the language of identity has been contaminated by the propaganda of the past.
3. Young people confuse identity with ideology
Because no one explained the difference to them.
IDENTITY = who you are as a cultural, moral, historical being. IDEOLOGY = the manipulation of that identity for political purposes.
Since communism and other forms of extremism abused identity, young people react like this:
👉 “If you say Romanians, you’re an extremist.”
👉 “If you talk about suffering, you’re being pathetic.”
👉 “If you quote Radu Gyr, you’re a radical.”
They don’t understand that you are neither fascist, nor an extremist nationalist, nor a nostalgic.
You are a person searching for moral truth, not political triumphalism.
They should go all the way and demolish 99% of the housing in Poland. It's all Soviet after all. Same for the railroads, they should remove this Soviet relic. Back to the agrarian age!
France did in fact destroy many of its kings monuments, and that destruction was part of its history too. History was made, history is being made, not forgoten, rejoice.
Communists have had their chance to speak, as have fascists and authoritarians in general. That they wasted it trying to reach Heaven by building a mountain of corpses tall enough to climb there is nobody's fault but their own. About time these failures shut up and find something better to do with their time so we can move on and try something new. Maybe they should try channeling that thirst for blood into writing vampire fiction or something?
If you havent noticed, fascists are CURRENTLY speaking, despite the fact that they have done Europe 10 times the harm than communists. So miss me with that "oh but we learnt from history blah blah" bs.
The difference between modern communists and fascists is that the fascists can keep the mask on until they get the hooks in, while the communists are full-on pedal to the metal batshit crazy from the get-go. That's why fascists have managed to get some support amongst the disaffected, while the Leningrad Fanboys only succeed in sabotaging the Left as a whole, aside from providing their leaders the typical cult leader side benefits of course.
Both are wolves, but communism is the wolf who can't stop howling nonstop while stalking prey while fascism is the wolf who's smart enough to dress up as your grandma to lure you in, funnily enough.
It's banned in the Polish constitution, just like communism is.
Yet the state is forbidding communists all while allowing Konfederacja and kkp politicians to engage in holocaust denial while the state has rememberance day for cursed soldiers, aka people who collaborated with UPA. Braun literally denied gas chambers and finished 4th in presidental elections. But yes, fascists are very banned in Poland🤣
There is a cemetery for soviet soldiers pretty much in the middle of Warsaw too. Now graves I don't care about, leave them, it's barbaric to destroy graves, (Soviet did just that after ww2 in Poland, mostly to erase any trace of the pre-soviet second Polish republic) but those ridiculous and very much imposing statues of soviet soldiers + an obelisk, I'd say destroy them
I think best we have is with Hungary. We have a cemetery being paid by them to maintain. They have a similar section on Kerepesti. Russian soldiers are laying next to revolters. I think that's a best approach possible, it makes you think. We shall respect the dead but their deeds shall be questioned
A monument to the Soviet “liberation” of Poland has been demolished in the small town of Maszewo – the latest in a long-running campaign to “decommunise” public spaces in Polish towns and cities.
“There is no place for Soviet objects in a free Poland,” declared Karol Polejowski, the deputy head of the state Institute of National Remembrance (IPN), which has led efforts to demolish dozens of communist-era monuments since Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine.
“We say ‘no’ to…Russians who believe that these lands somehow belong to their sphere of influence,” he added, speaking at a ceremony to mark the destruction of the two-metre-high obelisk with an industrial digger.
The monument was erected in the immediate aftermath of World War Two, when the Red Army had swept through Poland, pushing out the German-Nazi occupiers but then bringing the country, along with the rest of the Soviet Bloc, under decades of Moscow-imposed communist rule.
“These were not liberators,” said Polejewski. “They did not bring freedom to Poland, and this object was intended to legitimise their rule in this area.”
The obelisk had originally stood outside Maszewo’s town hall, topped with a red star and bearing the inscription: “Glory to the liberators.” Later, after the fall of the communist regime, the star and plaque were removed. The monument was then moved to a square on the edge of town.
Now, however, it has been demolished completely. The town’s mayor, Paweł Piesio, told the Polish Press Agency (PAP) that many residents have called for its removal and, when he proposed it to the town council, there were no objections
A new memorial will be built in its place next year, commemorating residents of the town and surrounding areas who moved there after the war, when it was transferred from Germany to Poland.
In 2016, the then-ruling national-conservative Law and Justice (PiS) government introduced a law requiring local authorities to “decommunise” public spaces by removing objects and names that “propagate communism or other totalitarian systems”.
However, only in 2022, after Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine, did efforts to remove Soviet-era memorials accelerate. The one now dismantled in Maszewo is the 43rd to be torn down in that period.
Those efforts were previously led by Karol Nawrocki, who headed the IPN from 2021 until this year, when he was elected president of Poland, taking office in August.
Polejowski noted that many Soviet-era monuments remain, including in various parts of the West Pomerania province where Maszewo is located. He appealed to local authorities to show “courage” and remove them.
The removal of Soviet memorials in Poland has been criticised by Russia, which argues that not only does it dishonour the memory of those who liberated the country from Nazi-German occupation, but also violates a bilateral agreement between the two countries.
Poland has pointed out, however, that the agreement relates only to graves and war cemeteries, not separate monuments and symbols. It also notes that, while the Red Army did push out the German occupiers, its arrival ushered in decades of brutal communist dominance.
Germany did a great evisl towards USSR and removing their monuments seems to me quite cynical like they want to remove any mention on people who actually defeated the Nazis
Those monuments were also made to honour Ukranian soliders who served in the Red Army
They should stay to remind Germans what happens when they become Nazis
Should Hitler refrain from operation Barbarossa, the Hitler - Stalin pact making soviets and nazis perfect partners in the war crime of invading Poland and mass killing Polish civilians, cleansing the intellectuals, and destroying the country’s cultural heritage, could remain in power. History could take a completely different turn. The end of WWII meant de facto russian occupation that ended only in 1993 with the last unit of the Red Army leaving Polish borders. History is never an objective tale, history written by russians, is always one giant lie. The monuments are milestones of historical narrative. Getting rid of the russian lies is a never ending labour. Sadly that steppe horde became nowadays quite skilled in peddling their lies online. Will Poles be able to tip the fear-mongering narratives of anti-Ukrainian hatred, and of “decaying West”, as well as we tip their loathed monuments?
Operation Barbarossa was practically guaranteed to happen once the Nazis obtained power in Germany, as a violent rejection of socialism was a core aspect of their ideology. Both sides figured that the pact was temporary, the Nazi economy was fueled by looting captured territory, and the Nazis planned to attack the USSR from the very beginning. Pretty much the only way it could have been avoided was if (somehow) France managed to hold on at the very beginning and win the war, but that's assuming the USSR doesn't jump in to try and take the rest of Poland (kind of like how Italy joined in while France was collapsing).
Also, Russia was never a steppe horde. Unless you count being subjugated by one as that, but I doubt you'll see much traction in that argument.
Muscovy as the vassal state of the Mongols was long enough under its political (yarlyk) and cultural influence to absorb the vocabulary, roots of mentality and the social fundamentals of their horde lords. Despite the efforts of the later generations of fantasy writers of what is now a shared russian historical mythology, who attempted to neglect the horde period for hurting too much their poor imperialist russian souls, these factors have remained since a strong and telling base of russian condition up to now.
Be it under the tsarist warmongering and feudal oppression, aggressive communist imperialism, or modern russian mafia-state oligarchy, the underlying need for conquer, loathe for the truth, idolisation of power and strong authority, as well as the unprecedented disregard for human life, oppression of the week and subdued, and replacement of morality with the absolute drive for loot remain the same.
Long lasting inability of the West to comprehend russian behaviour with the Western mind was in fact caused by this monstrous discrepancy of values, camouflaged by Peter I occidentalisation, Khrushchev’s policy of internationalist virtue signalling, or Putin’s businesslike attitude.
Russia and russians become perfectly coherent and predictable once we begin looking at them as at the bloodthirsty horde, that sees kindness as weakness, and wears all kinds of made up truths or lies depending on what works better to hide their true colours while they lie in wait before next attack. For russia knows no friends or allies, russia knows only slaves or enemies.
Everything you wrote in the second paragraph applied to the Nazi regime in WW2, and they were never conquered by the Mongols. What's your explanation for this?
I think you should be careful about assigning supposedly permanent attributes to entire societies, countries, cultures, etc. going back that far in history. Most of what you're describing are commonalities between modern totalitarian or authoritarian regimes, not characteristics that derive from a particular set of historical circumstances like Mongol rule over the Russian state.
If I was going to trace back the modern Russian political state, then I would start with the effects of the Communist Revolution and the rule of Stalin, plus the effect of the WW2 experience. Maybe also one could analyze the period typically called The Enlightenment and how it had less effect on the Russian compared to Western European culture.
That's not to say I don't find connecting modern behaviors with deep history interesting. I had the thought recently that the Nazis kind of acted like some demented Germanic barbaric tribe from the year 450 AD. But the farther you go back, the harder it is to definitely establish any cause and effect, and there are patterns of human behavior, especially when it comes to political systems and their interaction with human psychology, which seem to arise independently of particular historical circumstances.
EDIT: I am certainly not an expert on Russian history, but my understanding is that the Russian state was in the process of (rapidly?) modernizing in the early 1900's. It was just somewhat behind various other European political entities. But WWI caused a massive dislocation in their society, essentially a collapse, and then many unemployed soldiers joined the Reds; then there was a horrific civil war. If the communists had not succeeded, my guess is that Russian society would look extremely different today and more akin to a typical modern European state. (I am just supposing here, but my point is that the circumstances of the 20th century have been far more relevant to what we're discussing here than Mongol rule from more than five hundred years ago.)
Muscovy as the vassal state of the Mongols was long enough under its political (yarlyk) and cultural influence to absorb the vocabulary, roots of mentality and the social fundamentals of their horde lords.
Pedantic as it may be, but the Russians were never proper vassals of the Mongols (or later Golden Horde), they were tributaries. The Mongols never incorporated or settled the heavily wooded lands surrounding the Eurasian steppes. The region where Vladimir-Suzdal was was way too marshy and densely forested for nomadic habitation and way of life, the Mongols would typically just burn and kill, then leave when they had to. The only peoples to really absorb Mongolic influences in the manner you're describing were the Turkic people in the steppes, which is why it was among those people and within those lands that the Mongolian successor states emerged.
Also, there is little-to-no lend words of Mongolian in Russian, and even scarcer cultural or societal influences, much less mentalities. This is a straight-up lie. Now, Russian does have quite a bit of Turkic loan words in their vocabulary, but that's because they were neighbors; Ukrainian does as well. The predominant foreign social and cultural force the influenced the Russians were the Byzantine Romans, by far (and sometimes through proxy of the Bulgarians, who also copied and were influenced by the Romans). Their manner and form of autocracy, the legal structure and intermingling of the church to the emperor (tsar), even the way they tracked the passage of seasons and time, everything was shaped by their desire to imitate the Romans. Hell, even the title of tsar, the double-headed eagle (and the St. George imagery), the design of their cathedrals came from the Romans. Not the Mongols.
I'll skip the paragraph that seems to mostly be a hostile interpretation of Russian history. I don't like engaging with opinions.
Long lasting inability of the West to comprehend russian behaviour with the Western mind was in fact caused by this monstrous discrepancy of values, camouflaged by Peter I occidentalisation, Khrushchev’s policy of internationalist virtue signalling, or Putin’s businesslike attitude.
Much of the West explicitly distrusted and looked down on Russia, and that only really started to change a bit with Peter the Great winning the Great Northern War, and it accelerated greatly under Catherine the Great. However, Western Europeans (mostly French, British and Germans during the early modern period) still saw Russians as “semi-Asiatic”, which is to say “semi-inferior”, due to geography. They would still intermarry with them because they were still seen as “white”, but there was a hypocritical perception that because most of Russia's land was in Siberia (and thus Asia; despite the fact that European colonial holdings were typically much larger than their countries proper), they were seen as white people of lesser cultural stature. The fact that they were Orthodox and Slavs would also play a role in this perception among some, to varying degrees.
There is nothing uniquely Russian about cronyism, oligarchism, authoritarianism or simple unmitigated greed, nor are Russians uniquely violent or imperialistic. The sheer brutality happening in Sudan would make even the most vile Russian war criminal blush. Same with other war crimes in the Horn of Africa (like the Tigray War), Central Africa or Southeast Asia (like the Myanmar Civil War) or the many cartel wars in Latin America. Many of the leaders and warlords tick the same cruel and brutal boxes as Putin; this is just the end result of basic authoritarian militarism.
This isn't a justification of Putin or Russia's actions; the invasion is unjust, Russia's crimes against Ukraine are evil and unprovoked and utterly callous, but the truth is damning enough; let's not fantasize a mythological origin for why Russia is the way it is.
All the modern countries that were formerly suzeren to the Ottoman Empire bear a strong Turkish cultural influence either they like or not. For all who have mistakenly absorbed russian historiography as an absolute oracle of the truth, the thesis that the same process took place in Muscovia vassalised by the Golden Horde sounds like a blasphemy, while in fact is a completely normal phenomenon. The fact that modern Turkey has more in common with the Ottoman empire than modern Mongolia with the Khanate does not change much in this context. The real nonsense would be to believe that there was something very special in russia that made it impermeable to the strong external influence that lasted almost two and a half century.
All the modern countries that were formerly suzeren to the Ottoman Empire bear a strong Turkish cultural influence either they like or not.
They were also directly incorporated into the Ottoman Empire and, in some cases (like Bosnia, iirc) there was an explicit assimilation intent. They were also part of the Ottoman Empire for much, much, much longer than the Russians were tributaries of the Mongols. Russians were forced to pay tribute to the Mongols for around 250 years, from when Batu came and did Batu things to that standoff at some river (can't remember the name)
The Balkans were under direct Turkic rule (sometimes under vassalage, but usually Ottomans governed the region without proxies) for around 500 years (Bosnia and Albania had the least time under Ottoman rule, but were the most intensely assimilated, but even that was at least ~300 years). The Levant and Egypt were for around 400ish years, but they were much less Turkified; Egypt was famously a vassal state with non-Turkic rule at several points.
So there is definitely a case for this, but it is seen most obviously in Europe, since that was far closer to the capital (Constantinople) and were non-Islamic, so the Ottomans ruled there with a heavier hand.
For all who have mistakenly absorbed russian historiography as an absolute oracle of the truth, the thesis that the same process took place in Muscovia vassalised by the Golden Horde sounds like a blasphemy, while in fact is a completely normal phenomenon.
I think modern Russian historical accounts should be treated with healthy skepticism in plenty of cases (the anti-Normanist theory is just nonsense, for example), but it'd be a lie to say historical fabrications or “massaging” is uniquely Russian, or that this is all Russia ever does. Almost every modern country has done it (especially if they are irredentists), Russia just has a more open reputation for it. However, the idea that Russians are some kind of Slavic-Mongolian hybrid is mostly a product of racist (and broadly anti-Slavic) rhetoric from the late 19th-early 20th century.
The fact that modern Turkey has more in common with the Ottoman empire than modern Mongolia with the Khanate does not change much in this context.
The Ottomans barely had any connection to the Mongols; they emerged from the Seljuks, who ran through Iran and into Mesopotamia and Anatolia long before the Mongols came onto the scene. If anything, Mongols (and especially their successor states in Central Asia) were opponents to the Anatolian Turks at the time. The Osmans (Ottomans) first popped out in Sogut, and that part of Anatolia never came under direct Mongol control iirc. The Seljuks ended up as part of the Mongol empire proper (vassals), but the Osman beyliks were more like tributaries to the old Seljuk rulers, although in the loosest of ways. By the time the Mongols shattered the Seljuks, the Anatolian beyliks became independent for all intents and purposes.
The real nonsense would be to believe that there was something very special in russia that made it impermeable to the strong external influence that lasted almost two and a half century.
The problem is not that the idea is nonsense, the problem is that your premise of how Mongols exerted their authority over their tributaries is wrong. Russia and Ukraine both were subjugated by the Mongol invasion, but the Mongols ruled similarly to how the Romans did during the Republican era; they set up puppet rulers and figures favorable or sympathetic to Rome to rule territories adjacent to them. The Mongols did the same in lands where they did not (or could not) effectively govern themselves directly and, importantly, in places where they themselves didn't want to live.
The Russian hinterlands were one such region. Korea was another (after a ton of fighting), as were the Caucasus (Georgia and Armenia). Mongols didn't rule there directly, they set up rulers to govern for them, pay tribute and keep the peace.
I don’t think you should group the actions of the Russian government with the whole of the Russian people. They are still humans, not a bloodthirsty horde.
They are humans and they are also a bloodthirsty horde. They've proven that latter every single chance they've got. Being human does not mean you can't be thoroughly evil nor that other people should pretend otherwise.
Also, I know it's fashionable in anarchist circles to think that governments are some kind of evil alien parasites separate from the pure innocent societies they manage, because that way they can pretend that for example abolishing law enforcement will result in need for it disappearing rather than lynch mobs stepping in to provide it instead, but it's nonsense. Russian government is a reflection of Russian society and Russian culture. The only atypical thing about Putin as a Russian leader is that he's sober.
That same logic could be applied to many countries around the world, especially the western countries in recent times. Some of the biggest and most atrocious atrocities committed by humans has been done by countries such as the US, Britain, France, Germany, Spain, the Netherlands, Türkiye, etc. I could argue that the population of these countries are bloodthirsty hordes. Dehumanizing a group of people as large as 140 million people is dangerous. The atrocities of a government should mostly not be put on the people, as the government are the ones with the power, especially in the dictatorship of modern Russia.
What does that piece of genealogical mythology suppose to mean in the context of the current thread? There must be some obscure premise that seems obvious to you. Confucian Asia, Buddhist Asia, there are great old cultures and eternal civilisations with sound sense of purpose, and peaceful prospects. This is exactly my point: civilisations evolve through centuries through seeking a balance in their conditions, and a refinement in their traditions. Was has been once a pretentious swag, nowadays is museum folklore or anecdote.
Russia, to the contrary, has been trapped for generations in the loop of its violent past like some drunk hamster in a wheel.
“If I fall asleep, wake up 100 years later and somebody asks me, what is going on in Russia, my immediate answer will be: drinking and stealing.”
The quote, often falsely attributed to Mikhail Saltykov-Shchedrin, originally found in the notes of poet Pyotr Vyazemsky, is the ultimate depiction of the russian doomed folk hopelessly trapped in the vicious circle of their brutal historical purgatory.
Or much easier if France invades in 1936 when German forces reenter the demilitarized Rhineland in violation of the Versailles Treaty. Germany was not remotely prepared for war at that time and the army high command would have deposed Hitler if the French had invaded (they planned to retreat immediately if met with resistance, but if the French army had pushed on a military coup was considered necessary by the leading generals). France was in the middle of an internal crisis at the time, but it is still the easiest and most realistic way to avoid the whole scenario.
Yes a French invasion of Germany in 1936 would have stopped it, a coup was not necessary only the will to invade by the politicians.
And if Czechoslovakia had resisted in 1938 there is a chance that the German generals would have couped Hitler, and even if they did not, Germany might have lost that war.
And if Poland had not signed a non aggression pact with Germany, and instead stood by Czechoslovakia, the Germany would have lost. Instead Poland took a part of Czechoslovakia.
The Polish leadership wanted to invade the USSR together with Germany but did not want "the woodlands of the north" but the southern part, the same part Hitler.
It's not what he did, it's what he represents. An opressive dictatorship where people were imprisoned for saying one wrong word, where neighbours spied on each other, where no one could trust anyone, not even your own family. That is what communism represents for a lot of people, and to my grandparents as well. The secret police followed my grandma to school, they searched her apartment once a week, and they didn't allow her to pursue higher education. Anyone who support communism doesn't know this stuff, and if they do, they are fucking stupid.
Good. The fact that monuments like this are still standing is as absurd as America having statues for Confederates, or if Europe still had statues glorifying the Nazis plastered everywhere.
Oppressors and murderers belong to trash can of history and as a warning example for the future generations in history books.
It's not the cleverist response though. Instead, they should solicit proposals for de-communizing or de-Russiafying the monument, which maybe means demolishing it, but not necessarily, just see what artists propose.
Paul McCarthy might grind it down to look like a butt plug for example. You could always carve some victims names into it for some specific atrocity.
yeah i knew that, but the severness of the situation there came to my mind on two roadtrips through norway.
(and don't forget vienna/austria)
yeah without the soviets , the story and history would be different during ww2. but it was 80years ago. meanwhile the soviets or russians where not the same heros they where back then. so maybe the monuments should be overthinked
Hope the monuments get replaced with something better instead of leaving the space blank. Like a monument to Solidarność, or to the Polish soldiers who died helping to liberate Europe.
This should be done in orbanistan too! We have a soviet monument in the heart of budapest too, near to parlaiment!
Its called "Szabadság tér" (Freedom square) named by commies as if soviets would liberate us... (They occuppied hungary for 45 years...
Awesome! Hopefully Berlin soon as well… especially the statue of “the unknown rapist”. Apparently there is some treaty, but still, it’s disrespectful to the victims of the Red Army
I really can't comprehend how this is a controversial decision. It's a symbol of a bygone era, of a painful era. How can people support keeping monuments to a regime that opressed them. Nobody sees statues of Hitler or Mussolini, right? Then why have statues of Lenin or Stalin that represent an almost equally bad and opressive regime.
Maybe because Soviets enabled the Nazis in their conquests in the first place, or because Soviet "liberation" turned into them imposing totalitarian police states all over Eastern Europe pretty quickly.
Commies pretend M-L never happened and claim that communist Poland was free. Heck, they're called Tankies precisely for supporting the USSR sending the tanks in to repress any attempts of Eastern Europe to deviate from the Moscow line. If you think you need to be a tankie to celebrate the defeat of the Third Reich I don't know how to help you.
They did, and they deserve criticism for it, but then again they were the last ones to do so, after England, France, Italy and the rest (inc Poland) enabled the Nazi conquests of rearmament, Austria, plus Czechoslovakia. Pretending Mol-Rib didn't exist is only as absurd as pretending it wasn't the last in a long line of Nazi enabling accords.
And Communist Poland was totalitarian under Stalin no doubt about it. But it was Poland, and not an extension of Germany where all Slavic people and Jews were turned to ashes. Yet this is repeatedly lamented by the slavic people living there now.
They won like one war after being half-occupied, supported by land-lease and with allies being actually being fully involved, after losing enormous amount of human lives and resources, and couldn’t stop bragging about for the rest of the century.
“There is no place for Soviet objects in a free Poland,” declared Karol Polejowski, the deputy head of the state Institute of National Remembrance (IPN)
So, when are they going to demolish 99% of the housing in Poland?
Lmfao you're all crashing the fuck OUT about this fact aren't you. Most housing in Poland is thanks to the communist times. Get rid of them. Put your people in the streets.
In a long-run it will definitely be for the best if shitbox commieblocks are replaced with modern architecture, and the process is in fact already undergoing.
Why would anyone want to be reminded of being occupied by the Nazis and next by the Soviet Union?
In Slovenia someone removed a Tito statue head - big surprise was that those are still hanging around.
Tito is controversial to this day.
Stalin, on the other hand,…
To be fair, Tito did hold Yugoslavia together, he was the glue, he is the lesser. Made Communism work, yeah Tito was a dictator.
Why wouldn't it be around?
Well he stayed in power for 50 years and prisoned/killed his opposition but if someone likes this kind of rule, then they can do it.
Crimes and Repression under Tito
After the war, Tito’s Partisans carried out mass executions of:
Croatian Ustaše
Serbian Chetniks
Slovenian Home Guard
Civilians accused of collaboration
The most infamous events include the Bleiburg repatriations and death marches
Tens of thousands (estimates range from ~30,000 to over 100,000) were killed without trial
Yugoslavia was a one-party authoritarian state
Opposition politicians, journalists, nationalists, and dissidents were:
Arrested
Imprisoned
Silenced by secret police (UDBA)
No free elections or independent media
After Tito broke with Stalin in 1948, suspected Stalinists were imprisoned
Goli Otok became notorious for:
Torture
Forced labor
Psychological abuse
Thousands were detained; many died or were permanently traumatized
Croatian Spring (1971): crushed
Albanian protests in Kosovo: repressed
Expressions of nationalism were often treated as crimes against the state
Context and Nuance
Why Tito is sometimes viewed more positively than other communist leaders:
Yugoslavia was less repressive than Stalin’s USSR
Borders were open; people could travel abroad
Living standards were relatively higher
He avoided full Soviet control and led the Non-Aligned Movement
Funny how ChatGPT made a chapters of the "bad stuff" (if killing ustaše and četniks is bad idk), but then in one passage made all the good things a snippet even if they were bigger deals than the bad ones..
Fair play on everyone else but are we really going to say executions of Ustase were a bad thing
Indiscriminate killings of people belonging to a group doesn't sound advisable. Send them to trial and jail them for their crimes, if need be.
I don’t think you know who they were. In a case as clear cut as the Ustase, I don’t want any single one of them to slip through legal cracks.
What happens when someone claims you're part of the Ustase, then? Reminds me of this Putin guy calling others Nazis and justifying a genocidal war, but hey, go ahead with your bloodlust.
I smell a good ol Balkan beef brewing here. Suggestion is to just move on from those times thus also remove those statues that divide people because people have different understanding into history.
Yeah, I'm not from the Balkans, it's just a bit jarring how people are so eager to jump into killing others based off a label. Pretty insane how people even bother downvoting the mention of fair trials.
I love people who are creating their opinions a priori and then asking chatgpt for arguments to defend them 🤣
An Estonian who has heard 3 things in his life about Tito and Yugoslavia should teach Slovenes who they should have statues of 🤣
So that it may never happen again
It's very fun to watch Russian state TV lose their mind on this sort of stuff. I look forward to another rant from Solovyov going ape, threatening to take Warsaw in a day and nuke Britain (for some reason, but nothing to do with ugly soviet monuments, since there aren't any...I wish there was, just to destroy them)
so. you watch RTV. how nice of you
And?
and
So, you made a completely pointless and irrelevant statement of nothing then. Weird.
I think it is good to have monuments dedicated to that period. Not monuments dedicated to the regime itself or anything though. The people who fought and died for our freedom deserve to be remembered
EDIT I am responding to a comment basically suggesting to remove all monuments related to that time period... Not just those built by the Soviets
The Soviets didn't fight for Poland's freedom.
Well how could they have as the Soviets were Nazi allies who co-started WW2.
[deleted]
They share equal responsibility for the invasion of Poland.
Not equal responsibility for the genocides, though both did do their own.
But the invasion of Poland was a joint effort between the two
They wouldnt get equal blame had they not invaded Finland, the Baltic states and Poland merely five years after genociding Ukraine.
I did not say they did. It was a general comment on monuments dedicated to events from that period. The Soviets and Nazis carved up Poland
We do have monuments commemorating that period - no need to keep the ones glorifying murderers and rapists.
I am responding to a comment basically suggesting to remove all monuments to that time period, regardless of who built them
I don't think that was the meaning of the initial poster.
No offense, but this may be quite hard to grasp for someone from Western Europe who doesn’t understand what trauma Communism has been for us in the East
I'm not arguing for preservation of monuments built by the Soviets
Freedom? You are nuts. Soviets attacked and occupied Poland with nazi germany
I explicitly am not referring to the Soviet or Nazi regime
Well who are you referring to then?
Oh I don't know, maybe the Polish resistance?
Not sure a Soviet monument is a good choice to remember the resistance..
I am commenting on a comment saying you don't want to be reminded AT ALL to the period...
Ok, fair enough
Dedicated to the horrors of that period, yes. But we shouldn't have monuments erected by the occupying powers...
There is a strong need to be reminded.. but not in a glorious way... It's very important not to forget what comunism has done to european national identities... and i don't say it in an extremist way, i say it in the most human way. People have to put their trauma at the center of their identity... not to glorify suffering, but to not let the voices of those oppressed die.
In Romania, after the revolution, we didn't heal our trauma.. we had an amputation, not healing, and it shows today in the fact that romanians have no memory... We say "it was hard", "it was hunger, cold" , "it passed, let's not dig up the past" but noone says "we were dehumanized, unrooted, and systematically destroyed as a nation"
Comunism in romania destroyed our own defensive language.. young people today automatically find "national identity" as extremist and don't have the words to name the trauma. They mistake ideology with identity... sad
I'll paste this LLM generated text, so that my ideas are articulated and framed in good english:
2. Communism compromised the language of identity
Words such as:
were abusively used by the communist regime as propaganda.
The result:
when someone uses these words sincerely, authentically, non-politically — a young person’s mind automatically goes into defensive mode.
Not because the person is extremist.
But because the language of identity has been contaminated by the propaganda of the past.
3. Young people confuse identity with ideology
Because no one explained the difference to them.
IDENTITY = who you are as a cultural, moral, historical being.
IDEOLOGY = the manipulation of that identity for political purposes.
Since communism and other forms of extremism abused identity, young people react like this:
👉 “If you say Romanians, you’re an extremist.”
👉 “If you talk about suffering, you’re being pathetic.”
👉 “If you quote Radu Gyr, you’re a radical.”
They don’t understand that you are neither fascist, nor an extremist nationalist, nor a nostalgic.
You are a person searching for moral truth, not political triumphalism.
They should go all the way and demolish 99% of the housing in Poland. It's all Soviet after all. Same for the railroads, they should remove this Soviet relic. Back to the agrarian age!
99% of roads were actually rebuilt already
Erasure of history is like burning book. It's stupid.
We don't go around destroying our king's monument
France did in fact destroy many of its kings monuments, and that destruction was part of its history too. History was made, history is being made, not forgoten, rejoice.
Imagine France keeping monuments erected to glorify the Nazi occupation...
Did you say the same when Confederate statues in the US got torn down? lmao
These statues should been removed long time ago
Together with local communist parties who built them.
So much for valuing free speech.
Communists have had their chance to speak, as have fascists and authoritarians in general. That they wasted it trying to reach Heaven by building a mountain of corpses tall enough to climb there is nobody's fault but their own. About time these failures shut up and find something better to do with their time so we can move on and try something new. Maybe they should try channeling that thirst for blood into writing vampire fiction or something?
If you havent noticed, fascists are CURRENTLY speaking, despite the fact that they have done Europe 10 times the harm than communists. So miss me with that "oh but we learnt from history blah blah" bs.
communist killed 10x more then fascists.
And I dont defend fascist. Comunist are so bad.
Not true
The difference between modern communists and fascists is that the fascists can keep the mask on until they get the hooks in, while the communists are full-on pedal to the metal batshit crazy from the get-go. That's why fascists have managed to get some support amongst the disaffected, while the Leningrad Fanboys only succeed in sabotaging the Left as a whole, aside from providing their leaders the typical cult leader side benefits of course.
Both are wolves, but communism is the wolf who can't stop howling nonstop while stalking prey while fascism is the wolf who's smart enough to dress up as your grandma to lure you in, funnily enough.
Mask on where? Neofascist parties are filled with holocaust deniers and nazi worshipers lmao.
Ban fascism too.
It's banned in the Polish constitution, just like communism is.
Yet the state is forbidding communists all while allowing Konfederacja and kkp politicians to engage in holocaust denial while the state has rememberance day for cursed soldiers, aka people who collaborated with UPA. Braun literally denied gas chambers and finished 4th in presidental elections. But yes, fascists are very banned in Poland🤣
Ban russia and russian troll bots
Fought on the wrong side last time
Better dead than red!
So, you’re saying that Poland should have fought for the Nazis?
Exactly and rightfully so anyone who criticizes Poland for this is a pro-Z Kremlin bot.
I firmly stand against borh, but what does soviet communism have to do with putinist russia??
Same expansionist empire with a different name
So all expansionist empires are to be clumped together?
We are talking about a single expansionist empire with different names. Tsarist Russia, USSR, Russian Federation are all the same empire.
They suck eachothers cock
Russian complaints in 3. 2. 1.
You love to see it.
Im pretty sure they have it automated at this point
sweet ambrosia in me ears
There is a cemetery for soviet soldiers pretty much in the middle of Warsaw too. Now graves I don't care about, leave them, it's barbaric to destroy graves, (Soviet did just that after ww2 in Poland, mostly to erase any trace of the pre-soviet second Polish republic) but those ridiculous and very much imposing statues of soviet soldiers + an obelisk, I'd say destroy them
I think best we have is with Hungary. We have a cemetery being paid by them to maintain. They have a similar section on Kerepesti. Russian soldiers are laying next to revolters. I think that's a best approach possible, it makes you think. We shall respect the dead but their deeds shall be questioned
Considering the barbaric nature of the Red Army, they don’t need graves…
They make for a great pissing spot though
A monument to the Soviet “liberation” of Poland has been demolished in the small town of Maszewo – the latest in a long-running campaign to “decommunise” public spaces in Polish towns and cities.
“There is no place for Soviet objects in a free Poland,” declared Karol Polejowski, the deputy head of the state Institute of National Remembrance (IPN), which has led efforts to demolish dozens of communist-era monuments since Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine.
“We say ‘no’ to…Russians who believe that these lands somehow belong to their sphere of influence,” he added, speaking at a ceremony to mark the destruction of the two-metre-high obelisk with an industrial digger.
The monument was erected in the immediate aftermath of World War Two, when the Red Army had swept through Poland, pushing out the German-Nazi occupiers but then bringing the country, along with the rest of the Soviet Bloc, under decades of Moscow-imposed communist rule.
“These were not liberators,” said Polejewski. “They did not bring freedom to Poland, and this object was intended to legitimise their rule in this area.”
The obelisk had originally stood outside Maszewo’s town hall, topped with a red star and bearing the inscription: “Glory to the liberators.” Later, after the fall of the communist regime, the star and plaque were removed. The monument was then moved to a square on the edge of town.
Now, however, it has been demolished completely. The town’s mayor, Paweł Piesio, told the Polish Press Agency (PAP) that many residents have called for its removal and, when he proposed it to the town council, there were no objections
A new memorial will be built in its place next year, commemorating residents of the town and surrounding areas who moved there after the war, when it was transferred from Germany to Poland.
In 2016, the then-ruling national-conservative Law and Justice (PiS) government introduced a law requiring local authorities to “decommunise” public spaces by removing objects and names that “propagate communism or other totalitarian systems”.
However, only in 2022, after Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine, did efforts to remove Soviet-era memorials accelerate. The one now dismantled in Maszewo is the 43rd to be torn down in that period.
Those efforts were previously led by Karol Nawrocki, who headed the IPN from 2021 until this year, when he was elected president of Poland, taking office in August.
Polejowski noted that many Soviet-era monuments remain, including in various parts of the West Pomerania province where Maszewo is located. He appealed to local authorities to show “courage” and remove them.
The removal of Soviet memorials in Poland has been criticised by Russia, which argues that not only does it dishonour the memory of those who liberated the country from Nazi-German occupation, but also violates a bilateral agreement between the two countries.
Poland has pointed out, however, that the agreement relates only to graves and war cemeteries, not separate monuments and symbols. It also notes that, while the Red Army did push out the German occupiers, its arrival ushered in decades of brutal communist dominance.
Russian bots unite!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good, keep going. Europeans should be doing this throughout the continent, especially in Germany.
Personally I'm all for public toilets.
There is a Lenin statue in Seattle that is generally used for that purpose.
Germany did a great evisl towards USSR and removing their monuments seems to me quite cynical like they want to remove any mention on people who actually defeated the Nazis
Those monuments were also made to honour Ukranian soliders who served in the Red Army
They should stay to remind Germans what happens when they become Nazis
The same men who committed mass rapes in Berlin and Eastern Germany? How can people who do that be “heroic”.
Which army did not do mass rapes in ww2
Even the Auswitz camps had brothels for prisoners where female prisoners worked against their will
War is comming with Russia so all things that do not support the narative must be removed
Maybe Germany should not give many to todays rapist in Israel what about that
u/bot-sleuth-bot
russians were no better than nazis during ww2, more like the same coin just different side
By now, all Soviet statues should be openly destroyed and removed. Oh and drunken Dimi with nuclear threat in 3 2 1…
good. freeing Poland and all other countries formerly occupied by the nazis was never a goal of the soviets.
They got occupied by the Nazis and after the Soviet Union.
From one dictator to ... an even worse dictator.
Should Hitler refrain from operation Barbarossa, the Hitler - Stalin pact making soviets and nazis perfect partners in the war crime of invading Poland and mass killing Polish civilians, cleansing the intellectuals, and destroying the country’s cultural heritage, could remain in power. History could take a completely different turn. The end of WWII meant de facto russian occupation that ended only in 1993 with the last unit of the Red Army leaving Polish borders. History is never an objective tale, history written by russians, is always one giant lie. The monuments are milestones of historical narrative. Getting rid of the russian lies is a never ending labour. Sadly that steppe horde became nowadays quite skilled in peddling their lies online. Will Poles be able to tip the fear-mongering narratives of anti-Ukrainian hatred, and of “decaying West”, as well as we tip their loathed monuments?
Operation Barbarossa was practically guaranteed to happen once the Nazis obtained power in Germany, as a violent rejection of socialism was a core aspect of their ideology. Both sides figured that the pact was temporary, the Nazi economy was fueled by looting captured territory, and the Nazis planned to attack the USSR from the very beginning. Pretty much the only way it could have been avoided was if (somehow) France managed to hold on at the very beginning and win the war, but that's assuming the USSR doesn't jump in to try and take the rest of Poland (kind of like how Italy joined in while France was collapsing).
Also, Russia was never a steppe horde. Unless you count being subjugated by one as that, but I doubt you'll see much traction in that argument.
Muscovy as the vassal state of the Mongols was long enough under its political (yarlyk) and cultural influence to absorb the vocabulary, roots of mentality and the social fundamentals of their horde lords. Despite the efforts of the later generations of fantasy writers of what is now a shared russian historical mythology, who attempted to neglect the horde period for hurting too much their poor imperialist russian souls, these factors have remained since a strong and telling base of russian condition up to now.
Be it under the tsarist warmongering and feudal oppression, aggressive communist imperialism, or modern russian mafia-state oligarchy, the underlying need for conquer, loathe for the truth, idolisation of power and strong authority, as well as the unprecedented disregard for human life, oppression of the week and subdued, and replacement of morality with the absolute drive for loot remain the same.
Long lasting inability of the West to comprehend russian behaviour with the Western mind was in fact caused by this monstrous discrepancy of values, camouflaged by Peter I occidentalisation, Khrushchev’s policy of internationalist virtue signalling, or Putin’s businesslike attitude.
Russia and russians become perfectly coherent and predictable once we begin looking at them as at the bloodthirsty horde, that sees kindness as weakness, and wears all kinds of made up truths or lies depending on what works better to hide their true colours while they lie in wait before next attack. For russia knows no friends or allies, russia knows only slaves or enemies.
Everything you wrote in the second paragraph applied to the Nazi regime in WW2, and they were never conquered by the Mongols. What's your explanation for this?
Oh, I can take a guess as to why he doesn't have much to say about that
Seriously? Read again, think “permanence”.
I think you should be careful about assigning supposedly permanent attributes to entire societies, countries, cultures, etc. going back that far in history. Most of what you're describing are commonalities between modern totalitarian or authoritarian regimes, not characteristics that derive from a particular set of historical circumstances like Mongol rule over the Russian state.
If I was going to trace back the modern Russian political state, then I would start with the effects of the Communist Revolution and the rule of Stalin, plus the effect of the WW2 experience. Maybe also one could analyze the period typically called The Enlightenment and how it had less effect on the Russian compared to Western European culture.
That's not to say I don't find connecting modern behaviors with deep history interesting. I had the thought recently that the Nazis kind of acted like some demented Germanic barbaric tribe from the year 450 AD. But the farther you go back, the harder it is to definitely establish any cause and effect, and there are patterns of human behavior, especially when it comes to political systems and their interaction with human psychology, which seem to arise independently of particular historical circumstances.
EDIT: I am certainly not an expert on Russian history, but my understanding is that the Russian state was in the process of (rapidly?) modernizing in the early 1900's. It was just somewhat behind various other European political entities. But WWI caused a massive dislocation in their society, essentially a collapse, and then many unemployed soldiers joined the Reds; then there was a horrific civil war. If the communists had not succeeded, my guess is that Russian society would look extremely different today and more akin to a typical modern European state. (I am just supposing here, but my point is that the circumstances of the 20th century have been far more relevant to what we're discussing here than Mongol rule from more than five hundred years ago.)
I'm sorry, but this is nonsense.
Pedantic as it may be, but the Russians were never proper vassals of the Mongols (or later Golden Horde), they were tributaries. The Mongols never incorporated or settled the heavily wooded lands surrounding the Eurasian steppes. The region where Vladimir-Suzdal was was way too marshy and densely forested for nomadic habitation and way of life, the Mongols would typically just burn and kill, then leave when they had to. The only peoples to really absorb Mongolic influences in the manner you're describing were the Turkic people in the steppes, which is why it was among those people and within those lands that the Mongolian successor states emerged.
Also, there is little-to-no lend words of Mongolian in Russian, and even scarcer cultural or societal influences, much less mentalities. This is a straight-up lie. Now, Russian does have quite a bit of Turkic loan words in their vocabulary, but that's because they were neighbors; Ukrainian does as well. The predominant foreign social and cultural force the influenced the Russians were the Byzantine Romans, by far (and sometimes through proxy of the Bulgarians, who also copied and were influenced by the Romans). Their manner and form of autocracy, the legal structure and intermingling of the church to the emperor (tsar), even the way they tracked the passage of seasons and time, everything was shaped by their desire to imitate the Romans. Hell, even the title of tsar, the double-headed eagle (and the St. George imagery), the design of their cathedrals came from the Romans. Not the Mongols.
I'll skip the paragraph that seems to mostly be a hostile interpretation of Russian history. I don't like engaging with opinions.
Much of the West explicitly distrusted and looked down on Russia, and that only really started to change a bit with Peter the Great winning the Great Northern War, and it accelerated greatly under Catherine the Great. However, Western Europeans (mostly French, British and Germans during the early modern period) still saw Russians as “semi-Asiatic”, which is to say “semi-inferior”, due to geography. They would still intermarry with them because they were still seen as “white”, but there was a hypocritical perception that because most of Russia's land was in Siberia (and thus Asia; despite the fact that European colonial holdings were typically much larger than their countries proper), they were seen as white people of lesser cultural stature. The fact that they were Orthodox and Slavs would also play a role in this perception among some, to varying degrees.
There is nothing uniquely Russian about cronyism, oligarchism, authoritarianism or simple unmitigated greed, nor are Russians uniquely violent or imperialistic. The sheer brutality happening in Sudan would make even the most vile Russian war criminal blush. Same with other war crimes in the Horn of Africa (like the Tigray War), Central Africa or Southeast Asia (like the Myanmar Civil War) or the many cartel wars in Latin America. Many of the leaders and warlords tick the same cruel and brutal boxes as Putin; this is just the end result of basic authoritarian militarism.
This isn't a justification of Putin or Russia's actions; the invasion is unjust, Russia's crimes against Ukraine are evil and unprovoked and utterly callous, but the truth is damning enough; let's not fantasize a mythological origin for why Russia is the way it is.
All the modern countries that were formerly suzeren to the Ottoman Empire bear a strong Turkish cultural influence either they like or not. For all who have mistakenly absorbed russian historiography as an absolute oracle of the truth, the thesis that the same process took place in Muscovia vassalised by the Golden Horde sounds like a blasphemy, while in fact is a completely normal phenomenon. The fact that modern Turkey has more in common with the Ottoman empire than modern Mongolia with the Khanate does not change much in this context. The real nonsense would be to believe that there was something very special in russia that made it impermeable to the strong external influence that lasted almost two and a half century.
They were also directly incorporated into the Ottoman Empire and, in some cases (like Bosnia, iirc) there was an explicit assimilation intent. They were also part of the Ottoman Empire for much, much, much longer than the Russians were tributaries of the Mongols. Russians were forced to pay tribute to the Mongols for around 250 years, from when Batu came and did Batu things to that standoff at some river (can't remember the name)
The Balkans were under direct Turkic rule (sometimes under vassalage, but usually Ottomans governed the region without proxies) for around 500 years (Bosnia and Albania had the least time under Ottoman rule, but were the most intensely assimilated, but even that was at least ~300 years). The Levant and Egypt were for around 400ish years, but they were much less Turkified; Egypt was famously a vassal state with non-Turkic rule at several points.
So there is definitely a case for this, but it is seen most obviously in Europe, since that was far closer to the capital (Constantinople) and were non-Islamic, so the Ottomans ruled there with a heavier hand.
I think modern Russian historical accounts should be treated with healthy skepticism in plenty of cases (the anti-Normanist theory is just nonsense, for example), but it'd be a lie to say historical fabrications or “massaging” is uniquely Russian, or that this is all Russia ever does. Almost every modern country has done it (especially if they are irredentists), Russia just has a more open reputation for it. However, the idea that Russians are some kind of Slavic-Mongolian hybrid is mostly a product of racist (and broadly anti-Slavic) rhetoric from the late 19th-early 20th century.
The Ottomans barely had any connection to the Mongols; they emerged from the Seljuks, who ran through Iran and into Mesopotamia and Anatolia long before the Mongols came onto the scene. If anything, Mongols (and especially their successor states in Central Asia) were opponents to the Anatolian Turks at the time. The Osmans (Ottomans) first popped out in Sogut, and that part of Anatolia never came under direct Mongol control iirc. The Seljuks ended up as part of the Mongol empire proper (vassals), but the Osman beyliks were more like tributaries to the old Seljuk rulers, although in the loosest of ways. By the time the Mongols shattered the Seljuks, the Anatolian beyliks became independent for all intents and purposes.
The problem is not that the idea is nonsense, the problem is that your premise of how Mongols exerted their authority over their tributaries is wrong. Russia and Ukraine both were subjugated by the Mongol invasion, but the Mongols ruled similarly to how the Romans did during the Republican era; they set up puppet rulers and figures favorable or sympathetic to Rome to rule territories adjacent to them. The Mongols did the same in lands where they did not (or could not) effectively govern themselves directly and, importantly, in places where they themselves didn't want to live.
The Russian hinterlands were one such region. Korea was another (after a ton of fighting), as were the Caucasus (Georgia and Armenia). Mongols didn't rule there directly, they set up rulers to govern for them, pay tribute and keep the peace.
They have alies. North Korea
You think russia would lift a finger to defend north Korea?
No, at best that is a transactional relationship.
Racist much?
Russians are also racist, true.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Russia
that's a very interesting notion. i'll try to read more about it
I don’t think you should group the actions of the Russian government with the whole of the Russian people. They are still humans, not a bloodthirsty horde.
Mongols are also still humans.
They are humans and they are also a bloodthirsty horde. They've proven that latter every single chance they've got. Being human does not mean you can't be thoroughly evil nor that other people should pretend otherwise.
Also, I know it's fashionable in anarchist circles to think that governments are some kind of evil alien parasites separate from the pure innocent societies they manage, because that way they can pretend that for example abolishing law enforcement will result in need for it disappearing rather than lynch mobs stepping in to provide it instead, but it's nonsense. Russian government is a reflection of Russian society and Russian culture. The only atypical thing about Putin as a Russian leader is that he's sober.
That same logic could be applied to many countries around the world, especially the western countries in recent times. Some of the biggest and most atrocious atrocities committed by humans has been done by countries such as the US, Britain, France, Germany, Spain, the Netherlands, Türkiye, etc. I could argue that the population of these countries are bloodthirsty hordes. Dehumanizing a group of people as large as 140 million people is dangerous. The atrocities of a government should mostly not be put on the people, as the government are the ones with the power, especially in the dictatorship of modern Russia.
So much racism, allowed now because Putins invasion of Ukraine.
The only difference between you and those in Russia who thinks what Putin is doing is right, is where you were born.
That is the only difference, you are the same type of person.
Well, biologically humans share 98% of their genome with chimpanzees. Google “culture”.
lol
Sometimes I wonder how shocked would be great grandpas of the current Poles if they read what their great grandsons write
What does that piece of genealogical mythology suppose to mean in the context of the current thread? There must be some obscure premise that seems obvious to you. Confucian Asia, Buddhist Asia, there are great old cultures and eternal civilisations with sound sense of purpose, and peaceful prospects. This is exactly my point: civilisations evolve through centuries through seeking a balance in their conditions, and a refinement in their traditions. Was has been once a pretentious swag, nowadays is museum folklore or anecdote.
Russia, to the contrary, has been trapped for generations in the loop of its violent past like some drunk hamster in a wheel.
“If I fall asleep, wake up 100 years later and somebody asks me, what is going on in Russia, my immediate answer will be: drinking and stealing.”
The quote, often falsely attributed to Mikhail Saltykov-Shchedrin, originally found in the notes of poet Pyotr Vyazemsky, is the ultimate depiction of the russian doomed folk hopelessly trapped in the vicious circle of their brutal historical purgatory.
Least russophobic pole, lmao
Beautifully said
Another Russophobic crap. Some people must really stop reading their national propaganda.
That would be the russians.
You will understand some day, Western mind. Russians will force you to understand how they are.
Or much easier if France invades in 1936 when German forces reenter the demilitarized Rhineland in violation of the Versailles Treaty. Germany was not remotely prepared for war at that time and the army high command would have deposed Hitler if the French had invaded (they planned to retreat immediately if met with resistance, but if the French army had pushed on a military coup was considered necessary by the leading generals). France was in the middle of an internal crisis at the time, but it is still the easiest and most realistic way to avoid the whole scenario.
Yes a French invasion of Germany in 1936 would have stopped it, a coup was not necessary only the will to invade by the politicians.
And if Czechoslovakia had resisted in 1938 there is a chance that the German generals would have couped Hitler, and even if they did not, Germany might have lost that war.
And if Poland had not signed a non aggression pact with Germany, and instead stood by Czechoslovakia, the Germany would have lost. Instead Poland took a part of Czechoslovakia.
The Polish leadership wanted to invade the USSR together with Germany but did not want "the woodlands of the north" but the southern part, the same part Hitler.
Funny part is that Operation Barbarossa would be impossible without oil imported from USSR. Germans would have fuel only till ~October 1941.
No, you are mixing it up, that is without Romanian oil.
However without the grain, metals and many other things that the USSR exported to Germany, the war would have been much harder.
The Germans would have run out of manganese much earlier, which would have made their tanks weaker, which happened later in the war.
The Germans would also have had far fewer explosives.
Down with monuments to occupation throughout Europe
It should be in a museum
I wish we'd do this in Germany. It's infuriating that we still have Lenin monuments.
Pro tip, dont launch a war of enslavement and extermination.
What did Lenin do to you? Lmao
It's not what he did, it's what he represents. An opressive dictatorship where people were imprisoned for saying one wrong word, where neighbours spied on each other, where no one could trust anyone, not even your own family. That is what communism represents for a lot of people, and to my grandparents as well. The secret police followed my grandma to school, they searched her apartment once a week, and they didn't allow her to pursue higher education. Anyone who support communism doesn't know this stuff, and if they do, they are fucking stupid.
How does Lenin represent what you described?
[removed]
That would have meant that all of Poland and the USSR would have been enslaved and exterminated.
Good. The fact that monuments like this are still standing is as absurd as America having statues for Confederates, or if Europe still had statues glorifying the Nazis plastered everywhere.
Oppressors and murderers belong to trash can of history and as a warning example for the future generations in history books.
It's completely justified to tear down monuments put up to glorify that wretched regime.
https://eng.ipn.gov.pl/en/digital-resources/articles/8876,Soviet-crimes-and-repressions-against-Polish-citizens-after-September-17th-1939.html
https://eioco.nl/en/katyn-erased-but-not-forgotten/
https://polishhistory.pl/marek-wierzbicki-soviet-aggression-against-poland-was-a-blow-the-effects-of-which-we-can-still-feel-today/
It's not the cleverist response though. Instead, they should solicit proposals for de-communizing or de-Russiafying the monument, which maybe means demolishing it, but not necessarily, just see what artists propose.
Paul McCarthy might grind it down to look like a butt plug for example. You could always carve some victims names into it for some specific atrocity.
Seeking the perfect can be the enemy of the good.
I am againts removing history, it should be remembered to not repeat it, but it should ne kept in museums
i was shocked how many russian moments are still in Norway. what to do with them? norway was liberated by tjem, but on the other hand
If it was not for the USSR resistance in Norway would have been crushed
Their efforts were brave do not get me wrong but lets be real for a second
And far north of Norway was liberated by Soviets directly after they kicked Nazis from Lapland
Stfu, you did jack shit.
yeah i knew that, but the severness of the situation there came to my mind on two roadtrips through norway. (and don't forget vienna/austria)
yeah without the soviets , the story and history would be different during ww2. but it was 80years ago. meanwhile the soviets or russians where not the same heros they where back then. so maybe the monuments should be overthinked
With that logic we would end with no monuments at all
Like removing the statue of Nelson Mandela becose ANC is corrupt
The Soviets co-started WW2 as Nazi allies.
Who did what?
In Slovenia, you get 8 years in prison for damaging ex-Communist dictators monuments
Poles are so far ahead of us, I envy you guys
Good. Fuck em.
Meanwhile in Dresden they are refurbishing them.
Ones that states the war started in 1941 for russia or the ones that says “victory for great russia”.
Hope the monuments get replaced with something better instead of leaving the space blank. Like a monument to Solidarność, or to the Polish soldiers who died helping to liberate Europe.
Could they please send me a handful of gravel from it? I'll find a way to use it in the construction of a toilet.
The Bronze Soldier of Tallinn, 2007
Sadly they moved it - they should have demolished it altogether.
About time.
I hope they melt them down into bullets and send the bullets to Ukraine. Then the Russian steel can be sent back to where it belongs.
Russia is a country that can change totally in one year and not change at all over a century.
Another Soviet-era monument?
But how many have been demolished, and how many remain from the Soviet era?
I thought that since the annexation of Crimea, so many were demolished in the Baltic states, Ukraine (which is obvious), and Poland as well.
Are these being placed in museums or straightup melted. Because they should be preserved for posterity
Bulgaria please do the same with Alyosha
Keep up the good work Poland!!! Well done.
This should be done in orbanistan too! We have a soviet monument in the heart of budapest too, near to parlaiment! Its called "Szabadság tér" (Freedom square) named by commies as if soviets would liberate us... (They occuppied hungary for 45 years...
All Soviet/communist statues needs to be destroyed
Very kurwa good
Awesome! Hopefully Berlin soon as well… especially the statue of “the unknown rapist”. Apparently there is some treaty, but still, it’s disrespectful to the victims of the Red Army
As if Russia cared about treaties. They don't respect them so you don't have to either
Long overdue!
Yo , your grandpa's were hiding red flags with weird black crosses in the basement didn't they?
My city still has a bunch of them and so far there's no initiative taking them down. Some people even lay flowers. Very annoying.
Good. Germany should also demolish their Soviet war memorial in Berlin.
I really can't comprehend how this is a controversial decision. It's a symbol of a bygone era, of a painful era. How can people support keeping monuments to a regime that opressed them. Nobody sees statues of Hitler or Mussolini, right? Then why have statues of Lenin or Stalin that represent an almost equally bad and opressive regime.
Even with Russia 2025 being an openly fascist state, Eastern Europe will never forgive the Soviets for defeating the Nazis.
its always the portuguese who commiesplain for some reason.
Maybe because Soviets enabled the Nazis in their conquests in the first place, or because Soviet "liberation" turned into them imposing totalitarian police states all over Eastern Europe pretty quickly.
Commies sound more and more Confederate each day.
Commies pretend M-L never happened and claim that communist Poland was free. Heck, they're called Tankies precisely for supporting the USSR sending the tanks in to repress any attempts of Eastern Europe to deviate from the Moscow line. If you think you need to be a tankie to celebrate the defeat of the Third Reich I don't know how to help you.
They did, and they deserve criticism for it, but then again they were the last ones to do so, after England, France, Italy and the rest (inc Poland) enabled the Nazi conquests of rearmament, Austria, plus Czechoslovakia. Pretending Mol-Rib didn't exist is only as absurd as pretending it wasn't the last in a long line of Nazi enabling accords.
And Communist Poland was totalitarian under Stalin no doubt about it. But it was Poland, and not an extension of Germany where all Slavic people and Jews were turned to ashes. Yet this is repeatedly lamented by the slavic people living there now.
It wasn't one of these enabling accords, it was an accord of literal alliance and co-aggression...
17 September 1939
Even in 2025 you still don’t get it, Soviet Empire was just Russian Empire with extra steps
I see where you're coming from in regards to feelings, but that's just blatantly untrue because the Soviets could win wars
They won like one war after being half-occupied, supported by land-lease and with allies being actually being fully involved, after losing enormous amount of human lives and resources, and couldn’t stop bragging about for the rest of the century.
Yeah, we wont forgive them for commiting ethnic cleansing and killing or deporting milions.
Look at this idiot not knowing history.
For allying the nazis*
Maybe if they haven't fucked Eastern Europe right after...
We now have room for one more Vatican Monument. How about JPII?
I really wonder why would you with your every second or so post, confirm you're just a vatnik deep inside /u/Gamebyter
Vatican > Russia
So, when are they going to demolish 99% of the housing in Poland?
99%, are you for real, propagandist?
Lmfao you're all crashing the fuck OUT about this fact aren't you. Most housing in Poland is thanks to the communist times. Get rid of them. Put your people in the streets.
Well they are destroying old commie blocks and restoring what had been there before those came in existence.
In a long-run it will definitely be for the best if shitbox commieblocks are replaced with modern architecture, and the process is in fact already undergoing.
Also, it's 1/4 of the housing in Poland tops.
As soon as russia gives back all the stolen wealth and brings back to life all those they murdered
Hahahah! Cry harder russian peasant! XD