EU and USA can threten to blockade Ruzzia and their friends unless they respect the international laws, like close all borders, block the internet and let them thrive in their soviet empire with their dictator friends. Send the oligarchs children back to Moscow too including Putins children . Tell the Zed patriots that this will be liften only when the law is respected.
What would be retarded is to give Putin lands that he can't grab military , the retard has no idea the reality on the ground and is still hoiping is USA agent can gift hims the victory.
I dont think so, the Nazis needed a good clobbering, to remove them from governing Germany. That type of people, will just push on, until they hit a brick wall. The whole idea of redoing WW1, with better end terms, was very strong with them. Maybe if the Versaille treaty, had been more fair, the Nazis would never have won the election. After WW2, with a better constructed peace treaty, this sentiment is pretty weak in comparison..
They would have got it in the Sudetenland, hitler himself didnt believe they could take it by force, the anti-tank fortifications used there are still used today by modern armies and the Skoda works located there were where the germances woukd produce some of their most effecient and effective armoured vehicles used in the early blitzkriegs and later on workorses like the Hetzer.
There is a very very solid argument that if the Brits didnt push the habdover to Hitler that he may have been a brief blip on the political map.
Because ruzzia wants a breakup between USA and EU. Given that Ukraine still doesn't meet a lot of EU criteria, it absolutely can't be accepted in current state. At the same time, Donnie Boy will just repeat every dumb idea if he hears it from a strong man, so planting it in his empty head is an excellent way to drive USA and EU further apart.
Ukraine has the ability to fulfill the requirements more easily than some: it has a highly educated population, an industrial history and natural resources.
break up between US and EU is already done.
By US who:
- put unfair tariffs on EU - 20%
- take money for protecting EU - up to 6% GDP
EU can steal russians assets who will invest in EU? Who will keep money in Belgium? It will be big financial outflow from whole EU.
And russia will definitely win in international courts around the world. European countries has a lot assets abroas who can be claimed by different countries in same way - as a protection.
a random EU negotiator or even the entire EU commission does not have the power to offer EU membership to any country - accepting a new member country requires unanimous agreement and ratification by all current members, which is not happening anytime soon
The point is there'd be an extensive transitional agreement, it's basically a way to get Ukraine into the defense clause without giving them any other EU member rights, those they'd get progressively if and when they're ready.
yeah could work conceptually and avoid the budget issues at least - but it would need enormous contortions to fabricate something that doesn't require unanimous agreement and there are likely a number of firm no-countries
the defence clause is also a sticking point depending on what guarantees the US provides .. many countries have historically been firm no on creating any mutual defence commitment not covered by NATO
It's funny how the EU protections were considered pretty much a paper tiger when they applied to Sweden and Finland prior to their NATO membership, but now the same protections will allegedly protect Ukraine. I hope they've learned from the Budapest Memorandum that pompous words with no substance means very little and accept no substitutes for actual guaranteed military support by real troops with big guns.
I think the goal is to give them a 'partial' membership so to say. Instant access to the EU defense treaty, but a lot of the other privileges would only be unlocked as they gradually fulfill the requirements.
This is simply not possible under the existing laws since the concept of being a "partial" member does not exist. An association agreement between Ukraine the EU would be a more realistic approach.
This is simply not possible under the existing laws since the concept of being a "partial" member does not exist
Every accession to the EU by a new country requires a new EU treaty which has to be agreed on by all member states. Any changes to existing EU law can also be addressed in the same process.
The EU is already a patchwork of exceptions. 2 EU countries did not join Schengen. 7 do not have the Euro. 10 do not levy the Financial Transaction Tax. 6 did not join the Banking Union. The citizens of the 8 countries that joined in 2004 did not get full freedom of movement until 2011. The 2 countries that joined in 2007 got full freedom of movement in 2014. 2 EU countries do not have the EU Blue Card. 3 oped out from the European Public Prosecutor’s Office. 2 do not recognize the Unitary Patent. 1 does not take part in the EU defense cooperation framework. And it goes on an on.
The EEA countries did go through something similar to a membership negotiation process even though they decided not to become members. They had to comply with many of the EU regulations. And even this was a lengthy process. We cannot compare their case with the one of Ukraine, a country in the midst of a long war and that does not comply with any of accession requirements. Ukraine will need to be rebuilt after the war first, prior to be able to discuss seriously about an future membership.
Not "had to", "are". The EEA members are constantly adopting new EU laws and regulations, just like EU member states, it's just a subset of the laws and regulations a full member adapts.
We cannot compare their case with the one of Ukraine
I'm just replying to the part of your comment that says partial membership doesn't exist, it basically does.
Add to that an enormous shift from west to east in the Parliament. All of a sudden the Eastern European countries would have some serious voting power.
Don't see the issue with specifically that, EU would have been way more prepared in dealing in this war if Western Europe didn't dismiss our Russia concerns for years and years
You don't see the issue with established EU politics having a wrench thrown in it by an influx of 40 million slavs?
It most definitely would.
I'm not saying having Ukraine in the EU would be a bad thing, not at all, I'm just saying it would stir the parliamentary pot something fierce, and that sort of disorder would only benefit the enemies of the Union.
People seem to forget that Ukraine isn't exactly the most progressive of societies, to put it nicely. Most likely EU would be inviting in yet another problem child. Accepting Ukraine to EU willynilly would most likely cause backslide on many key issues such as civil liberties and greenhouse emissions.
That and it would cost an absolute fucking boatload, which is why I believe it is mostly posturing right now. Easy points for any goverment to declare support to Ukraine and make vague promises, but the actual price tag of Ukraine joining would be 150b in the current budget based on math done in early 2024. Compare that to the total 7-year budget for EU is a bit 2 trillion and you see the problem.
And that is 150b basically only cohesion and agricultural funding, Ukraine is going to need a lot more to get back up after the war is over. My bet is that bailouts, loans and other forms of financial assistance would be required to keep flowing to Ukraine.
Only Ireland (who opted out) and Cyprus (not allowed while it's divided and therefore not in control of its borders) are in the EU but not Schengen.
Joining the EU makes Schengen an inevitability (unless you opt out). Even Romania and Bulgaria eventually joined Schengen, and they were delayed only because Austria and a few others kept vetoing it.
Yes… if they join the EU it will mean they will eventually join Schengen and the euro .. on an unspecified future date that is subject to everyone agreeing.
FFS. They already have access to EU over emergency refugee programs.
We owe them for dying so that we can live safe. Of course, we have to ensure a good transition. But they deserve a faster lane than others. Their population have shown that they no longer accept Soviet corruption remnants.
I'm kind of confused as to what the hell the US would need to do then: ok fine, Ukraine is part of the EU in 2027.
So if Russia reinvades, it's the EU's problem, since the US does not have any Article 5 obligations via NATO?
Because otherwise, this Administration is pretty clear in hating the EU, and not really liking Zelenskyy all that much to boot. What incentive would we have to step in and provide anything to Ukraine that is part of the EU?
The goal is to destroy the EU, while also offering rebuilt infrastructure for when Russia swallows Ukraine in the next invasion, while, if all else fails, also paint the Europeans as “not willing to walk the talk” for propaganda purposes in both Russia and the US, and even to destroy morale in Ukraine in the sense that “you see, all this blood and the Western Europeans think you’re not worthy of them. Come back to Rusky Mir”
I’m increasingly inclined to agree that Russia won the Cold War. All they had to do was to abandon communism and embrace kleptocratic internationalism - they were able to find the allies in the American elite that they couldn’t find in co-eds wearing Che Guevara shirts.
And considering that, for them, communism was never a real thing and only an excuse, it was only a matter of time before the Soviet security apparatus, once it had taken control of a fossil fuel-rich, export/oriented state, thrived in the slimy world of unrestrained capitalism.
Putin and his ilk going from KGB to the corporate world was basically the geopolitical equivalent of when dromedaries were introduced in Australia.
They occupied a niche they were perfectly suited for that they didn’t even know existed.
It’s the EU that wants this. The only reason they want to do it this way is that they hope the US will pressure the countries that are against Ukraine joining to let them join.
if a peace is signed and the war actually stops and we enter a reconstruction phase, do you really think anyone will care if ukraine joins the EU in 2027, 2028 or later? it's so easy to come up with reasons to delay the process
This comes from the EU, and they're not supposed to become a full member immediately. There'd be an extensive transitional agreement, it's basically a way to get Ukraine into the defense clause without giving them any other EU member rights, those they'd get progressively if and when they're ready.
it's basically a way to get Ukraine into the defense clause without giving them any other EU member rights
Former is already de-facto barring Ukraine from it. None of EU member-states will ever want hard defense agreeements with Ukraine, as it will eventually be reinvaded by russia and losing out on leverage of "we don't owe you anything" is unimaginable.
And dont you think the russians know this? If we have an official defense pact then we either have to fight a war when shit happens, or compeltely lose our creditibility after we refuse - so then they will know we just talk without action. Lose - lose situation
Ukraine wasn't in our defense pact when the war started. We're not obligated to fight wars to defend non-pact members. But you're correct that situations like this have an effect on how seriously our defense commitments are seen. The fact our response to the Ukraine war has been as pathetic as it has harms European safety.
Ukraine would join the EU next year under a proposal backed by Brussels in negotiations to end Russia’s war, a move that would transform the bloc’s approach to admitting new members.
EU accession by January 1 2027 is specified in the latest draft of a peace proposal that Ukrainian and European officials have presented to Washington, people briefed on the document’s contents told the Financial Times.
The plan is a revised version of proposals the Trump administration has made to end the war, a plan that Kyiv and its European allies had seen as tilted towards Russia.
The latest version comes as Donald Trump steps up pressure on Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelenskyy to agree a peace deal by Christmas.
Officials supportive of Ukraine’s EU ambitions said the European Commission now understands it should not derail the peace process by opposing the rapid timeline for Kyiv’s membership.
Ukraine has yet to formally complete even one of the EU’s more than 30 negotiating chapters and the schedule would upend the bloc’s “merit-based” approach to admitting new members.
The people briefed on the peace plan said it would force Brussels to rethink its entire enlargement process, including issues such as the timing of access to EU funds and voting rights.
“There is a zero per cent probability that Ukraine will be a full EU member state on 1 January 2027,” said Mujtaba Rahman, Europe director at Eurasia Group.
“But this commitment could breathe life into Ukraine’s EU bid, and force policymakers to further innovate and expedite Ukraine’s accession process.”
Any decision to admit a new member would have to be backed by all of the EU’s 27 national governments.
But US backing for the peace plan would also mean that Trump could push Hungary’s Viktor Orbán, who has so far held up Ukraine’s accession process, to drop his veto.
“The issue of Ukraine’s future EU membership depends largely on the Europeans — and on the Americans too, in fact,” Zelenskyy told reporters in Kyiv on Thursday.
“If we agree a deal specifying when Ukraine becomes a member of the EU, the Americans, as a party to this agreement, will do everything so that our European path cannot be blocked by others in Europe over whom they have influence,” he added.
Ukraine applied for EU membership shortly after Russia’s full-scale invasion in February 2022, and was granted the status of formal candidate four months later.
The EU’s enlargement commissioner Marta Kos told the FT last month that new member states could be put on “probation” for a few years and excluded from the bloc in case of democratic backsliding, under a proposal aimed at allaying concerns about the impact of new entrants.
Trump said on Thursday that US officials would attend a weekend meeting with European and Ukrainian officials to seek agreement on sticking points on the peace proposals.
He added that the deal had become “a little bit complicated, because you’re cutting up land in a certain way, it’s not the easiest thing, it’s like a complex real estate deal times a thousand”.
Russia has not indicated it will accept any plan that deviates from its maximalist demands for ending the war.
Yuri Ushakov, foreign policy adviser to President Vladimir Putin, said on Friday that Moscow had not yet seen the latest drafts of the US peace plan with input from Ukraine and its European allies.
“When we do see it, I sense that we’re not going to like a lot of it,” Ushakov told reporters.
Ushakov also rejected suggestions that the frontline Donbas region could become a “free economic zone”, an idea being pushed by the Trump administration, if Ukraine withdrew its troops from the territory it controls there.
Russia, which occupies about two-thirds of the Donbas and annexed the entire region in 2022, will not relinquish its territorial claims, he said, in comments quoted by Kommersant.
“This territory will come under full Russian control, by military means if not through negotiations,” he added. “Everything else depends on this alone. A ceasefire can only begin after Ukrainian troops withdraw.”
“If we agree a deal specifying when Ukraine becomes a member of the EU, the Americans, as a party to this agreement, will do everything so that our European path cannot be blocked by others in Europe over whom they have influence,” he added.
Imperialists gonna imperialize.
I don't blame the US for being the arrogant world-policing assholes they are. We empowered them to be so and did exactly nothing to let them think otherwise. A part from a few countries, I might add, but I digress.
I do blame the servile vassalized european states that act solely in the interest of the USA, against European interests, and often even against their own interests.
I think that Ukraine's accession to the EU will be included in the truce in order to somehow compensate Ukrainians for the loss of Donbas. Zelensky needs to show his fellow citizens something positive. Of course, no one will accept Ukraine into the EU in a year's time, but the situation will be different then.
Yeah, this is not realistic. People forget that Ukraine is still a hugely corrupt country but now with a destroyed infrastructure. After the war, it would have to find jobs for all of its discharge soldiers as well. There's no realistic path for Ukraine to join the EU within the next decades.
if they take them in its more of a symbolic move that will make us bleed massive amounts of money. Same reason they consider Moldova which is absolutely not ready to join. Sentiment is better let them weigh us down a bit than to lose them to russia/china/whatever.
If Moldova takes care of its Transnistria problem, it's okay. They are a country of barely 2.5 million people, they cannot bleed EU in any way.
Ukraine, on the other hand, is a country of 40 million (about 10% of the current EU population) with destroyed infrastructure and super corrupt and conservative populace. No sane European wants them to enter the EU in such state. They should be our ally, but that ought to be the extent of our relationship with them.
If the EU can abolish veto, Western Balkans and Moldova should just immediately be accepted.
Either Serbia joins the EU or I personally join some EU member. So yes, our ally. The fact that I'm trapped in here doesn't mean I'm not European. I just hope my country wakes up in time before it's too late.
I agree we should wait and help them rebuild a bit before integrating Ukraine into the EU. They should have to follow the same standards every other country has to follow to get into the EU, and getting rid of as much corruption as possible is definitely a big one.
Obviously this all requires there to be peace first....
Also on another note, don't feel bad about some stupid impulsive people being hostile towards you just because you are from Serbia. I'm not opposed to a theoretical future where Serbian is in the EU, but I'm not sure if it will happen in our lifetime tho lol
With my sympathy for being attacked without their will, they have lots of work to do, especially on rampant oligarchy and corruption. On the other side they have quite good healthcare from what I've heard.
I'd rather transfer one gorillion dollars from the next 10 years of Spanish state budgets to Ukraine in order for them to reform and fight corruption before joining the EU, without guarantee that they will come through, instead of having them join without fulfilling the basic requirements.
A country as corrupt and with such a flimsy democracy as Ukraine in the EU could be such a shitshow that Hungary starts looking like they're good neighbors. Nope. No fucking way. I know the chance of the EU leadership telling the US to fuck off on this issue is slim at best, so I really hope that the Americans realize this is stupid as hell and discard it as this week's harebrained scheme.
And while their accession gets stalled for at least close to a decade, I hope the EU also sorts out its internal contradictions and terrible foreign policy in the meantime.
This would be catastrophic for the EU. Ukraine is far from ready to join and would need huge investments just to keep the country afloat, even after the war. Any possible, but not guaranteed, reparations from Russia would fall far short, and that money would only be enough to bring the country back to where it was before the war. They would drain the rest of the EU budget for decades.
The French once did a calculation. They came up with the result that each member state, except of Bulgaria, would become a net contributor under the current framework.
What EU really needs is more strong economies, with firm and transparent democratic institutions and absolutely no corruption or shady business. So more countries like Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, Ukraine, Serbia. This will turn the EU into the global superpower we desperately want to be seen as.
And it would need to do so for many decades to come. Ukraine would need huge amount of money to get to the point where they were before the war started, which was a corrupt and poor country. We would need to give them at least the amount we've given them so far to get them to the starting point.
And that’s a bad thing? You understand that’s literally what the EU has done- invest in the ‘weaker’ members for prosperity. You just don’t get it, that’s what makes a successful union.
Yes it's a fucking horrible thing to make every single European country a net contributor so we can pay Ukraine, the most corrupt and poorest country in Europe and also hyper conservative and with a fascist undertone. More than enough to destroy the whole union.
They were a borderline autocracy before the war, basically comparable to Russia in the 2000s and early 2010s and they have been continuously getting less democratic since 2010. They are also the single poorest country in Europe and never even got back to Soviet era standards of living. And, of course, they are one of the most corrupt countries in Europe.
With the war they introduced wide ranging emergency laws that are not just used to fight the war, but are also fairly openly weaponized against political rivals. So you can assume they don't plan on even going back to the already quite autocratic pre war status quo. They also haven't had any elections in approaching 7 years. The second largest party has been banned, among several others. Many members of these parties have been imprisoned. A lot of NGOs and media outlets have been shut down or nationalized. Etc. So it is quite obvious there isn't going to be anything remotely like a liberal democracy when this is over and it doesn't seem like the people in charge are all that eager to go in that direction. For that reason alone they should not be allowed into the EU.
Then let's look at the economic fallout. Their industrial centers are nearly all either destroyed or under Russian control. Their entire economy is financed through tens of billions in aid every year and that will have to continue for years after the war, just to avoid ending up a failed state. There are hundreds of billions in war damages that will drag down the economy for decades. They already were on the verge of a demographic apocalypse before the war. Millions have fled, the vast majority women under 50, young men, and children. So exactly the people they need for the future. A large percentage won't return. Now you've got hundreds of thousands of men dead, hundreds of housands more with lifelong disabilities and millions who are traumatized. This isn't something that can be fixed for generations to come. To make things worse, there are very few social safety nets and the state is beyond broke. All that to say, the economic outlook ranges from poor to catastrophic.
Long story short, Ukraine was not even in the remote vicinity of EU membership before the war and had been moving further away from elegibility since Yanukovich back in 2010. Now they are a way, way, way worse candidate in every single way. At the same time the EU has become politically severely unstable and is facing huge economic problems.
Well yeah. But this is really the only option that would keep Ukraine alive. EU is not obliged to take them in, but beware that the alternative is a Ukraine that has their 1 million men army integrated into the Russian army and about the invade Poland.
EU needs to fucking lock the fuck in or perish. EU either takes Ukraine into their fold right about now or lets Ukraine be absorbed into Russia. Obviously the situation is not ideal for Europe, but you are rarely offered ideal solutions in geopolitics.
I would not call a gateway against barbarian state of russia a drain nor the best european army anything less. Security is something we have to pay for eighter way.
They are not ideal circumstances, but Europe is big enough to take it, and Ukraine and its people are assets to the Union.
This is also a moral imperative, to fulfil the promise of the EU. That is more important now than it has ever been. Ukrainians rejected a future aligned with Russia and have been fighting for a common destiny with their European brothers and sisters for over 10 years. They have shed blood, they have lost territory, they have had war crimes and ethnic cleansing inflicted upon them, they have been profoundly betrayed by a people they were historically extremely close to.
The rest of us need to extend a hand and help them make that transition that they have been begging for - to escape Russian influence once and for all. Refusing Ukraine membership at this point would be a betrayal of our values, akin to West Germany refusing reunification with the GDR. Either we go up together, or we will go down together.
Ukraine will be another Hungary, it's not worth it at all. Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries in Europe. The reason we have these conditions is to prevent the EU from collapsing.
Europe has all those too minus all the ores. It’s not only about how much industry and what not you can bring but what you’re asking. Ukraine has a gdp per capita of 5000 USD and about 40 million people living there. They would become the single largest EU funds receivers by far.
Between 2004 and 2007 the EU admitted countries with more than 100 million people in total. Of which in 2007 29 million also with a pretty damn low gdp per capita (Bulgaria and Romania). And those countries prospered quite a bit. So how come the EU can't absorb Ukraine now, when it absorbed a far bigger chunk of poor countries 20 years ago?
This is not about ability, it is about willingness.
The corruption is an issue. The EU needs stronger tools to deal with corruption, even in just the countries that we have now.
That said, Ukraine could definitely be let in on a tiered membership. Start out being just in the EU defence guarantees, then as they start living up to more and more EU requirements, they can gain access to more and more EU privileges (and the duties that come with them).
It would be catastrophic not to do it.Its not about the money, but European security. Ukrainians belong to Europe and both will benefit from it. We had many discussions about other member states as well, but here we have the best land forces and many technology startups. Money will flow into these defense projects and Europe becomes a military powerhouse in 5 years.
The thing is joining the EU will not seriously increase Ukraine’s security. The EU is not a military alliance. Sure it can bolster Ukraine’s economy but they would be still on their own vs Russia.
If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States
shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in
accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. This shall not prejudice the specific
character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States.
Commitments and cooperation in this area shall be consistent with commitments under the North
Atlantic Treaty Organisation, which, for those States which are members of it, remains the foun
dation of their collective defence and the forum for its implementation.
Will not happen. EU has laid out a clear framework of what is required for Ukraine to be allowed into the union and they are not meeting all requirements yet.
Ukraine is not ready to join the EU. Even before the war, there were many structural problems that needed to be resolved. Now it has all of those and infrastructure destroyed by war.
As far as I understand it, the proposal isn't "Ukraine WILL be an EU member by 2027, come what may", but rather that both the EU and Ukraine pledge to work towards ascension, with 2027 being the current deadline. That deadline can and will be extended - possibly by years. But it's easier for both sides to take the ascension process seriously if there's a concrete date attached.
Yeah, there is a reason why the EU has not accepted members since Croatia in 2013. Countries like Albania and Bosnia have currently a lot less issues than modern Ukraine, and yet are already seen as too problematic to be accepted on the EU.
Ukraine indeed tried before (I think in 2014?) and it was denied since several grave problems were found. If memory serves, none of them were addressed. I'd argue they became even worse with the war situation.
Not sure what are the implications of this hypothetical join if it's actually going to happen. Rules for some countries but not for others? Weird.
All the support to Ukraine but Ukraine is larger than any EU country. As a member state it would have more votes than most. It would become a worse nightmare than Hungary, given its corruption. Not for a long time.
This is such bullshit, the Balkans have to undergo 100 different reforms and have to swallow hot steaming horseshit from neighbours who will inevitably make unsavory demands, cherry on top is that this offer is time limited.
Evidently being invaded is good for your prospects of joining the European Union, even if a false and unrealistic promise by the US
It is fundamental to the survival of the European Union that no state is to be admitted as a member, until it is ready, as determined by and under the laws of the European Union and its member states.
This is a terrible, short-sighted idea. What benefit is it to the EU? We already have too many issues with Russian vassal states, Ukraine got rid of their major influence only a decade ago, we have no guarantee how elections will go 5, 10, 15 years from now.
Well, I think theoretically, if the EU changed the rules of entry and created membership tiers that would impose restrictions on lower-tier members, it would be possible. Although the very situation of the EU reshaping its political structure is hardly possible.
As much as i support Ukraine in their battle against the war criminal Putin, i would not want them in the EU just yet. Please show us that after peace has come, you can get a stabil democratic gouvernement that can fight against corruption and has a proper free press. The last thing we need is another Hungary in the EU.
What is the significance of joining the EU? Will the EU cover Ukraine's reconstruction costs? Does the EU plan to provide large-scale subsidies to Ukraine?
They are also not yet ready to join the EU and we should not repeat out mistakes with romanian-bulgarian lack of reform upon entry.
They will likely be joining the EU if current trajectory continues, some decades into the future. That is fine, they dont need to be a part of EU decisionmaking for us to cooperate on defence.
No country could join the EU without going through the membership negotiation. If the EU would accept to lower the accesion bar that much, it will be the end of the union.Ukraine's road map is at least 10 to 15 years long if not more. The proposal for a such a fantasy comes almost certainly from Trump's mind who wants to undermine the EU as he repeatedly stated. The impression I have is that Trump is pushing for ideas that he knows they will be unacceptable to Europeans so he can blame the EU for not signing an agreement.
Russians won't agree to any peace plans - only to unconditional surrender.
~40% of Europeans still think of Ukrainians as expendable meat shields at best and subhuman scum at worst, and will go to the grave clinging to this view.
We're happy to help Ukraine defend itself against Russia and help it along on its path to become a country with the economic, fiscal, political and structural conditions necessary to meet the criteria for admission to the EU.
But we're not going to shoot ourselves in the foot by admitting Ukraine in its current state and shoulder all the fiscal and legal obligations that come with it!
Ain't happening. Even if it happens I do not think that Ukrainian elites are actually ready to start reform the country and making things transparent. Ukraine is still a country of oligarchs, they have been playing the West for the past decades jumping between Russia and the EU, whatever was more convenient at the moment. Society wants peace but the oligarchy wants to make money after all...
Everyone in here complaining about Ukraine joining the EU: Don't worry, Russia will never allow that to happen. You can go back to pretending you give a shit about Ukrainians now.
I am of course sorry for what happened in ukraine but joining the EU is based very much on meritocracy and fulfilling negotiations ,you don’t wake up a random day and decide you’ll join the EU (especially in the case of a country with tens of millions of inhabitants)…there’s a lot of steps and it takes a lot of time, otherwise some candidate countries(like mine) that have been candidates for a long time now should have joined a long time ago.
I’d love to see Ukraine in the EU but let’s see how peace plays out first. If Zelenskky somehow loses the next election and a Russian sympathiser is installed, then this will cause chaos within the EU with yet another Orban figure vetoing all over the place.
I think what EU needs to do at the moment is to create some "half-membership" status where half-members get
rotating representation in EU Commission
reduced (say, like a country half of their population) representation in EU parliament (e.g. Ukraine is represented not like a ~40M Poland but like a ~20M Romania)
a right to cherry pick/opt in or out EU policies depending on their needs (they can join or not join)
no automatic application of four freedom of movements (goods, people, capital and services) but some legislative favoring towards citizens/goods/companies/banks of half member states
no unanimity requirement to be a half member state.
I'd say not only Ukraine but also UK and even Turkey could be interested with such a thing. These countries will likely be the "bridges" (so not exactly europe but not outside europe either) between europe and other cultural spheres: UK with other anglo-saxon countries (Canada, US, Australia and New Zealand) and perhaps commonwealth nations, Ukraine with Russia&Belarus (yes, ironically), Turkey with Muslim&Turkic&Caucasian countries. I could even add a speculative Iberian federation to bbe the bridge with latin american countries, but that's up to them to decide (and there's no particular interest atm)
I'm sorry, I sympathize with Ukraine's plight but I don't want a country dominated by Timur Mindich and thousands of his corrupt oligarch clones to be in EU.
what does EU countries benefit by admitting Ukraine to EU?
EU countries tax payers would end up paying for the rebuild of Ukraine, influx of refugees and EU under constant threat from Russia
After reading some of the comments, I'm upset that Ukraine cannot make some sort of corridor for Russians to visit our EU neighbours. Will see how these fuckers are gonna fight using their rules and frameworks. I hope Ukraine's politicians are smart enough to join Trump in the effort to have Europeans for their balls.
If I'm not mistaken, you're from Sweden, which is sending quite a lot of military help to Ukraine.
Basically, it looks like you're quite happy to see Ukrainian soldiers die to keep the Russian threat far away from your borders, but they should expect absolutely nothing in return since Ukrainians are just "backwater" cannon fodder or something... Is this what you mean?
The thing is: are we helping Ukraine, or is Ukraine protecting us?
You think someone in your country would be ready to pick up a gun and fight for real? I don't know about you, but it's been ages since my country (France) had to fight off a foreign invasion, and it did not go that well...
Mate you are making money on having Poland in EU, it's not like the money is blown on buying iphones and jewelry. 30% of the funds go back directly to the western companies, the business you make in our country is also making you a lot of profits so stop making it look like we are getting some charity support form you. It's a business transaction good for both parties
There is a tiny detail. UA-EU relations are not governed from USA.
Yep. It's same like the US peace plan was just assuming their frozen assets were theirs to do with as they wanted.
The "American" "peace" plan is just a Russian plan. We are all adults here.
Yep, the ol'copy and paste into Google translate.
The good old annexation of some "insignificant" Czechoslovakian territories in 1938.
The same territories that had the most important fortifications.
Maybe WWII would not happen if Sudetes weren't given for free?
EU and USA can threten to blockade Ruzzia and their friends unless they respect the international laws, like close all borders, block the internet and let them thrive in their soviet empire with their dictator friends. Send the oligarchs children back to Moscow too including Putins children . Tell the Zed patriots that this will be liften only when the law is respected.
What would be retarded is to give Putin lands that he can't grab military , the retard has no idea the reality on the ground and is still hoiping is USA agent can gift hims the victory.
I dont think so, the Nazis needed a good clobbering, to remove them from governing Germany. That type of people, will just push on, until they hit a brick wall. The whole idea of redoing WW1, with better end terms, was very strong with them. Maybe if the Versaille treaty, had been more fair, the Nazis would never have won the election. After WW2, with a better constructed peace treaty, this sentiment is pretty weak in comparison..
They would have got it in the Sudetenland, hitler himself didnt believe they could take it by force, the anti-tank fortifications used there are still used today by modern armies and the Skoda works located there were where the germances woukd produce some of their most effecient and effective armoured vehicles used in the early blitzkriegs and later on workorses like the Hetzer. There is a very very solid argument that if the Brits didnt push the habdover to Hitler that he may have been a brief blip on the political map.
Which is literally what this administration seems capable of. They glaze tech oligarchs but themselves they’re not capable of any sophistication.
Why would russia want ukraine to join the EU?
Because ruzzia wants a breakup between USA and EU. Given that Ukraine still doesn't meet a lot of EU criteria, it absolutely can't be accepted in current state. At the same time, Donnie Boy will just repeat every dumb idea if he hears it from a strong man, so planting it in his empty head is an excellent way to drive USA and EU further apart.
Ukraine has the ability to fulfill the requirements more easily than some: it has a highly educated population, an industrial history and natural resources.
break up between US and EU is already done. By US who: - put unfair tariffs on EU - 20% - take money for protecting EU - up to 6% GDP
EU can steal russians assets who will invest in EU? Who will keep money in Belgium? It will be big financial outflow from whole EU.
And russia will definitely win in international courts around the world. European countries has a lot assets abroas who can be claimed by different countries in same way - as a protection.
According to the article, it’s part of the revised proposal from the Eu.
a random EU negotiator or even the entire EU commission does not have the power to offer EU membership to any country - accepting a new member country requires unanimous agreement and ratification by all current members, which is not happening anytime soon
Yes, that's also in the article...
The point is there'd be an extensive transitional agreement, it's basically a way to get Ukraine into the defense clause without giving them any other EU member rights, those they'd get progressively if and when they're ready.
yeah could work conceptually and avoid the budget issues at least - but it would need enormous contortions to fabricate something that doesn't require unanimous agreement and there are likely a number of firm no-countries
the defence clause is also a sticking point depending on what guarantees the US provides .. many countries have historically been firm no on creating any mutual defence commitment not covered by NATO
It's funny how the EU protections were considered pretty much a paper tiger when they applied to Sweden and Finland prior to their NATO membership, but now the same protections will allegedly protect Ukraine. I hope they've learned from the Budapest Memorandum that pompous words with no substance means very little and accept no substitutes for actual guaranteed military support by real troops with big guns.
surely the EU isnt that crazy, right
You say this but European leaders act like the US has veto Over All European foreign policy
And don't get mad at me get mad at your leaders who act like they are American vassal States
Actually wild, can't make this shit up.
Americans: Ukraine will join EU as part of peace treaty to ensure security and development (with no US involvement)
Also Americans: The EU is bad and we're going to be working to undermine it and try to break it up... because we care ofc.
Joining Ukraine as a full member inside of the year will probably work well to undermine EU as a whole.
A lot of cheap stuff and labour xoming into EU market, whilst current members losing a chunk of cohesion money.
I think the goal is to give them a 'partial' membership so to say. Instant access to the EU defense treaty, but a lot of the other privileges would only be unlocked as they gradually fulfill the requirements.
This is simply not possible under the existing laws since the concept of being a "partial" member does not exist. An association agreement between Ukraine the EU would be a more realistic approach.
Every accession to the EU by a new country requires a new EU treaty which has to be agreed on by all member states. Any changes to existing EU law can also be addressed in the same process.
The EU is already a patchwork of exceptions. 2 EU countries did not join Schengen. 7 do not have the Euro. 10 do not levy the Financial Transaction Tax. 6 did not join the Banking Union. The citizens of the 8 countries that joined in 2004 did not get full freedom of movement until 2011. The 2 countries that joined in 2007 got full freedom of movement in 2014. 2 EU countries do not have the EU Blue Card. 3 oped out from the European Public Prosecutor’s Office. 2 do not recognize the Unitary Patent. 1 does not take part in the EU defense cooperation framework. And it goes on an on.
It kind of does, we just call those EEA members (Norway, Iceland, Lichtenstein).
The EEA countries did go through something similar to a membership negotiation process even though they decided not to become members. They had to comply with many of the EU regulations. And even this was a lengthy process. We cannot compare their case with the one of Ukraine, a country in the midst of a long war and that does not comply with any of accession requirements. Ukraine will need to be rebuilt after the war first, prior to be able to discuss seriously about an future membership.
Not "had to", "are". The EEA members are constantly adopting new EU laws and regulations, just like EU member states, it's just a subset of the laws and regulations a full member adapts.
I'm just replying to the part of your comment that says partial membership doesn't exist, it basically does.
Add to that an enormous shift from west to east in the Parliament. All of a sudden the Eastern European countries would have some serious voting power.
Don't see the issue with specifically that, EU would have been way more prepared in dealing in this war if Western Europe didn't dismiss our Russia concerns for years and years
You don't see the issue with established EU politics having a wrench thrown in it by an influx of 40 million slavs?
It most definitely would.
I'm not saying having Ukraine in the EU would be a bad thing, not at all, I'm just saying it would stir the parliamentary pot something fierce, and that sort of disorder would only benefit the enemies of the Union.
What does being a slav have to do with it ?
Kinda sounded like one of these people who think Slavs are second class citizens. Gives 1940s vibes 🤮
Why is it important to mention that they are slavic?
Old western racism again, Ukrainians are fine for dying not having in the parliament I guess.
Ukraine-Hungary-Poland bloc could be real scary
People seem to forget that Ukraine isn't exactly the most progressive of societies, to put it nicely. Most likely EU would be inviting in yet another problem child. Accepting Ukraine to EU willynilly would most likely cause backslide on many key issues such as civil liberties and greenhouse emissions.
That and it would cost an absolute fucking boatload, which is why I believe it is mostly posturing right now. Easy points for any goverment to declare support to Ukraine and make vague promises, but the actual price tag of Ukraine joining would be 150b in the current budget based on math done in early 2024. Compare that to the total 7-year budget for EU is a bit 2 trillion and you see the problem.
And that is 150b basically only cohesion and agricultural funding, Ukraine is going to need a lot more to get back up after the war is over. My bet is that bailouts, loans and other forms of financial assistance would be required to keep flowing to Ukraine.
Not to mention the crime, corruption. Adding Ukraine to Schengen is unacceptable
EU ≠ Schengen
Only Ireland (who opted out) and Cyprus (not allowed while it's divided and therefore not in control of its borders) are in the EU but not Schengen.
Joining the EU makes Schengen an inevitability (unless you opt out). Even Romania and Bulgaria eventually joined Schengen, and they were delayed only because Austria and a few others kept vetoing it.
Yes… if they join the EU it will mean they will eventually join Schengen and the euro .. on an unspecified future date that is subject to everyone agreeing.
FFS. They already have access to EU over emergency refugee programs.
We owe them for dying so that we can live safe. Of course, we have to ensure a good transition. But they deserve a faster lane than others. Their population have shown that they no longer accept Soviet corruption remnants.
You are not thinking in economics
Fast trackinh Ukraine will destroy EU for certain. Even 2004 expansion round was likely too fast, apsrt from Czechia and Slobenia, maybe Estonia
I believe its a EU porpuse, not US .
This is a proposal cobbled together by the EU.
I'm kind of confused as to what the hell the US would need to do then: ok fine, Ukraine is part of the EU in 2027.
So if Russia reinvades, it's the EU's problem, since the US does not have any Article 5 obligations via NATO?
Because otherwise, this Administration is pretty clear in hating the EU, and not really liking Zelenskyy all that much to boot. What incentive would we have to step in and provide anything to Ukraine that is part of the EU?
"can't make this shit up"......proceeds to make this shit up
The goal is to destroy the EU, while also offering rebuilt infrastructure for when Russia swallows Ukraine in the next invasion, while, if all else fails, also paint the Europeans as “not willing to walk the talk” for propaganda purposes in both Russia and the US, and even to destroy morale in Ukraine in the sense that “you see, all this blood and the Western Europeans think you’re not worthy of them. Come back to Rusky Mir”
I’m increasingly inclined to agree that Russia won the Cold War. All they had to do was to abandon communism and embrace kleptocratic internationalism - they were able to find the allies in the American elite that they couldn’t find in co-eds wearing Che Guevara shirts.
And considering that, for them, communism was never a real thing and only an excuse, it was only a matter of time before the Soviet security apparatus, once it had taken control of a fossil fuel-rich, export/oriented state, thrived in the slimy world of unrestrained capitalism.
Putin and his ilk going from KGB to the corporate world was basically the geopolitical equivalent of when dromedaries were introduced in Australia.
They occupied a niche they were perfectly suited for that they didn’t even know existed.
? According to the article, this is part of the proposal being put forward by the EU and Ukraine as a counter-proposal to what Trump wanted.
You can make it up, because you just did.
Can't really expect people to read anything but the headline here.
these 2 points works perfectly. Ultra fast track for Ukraine would mean HUGE destabilisation of the entire EU. Farmers riots everywhere, to start with
This comment makes no sense.
This makes perfect sense once you realise the trump admin III is staffed by incompetent cretin degenerates.
It’s the EU that wants this. The only reason they want to do it this way is that they hope the US will pressure the countries that are against Ukraine joining to let them join.
they are hoping the pressure will go away
if a peace is signed and the war actually stops and we enter a reconstruction phase, do you really think anyone will care if ukraine joins the EU in 2027, 2028 or later? it's so easy to come up with reasons to delay the process
So...... two weeks?
Trump's not that serious of a person he's going to forget he made this request if he ignores him and finds a way to distract him.
Trump just says things and people take him seriously because he has a lot of power.
But it's very rare that he actually cares strongly about a topic
Putin wants his soldiers in Kyiv by the Orthodox Christmas, so his faithful servants try to make it happen for him.
Read the article people.
This comes from the EU, and they're not supposed to become a full member immediately. There'd be an extensive transitional agreement, it's basically a way to get Ukraine into the defense clause without giving them any other EU member rights, those they'd get progressively if and when they're ready.
Former is already de-facto barring Ukraine from it. None of EU member-states will ever want hard defense agreeements with Ukraine, as it will eventually be reinvaded by russia and losing out on leverage of "we don't owe you anything" is unimaginable.
What defense clause? Does the EU have an army? If the individual EU counties want to defend Ukraine what stops them from doing it today?
Article 42.7 TEU
Not wanting to fight a war? The clause is supposed to prevent a conflict, that doesn't mean the EU will want to enter in an active one.
And dont you think the russians know this? If we have an official defense pact then we either have to fight a war when shit happens, or compeltely lose our creditibility after we refuse - so then they will know we just talk without action. Lose - lose situation
Ukraine wasn't in our defense pact when the war started. We're not obligated to fight wars to defend non-pact members. But you're correct that situations like this have an effect on how seriously our defense commitments are seen. The fact our response to the Ukraine war has been as pathetic as it has harms European safety.
Ukraine would join the EU next year under a proposal backed by Brussels in negotiations to end Russia’s war, a move that would transform the bloc’s approach to admitting new members.
EU accession by January 1 2027 is specified in the latest draft of a peace proposal that Ukrainian and European officials have presented to Washington, people briefed on the document’s contents told the Financial Times.
The plan is a revised version of proposals the Trump administration has made to end the war, a plan that Kyiv and its European allies had seen as tilted towards Russia.
The latest version comes as Donald Trump steps up pressure on Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelenskyy to agree a peace deal by Christmas.
Officials supportive of Ukraine’s EU ambitions said the European Commission now understands it should not derail the peace process by opposing the rapid timeline for Kyiv’s membership.
Ukraine has yet to formally complete even one of the EU’s more than 30 negotiating chapters and the schedule would upend the bloc’s “merit-based” approach to admitting new members.
The people briefed on the peace plan said it would force Brussels to rethink its entire enlargement process, including issues such as the timing of access to EU funds and voting rights.
“There is a zero per cent probability that Ukraine will be a full EU member state on 1 January 2027,” said Mujtaba Rahman, Europe director at Eurasia Group.
“But this commitment could breathe life into Ukraine’s EU bid, and force policymakers to further innovate and expedite Ukraine’s accession process.”
Any decision to admit a new member would have to be backed by all of the EU’s 27 national governments.
But US backing for the peace plan would also mean that Trump could push Hungary’s Viktor Orbán, who has so far held up Ukraine’s accession process, to drop his veto.
“The issue of Ukraine’s future EU membership depends largely on the Europeans — and on the Americans too, in fact,” Zelenskyy told reporters in Kyiv on Thursday.
“If we agree a deal specifying when Ukraine becomes a member of the EU, the Americans, as a party to this agreement, will do everything so that our European path cannot be blocked by others in Europe over whom they have influence,” he added.
Ukraine applied for EU membership shortly after Russia’s full-scale invasion in February 2022, and was granted the status of formal candidate four months later.
The EU’s enlargement commissioner Marta Kos told the FT last month that new member states could be put on “probation” for a few years and excluded from the bloc in case of democratic backsliding, under a proposal aimed at allaying concerns about the impact of new entrants.
Trump said on Thursday that US officials would attend a weekend meeting with European and Ukrainian officials to seek agreement on sticking points on the peace proposals.
He added that the deal had become “a little bit complicated, because you’re cutting up land in a certain way, it’s not the easiest thing, it’s like a complex real estate deal times a thousand”.
Russia has not indicated it will accept any plan that deviates from its maximalist demands for ending the war.
Yuri Ushakov, foreign policy adviser to President Vladimir Putin, said on Friday that Moscow had not yet seen the latest drafts of the US peace plan with input from Ukraine and its European allies.
“When we do see it, I sense that we’re not going to like a lot of it,” Ushakov told reporters.
Ushakov also rejected suggestions that the frontline Donbas region could become a “free economic zone”, an idea being pushed by the Trump administration, if Ukraine withdrew its troops from the territory it controls there.
Russia, which occupies about two-thirds of the Donbas and annexed the entire region in 2022, will not relinquish its territorial claims, he said, in comments quoted by Kommersant.
“This territory will come under full Russian control, by military means if not through negotiations,” he added. “Everything else depends on this alone. A ceasefire can only begin after Ukrainian troops withdraw.”
fuck that.
now the US decides on who joins the EU?
Imperialists gonna imperialize.
I don't blame the US for being the arrogant world-policing assholes they are. We empowered them to be so and did exactly nothing to let them think otherwise. A part from a few countries, I might add, but I digress.
I do blame the servile vassalized european states that act solely in the interest of the USA, against European interests, and often even against their own interests.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/kremlin-says-joining-eu-is-ukraines-sovereign-right-2025-02-18/
It's not a news apart from the rush timeline. Russia already agreed to Ukraine joining the EU earlier this year.
Their core demands is a non-NATO Ukraine with Crimea, Lugansk, Donetsk.
I think that Ukraine's accession to the EU will be included in the truce in order to somehow compensate Ukrainians for the loss of Donbas. Zelensky needs to show his fellow citizens something positive. Of course, no one will accept Ukraine into the EU in a year's time, but the situation will be different then.
Ukraine joins the EU in demanding the EU assume Ukraine's debt to the US.
A brilliant move.
You realize European union leaders proposed this right?
In this sub Europe does no wrong
Just because “daddy” told them to do so.
without complying with the requirements? many countries may be angry
Yeah, this is not realistic. People forget that Ukraine is still a hugely corrupt country but now with a destroyed infrastructure. After the war, it would have to find jobs for all of its discharge soldiers as well. There's no realistic path for Ukraine to join the EU within the next decades.
if they take them in its more of a symbolic move that will make us bleed massive amounts of money. Same reason they consider Moldova which is absolutely not ready to join. Sentiment is better let them weigh us down a bit than to lose them to russia/china/whatever.
If Moldova takes care of its Transnistria problem, it's okay. They are a country of barely 2.5 million people, they cannot bleed EU in any way.
Ukraine, on the other hand, is a country of 40 million (about 10% of the current EU population) with destroyed infrastructure and super corrupt and conservative populace. No sane European wants them to enter the EU in such state. They should be our ally, but that ought to be the extent of our relationship with them.
If the EU can abolish veto, Western Balkans and Moldova should just immediately be accepted.
Serbian talking about ”our ally” as if Serbia is ever getting into the EU
Serbia is 100% right, Ukraine would destroy the eu faster than anything else
Either Serbia joins the EU or I personally join some EU member. So yes, our ally. The fact that I'm trapped in here doesn't mean I'm not European. I just hope my country wakes up in time before it's too late.
I agree we should wait and help them rebuild a bit before integrating Ukraine into the EU. They should have to follow the same standards every other country has to follow to get into the EU, and getting rid of as much corruption as possible is definitely a big one.
Obviously this all requires there to be peace first....
Also on another note, don't feel bad about some stupid impulsive people being hostile towards you just because you are from Serbia. I'm not opposed to a theoretical future where Serbian is in the EU, but I'm not sure if it will happen in our lifetime tho lol
Yeah there is no way at all they can actually join the eu that fast
It’s not, and neither is a fast track to NATO for several of the same reasons.
Why not join the US?
Why giving the orange man ideas :D
No time for that. It is busy creating a conflict for "liberating" Venezuela ('s oil)
If Ukraine joined the EU it would be a huge hit to an already weak organization. Right wing parties would get a boost.
At first I was opposed to them joining but now that you say "Right wing parties would get a boost." you make it attractive...
Impossible.
With my sympathy for being attacked without their will, they have lots of work to do, especially on rampant oligarchy and corruption. On the other side they have quite good healthcare from what I've heard.
I'd rather transfer one gorillion dollars from the next 10 years of Spanish state budgets to Ukraine in order for them to reform and fight corruption before joining the EU, without guarantee that they will come through, instead of having them join without fulfilling the basic requirements.
A country as corrupt and with such a flimsy democracy as Ukraine in the EU could be such a shitshow that Hungary starts looking like they're good neighbors. Nope. No fucking way. I know the chance of the EU leadership telling the US to fuck off on this issue is slim at best, so I really hope that the Americans realize this is stupid as hell and discard it as this week's harebrained scheme.
And while their accession gets stalled for at least close to a decade, I hope the EU also sorts out its internal contradictions and terrible foreign policy in the meantime.
Just look at Poland. No war and still 15 years of transformation in order to improve barely enough to be let in.
This would be catastrophic for the EU. Ukraine is far from ready to join and would need huge investments just to keep the country afloat, even after the war. Any possible, but not guaranteed, reparations from Russia would fall far short, and that money would only be enough to bring the country back to where it was before the war. They would drain the rest of the EU budget for decades.
^ This!
The French once did a calculation. They came up with the result that each member state, except of Bulgaria, would become a net contributor under the current framework.
What EU really needs is more strong economies, with firm and transparent democratic institutions and absolutely no corruption or shady business. So more countries like Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, Ukraine, Serbia. This will turn the EU into the global superpower we desperately want to be seen as.
Hey, my country Bulgaria is corrupt just like the others and you didn't mention it..
Think you skipped a word there.
EU has been keeping Ukraine afloat financially since 2022 anyway. Also article 42 says hi.
And it would need to do so for many decades to come. Ukraine would need huge amount of money to get to the point where they were before the war started, which was a corrupt and poor country. We would need to give them at least the amount we've given them so far to get them to the starting point.
And that’s a bad thing? You understand that’s literally what the EU has done- invest in the ‘weaker’ members for prosperity. You just don’t get it, that’s what makes a successful union.
Yes it's a fucking horrible thing to make every single European country a net contributor so we can pay Ukraine, the most corrupt and poorest country in Europe and also hyper conservative and with a fascist undertone. More than enough to destroy the whole union.
They were a borderline autocracy before the war, basically comparable to Russia in the 2000s and early 2010s and they have been continuously getting less democratic since 2010. They are also the single poorest country in Europe and never even got back to Soviet era standards of living. And, of course, they are one of the most corrupt countries in Europe.
With the war they introduced wide ranging emergency laws that are not just used to fight the war, but are also fairly openly weaponized against political rivals. So you can assume they don't plan on even going back to the already quite autocratic pre war status quo. They also haven't had any elections in approaching 7 years. The second largest party has been banned, among several others. Many members of these parties have been imprisoned. A lot of NGOs and media outlets have been shut down or nationalized. Etc. So it is quite obvious there isn't going to be anything remotely like a liberal democracy when this is over and it doesn't seem like the people in charge are all that eager to go in that direction. For that reason alone they should not be allowed into the EU.
Then let's look at the economic fallout. Their industrial centers are nearly all either destroyed or under Russian control. Their entire economy is financed through tens of billions in aid every year and that will have to continue for years after the war, just to avoid ending up a failed state. There are hundreds of billions in war damages that will drag down the economy for decades. They already were on the verge of a demographic apocalypse before the war. Millions have fled, the vast majority women under 50, young men, and children. So exactly the people they need for the future. A large percentage won't return. Now you've got hundreds of thousands of men dead, hundreds of housands more with lifelong disabilities and millions who are traumatized. This isn't something that can be fixed for generations to come. To make things worse, there are very few social safety nets and the state is beyond broke. All that to say, the economic outlook ranges from poor to catastrophic.
Long story short, Ukraine was not even in the remote vicinity of EU membership before the war and had been moving further away from elegibility since Yanukovich back in 2010. Now they are a way, way, way worse candidate in every single way. At the same time the EU has become politically severely unstable and is facing huge economic problems.
Well yeah. But this is really the only option that would keep Ukraine alive. EU is not obliged to take them in, but beware that the alternative is a Ukraine that has their 1 million men army integrated into the Russian army and about the invade Poland.
EU needs to fucking lock the fuck in or perish. EU either takes Ukraine into their fold right about now or lets Ukraine be absorbed into Russia. Obviously the situation is not ideal for Europe, but you are rarely offered ideal solutions in geopolitics.
The problem is if they take Ukraine in next year, right wing eurosceptic parties are winning elections in like 5-10 countries.
Yeah. Ukraine isnt popular with the right-wing folks
I would not call a gateway against barbarian state of russia a drain nor the best european army anything less. Security is something we have to pay for eighter way.
They are a drain and security can be provided without membership
They are not ideal circumstances, but Europe is big enough to take it, and Ukraine and its people are assets to the Union.
This is also a moral imperative, to fulfil the promise of the EU. That is more important now than it has ever been. Ukrainians rejected a future aligned with Russia and have been fighting for a common destiny with their European brothers and sisters for over 10 years. They have shed blood, they have lost territory, they have had war crimes and ethnic cleansing inflicted upon them, they have been profoundly betrayed by a people they were historically extremely close to.
The rest of us need to extend a hand and help them make that transition that they have been begging for - to escape Russian influence once and for all. Refusing Ukraine membership at this point would be a betrayal of our values, akin to West Germany refusing reunification with the GDR. Either we go up together, or we will go down together.
Ukraine will be another Hungary, it's not worth it at all. Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries in Europe. The reason we have these conditions is to prevent the EU from collapsing.
What assets are you bringing
Aviation industry, shipbuilding industry, rocket and missile R&D, steelmills, ores
Europe has all those too minus all the ores. It’s not only about how much industry and what not you can bring but what you’re asking. Ukraine has a gdp per capita of 5000 USD and about 40 million people living there. They would become the single largest EU funds receivers by far.
Between 2004 and 2007 the EU admitted countries with more than 100 million people in total. Of which in 2007 29 million also with a pretty damn low gdp per capita (Bulgaria and Romania). And those countries prospered quite a bit. So how come the EU can't absorb Ukraine now, when it absorbed a far bigger chunk of poor countries 20 years ago?
This is not about ability, it is about willingness.
The corruption is an issue. The EU needs stronger tools to deal with corruption, even in just the countries that we have now.
That said, Ukraine could definitely be let in on a tiered membership. Start out being just in the EU defence guarantees, then as they start living up to more and more EU requirements, they can gain access to more and more EU privileges (and the duties that come with them).
Because all those countries were are more "ready" than Ukraine is now and were not at war with Russia.
Because even the largest mafiosi/oligarchs of Bulgaria & Romania combined are small fray compated to Ukrainian oligarchs.
Food
It would be catastrophic not to do it.Its not about the money, but European security. Ukrainians belong to Europe and both will benefit from it. We had many discussions about other member states as well, but here we have the best land forces and many technology startups. Money will flow into these defense projects and Europe becomes a military powerhouse in 5 years.
Saying Ukraine belongs to Europe is like saying Russians belong to Europe (which they do)
The thing is joining the EU will not seriously increase Ukraine’s security. The EU is not a military alliance. Sure it can bolster Ukraine’s economy but they would be still on their own vs Russia.
Treaty of the European Union, Article 42 Item 7
It’s a pretty vague statement to be honest.
in all fairness the wording is stronger than NATO art5
the EU is a military alliance. it's not as involved as NATO but each member are sworn mutual assistance.
As a fellow european, i really hope not.
Will not happen. EU has laid out a clear framework of what is required for Ukraine to be allowed into the union and they are not meeting all requirements yet.
Does not meet any requirements so far
This is a terrible idea and it would be the last nail in the coffin of eu.
Ukraine is not ready to join the EU. Even before the war, there were many structural problems that needed to be resolved. Now it has all of those and infrastructure destroyed by war.
As far as I understand it, the proposal isn't "Ukraine WILL be an EU member by 2027, come what may", but rather that both the EU and Ukraine pledge to work towards ascension, with 2027 being the current deadline. That deadline can and will be extended - possibly by years. But it's easier for both sides to take the ascension process seriously if there's a concrete date attached.
More like "indefinitely"
Yeah, there is a reason why the EU has not accepted members since Croatia in 2013. Countries like Albania and Bosnia have currently a lot less issues than modern Ukraine, and yet are already seen as too problematic to be accepted on the EU.
Ukraine indeed tried before (I think in 2014?) and it was denied since several grave problems were found. If memory serves, none of them were addressed. I'd argue they became even worse with the war situation.
Not sure what are the implications of this hypothetical join if it's actually going to happen. Rules for some countries but not for others? Weird.
Not to mention how the Poles and Romanians would likely veto it. Though it looks like veto powers for member states might be vanishing soon.
All the support to Ukraine but Ukraine is larger than any EU country. As a member state it would have more votes than most. It would become a worse nightmare than Hungary, given its corruption. Not for a long time.
It would have less votes than Germany, France, Italy and Spain. The votes are not the biggest issue, the veto is.
It's corruption is about comparable to Bulgarias.
Obviously not, since we seem to be getting into the eurozone and already got into Schengen...
It’s obviously way worse than Bulgaria and we are pretty bad
This is such bullshit, the Balkans have to undergo 100 different reforms and have to swallow hot steaming horseshit from neighbours who will inevitably make unsavory demands, cherry on top is that this offer is time limited.
Evidently being invaded is good for your prospects of joining the European Union, even if a false and unrealistic promise by the US
It just won’t happen, not anytime soon. My country had to work so hard for a decade to be included.
Ukraine is welcome if they fix their issues.
Only if the net contributing burden on us is not increased.
does the EU know that?
BS Ukraine isn't ready, by a long shot. Corrupt, broken, and lacking necessary institutions
It is fundamental to the survival of the European Union that no state is to be admitted as a member, until it is ready, as determined by and under the laws of the European Union and its member states.
Now lets see how hypocrites would say that the plan is bad and UKR is not ready for the EU.
UA is definitely not ready for the EU. How is this hypocritical?
Holy fucking shit the double standards of this subreddit.
Can you explain what you mean?
That's totally crazy and wild. None of the conditions for joining the EU have been met. Pure populism, actionism and a very bad idea.
Uh, no it wouldn't. That's not how it works.
This is a terrible, short-sighted idea. What benefit is it to the EU? We already have too many issues with Russian vassal states, Ukraine got rid of their major influence only a decade ago, we have no guarantee how elections will go 5, 10, 15 years from now.
Well, I think theoretically, if the EU changed the rules of entry and created membership tiers that would impose restrictions on lower-tier members, it would be possible. Although the very situation of the EU reshaping its political structure is hardly possible.
As much as i support Ukraine in their battle against the war criminal Putin, i would not want them in the EU just yet. Please show us that after peace has come, you can get a stabil democratic gouvernement that can fight against corruption and has a proper free press. The last thing we need is another Hungary in the EU.
Daft peace plan..
What is the significance of joining the EU? Will the EU cover Ukraine's reconstruction costs? Does the EU plan to provide large-scale subsidies to Ukraine?
They are also not yet ready to join the EU and we should not repeat out mistakes with romanian-bulgarian lack of reform upon entry.
They will likely be joining the EU if current trajectory continues, some decades into the future. That is fine, they dont need to be a part of EU decisionmaking for us to cooperate on defence.
edit: word
Well, that's wild.
In any case, I suppose there are some prerequisits to meet.
I remember, agriculture was not up to standards, to name one?
No country could join the EU without going through the membership negotiation. If the EU would accept to lower the accesion bar that much, it will be the end of the union.Ukraine's road map is at least 10 to 15 years long if not more. The proposal for a such a fantasy comes almost certainly from Trump's mind who wants to undermine the EU as he repeatedly stated. The impression I have is that Trump is pushing for ideas that he knows they will be unacceptable to Europeans so he can blame the EU for not signing an agreement.
lol, dream on.
This would disrupt the entire EU economy . Absolutely no thanks
Ukraine will be welcomed to the EU at anytime
Russia won't like this one bit. The mutual defense part of the EU contract is even more demanding that the NATO contract is.
Which is good! Because f... what Russia currently wants.
F RUSSIA!!!
Sadly this all seems true.
Can't really disagree with either of you.
If they do this, the European project is dead.
fuck no , ukraine should be treated like every other country
Aaaaabso-fucking-lutely not.
We're happy to help Ukraine defend itself against Russia and help it along on its path to become a country with the economic, fiscal, political and structural conditions necessary to meet the criteria for admission to the EU.
But we're not going to shoot ourselves in the foot by admitting Ukraine in its current state and shoulder all the fiscal and legal obligations that come with it!
Ain't happening. Even if it happens I do not think that Ukrainian elites are actually ready to start reform the country and making things transparent. Ukraine is still a country of oligarchs, they have been playing the West for the past decades jumping between Russia and the EU, whatever was more convenient at the moment. Society wants peace but the oligarchy wants to make money after all...
Everyone in here complaining about Ukraine joining the EU: Don't worry, Russia will never allow that to happen. You can go back to pretending you give a shit about Ukrainians now.
I am of course sorry for what happened in ukraine but joining the EU is based very much on meritocracy and fulfilling negotiations ,you don’t wake up a random day and decide you’ll join the EU (especially in the case of a country with tens of millions of inhabitants)…there’s a lot of steps and it takes a lot of time, otherwise some candidate countries(like mine) that have been candidates for a long time now should have joined a long time ago.
I’d love to see Ukraine in the EU but let’s see how peace plays out first. If Zelenskky somehow loses the next election and a Russian sympathiser is installed, then this will cause chaos within the EU with yet another Orban figure vetoing all over the place.
Must be nice.
I welcome Ukraine to the EU but I don’t expect it to be pretty.
Eh, no thanks!!
This would be a disaster for the EU!
Congrats to west Europe, prepare more money transferring to Ukraine going forward.
I think what EU needs to do at the moment is to create some "half-membership" status where half-members get
I'd say not only Ukraine but also UK and even Turkey could be interested with such a thing. These countries will likely be the "bridges" (so not exactly europe but not outside europe either) between europe and other cultural spheres: UK with other anglo-saxon countries (Canada, US, Australia and New Zealand) and perhaps commonwealth nations, Ukraine with Russia&Belarus (yes, ironically), Turkey with Muslim&Turkic&Caucasian countries. I could even add a speculative Iberian federation to bbe the bridge with latin american countries, but that's up to them to decide (and there's no particular interest atm)
I'm sorry, I sympathize with Ukraine's plight but I don't want a country dominated by Timur Mindich and thousands of his corrupt oligarch clones to be in EU.
Bullshit
what does EU countries benefit by admitting Ukraine to EU? EU countries tax payers would end up paying for the rebuild of Ukraine, influx of refugees and EU under constant threat from Russia
Yeah fuck no.
As much as I am in support of Ukraine, they are very, very far away from joining the EU.
After reading some of the comments, I'm upset that Ukraine cannot make some sort of corridor for Russians to visit our EU neighbours. Will see how these fuckers are gonna fight using their rules and frameworks. I hope Ukraine's politicians are smart enough to join Trump in the effort to have Europeans for their balls.
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Turkey is in a way better shape than Ukraine ever was.
If I'm not mistaken, you're from Sweden, which is sending quite a lot of military help to Ukraine.
Basically, it looks like you're quite happy to see Ukrainian soldiers die to keep the Russian threat far away from your borders, but they should expect absolutely nothing in return since Ukrainians are just "backwater" cannon fodder or something... Is this what you mean?
what Ukraine gets in return is those weapons.
Ukraine is free to refuse all EU help.
Ironically, TEKEVER wouldn't have carved their chunk of drone market without enthusiastic work with AFU.
But go on, EU doesn't need actual testing of equipment in live-fire conditions, I guess. BuOrd wasn't wrong or something.
The thing is: are we helping Ukraine, or is Ukraine protecting us?
You think someone in your country would be ready to pick up a gun and fight for real? I don't know about you, but it's been ages since my country (France) had to fight off a foreign invasion, and it did not go that well...
LOL next year 😉
Plenty of negative views from people with no post or comment history. Interesting…
I get what you're implying, but post histories are hidden by default.
Welcome Ukraine, as a Pole, I welcome you.
Finally Poland can become a net contributer to the EU.
Mate you are making money on having Poland in EU, it's not like the money is blown on buying iphones and jewelry. 30% of the funds go back directly to the western companies, the business you make in our country is also making you a lot of profits so stop making it look like we are getting some charity support form you. It's a business transaction good for both parties