Better to keep expectations in check. A decompilation results in a recreation of the source code that will compile into an exact match of the original game. In this case, the GCN version of TP.
That means the project as it is can only run on a GameCube, and nothing but that. It expects to use the original hardware's APIs, inputs, outputs, etc.
For a project like this to turn into something you can run on a PC, for example, someone has to go through the painstaking process of porting the code into something that can run natively in that system. This means going through low level calls to see how the game used to operate, finding how the GameCube handled those calls, and then coming up with modern, native equivalents you can use to recreate that functionality. That goes for everything from graphics, to sounds, to inputs, to saving... It's a lot, to say the least.
Modding the game would come way after at least some basic implementations of the above, when developers are more comfortable with the code and they can decide on a framework to handle modding.
So, don't expect a port anywhere near soon. Realistically, it's at least some years away.
Super informative post and definitely the best reply. With that being said, Don’t let this distract you from the fact that Hector is going to be running 3 Honda Civics with spoon engines, and on top of that, he just went into Harry’s and bought three t66 turbos with nos, and a motec system exhaust.
I just wanted to say thank you as well for this wonderful and informative explanation of this. I imagine that – compared to the N64 – it will take much longer to find suitable compatible calls for every function and other section of code. I do hope that the secret gorilla level from Twilight Princess can be ported over successfully, though.
Not necessarily. Believe it or not, GameCube emulation is in a much more mature and stable place than N64 emulation.
While they are not directly interchangeable, the same base level understanding has to go into both projects. Ergo, I think we will get work imports out of this much sooner than people realize
I disagree. Unlike Dolphin, Ares has pixel perfect rendering, full low level emulation, accurate timings and no game specific hacks. People like to talk shit about N64 emulation, but the truth is that we have it mostly figured out by now.
But also, I'm not sure why it even matters. Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess aren't niche games that use obscure and undocumented hardware features, they're among the most popular games for their respective consoles and we've figured out pretty much everything there is to know about emulating them ages ago.
I think the more important thing is surface. Which game has the largest volume of low level code that need to be rewritten? My guess would be Twilight Princess. The GameCube hardware can and does do a whole lot more than the N64, so there should be a whole lot more to implement.
N64 emulation has pretty solid commercial game support, but I don't know of any N64 emulator that passes all of the system tests, much less properly emulates some of the weirder "features" of the N64 that were not used/abused in any commercial game.
Kaze Emanuar, an N64 game modder who has also been rewriting SM64, has done a number of videos about the weirder features of the N64 and optimizing games. He's pointed out that some of those optimizations don't work on emulators, and that modders sometimes have to choice between only writing their game to work on real hardware or having to avoid certain tricks so it will also work on an emulator.
Recently, he even did a video comparing a real N64 to both Ares and the Analogue 3D, and neither Ares nor the A3D get everything right.
That is not true that it will likely take years. I bet we will have something playable within 3-6 months. There is so much wrong with this post that it is bordering on the laughable, and just the sprinkling of enough truths in there to make it sound plausible. Nobody should trust what is being said here. I could spend an hour writing about how wrong it is, but instead, let's let time be the judge.
Yeah, doesn’t the compiler obviously determine how immediately usable the source code is for other systems? Now, maybe no compiler exists that can compile the code except in the way the commenter said, but that would imply GameCube used its own unique programming language or something, like nobody has ever done porting work in a systematic way? (Yes I know it’s possible that the developed tools may be in Nintendo’s vault only, but.)
Didn’t GameCube devs often use C? As for the API stuff, and libraries for compilation, I guess maybe there’s some holes that need work but it doesn’t seem as bad as the comment said. Porting work, yes (and we should never underestimate the work of unpaid volunteers) but timeline depends on the skills and interest of unpaid volunteers who contribute.
Nothing about what the commenter said implies the GameCube used its own programming language. Yes, GameCube games are generally written in C and yes, C is portable, but being written in C doesn't equal being portable. Like the commenter said, the low level calls aren't portable. That mean graphics, sounds, saving, input and more are going to need to be ported to computer APIs or libraries like OpenGL and SDL. But also, I think saying it would take several years is being way too pessimistic.
I meant that a situation where source code (from decompilation) needs years to be compileable and useable on PC sounds like a situation where the programming is unheard of (or that the project people know so little about it personally that it might as well be unheard of or its own language). And graphics, sound, saving, input, are highly developed and I think documented on the emulation side although hardware emu is different from software port, but the technical methods/systems are known and established.
OOT PC port was ~2 years for the decompilation and like 4 months from that to PC port (I’m clueless about difference between N64 and GameCube in terms of decomp though). PCSX2 native port to Mac was less than a year with basically one person working on it (I don’t mean to underestimate the amount of work). Neither of these is exactly analogous, especially in uncharted territory, but just as a couple reference points.
I think the general rule is that timeline doesn’t depend on technological factors, as counterintuitive as that sounds, but largely on the interest and skills of unpaid volunteers who get involved.
Naw, someone will crap out a vibe coded mess that at least plays fine here in a few weeks. Its a new world, and dolphin mastered all those low level mappings years ago, and the ai's have been trained on them for years as well.
Awesome!! I know it doesn't guarantee a PC port would happen but I am still very excited at the idea of it. Twilight Princess being split across 3 different platforms with their own features makes the idea of a native running customizable/modded version very appealing to me.
Twilight Princess being split across 3 different platforms with their own features makes the idea of a native running customizable/modded version very appealing to me
Why? Meaning what exactly? Do you just mean the different versions maybe have some different separate features that could be mega-combined into a catch-all version?
Why does the existence of the 3 versions make the idea of a PC version “very appealing”?
I don't blame you for asking a followup question, because I was also a little confused by their wording. But why is your comment written like a teacher leaving notes on a bad essay answer?
If a person can’t decide between those, that means they don’t really care in the first place.
A person has an interest in playing a game, or they have an imaginary meaningless figment of excitement based on marketing and hype with no real interest.
I mean this as lovingly as possible but Zelda fans, specifically 3D Zelda fans can have that autistic hyper focus near the same level as sonic fans, I think we’ll have it in a year tops but that’s me being super optimistic of course
Very underrated Zelda. I put it right behind Ocarina of Time. Huge campaign, interesting dark twist, lots of really epic moments (that spinner boss fight!!).
People really fucking hated this game ten years ago. From my online memories
Err...no?
It was absurdly well received by fans. Maybe you are mistaking it with Wind Waker, which was (at the time) despised by fans that wanted a "serious tone" Zelda game, in fact TP reveal is probably among the top 10 most hyped gamed reveals of all time.
The only negative came from the Wii version, that had mandatory waggle controls.
I think its popularity has grown as the people who played it as a kid have gotten older and become nostalgic for it. 10 years ago, it was more commonly a forgotten title regarded as a poor attempt at a darker, edgier direction for the series.
Conversely, OoT was distinctly more beloved 10 years ago. These days people are more willing to acknowledge its flaws.
The game sold substantially more than Wind Waker and was considered an actual successor to OoT and MM.. And nobody forgot it, that's just a bizarre take..
It sold, yes, but COD sells incredible numbers as well. Doesn’t mean people don’t dogpile on it and hate it endlessly online. Sales and Critical Reception are not the same thing.
For Twilight Princess, people were especially pissed off at all the re-releases. Not getting a single Wii U-exclusive Zelda game + being fed overexposed remasters rubbed people the wrong way on this game.
Disagree heavily. The art style is IMHO the worst part of the game. I love it for the really cool diverse dungeons (SnowPEAK is aptly named), and one of the better stories of the series.
Yeah, I don't like the art style, the piss filter and heavy bloom. Man, I hate the yellow piss filter. Probably the reason I haven't played again after finishing it at the time. I didn't like the wolf Link part too and the melancholic music/vibe.
for end use its nothing, as long there is nothing to play with that decompile, since you are so strong on keyboard go contribute to repos speed it up, you got this champ!
It would definetly run better, but looking better is hard to say, it would look just like the og but at a higher resolution, so textures and the like won't change unless you mod it. It should still look better by virtue of improving framerate and resolution alone tho.
Basically guaranteed to run better if/when there is a PC port. Looking better is dependent on the modding community, but also almost guaranteed to happen.
At the very least, expect the game to run at above 30fps/720p
It'll look at least as good as an emulated wii u version with the resolution bumped up. I forget if the wii u version had significantly better textures than the wii/gc versions but custom texture support is likely. Also if it's anything like the other decompilation ports it'll support high (>60fps) framerates too.
It'll look at least as good as an emulated wii u version with the resolution bumped up
It will look at least as good as the emulated GameCube version, not the WiiU version which uses higher res textures. Or at least until texture and model mod support is added to the game.
Looking better is debatable, unless someone makes an HD texture pack (which has been done for games like OoT and MM and makes a positively massive difference)
afaik the nvidia shield release had a debug executable left in it or something like that and they were able to use it as a reference to speed things up
That’s great to hear. I’ve never played it. I’ve just seen people complain about it fairly consistently on critiques of the game. It’s not like I’ve been avoiding it. I’ve just been playing other stuff. Glad you didn’t find it to be a problem.
Ship Of Harkinian: Twilight Drift coming soon.
Better to keep expectations in check. A decompilation results in a recreation of the source code that will compile into an exact match of the original game. In this case, the GCN version of TP.
That means the project as it is can only run on a GameCube, and nothing but that. It expects to use the original hardware's APIs, inputs, outputs, etc.
For a project like this to turn into something you can run on a PC, for example, someone has to go through the painstaking process of porting the code into something that can run natively in that system. This means going through low level calls to see how the game used to operate, finding how the GameCube handled those calls, and then coming up with modern, native equivalents you can use to recreate that functionality. That goes for everything from graphics, to sounds, to inputs, to saving... It's a lot, to say the least.
Modding the game would come way after at least some basic implementations of the above, when developers are more comfortable with the code and they can decide on a framework to handle modding.
So, don't expect a port anywhere near soon. Realistically, it's at least some years away.
There is a compatibility layer that is being built precisely to handle that translation of system calls to a native level called Aurora, here's the repo if anyone wants to follow or contribute to the development.
Super informative post and definitely the best reply. With that being said, Don’t let this distract you from the fact that Hector is going to be running 3 Honda Civics with spoon engines, and on top of that, he just went into Harry’s and bought three t66 turbos with nos, and a motec system exhaust.
I really thought I was about to get shittymorphed there
I got that reference
I just wanted to say thank you as well for this wonderful and informative explanation of this. I imagine that – compared to the N64 – it will take much longer to find suitable compatible calls for every function and other section of code. I do hope that the secret gorilla level from Twilight Princess can be ported over successfully, though.
Not necessarily. Believe it or not, GameCube emulation is in a much more mature and stable place than N64 emulation.
While they are not directly interchangeable, the same base level understanding has to go into both projects. Ergo, I think we will get work imports out of this much sooner than people realize
I disagree. Unlike Dolphin, Ares has pixel perfect rendering, full low level emulation, accurate timings and no game specific hacks. People like to talk shit about N64 emulation, but the truth is that we have it mostly figured out by now.
But also, I'm not sure why it even matters. Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess aren't niche games that use obscure and undocumented hardware features, they're among the most popular games for their respective consoles and we've figured out pretty much everything there is to know about emulating them ages ago.
I think the more important thing is surface. Which game has the largest volume of low level code that need to be rewritten? My guess would be Twilight Princess. The GameCube hardware can and does do a whole lot more than the N64, so there should be a whole lot more to implement.
N64 emulation has pretty solid commercial game support, but I don't know of any N64 emulator that passes all of the system tests, much less properly emulates some of the weirder "features" of the N64 that were not used/abused in any commercial game.
Kaze Emanuar, an N64 game modder who has also been rewriting SM64, has done a number of videos about the weirder features of the N64 and optimizing games. He's pointed out that some of those optimizations don't work on emulators, and that modders sometimes have to choice between only writing their game to work on real hardware or having to avoid certain tricks so it will also work on an emulator.
Recently, he even did a video comparing a real N64 to both Ares and the Analogue 3D, and neither Ares nor the A3D get everything right.
That's great to hear. I can't wait to "go ape" in Ship of Harkinian 3: Twilight Gorilla.
Tldr : twilight drift is happening
That is not true that it will likely take years. I bet we will have something playable within 3-6 months. There is so much wrong with this post that it is bordering on the laughable, and just the sprinkling of enough truths in there to make it sound plausible. Nobody should trust what is being said here. I could spend an hour writing about how wrong it is, but instead, let's let time be the judge.
Yeah, don't waste your time debunking the parent comment. It's from a gamergate troll. Just check their history.
Yeah, doesn’t the compiler obviously determine how immediately usable the source code is for other systems? Now, maybe no compiler exists that can compile the code except in the way the commenter said, but that would imply GameCube used its own unique programming language or something, like nobody has ever done porting work in a systematic way? (Yes I know it’s possible that the developed tools may be in Nintendo’s vault only, but.)
Didn’t GameCube devs often use C? As for the API stuff, and libraries for compilation, I guess maybe there’s some holes that need work but it doesn’t seem as bad as the comment said. Porting work, yes (and we should never underestimate the work of unpaid volunteers) but timeline depends on the skills and interest of unpaid volunteers who contribute.
SOURCE: I don’t know anything about programming.
Nothing about what the commenter said implies the GameCube used its own programming language. Yes, GameCube games are generally written in C and yes, C is portable, but being written in C doesn't equal being portable. Like the commenter said, the low level calls aren't portable. That mean graphics, sounds, saving, input and more are going to need to be ported to computer APIs or libraries like OpenGL and SDL. But also, I think saying it would take several years is being way too pessimistic.
I meant that a situation where source code (from decompilation) needs years to be compileable and useable on PC sounds like a situation where the programming is unheard of (or that the project people know so little about it personally that it might as well be unheard of or its own language). And graphics, sound, saving, input, are highly developed and I think documented on the emulation side although hardware emu is different from software port, but the technical methods/systems are known and established.
OOT PC port was ~2 years for the decompilation and like 4 months from that to PC port (I’m clueless about difference between N64 and GameCube in terms of decomp though). PCSX2 native port to Mac was less than a year with basically one person working on it (I don’t mean to underestimate the amount of work). Neither of these is exactly analogous, especially in uncharted territory, but just as a couple reference points.
I think the general rule is that timeline doesn’t depend on technological factors, as counterintuitive as that sounds, but largely on the interest and skills of unpaid volunteers who get involved.
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Best comment super informative
What about having an AI assist in doing all that?
Surely that would cut the timeframe down drastically?
Naw, someone will crap out a vibe coded mess that at least plays fine here in a few weeks. Its a new world, and dolphin mastered all those low level mappings years ago, and the ai's have been trained on them for years as well.
2 Harkinian : 2 Drift (ocarnian collectors edition)
I asked them a couple of weeks ago, and they said they will not make a port.
Link to the message: https://discord.com/channels/808039310850130000/935566284890980443/1443615822072512623
Awesome!! I know it doesn't guarantee a PC port would happen but I am still very excited at the idea of it. Twilight Princess being split across 3 different platforms with their own features makes the idea of a native running customizable/modded version very appealing to me.
Why? Meaning what exactly? Do you just mean the different versions maybe have some different separate features that could be mega-combined into a catch-all version?
Why does the existence of the 3 versions make the idea of a PC version “very appealing”?
And why didn’t the comment explain?
Because people can mod that PC version and have the features from all 3 versions in one.
I don't blame you for asking a followup question, because I was also a little confused by their wording. But why is your comment written like a teacher leaving notes on a bad essay answer?
Great news. I hope this leads to a moddable PC port!
Oh it will, just a matter of time
This is so awesome!!! Can't wait! It's my second favorite Zelda
What’s your first?
Can't decide between Ocarina of Time/Tears of the Kingdom and Minish Cap
Random question lol, if all of those are fighting for the first position, wouldn’t TP be your fourth favorite one?
Edit: typo
Irrelevant trivia.
That just describes all of Reddit. If anything, your comment is redundant and rude
If a person can’t decide between those, that means they don’t really care in the first place.
A person has an interest in playing a game, or they have an imaginary meaningless figment of excitement based on marketing and hype with no real interest.
Oh wow, you know me so well. Please draw me like one of your french girls Leonardo
Very cool
Hopefully we get a PC port.
Paper Mario was decompiled what over 3 years ago and I don't think there is a PC port yet.
Same for Zelda Minish Cap.
And banjo kazooie
And that's surprising, considering how beloved Banjo Kazooie is.
I mean this as lovingly as possible but Zelda fans, specifically 3D Zelda fans can have that autistic hyper focus near the same level as sonic fans, I think we’ll have it in a year tops but that’s me being super optimistic of course
Very underrated Zelda. I put it right behind Ocarina of Time. Huge campaign, interesting dark twist, lots of really epic moments (that spinner boss fight!!).
Will be great to see it modernized.
I really wish the switch entries had adopted more of the swordplay from TP. Had the best combat of the series IMO
I think it’s up there, equal to BOTW and TotK. Hard to find real flaws imho.
It’s gonna be epic one the pc version allows making some things optional and faster :)
Underrated? Really?
People really fucking hated this game ten years ago. From my online memories
Err...no?
It was absurdly well received by fans. Maybe you are mistaking it with Wind Waker, which was (at the time) despised by fans that wanted a "serious tone" Zelda game, in fact TP reveal is probably among the top 10 most hyped gamed reveals of all time.
The only negative came from the Wii version, that had mandatory waggle controls.
I think its popularity has grown as the people who played it as a kid have gotten older and become nostalgic for it. 10 years ago, it was more commonly a forgotten title regarded as a poor attempt at a darker, edgier direction for the series.
Conversely, OoT was distinctly more beloved 10 years ago. These days people are more willing to acknowledge its flaws.
The game sold substantially more than Wind Waker and was considered an actual successor to OoT and MM.. And nobody forgot it, that's just a bizarre take..
What they said was the mainstream opinion on any message board I was on as well. People did not like the tone or style.
Also selling more is a terrible metric. There are more people who play video games every year.
I'm just speaking anecdotally from what I remember. Maybe I'm mistaken, but that was certainly my experience reading discussions back then.
It sold, yes, but COD sells incredible numbers as well. Doesn’t mean people don’t dogpile on it and hate it endlessly online. Sales and Critical Reception are not the same thing.
For Twilight Princess, people were especially pissed off at all the re-releases. Not getting a single Wii U-exclusive Zelda game + being fed overexposed remasters rubbed people the wrong way on this game.
Really. I’d say it’s close to OOT and I rarely see it mentioned with the same praise.
Gotta be the most overrated Zelda game easily imo, fans love it because of the art style but it was a weaker entry in the series.
Disagree heavily. The art style is IMHO the worst part of the game. I love it for the really cool diverse dungeons (SnowPEAK is aptly named), and one of the better stories of the series.
Yeah, I don't like the art style, the piss filter and heavy bloom. Man, I hate the yellow piss filter. Probably the reason I haven't played again after finishing it at the time. I didn't like the wolf Link part too and the melancholic music/vibe.
Guess a new playthrough is imminent.
Hold your horses, Banjo was decompiled year ago and nothing has been done with it since
the problem is that everyone expects things to happen. by someone else.
get the code and port it. don't complain that nothing "has been done".
I'd love to but unfortunately, I don't know how to do that.
for end use its nothing, as long there is nothing to play with that decompile, since you are so strong on keyboard go contribute to repos speed it up, you got this champ!
Funny of you to say that when you were the one who complained in the first place
commenting and complaining are not the same
Complaint #3 😱
Will a PC port run and look better than Wii U version?
It would definetly run better, but looking better is hard to say, it would look just like the og but at a higher resolution, so textures and the like won't change unless you mod it. It should still look better by virtue of improving framerate and resolution alone tho.
Basically guaranteed to run better if/when there is a PC port. Looking better is dependent on the modding community, but also almost guaranteed to happen.
At the very least, expect the game to run at above 30fps/720p
It'll look at least as good as an emulated wii u version with the resolution bumped up. I forget if the wii u version had significantly better textures than the wii/gc versions but custom texture support is likely. Also if it's anything like the other decompilation ports it'll support high (>60fps) framerates too.
It will look at least as good as the emulated GameCube version, not the WiiU version which uses higher res textures. Or at least until texture and model mod support is added to the game.
Looking better is debatable, unless someone makes an HD texture pack (which has been done for games like OoT and MM and makes a positively massive difference)
Hype can't wait for the gba port
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuv-ynbx5LI
Can't wait for another impossible port to Dreamcast 😁
one of my fav games ever. I really hope fans make a remake or smt with this omggggg
Can't wait for the PC port!
Hopefully the necessary assets can still be extracted from the Wii version. The GameCube version has always been hard to find in comparison
Fun fact, next year (Which i a few days away now) is TP 20th anniversary. What a way to celebrate
How was TP fully decompiled before WW? I'd have expected older games on the same platform to be decompiled more quickly.
I'd love a native WW with all the QoL stuff from the WiiU version.
It would seem that a larger team with a huge amount of passion for TP formed a year or two ago and decided to manhandle TP’s code
Hopefully WW gets the same dedication soon
I thought there would be more players passionate with WW than TP. But since TP plays a bit like a more modern version of OoT, it kinda makes sense!
afaik the nvidia shield release had a debug executable left in it or something like that and they were able to use it as a reference to speed things up
Looking forward to the Videogame Esooooo----
---ooooooooterica video.
Was ocarina ever decompiled? I know mm was
Literally the only zelda i played through.
Yeah OOT has been decompiled a few years longer than MM I believe
Check out ship of harkinian if you’d like to play the pc port of OOT
Oh ok thanks
Will this be the first GameCube game ported to PC by community?
Cool. I’ve waited to play this. I was kind of hoping someone would figure out a way to speed up the tutorial. I’ve heard it’s excessive.
Honestly it’s only an issue if you’ve already played it and have to play it again, but the vibes are good regardless.
Good to know. Thanks. I obviously don’t know the extent of it, but it’s been consistent amongst YouTube reviews I’ve seen.
such a non issue lmao
This dude is straight up saying he never got around to playing a
fifteentwenty year old game because the intro is an hour long.Gotta be bait. Nobody can actually live like this
I rarely get a full, uninterrupted hour to play video games.
If you get some self-respect and care about time being obnoxiously wasted, then it would be easy to understand.
Having 20 years of opportunity doesn’t matter if the thing starts off with an obnoxious unfun tedious waste of time.
That’s great to hear. I’ve never played it. I’ve just seen people complain about it fairly consistently on critiques of the game. It’s not like I’ve been avoiding it. I’ve just been playing other stuff. Glad you didn’t find it to be a problem.
Whoo!
If this ever happened to Wind Waker that would mean true 60 FPS finally?!
Please port the game to other platforms. This game is soooo goood!
Well I’m glad I stopped my cemu playthrough because man that 30fps felt worse than MM’s 22 before the recomp.
i already played it 20 years ago