Normally EMS, Police, and Fire are excluded in minimum wage due to the built in OT, however with the passing of the current legislation starting on the 1st all workers will get paid at minimum 15 dollars an hour.
EMTs working an 48/96 schedule should stand to make 50k MINIMUM gross excluding any picked up overtime. Big deal for rural EMS aswell as the practice of “buying the night” will go away as now all 24 hours will be paid for regardless of a call at night.
Obviously it will remove the incentive for going to medic school, causing even more of a shortage but raising medic pay due to the even decreasing supply of medics.
If this change is effecting your district what is your district preparing to do
I mean, yay. But at the same time what the fuck?
Exactly. How is this something to celebrate? That’s not a livable wage.
It’s not great but it’s something. I wish they’d do that in Oklahoma, Mercy still starts their 911 EMTs at $12, transfer truck gets $13.
That’s insane. I don’t understand how that’s even possible, but obviously it is.
Overtime. I’m from the area, but not in EMS anymore but it was common when I worked the vast majority of people, including myself, worked a minimum of 60-72 hours a week to survive.
I’m well aware, I’m on a 72 hour shift right now with 96 hours this week total lol. I get paid $15.45 though at a different service so slightly better, I’m honestly not really that upset at my pay and half the time I’d rather be at work so it’s fine for me but still ridiculous because I’m aware that I’m not the majority in that. I think Okmulgee county pays roundabout $13-$14 an hour as well.
Lovely example of the Orphan crushing machine.
r/OrphanCrushingMachine
What would Missouri pay for other random jobs? Like I see Buccees, McDonalds etc posted around on the internet with decent wages, but not sure if that applies in the area.
I've only ever driven through Missouri so not very familiar. I know wages in the SE are atrocious for RNs...
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It’s a shit deal. It’s a terrible market structure combined with political apathy that makes for hell on earth in regards to pay.
I don't know what country you're from and I'm not saying that this justifies it at all, but EMT-B is not really comparable to anything in most of the developed world's EMS. It's usually a few weeks to 1 semester of education max and can do little beyond bandaging, oxygen admin, and driving. Compare this to Canada where PCP is generally a minimum of 1 year and more equivalent to AEMT in America. Or Germany where all paramedics do a 3 year program and a large part of the system is staffed with physicians. Etc. Both pay and education requirements need to be increased.
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EMS in America is driven by private companies or municipalities trying to scrape by with the bare minimum. The lack of the established power and reputation of fire and police means we largely are not considered essential or "worth it". Any politician who seriously proposed privatizing the fire department or police would almost certainly be destroyed. The public doesn't blink when it happens to EMS. EMT-Bs with a few weeks of training on a truck is "good enough", so why change it?
And the takeover by fire is another problem related to it. No politician wants to downsize or defund a fire department so it's much more politically preferable to just merge them. FD doesn't have any cuts and you don't have to pay for another department. And FDs love it because it justifies their bloated budgets in the face of a massively reduced call-volume. Even in non-transporting/non-EMS FDs, around 70-80% of their call volume will be medical calls.
Sorry. Went off on a bit of a tangential rant there.
in many areas with which i'm familiar it's completely merged, ie XYZ county Fire Rescue, i think fire is the ems service
That's what I'm referring to by "take over" and "merge", yeah. It's a common model as fire departments scramble to maintain relevance. It can make in some places like extremely rural and poor counties, but it's generally a shitty model for everywhere else.
There are EMR's who have a similiar scope to EMT's in Canada. Not too common however. But they do start out at the low 20's, at least in SK. As you said, PCP is the usual starting point.
We also have an "EMR" which is basically just a driver who can do CPR (to over simplify) and you usually only see in super rural areas, yeah. Cops will also often have it. Your EMR seems like an in between of our EMR and EMT. At least according to the PAC NOCP.
Low $20s CAD would also be starting pay for EMTs in a lot of services. We start at $18 USD (~$25 CAD) at my service, but you go one county over and it's more like $14 USD (~$19 CAD). We also start medics at $24 USD (~34 CAD) , which I think is an absurdly low pay in itself, but even more so an absurd increase from EMT to PMD for the degree of scope and responsibility difference between the two roles.
Used to be that seeing an EMR on truck was so rare, now it's like every rural service has one
To me - I understand that EMTs in most places of the US have little to no scope of practice - but where they lack in skills they should make up for hazard pay. The things you expose yourself to, the inherent risk of driving code 3, and the liability of everything means you should be making above minimum wage.
Fastfood workers shouldn't make more than an EMS worker for that reason.
Hazard pay is a much more subjective thing than education. Especially in govt-funded fields like EMS. How do you decide which fields are dangerous "enough" to get hazard pay within a government pay schedule? And what levels would there be to it?
Obviously, I don't disagree that the greater dangers in this job should lend to higher pay. I've been assaulted more times than I can count and it's the same for my coworkers. However, I think that we should expect more education for our roles and higher pay should be hinged upon that, foremost.
Edit to add: and scope of practice varies so greatly. I think that standardizing and addressing that should also be a priority. EMTs in New Jersey, for instance, only very recently even became able to do BGLs. While EMTs in Florida have been able to do things like start IVs for years.
I'll never understand why EMTs can't use glucometers or even in some places apply a 12 lead.
I'm convinced the US healthcare system is just a giant trial study with how varying county to county and state to state protocols are.
I respect that you say it doesn't justify it, but I always found the "well EMT is a semester long" statement to be missing a ton of info. Tying the pay to the level of education is great as education keeps increasing, but we (as a society) are willfully ignoring the workload that goes into being an EMT. So if you compare lets say an EMT to an ED tech, the EMT in the field is responsible for the following:
Driving to the call in a large vehicle
"Registering" the patient: starting the EMS pcr with the demographics, history and then outlining the assessment treatment
-Performing a basic assessment/triage
-Performing basic treatments
-Packaging and securing the patient to a transfer device
-Moving the patient from their home to the ambulance. Depending on where you work, you might be lifting/carrying that patient down multiple flights of stairs and across uneven terrain
-Monitoring the patient in the back or driving the large vehicle to the hospital
-Providing a report, re-registering the patient with the hospital system, decontaminating and restocking the ambulance.
So a single person in the field is performing the work of multiple people in the ED. Combine that with call volume, staging, missing meals/holidays, working outdoors in all types of weather, etc. So we need to stop looking at EMTs as being only worth the semester of school they receive. Instead we need to value/pay our EMTs for the shit ton of work they are performing for EACH patient they have to respond to.
To be fair though, that’s only on a basic truck. I recently left my ED tech job but I did both at the same time, and being an EMT on an ALS truck is INFINITELY easier.
For real. I live in a Blue State, and even here the pay isn’t that great. Example I was in EMT School, and one of the Medics says, “and eventually if you go Paramedic you can make up to $35 an hour”. My young classmates were impressed, but I was thinking “damn, I’m gonna be taking a SERIOUS pay cut taking this job…”
I was a paramedic making $12.50 an hour when I left my job in 2017. I started out as an EMT-IV making minimum wage however many years before that. They acted like I should be thankful for going from minimum wage to $12.50 an hour.
It’s also Missouri.
Wages are low all around in Missouri
I’m in Florida, my agency went to $15/hr a few years ago because this was coming. It was a great catalyst for more change. There’s still plenty of motivation for medic school considering we will be going to 24/72 with medics making ~ 67k/year starting. I will hit my 5 years at the beginning of the year. I made $12.42/hr when I started. When we go to the new schedule, I’ll be over $31/hr.
The main point atleast that I’ve seen is why do medic school and make 60k currently (it’s projected to go to 70k but no garenteed moves at this time) when you can drive, and get reports able to be finished in 15 minutes for 50k without any of the main liability
Because it’s a decent increase in pay, and not everyone want to just drive.
Some people want to actually provide patient care beyond oxygenate and transport.
10-20k a year is a pretty massive increase when you're making 50k. Also most of the medics I know became medics because they love the work, myself included. I could have gone to nursing school if I just wanted money. I like that once in a blue moon, the skills I have actually help someone
Pasco?
No
What region of Florida is this?
Sleep deduction pay hasn't been legal in many states for a while. Good to see states catch up.
I'm just learning about this, can't believe that existed.
I've been in 2 lawsuits over it in... and they always settle.
Its one of the reasons EMS providers need to be knowledgeable about the labor laws in their industry.
Still an active practice in Indiana unfortunately
Might want to check if its legal.
Until people raise hell and keep working there it'll keep happening.
I refuse to work there personally, but have a lot of peers that have jumped ship despite the pay cut because the call volume is so low
That’s wild. EMTs start at around $19 at my agency with $2 differentials for night/weekend shifts and have the option for unlimited OT. Medics start around $25/26
That’s crazy to me. My small local department starts EMTs at $23 and medics at $35 and plenty of overtime opportunity
Buying the night is fucking criminal. Dumbest shit I’ve ever heard. I’d rather just work at an agency that does 12s at that point.
what is it ?
what is it ?
I know this is going to be controversial but I’ve been an EMT-B for almost 14 years. 5 years ago I started working at Amazon as what is called an Onsite Medical Rep. I currently make $28. Get Amazon stock. Insanely good health insurance. They are paying for me to go back to school to get my bachelors. They paid for me to become a Red Cross CPR instructor (which if I wanted to I could teach cpr outside of work and make money that way). I work 4 ten hour shifts. I basically hand out band aids for boo boos. I don’t work under my emt certs but as a “first aid provider”. I have to deal with workers comp stuff but that is easy to do. They are always look for OMR’s.
I do something similar as an EMR for an industrial plant. Currently at $21/hr. My benefits suck tho, relatively small chemical company. 7 on 7 off, 16.5s at the moment cause we’re so short staffed lol. It’s definitely better than riding a bus.
Much more conducive to my mental health.
Hm, I'm going to have to look at that.
How easy is it to get about two weeks off, and About how many times can you pull that a year?
Working 48/96 right now with no prospect for retirement, but I really do like being able to take 10 days off several times a year using PTO
They now have what is called standard PTO and flex PTO. Flex PTO does not require approvals so you can use it anytime. Standard PTO just means you have to give 24 hours notice. You accrue both throughout the year but can really use it anytime. Plus you get UPT or unpaid time every week. If you wanna leave 2 hours early just use UPT. Some sites do actually get busy and have lots of injuries. My site is super proactive and we have reduced our injury rate by over half in the last 2 year. My amazon is in Kansas by the way.
What on earth is “buying the night”?
Not getting paid for the hours between 0000-0600 unless you catch a call.
Wow. Why would anyone agree to that? Even if I don’t turn a wheel at night, I still get shit sleep. I’d rather just sleep in my own bed at that point. They are paying us for our time and for being available to respond to calls.
Those districts normally offer an incentive for going toward a hospital further away for the billable miles. For example going local might net 6 extra for those hours while going to the city might be 25+ an hour. Again really weird pay scale that’s why I’ve never worked at a place to do that
so what do you get when there is a call ?
Depends on if it’s within the time range. For example let’s say shift is 7a to 7a. We’ll say “night time” is 11pm-6am pay being 15 an hour
Then you get paid 7a-11pm for 15 hour. Call comes out at 3 then you transport to a far hospital for 22/hr so it’s 11-6 at 22/hr then finishing the last hour for 15/hr. Obviously if you go local it lowers the billable mileage and thus causing maybe 15hr
I’ve never worked there nor will I but it does seem to be for people who love downtime as they run 800ish calls a year
what in the world?
You have to run a call between a portion of hours often midnight to 6am to get paid for those hours in question
So do you at least get paid for the entirety if you run one call or do they piece meal it?
You get the entire portion of the shift even if you get a refusal
Ours was piece meal in Arkansas. We made $11/hr. We didn't get paid between 2300 and 0700 and if we got a call, we only got paid for the hours we worked. You got the time from being dispatched to 30 mins after returning to station. Only if you exceeded 3 hours in the 8 hour slot did they pay you for the full 8 hours. This was in 2020, not sure what they pay today as they got bought by a bigger company and I haven't worked there since.
I got fired from a place that paid me $20.50 an hour with no experience in NC.
I currently make $15 an hour... at Best Buy.
I'm happy for y'all, but good god, we all deserve more
The way this has to be one of like three NC agencies
I know this is a very teenager/early 20s thing to say (I'm 22) but getting fired from that place has to be one of my top ten biggest regrets in life
Thats fucked man
Good lord, y’all need unions.
98k a year base pay here, and cost of living ain’t any worse than most other places.
We have them too is the funny part. They’re just extremely weak as they can’t strike or do any meaningful pushback. A district once refused to negotiate a raise with a union and didn’t sign a contract for 3 years and yet nothing happened. No back pay no reason as to why it couldn’t happen from a logistics/financial standpoint.
Oh damn, that’s awful.
NJ EMT-b here. Currently making 29$ and 32$ an hour before night or weekend differentials at my two gigs and we still don’t have glucometry, cpap, or nebs. Wild to see that y’all are more advanced elsewhere and not sufficiently compensated for the skill
I can do all of that and make $15.45 LMAOOOOO
why would that remove the incentive, sorry i missed that
No worries for clarification
As it is atleast in my region EMT’s and medics had a huge wealth disparity. EMTs traditionally making 42-48k while a starting paramedic salary was 50k with top out between 60-70 depending on the district.
As an EMT working a 48/96 schedule (somewhat common in my region) it makes it to where emt pay is 50k gross.
Giving the gross income for a paramedic in the same area 60-70k with a higher paying districts 80k. It provides less of a financial incentive when you’re making 5/7 to 5/8 of the money for significantly less schooling and being able to tech a lot less calls leading to much less reports.
The attitude also being that you don’t hold as much of the “burden” of calls when it comes to liability or errors because Emt’s have a very superficial education so “they don’t know any better” is often a defense that is successful.
So overall you’re getting a lot more responsibility aswell as all the blame if something goes sideways. But where as compensation was 20-30k more it’s now only 10-20 more.
The area in question without giving too much identification is festus to doniphan Missouri
It should be noted St. Louis county and north appears to have their pay already improved but if there’s anyone in the thread that works in that area that could provide additional insight as I have a very superficial understanding of that area
Edit for readability
I’m glad this is happening for you, especially the incomplete pay for 24 hours. How these agencies finding the money for this change, seems like a big deal.
They will magically find the money or reorganize and find the money. They will figure out the funding.
News just broke these past few days, so details are still trickling but it seems eventually you can expect districts that are heavily effect by this go under, bigger neighboring districts have the option at that point to take over and staff ambulances in county contracts and then bill the rides as well as take “ownership” of the current existing equipment and bases, or private ambulances can move into the region.
Reynolds county is another albeit more bleak scenario in which the entire county loses EMS. In Reynolds county particularly the Admin had left the district and without a replacement ended up being staffed by 2 medics which relieved each other essentially overnight.
Washington county is another county that is probably going to go under as their grant money is nearing the end, and their yearly bonuses have been dropped, without significant lay offs of office personnel / admin, it can be expected to trend downwards
End game for all of this is probably hospital based EMS. My experience is only in the south eastern of MO but for those in the area it seems it will inevitably lead to Mercy and BJC staffing ambulances if there isn’t a change or if the district themselves are unprofitable.
I work in your region of Missouri.
I have some doubts about the dubious claims of districts going under, and entire EMS services collapsing. Minimum wage is increasing by like, 9%. Which is a nice yearly jump. Reasonably ran counties and services should have minimal issues adjusting. Reynold's county confuses me, since they had a Facebook job listing in 2021 with a starting EMT pay of $15/hr, for full 24 hour shifts. But that account is also not at all active, and I am not familiar with their situation out there. It sounds like you are more familiar.
Wash Co spent nearly $800,000 last year on apparatus. I am sure they can push off expanding their already extensive fleet to pay their people more. Their financial disclosures, as are all publicly funded ambulance services, are available easily accessible online. Many of them are far from broke.
I am also unaware, personally, of any ambulance service south of St. Louis that already pays less than $15/hr for their EMTs. Maybe 3-4 years ago, sure. I struggle to see why people would be willing to get paid $14/hr as an EMT in rural Missouri considering how aggressively competitive our market has been the last few years.
I highly doubt these services would suddenly go under this upcoming calendar year because of an increase in payroll costs. The likely events would be cutting budgets, taking on debt, while begging their service area for a tax increase.
Im on the other side of the state and I'm getting a raise this year and I'm way over minimum wage. This won’t affect our district. Our director has been watching and planning.
I mean, price of goods rises? So does the amount of sales tax collected. Should be a wash for any of the counties that collect sales tax.
Clearwater, east Wayne, iron county are examples of districts paying less. One of them still “buying the night”
Reynolds county is a weird situation where the admin walked out and the county lost 911 as a result in the span of a week. I know Washington county picked up the slack however there was roughly a few weeks in which all 911’s were handled by neighboring districts.
The main income for those apparatus were grant funded as they routinely put tax increases on the ballot and routinely get denied the tax increases.
They also had a thing going that they would transport to any hospital as far as Barnes for patient choice but I’m sure that’s reversed now. Also citizens of the county also had a thing to where they didn’t pay for rides as long as they lived in county.
Mix this with their current administrator who has not been seen even by employees for the last few months (unrelated but has left his past 2 districts which followed by declaring bankruptcy just afterwards. Along with having more than double amount of office personnel in comparison to a larger county (st Francois county)
The medic pay for the county has historically been low with Emt’s at Cape County Private Ambulance being higher. Along with mind you anecdotal but asking an employee if he’d get his Critical care cert to figure out next years budget (which would give him a 50 cent increase)
Mind you I don’t see these districts going bankrupt within the next year immediately. I do see poorly ran districts being heavily affected by this and furthering a deficit that will catch up.
Overall there are a handful of districts in which considerable raises are going to happen as a direct result of this. I myself am getting a 9k raise essentially overnight due to this.
$15/hr... I wouldn't get out of bed for that money.
I hope you have cheap living standards in that state. eg., buying a house for $100k.
15$ an hour for any job, little alone EMS is dark as hell
damn. our basics start at $23+ and our medics at $31
I’m a nurse and just got recommended this thread but $15/hr is WILD. I used to work in the ER and I can’t believe your pay is that low.
My brother/sister in Christ.... $15/hr is not a liveable wage. 🤦♂️
I think some of your facts are wrong.
EMS and fire are never excluded due to OT. They are often excluded because Missouri minimum wage laws exclude government agencies, which is all fire and the vast majority of EMS in Missouri.
The new law doesn't change anything with how people are paid. Just the minimum hourly amount.
The vast majority of the public employees being police, EMS, and fire often have built in overtime to their schedule. They are normally excluded from minimum wage laws mostly due to the built in overtime and how overtime is handled differently
I make $27/hr as a basic been working almost 2 years and get unlimited overtime in NC. This is ridiculously low.
I’m so sad that this is good news. America needs to figure it the fuck out