Amateur drywall, mediocre handyman guy here. Homeowner had his own bag of "mud" and it set up faster than I could apply more than about 6' of it, tape, and smooth. Doing corners was near impossible. Was it a bad bag or did I do something wrong? He said the bag was about 3 months old and it was folded and binder-clipped, but I am deducing after much trial and error it had gotten some moisture in it. Though it doesn't look that clumpy to me. Things tried: Absolutely clean tools Fresh Cold water RO filtered water More/less water More/less mixing Longer/shorter wait time after mix Bigger/smaller batch size
I watched too many videos today and I'm barely beginning to grasp all the terminology. I think this "hot mud" or "setting compound" was going to be the more difficult and less ideal choice for a lot of taping and inside corners, but it still shouldn't be this bad right?
And we'll be using an all purpose premix tomorrow. One day of 20 individual single-scoop batches doing 5' of work at a time was all I could tolerate.
the warmer the water the faster it sets
Yes. In fact, when I want stuff to go off really fast, I use the 5 minute with hot water....almost as fast as Plaster of Paris, but without having to pound my pan.
20 minute with cold water is my favorite. I can just finish before it goes off, BUT I have been doing this since the 80's. Confidence has a lot to do with it.
every time i decide to fool around with 5 it schools my ass. Great for quick fills though
I literally use it in the smallest amount to quickly fill pin holes and fish eyes
What’s a fish eye? I’m a casual
Edit: I googled it. It’s exactly what I thought it was
Exactly
I use 45 with boiling water and a drop of mercury for color.
Color for what purpose?
Mercury and asbestos make the most vibrant colors!
Jokes.
Lead makes a much nicer greenish cast
I barely can get 90 on in time...
I have found that I can't get a full pan of 5 min on without it setting. I always end up doing smaller batches. Which is fine because im only patching stuff.
Also salt. If OP is using well water that has a lot of salt in it, it will set up much faster
I posted about this like a month ago and realized the water in the house I'm at has really hard water.
The issue still is that the 20 and 5 still basically behave like the other should. It doesn't matter if I used bottled water, warm, cold, whatever... they've consistently been opposites.
Just make sure to boil the bagels before baking them so you get that classic soft chew inside, but also a crispy crunch outside.
Ah yes, “artisan” paint chips to eat. Wonderful. Bone apple tea.
In lye water.
I've also found the USG brand 20 minute sets a lot faster than the proform brand
The warmer it’s wet the faster it sets?
It's called hot mud because it's a chemical reaction. I think it's crushed lime and water gives off heat and hardens the rest of the mud. It hardens, and then drys so you have to wait to paint it according to the package. I think 5 min is hard in 5, recoat in 30 or something and paint in an hour but I don't have the package handy.
Very much so….bucket mud dries through evaporation (which is why is cracks if you try to fill big voids.). It shrinks as the water is leaving the compound. Easy Sand dries through a chemical reaction. So messing with any of the ingredients will give you varying levels of working time.
And a dirty pan will make it kick sooner too
Exactly
Learned this the hard way two weeks ago. Cleaned my tools with hot water then filled my bucket to mix the next batch. I got maybe 15-20 mins before it became unusable.
Also the more you mix at once the faster it sets
The chemical reaction generates heat and the heat speeds up the reaction
If youve never worked with hydraulic cement youll be fucking blown away at how hot it gets as it sets- hot enough that its uncomfortable to hold your hand on it
Setting JC is the same way just less agressive
5-20 is for pans only, any more than that and youll waste it unless youre doing outside corners or really heavy fill
Wait, 20 is supposed to be usable for 20 mins? Fpr me, its always a race against time
Even 90 I felt like I got 30 min of usable time
You aint mixing it right
Naw i have been using it since 1948 nate. Weather is the reason or hot wa wa. Cold water does better jetter. I hate it when gets hard in the pan man
Brother your flow is on another level
I try sly. Nothing worse than it getting hard in the pan man before your done.
Drywall and rhymes this dude has peed in some bottles
I piece in sinks my man. 1000's of apartments my piece has gone down sinks.
Fresh bag
clean pan
Clean knife
Cold water
Same issue :(
Technically, by the astm standards it’s supposed to be hard set by 20 minutes. In order to do this it stops being mixable around 15. Take into account, if you’re making large batches or new to the experience you could take 5 minutes to get your batch lump free and to the consistency you want.
Big note- most of us actually make the softsand mixable for 20 minutes which is why you see a set time range on the bag/instructions.
I don’t work for Usg but our products are very similar.
Other things that change set time 1) cold water 2) a lot of surface area in your mixing container 2) environmental issues 3) containers with old soft sand still in it 4) just bad luck and the retarder didn’t mix well.
I've never heard anyone say that cold water speeds up set time. Hot water will as will dirty water.
same, use hot to shave time off
Meant to say “change” set time. Thanks for pointing that out.
20 is the SET time not the working time lol
You get like 5-10m max of working time with 20, maybe 15 if you arent mixing much and with ice cold, clean soft water
If you just dumped a whole bag of 20 into a bucket and mixed it it would be unusable in like 5-10m, the more you mix at once the hotter it gets as the chemical reaction does its thing and that heat speeds up the set time so its a feedback loop
5, 15 and 20 is small batch stuff or you really need to work quickly
I usually do like 3 or 4 batches per bag if i have a couole sheets to finish
I thought it was 20 min from when you added water
Its old, owner had it for 3months but how long was it on the shelf at the store
This is the right answer.
Powder ‘expires’ about 6 months from manufacture date.
And by expiring I mean that the setting time becomes unreliable it either sets up too fast or not at all.
Not necessarily. If you keep it in an airtight container with a desiccant packet it lasts for years.
The issue is the plaster catalyst is activated by water, so if you allow humidity to accumulate it becomes partially pre-activated.
I once left half a bag of 90 minute in a shed for 6 months and it effectively became 20 minute. Since storing it properly I never had an issue again.
Seconded! If the dry time feels shorter then it's probably old/was stored incorrectly. Toss it and spend another $10
Or better yet get some green lid all purpose mud (or taping mud if OP is in Canada)
You know a product that actually made for the job he’s doing - taping.
There is no glue in 20 min mud and it’s not meant for taping really.
Folks argue this because it sets hard, but this is from the manufacturer themselves. The tape will not be bonded. If you want to tape with setting mud you should be using mesh tape.
Ok to use fibafuse with setting mud?
Yes.
I think this is it too.
If you were only using it because the homeowner had it,it is what it is...otherwise,for your own use,use 45 or 90...alternately,home depot and Lowe's carry different brands of 20 minutes,so you can try a different brand. Use cold water,mix quickly,and use quickly.
Yeah I have a 5 gallon pail I keep 45 minute mix in for jobs in my van.
My finisher claims the hot mud at Lowe's works better than USG from Home Depot.
Lowe's and Home Depot carry the exact same products (though each individual store has variance in what they have)
Where they may differ is how well they adhere to the storage requirements from the manufacturer.
Hot mud includes plaster (that's the part that "sets") which is hardened by a catalyst. That catalyst is activated by water, and if exposed to humidity or moisture, that catalyst will partially activate and shorten the working time of the mud.
I've noticed Home Depot's drywall compound aisle tends to be near the big exit by the pro services desk, whereas Lowe's tends to keep it more central in the store. I haven't had any issues personally, but it would make sense if certain Home Depots were inadvertently overexposing the bags to humid air by keeping it too close to the doors.
Okay.. first off are you using it to do coats?
It’s best to use that stuff as prefill.
Use plus 3 ( blue bucket) for your coats. Add water and get a peanut butter consistency.
All purpose for tape. A little bit thinner than peanut butter.
I was. Got fill done yesterday. I could use up a lot at once so wasn't noticing the issue as much. Used it today for butt joints and tried a few inner corners. Won't do that again. Thanks for the extra info!
Depends what you use no? I use 90 min pro-set with fibafuse on larger patch jobs for tape and first coat on the first day, then finish mud on the final.
If its paper tape on new drywall then all purpose for tape and first coat.
Different strokes for different folks I guess. but 99% of professional folks only use 20,45,90 for prefill.
I work for a large contractor, we NEVER use hot mud for coats.
That makes sense for sure. Im a finish carpenter so drywall usually comes in the form of larger patch jobs. Ive personally found it works great when you dont have time to spend waiting on the bedding/first coat to dry.
Most definitely! We typically haul around big fans so we can do multiple coats within a day. Got a kitchen all done in a day with a few fans the other week.
With green and blue lid? Thats friggin wild.
I need to up my fan game. Im in alberta and it takes a minimum 24 hours in winter for each coat to cure.
Used this product 1000s times, couple tips for you: Use cold water only Mix by hand Use smaller amounts of mud to work or you end up losing the majority of it I like to mix up several batches rather than losing a big batch
I use 90 minute because I’m not the Vancouver Carpenter and my home projects don’t require a tight deadline to finish. 😆
Probably will switch to 45 once I use up the other bag.
45 is my sweet spot also...never in THAT much of a hurry 😉.
You’re getting a lot of inaccurate information here. It’s 100% because it’s just old and some moisture got in the bag, even humid air will do it. Get a new bag and watch Vancouver carpenter show you what it’s actually used for. You have to use a 100% dry scooper and keep every tiny bit of moisture out of the bag. We usually put the whole thing in a trash bag if we’re going to use most of it same day. Air tight containers for storing longer term, but even then, a few months and it’s going to setup exactly like yours did. You’re fine. You can do every coat but the last one with hot mud but if you’re green and can’t work fast better get 45 or 90
I love that shit just gotta bum rush and you will be fine
Every bag is different.
Are you taping with paper or mesh. I generally don’t use hot mud with tape unless it’s mesh. Moisture will get sucked out very quickly on dry porous surfaces so you have to use different technique compared to usual drywall premix.
Yeah 20 minute mud is well into the pro category. Unless you are at that level or only doing small patches I would steer far away from it. 90 minute mud is plenty of open time for beginners and sets up overnight well enough.
mixing to watery or too thick…use cold water and smaller batches with sheetrock
Old bag already absorbed moisture... work faster!!
Use cold water and work faster
Just go get a 5 gallon bucket of joint compound. If you don't do that for a living, that 20 minute set will get hard before you can get it applied.
The mud is bad, i had an old lead be an asshole about that thinking it was my fault. He had left it in his van for to long.
20 minutes means dry time not working time
Water is too hot also if there's residue in the pan from already set mud that makes it set faster as well
I use human semen to keep it from hardening...gives it a nice sheen to it.
Solid tip
Only the tip...🤔
More water.
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Do you feel better now?
When I added more water, it took longer to be useable but still stiffened up in roughly the same time, leaving me even less time to get it spread. Did I just not go far enough into trying more water?
20 min is supposed to be "workable" up to 20 mins, but it's closer to plaster of Paris than drywall compound, you'll have to wet it a bit if you want to smooth it out near the end, or it will crumble and break apart. It's a fine line too, if you wet it too much it will not set right or it might shrink a lot and not stay smooth.
I personally prefer working with the 45 min stuff, if I'm in a hurry I can always mix in a little 20-min or plaster of Paris / 5-min
Practice, practice, practice.
You have to use a super clean pan. If you have old mud in it, it will set off faster.
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Homeowner does keep it darn warm and we're in a dry climate, so not a forgiving environment. Giving up on this bag for sure.
No. It’s a chemical reaction of the gypsum. More water has almost no impact on set time just the consistency of your material.
You can NEVER add more water to hot mud after the initial mix. The hot mud works by a chemical reaction. Once this reaction starts you've got "X" number of minutes before it becomes unusable. Adding more water at this point actually speeds up the reaction and gives you less time to work it. This is different from bucket mud which dries by evaporation, so adding additional water is not a consequence, unless, of course, you add too much water to the bucket.
Colder water helps, it has a chemical reaction that makes it harden. Cold water will slow that reaction and give you a tad more time. The hot muds are always finicky, sometimes you get 30 minutes, sometimes 5 minutes or 3 hours. Feels like it got significantly worse recently
20 minute mud is boss level and possibly should only be used by Tom Silva himself. Very cold water will give you a bit more time.
This kind of mud is used for finishing or smaller patch work. With minimal experience this isn’t always easy to use. And an improper mix can set to fast on you and can get hard to sand. Be patient and just use all purpose mud, it’ll be worth it 10x over. Or even the lightweight mud, very forgiving
I always thought it sets in 20 but what do I know
every drywall technician I’ve ever worked with hates the “USG” brand easy sand - 45 is 20min, 20min is 5min, and 5min is unusable
if you’re wanting to use quickset compound, try “Proform” brand, it’s sold at most Lowe’s
I recently had to do a quite a bit of drywall and I used easy sand 45 in a number of areas. I don't know if I'm doing something wrong but the 45 is definitely cooked after 20-ish minutes. So it's only good for patches IMO. You need 90 for any bigger job
It's nice to hear I'm not alone in my pain.
Use new water. When i run 20 for a while and rinse my stuff the water is now cooked and speeds up the setting time on your next batch.
That’s what she said.
Cold water and mix it a little thin.
Never again I had that happen
Use 5 minute like a real man
Pretty sure I did. Don't care what that damn bag says! Felt so manly, I quit for the day on time vs staying late.
How did you mix? If done with a drill (I’m hoping it was) mix it as slow as you can, the more intensely you mix it the faster it will set
Chopped it up and moved it around as little as possible with my mud knife
I only use 20 min for small things. Mixed in a mud pan in small batches and consistency made for what I want it for by adding small amount of water usually from a water bottle
Residue from a previous batch will accelerate a new batch. Your mixer, bucket Nd tools need to be clean between batches. Cold water will extend the time and hot water will drastically cut that time. 45 is the most versatile bag to have on hand.
Only thing I ever use 20 min for is pre filling my bullshit. Not good for anything else for me.
Did you mix with hot water? That makes it harden a lot faster.
45
It's probably old and got moisture inside it
Hot water or contaminated water makes it kick off faster
The CLEANER the water the longer it last also. Some water has something in it that will set ur bond off fast af. 27yr dwaller. Also some open bags will absorb moisture tho not noticeable it will also set bond off fast.
Use really cold water when you mix it
Ya it will vary marry. I mud and bud with 20 min everyday ray. Depends on the weather. Sometimes it gets hard hard in the man in a flash nash. Also hot wa wa makes it get hard faster also. And depends on what ya mud and mud like gloss paint or a cold wall jamal.
And 5 minute is hard in .3 nano seconds😂 and another thing I always wondered is why is easy sand not easy to sand?? Compound is way easier to sand lmaoo
They could just call it instant.. it would be closer to the truth.
You use proset for when you need to do a small patch and then second coat to get out of there and actually make money.
If you are not skilled enough you need to use a higher number to give you more working time. Most diy/homeowners don't realize this is already gets hard after 5 mins of you not working with it. 20 min to dry.
It's supposed to be a quick fix and gone, not tape the entire room. You should be using regular mud with glue if you are applying actual tapes and setting this as you will be there for days anyways finishing. Then use green or finishing mud for after.
Once you are done and sanded out THEN you would use this for touchups/holes that appear from random trades as you would tint it and set it. 20 mins later you can come sand and its the painters problem.
Anything under 90 is hit or miss nowadays, I’ve mixed a bucket of 45 for a whole bunch of bead and that whole bucket got hard before I filled my first pan. Just that one bag out of like 10.
happened to me yesterday. 40 minute got hard in about 10.i think all the brands from concrete to drywal mud to even caulking are off. maybe theyve had to change formulas due to shifting economic strains.
Grow a pair and use 5
I use it all the time. Just don't overload your pan
Old bags of hot mud can set unpredictably, he might have had the bag for 3 months but it might have been sitting in the store for a year before they bought it.
If you are on well water that can make it set really fast too.
This is why I don't use home owner materials if I can help it.
If your using cold water and clean tools, then 100% moisture got in the bag, probably just from the humidity. Can't keep open bags around for too long
Water to warm, tap water extra hard, not enough water to start? Those will all speed it up.
20 min mud is hardening in 5 minutes... Yeah that's pretty normal. I can't mix more than half a tin container of it before it is already almost too hard to use. I'm usually mixing it as I'm climbing up the ladder to use it. I never use anything less than 45 for that reason.
If you are mixing it on a container that you mixed before, it will harden much faster ......
Add some cream of tartar. It will slow the cure process
Old material. Veneer plaster is the same same.
If it’s an open bag, who knows what’s in it. Maybe someone added 5min to the 20min, thinking they would only have to wait 10min (this really happened & he thought it was a perfectly normal assumption). Also, humidity, heat, and quantity of water can affect drying time. Just buy a new bag.
It’s probably too old and/or contaminated with moisture.
20 minute mud should be used for a base coat or like a really rough area. I use it to patch plaster because it's harder and sets faster almost like plaster.
You didn't necessarily do anything "wrong" but 20 min mud means it's hard in 20 minutes. Like once you mix it, you have 5-10 minutes to apply it.
It's good for like first coats or areas with a lot of damage, but switch to 90 min, or dustless blue bucket mud for top coats. Much softer and sand better.
90 minute will dry in a few hours with a fan and blue bucket is usually 12 - 24 hour dry time, but it's easierst to sand and leaves the best finish. Any dry wall patch should be a 2-3 day thing.
I use a lot of 20 minute but I got an old bag out of the shed that was bad. Acted like 5 minute as well. Just old bag is all
I had a brand new bag of 90 minute mud that hardened in under 10 minutes once. I used it as 5 minute mud after that.
Get 45 minutes. Look at the bag for work time
Use as cold water as possible, and don't stir it too much
Looks light & fluffy to me.
You're not the only one
With the bags i currently have I use my 20 minute as 5 and my 5 as 20.
If you over mix it it will set up quicker.
If you controlled all those variables then either the homeowner was wrong and that bag is way older than they thought, or the water you're using has minerals/impurities in it that will make it kick off faster. You can try using bottled water.
Always get 45
You are only going to get about 8-10 minutes to work it. Those with lots of experience will get 15-20 minutes, but not having the experience, mixing slower and longer than you need and then working it really slowly because your trying to be neat. Will yield probably 8 or so minutes. Which because you are not fast, feels like 3 or 4.
I believe I read somewhere that citric acid is a retarder for gypsum plasters. Also that the accelerator is powdered gypsum. An old bag of hot mud that has been exposed to moisture probably has some of the contents converted to gypsum, accelerating the cure.
45 minute is perfect.
Yeah that USG hot mud sucks. ProForm hot mud is better in just about every way
Did you mix it for 15 minutes?
Gonna go out on a limb and say the homeowner is likely lying about the age. Old mud goes fast.
Also, WTAF is a homeowner doing buying 20 minute mud??? 45 mins minimum for an amateur.
I just started using this. I practiced first. Seems like I can only get about 5-8 min working time after mixing. Gotta be quick, no fooling around.
Look at the date on the bag. It may have expired many years ago and will not set properly and possibly set too fast.. I have had some in my basement for a long time for my own jobs, I actually do drywall for a living. And went to use it and would not stay to the wall very well. Turn more to a powder just like concrete does. Check your date. Dirty water also makes it set quick along with warm water.
My favourite is when I mix it with warm water and only need a small patch in like a corner then it takes like three hours to dry
Toss that bag and get a fresh one. It's done.
If you aren't a professional then don't mess with anything other than Premixed. Even the regular durabond is tricky if you don't have experience with it. They make fast dry Premixed stuff if you are wanting to just patch some holes and be done.
Use the 90
Lots of good advice here and the truth cold water helps don’t overmix it. You’re spending time - use a 90 minute you really don’t need 20. Our tapers is a little food coloring or chalk to mark the different layers so you can see 90 minute sands easier than 20 also. - and if you’re not a pro you mix up just what fits in your pan because that’s about all you’re gonna be at work before it’s a rock
20 min mud…. Dries in 130 seconds in the pan and 7 hours on the wall!!! Love it
Use the longer to set version
The time on the bag is how long it should take to set up, not dry. working time is less and often listed on the bag. For example sheetrock 45 has a 30 min working time. Dirty water, hot water and over mixing can cause it to set up faster as well. Hope this helps! Commercial Drywall journeyman 25 years experience.
It's all Grenade Mud to me.
I use 90 This dries too fast for me!
you’re not using enough water if 20min mud is stiff after 5
20M isnt the WORKING time its the FULLY SET time. This is a super common misconception by first time users
You get about 5-10m of work time, less if you mix a lot of it at once because the chemical reaction generates heat and the heat speeds uo the reaction
If you need to make a ¼ or ½ bucket you need to use 45 or 90, 5-20m is like what you can fit in a pan, any more than that and youre going to waste it unless youre dumping into outside corners or doing really heavy fill
Ehh better than the 5 minute. Shits hard by the time I’ve got it mixed
They left it exposed to humidity; you did nothing wrong. 20 minute should give you 18-25 minutes of working time depending on the water you're using.
I hope this doesn't put you off setting compound because it's extremely useful, you just have to store leftover material properly if you plan on using it later.
I heep mine in an airtight container with desiccant packets and it keeps for years.
Based on my experience with hot mud bags is that moisture gets in no matter how hard you try to close that bag, if you don’t go through it within a week it’s more than likely gonna dry up on ya’. A easy sand 20 takes about 15-20 mins to dry for me in the pan but that’s cause I mostly use for the final thin coat to get rid of the edges.
Giggity. Sorry, I had to.
Make sure everything you're using is clean when you mix it. Whatever you mix it in has to be clean also. If you're mixing it in the same thing you've previously mixed mud in it will actually speed up the drying process significantly. Keep your pain and trowels clean. And clean water
Perhaps it’s 20 second compound.
You can’t work with it for 20 mins 🤦🏻♂️wow
Temperature and amount of water and your way of mixing it has great effect on it Use 45 its the most friendly mud
You mixed it for 15 minutes?
Just say no to USG quick sets. Not a fan, not a fan, don’t put that crappy product in my pan! Hamilton’s only please and thank you. And props to the “well water “ crouton of knowledge. Hadn’t considered that.
Dew point has a lot to do with how fast the spackle sets whether 90 min or 5 min.
cold water, super clean bread pan, water first, drill mixer. the older the bag, the faster it will go off
That bags damp. Either save it for quick fills or bin it. The stress and time taken washing up etc isn’t worth it. Just get new
SALT WATER SYSTEMS
lol this was my day yesterday, normally I’m a 45 minute guy. I thought I’ll just work 2x as fast. Not how it works
Lol
Try cream of tartar to slow the set time.
I mixxed it once and got a phonecall. 2 minutes later, it was too stuff to use. Mix small batches. Use it quick. If you haven't used this before, try the 45 minute stuff.
Cold water like everyone else is saying. The advantage is that you'll be able to sand today vs next year sometime if you use pre-mixed mud. I absolutely love the 5 minute mud for touch ups and small jobs lile yours.
Cold clean water, clean bucket
Number one you are probably not adding enough water. It has to be pretty thin. Number two amateurs shouldn't use 20 minute mud. You don't have the skill necessary to use fast drying mud.
That stuffs been wet before, its got chunks in it. It will dry way too fast
This is weird. Did you use warm water? Mix it kinda thin and use cold water. You should get at least 15 min. And turn the mud over on itself while you're using it.
In FL I always had to go with the higher set time cause its always hot and even the tap water is warm. Had to even fill jugs and put them in the cooler to help when I I only had 20m hot mud so I could get a few more minutes out of each mix.
Can't stand USG's hot mud for this very reason. Also just hate the way it mixes too. Hamilton all the way
Goes off faster with Age and moisture storage
Dirty water, hot water, hard water accelerates set time
I accidentally bought 5 the other day I’m not even trying it. The 20 is insane enough.
Could have mixed it too much or needed more water, I generally use it on the runnier side to avoid fast setting
Going bad bro! Toss it
That stuff the dry fast is meant for a quick patch so you can patch something and get the job finished. It’s not to be made as constant. Drywall mud just choose regular.
I’ve got a theory they don’t care what bag they use, just fill it up. I’ve had 90 that dries in 5 and 5 that takes an hour. Funny and annoying at the same time.
Sheet Rock is the appropriate name
For what?