Just finished the chapter of Ivan's Nightmare and wanted to pause for a second - what an absolutely amazing chapter, one of the best of the book so far for me. I also resonate a lot with Ivan's character which made it even more impactful and impressive to me.
I feel like nothing will ever compare to this book, but that's fine, some are meant to sit on top of the list. The character build is so well rounded that it makes me curious about Dosto as a person and his process of writing - does anyone know books/essays about it?
Something very simple about this chapter makes it so great, just the notion of whether the Devil is real or not. Obviously it’s logical to think it’s just a figment of Ivan’s insanity, but I felt that by imagining the “devil” as actually some low level demon grunt who wants to be a fat Russian lady with childlike faith is pretty funny. Unrelated but definitely liked the anecdotes from Ivan’s past, idk why but the quadrillion mile story stuck with me.
This book didn’t really hit me, idk if it was the translation even though a lot of people said ignat avsey was good, I was thinking of trying katz
Why didnt it? How far did you get?
Search the title of book on JSTOR. You will find a lot of remarkable work.
It’s funny to me that you can spend your whole life just reading about this book lol
About any really. It's what makes life so rich. You can reread all your favourites which will give you greater insights.
thank you
I too just finished Ivan’s Nightmare on my first read. What strikes me most about this book was just how he nails human nature and relationships.
I am the oldest brother and the only child of a divorce. My father remarried and had two other kids. I joined the military, left as an army captain, and got involved in some things I’m not proud of. It took basically getting slapped down to earth to realize I needed to change some things.
The second oldest brother held me in quite a bit of disdain, and the youngest attempted to be a mediator. So my own family, we have myself in the role of Mitya, the middle is Ivan and the youngest Alyosha. I kept being struck by how much Mitya resembles me at my absolute worst. This book is going to stay with me for a long long time.
Same with me and dmitri and my own siblings lmao. I started off hating him, then he started growing on me. Then I ended up loving him and started realizing dmitri is JUST LIKE ME. That’s probably why I hated him and was wondering why he started growing on me lol. All the aspects of myself that I don’t like was just staring at me right in the face lmao
It's amazing how subtly some subjects are addressed, even the small interactions mean something.
I bet it's an interesting feeling comparing your relationship to the book, but let's wait until you finish to hear your final thoughts!
agreed. im enjoying every second. currently reading about dmitri in mokroye.
i will definitely read it again. theres so much stuff i probably didnt catch and on a second read it'd make so much sense.
i wish i could read it in russian. i feel like theres so much good humour that doesnt get picked up in the translation. when dmitri is trying to get madame Kholakov (butchered the name sorry) to give him money and shes just ranting about the mines that was soooo funny
Yo facts that scene was genuinely hilarious
Get into gold mining!! 😂
I agree, it's impossible to get all the messages and references after one read.
I think the main theme that most readers may have missed in this chapter is that it is a jab at Kant (he also used Descartes' evil demon and parodies it for his argument). Kant was widely read in literary and philosophical circles in 19th-century Russia and was taught at universities.
Dostoevsky's critique of Kant, to put it concisely, concerns rejecting reason as the source for moral authority. He also shows how reason does not get rid of guilt, and that reason can be used to undermine morality (by endlessly being able to justify all kinds of behavior) and thwart the path toward moral transformation.
ugh this is so fucking true wow. i came to this through the odor debacle. and through zosima's duel. the subjective reality/interpretation/meaning is so valuable. taleb talks about this a lot too. empirical reasoning
Yea I think Ivan had my most favorite chapters. I really liked Rebellion (in my translation it was called Mutiny). It was such a raw and powerful chapter. Lots of jaw dropping scenes during that section, and afterwards I started having the same questions as Ivan about the innocent and suffering. I finished the novel a few weeks ago for the first time and have been thinking about it almost daily.
I’ll say i believe it’s his best book overall but I personally preferred C&P a bit more.
Ivan’s nightmare is one of my favorite chapters in literature.
The beauty of this book is also in its subtlety.
Some of the chapters about children as well as the Orthodox Church don’t particularly add to the story arch but are nonetheless poignant analysis of human nature.
It is truly a masterpiece. Makes me want to go and read it again. Enjoy!
Thank you! I just finished it - still processing, but what a book!
My god . I want to get into this novel so bad. I am stuck in the old baffoon chapter since ages . I don't understand why I am not able to read this .
Just read it and move on? it's ok if you don't think you understand everything
The novel has a lot of ups and downs which I think have deterred some people to read it or even finish it, but you need to power through the bits that you're not enjoying to get to the ones you'll never forget haha
I recently finished a project of reading all of Dostoevsky's, novels, novellas, and most-heralded short stories, and what a magnificent experience it was!. Before reading them I read the one-volume abridgement of Joseph Frank's five-voluume biography .It is one of the best biographies I have ever read and prepared me to better understand the works as I read them. Frank is both a superb biographer and an insightful literary analyst. I particularly enjoyed his chapter on (THE) HOUSE OF THE DEAD--sometimes the first "THE" is omitted, sometimes not. Frank's pages are superb on Dostoevsky's rather minimal involvement in the somewhat radical Petrashevsky Circle, for which Dostoevsky and fellow Petrashevsky were sentenced to death by firing squad, but pardoned by the czar at the last minute, their sentences reduced to hard labor at a Siberian penal work camp. This experience haunted Fyodor Mikhailovitch for the rest of his life but also gave him greater understanding of people from social strata he otherwise would not have known. I also enjoyed Frank's exposition on nihilism when discussing the novel, variously named THE POSSESSED, DEVILS, or DEMONS.
Jo-Dumm, I share your great admiration for THE BROTHERS KARAMAZOV, which I was reading for the fourth time. It ha been deep inside my consciousness and subconsciousness for 50 years now, inspiring my conscience and giving me remembered pleasure.
Sorry to have rattled on for so long here, but I've got one more rattle. After being perplexed by all those multi-syllable Russian last names and patronymics, I finally came up with the idea of 1)going to Google Translate; 2) type the name in its English spelling on the left side of the screen; 3) click for translation; 4) the spelling appears on the right-hand side of the screen in both English and Russian; 5) click the "speak" icon and hear a bot speak the name in Russian; 6) practice several times if this plunks your twanger.
Okay, over and OUT!
Ivan’s nightmare is the chapter that I have thought about and re read more than any other.
I can’t express in words now it made me feel. I almost have tears in my eyes just trying.
One of the things I loved most about the chapter is how Ivan says '“You’re the embodiment of myself, but only a part of myself… only the stupidest and nastiest of my thoughts and feelings. ” which I feel like it's such a powerful realisation to have in that context.
Yep. And it’s the same for all of us. That’s a central theme of the book.
Also the devil has a hilarious and pragmatic sense of humor Hehe.
I thought about this book for days after I finished. I’d be at parties, drinking, and then a random fleeting scene from this book would hit me and I’d be like… damn lol. It’s just very real and intense. I’ll have to reread some day
It’s funny I resonated the LEAST with ivan so the nightmare scene (and his arc in general, just wait, no spoilers) hit me in such a different way than you probably, and it STILL was really intense chapter for me lol. His arc made me extremely emotional, I can’t imagine if I actually resonated more with him lol
Man, I just finished it. What a bookkkkkkkkk!
I get that and I can see it happening, it's not a book that ever leaves you really.
Ahahahah let me just say, the struggle is real!