Ben Franklin crashes through the window of the Continental Congress with broken wood and canvas strapped to his back.
"Oh! My glider nearly worked that time! Perhaps my weight is the problem? I know! I shall ask one of the many ladies of the night with whom I am acquainted if any of them are willing to give it a try!"
Official translation: including the original historic dialogue of that scene:
Our boy, Lil Benny Franklin buss on da scene right through the goddam window, using his latest janky-ass flyin' contraption:
"Fuck! Why my shit ain't work this time! What? My ass too fat?" "Fuck dis. Imma get one a dem skinny ass hoes I been messin wit. Then we gone see what it do."
Given that recordings from that era are spotty at best, there's no evidence they didn't. It may have been common enough that no one thought it was remarkable.
It's a fairly well known historical fact that the only times George Washington was comfortable opening his mouth and showing off his fucked up wooden slave teeth was when he was belting out showtunes with the boys
I wish so bad I could visit and see medical devices in real life being used a couple hundred years ago (or more). Hippo teeth, hearing horns, and all the other stuff I need to see in real time on a real person.
He had several pairs including a set made from gold and hippo ivory which were stolen from the Smithsonian back in the 1980s. The top half of those has never been recovered.
He had another set made from lead and an assortment of animal teeth which is at Mt Vernon today.
We have records of him acquiring the teeth of enslaved people but don't know for sure if they were incorporated into his dentures
That's really interesting. I play in a fife and drum corps and in our geeky little world, some people have extensively researched World Turned Upside Down and have found that it was not played at Yorktown. It was definitely a popular drinking song around that time, and we all still play it.
The Star Spangled Banner was also based on a popular drinking song Anacreon in Heaven. At some point in time they slowed it down to anthem speed and I think that's why it's hard to sing. I think they should have left it alone. It's way cooler to have a drinking song as the national anthem.
What? Don’t you know the Declaration of Independence is a libretto? It’s just that the music was lost in the war of 1812 when the English burned Washington.
I shit you not, when Hamilton First came out a woman in a local political committee with me said “I had no idea there were so many prominent African Americans at that time”
There was also the time when someone shouted at him, "hey, congrats on Hamlet!" and he shouted back "I WISH I wrote Hamlet!" and they drove off shouting "Yay, Hamlet!"
I can't even go make fun of them on Twitter, because the account was already suspended for a TOS violation. I guess they didn't take the news that well.
It’s fiction as well in terms of its revisionist history, I’d wager that the commenter would still make their point even if they knew who Lin-Manuel was
The original comment that Lin-Manuel replied to is true. Beat boxing jokes aside, its bananas that people think the musical Hamilton is some sort of musical documentary like VH1 Behind the Music.
I didn’t say he necessarily owned them, just that he bought and sold them. My point still stands it’s revisionist fiction that’s misrepresenting actual history.
i mean sure, but it's not a play about slavery. it accurately represented what he did do (founded the manumission society, wrote articles against it, supported his friend laurens) and sure that makes him a raging hypocrite by 2025 standards but he was anti slavery by then contemporary standards.
i mean, not really? he's painted as a self obsessed self promoting endlessly verbose ass, who's also brave, brilliant and fairly extraordinary. i don't think he's painted as super woke or anything, he did in fact take steps against slavery but he was more interested in reforming US finances so that's what we see more of.
like they could have had jefferson say 'didn't you buy or sell some slaves hamilton hypocrite much' they also skipped washington having hundreds of slaves. it's just, i hate to say, not dramatically interesting because nothing really changes over the course of the play, and there's a danger of treating a huge important subject too lightly if you touch on it but don't dig in.
He’s right though (at least in part). Lin Manuel-Miranda took some creative licenses in terms of events and when they happened, as well as minimizing the fact that Hamilton was a total dickhead
I think it’s more the fact that Lin-Manuel Miranda is the creator of the play and all its musical numbers and the person talking to them is unaware of it than the fact that it’s an adaptation.
I need to see what is being replied to. This could be a very tongue-in-cheek "how are you saying x when you know the play is an adaptation?" Did Miranda say something stupid before this?
Yeah what if there's more context to this post which we don't have access to that would completely flip our understanding of it 180 degrees? Wait... what if that's the case with EVERY social media post we see??
Is it? Sure, saying something like that to Lin, who obviously knows better, is definitely a “do you know who you’re talking to?” situation… but I also interpret posts here as “you’re telling nonsense to the one person who would know it best.” So, yeah.
True. And also, before Hamilton, I doubt 98% of the US knew there were Schuylers relevant to Alexander Hamilton. Or that he wrote papers. Or had an affair. The play educated so many people in the way that School House Rock made it easier to recall the function of a conjunction.
Unfortunately all I remember from that song is “conjunction junction what’s your function….. something something something something something something”
Yeah in real life Hamilton was not the hero that modern liberals see him as based on the musical. He was very pro-elite, anti-democratic and not a man of the people. Listen to the podcast "the dollop" that has a 3 parter on him vs Aaron burr. But this article does a good quick synopsis:
...the hatred of Hamilton (the musical) is almost more annoying than the hype around the musical itself? Like a piece of art doesn't have to fit all your political purity checks
If it makes you feel better, I hate it because the music is garbage and lin Manuel Miranda rights is lame as absolute fuck
Edit - just googled "best linwell Cassandra song" and My Shot came up.... I stand by every mean thing i've ever said about this man. I'd rather listen to UK rap
Oh, this is one comment where i'll take all downvotes possible. Linwell Miranda fucking sucks, i will take this opinion with me to the goddamn grave
I mean fair I don't understand most pop music also but I am not particularly angry at music being too woke or not woke enough, it does feel like so many people look at political fiction and basically want as heavy-handed messaging as Daily Wire bullshit. It's art, you can interpret it yourself.
It's a musical, there is literally so much depth of story you can shove in two hours of singing and still have a coherent story that can be understood. As a piece of live music the ochestration and lyrics do really innovative stuff from earlier musical tropes. Rap can generally have the music overpower the vocals, but I don't listen to much rap.
I frequent the lefty musical milieu, there is definitely cultural wars in criticisms of Hamilton. It was released during Obama's last year in office, and a lot of the marketing and popular acclaim was that it told history through hip hop and potrayed white founding fathers as POC. By around COVID and BLM the discourse on race in the US has changed pretty violently; the right just straight up trash any presence of minorities as DEI and the left were in the mood of fuck all white people (I am not white, just an observer from Asia) that a musical trying to cast founding fathers in any good light is considered inherently bad.
You can skip to the Hamilton part of this podcast but I mean, I can't think of a single song or musical project that can potray subjects as nuanced and detailed to withstand that sort of criticism. Not that if you write a good musical to appease cultural wars you will ever not have every other sect up in arms
it's a musical, there is only so much depth of story you can shove in two hours of singing
Bad point. The songs themselves can advance plot and/or character development. That's kinda what musicals do....
really innovative stuff compared to earlier musical tropes.
Give me two examples. And it can't be simply "Miranda rapped"
that a musical trying to cast founding fathers in any good light is considered inherently bad.
Imo, I think it's because the musical has little to no entertainment value. So people are attaching to the political angle. If that's the case, I cant be mad, Miranda chose an inherently political topic to make a musical about. It would be pretty stupid to make a musical about the founding fathers and then be all "ugh, why are people trying to make it all political?, I dont get it, this is just a musical"
your last paragraph
I think that's why people are upset. If you cant make a musical that's nuanced and correctly portrays people.... then you should be prepared to piss off the people who care about that nuance.
Lol, my dude. Do you think West Side Story accurately depicted anything? Little Shop of Horrors? You're out of your lane. Gtfo. You clearly just want to argue.
I'm not making the arguments that Hamilton doesnt accurately reflect the founding fathers.
I'm making the argument that if someone else makes that criticism, it's valid.
West side story is a retelling of Romeo and Juliet, but in a modern setting. If someone argued that it doesnt reflect the original, nor does it reflect modern life in any way, then that would be valid criticism.
At the end of the day, I dont give a single shit about musicals. The genre sucks, and I cant wait for it to die. Libwell Capoeira Rights just proves how shitty the genre is
Since when do liberals see Hamilton as a hero? He was very progressive at the time, in terms of his ideas on banking and changing the status quo to make the country more prosperous (as opposed to Madison, Adams, and Jefferson), but he was also essentially the father of American capitalism. And the musical paints him as very, very flawed. He is not painted as a hero.
He accomplished a lot and he had a mouth on him. I think those are the big takeaways. He was a social climber and definitely status-obsessed but I don’t think that changes how enjoyable the musical is or makes it a work of fiction. They could have added another song about him basically being a power-hungry piece of shit but I fear that would’ve pulled focus from the narrative itself
This feels very much like holding historical people to modern standards/ideals, which isn’t really fair. We talking about 250-275 years ago.
Every single person in the New World benefitted from slavery so it’s a moot point to make when we’re trying to figure out if he owned slaves.
For instance: in the future, it could be considered very inhumane and cruel to own a cat or dog(ridiculous concept but bear with me) and holding people of this day to that standard would be nonsense to anyone living in this time.
As a liberal, the amount of people that are liberal that gush over him and this musical and the entire concept of Hamilton pisses me off too. I am on your team here no need to jump down my throat
I don't think that Hamilton in the play is portrayed as a hero per se. He's clearly ambitious and charismatic but he is also petty and adulterous. He accomplished a lot of his goals but he also screwed his family in a lot of ways in the process. We're clearly meant to be sympathetic towards his story but I don't think it's all positive.
For his faults, I give him achieving the centralization of the federal government and the assumption of debt of the colonies at a time, which had it not happened, we might still be a Balkanized set of independent colonies which many have might been sold off to other countries because of the debts the revolutionary war created that were most likely insurmountable holes which they were dug into.
As a person, he was an overly-defensive, begrudging, self-aggrandized fool. His meager beginnings clearly developed into a personality disorder that transformed political disagreements into personal transgressions, in his mind.
He lobbied hard to transfer the notorious British industrial revolution with its satanic mills and child workers to the U.S. where it would richly reward his investor friends and drive down the cost of labor — his idea of developing an “economic powerhouse.”
what are the core inaccuracies iyo? like there's a bunch, but which do you think are the ones that really matter? i think it stacks up well compared to most historic films tbh, they always, always take liberties.
i am not into musicals but had heard about hamilton for years. eventually i caught some parts of it on tv and holy shit. what a steaming pile of shit. literally the same as any other musical ever made. but not even good songs like grease or the south park movie. piss.
literally the same as any other musical ever made.
You clearly don't know anything about musicals lol. You may like or dislike the rapping, but it made it stand out immensely. The hip hop beats are nothing like other big plays before, really enhanced by a more modern production
So you mean to say influential figures from the late 18th century didnt spontaneously break out into rap at momentous occasions??
What?! Next you’ll be telling me they weren’t Black either.
Dang… you’re also going to tell me that Lafayette and TJ wasn’t the same person wearing different outfits. 😢
My then-eight-year-old was so surprised the first time he saw a real portrait of Hamilton.
Except for Ben Franklin. All bets are off with that motherfucker.
Ben Franklin crashes through the window of the Continental Congress with broken wood and canvas strapped to his back.
"Oh! My glider nearly worked that time! Perhaps my weight is the problem? I know! I shall ask one of the many ladies of the night with whom I am acquainted if any of them are willing to give it a try!"
Official translation: including the original historic dialogue of that scene:
Our boy, Lil Benny Franklin buss on da scene right through the goddam window, using his latest janky-ass flyin' contraption:
"Fuck! Why my shit ain't work this time! What? My ass too fat?" "Fuck dis. Imma get one a dem skinny ass hoes I been messin wit. Then we gone see what it do."
Lmao!
I think Ben was an original member of Wu—Tang.
Do we really want to live in a country where they didn't? I choose to believe.
Of course they did. Didn't you see 1776?
https://youtu.be/DqAdlkJDt7k?t=67
Fee-hee-hee-hee-heeny!
Pretty sure King George sounded exactly like that.
That's been verified by the best historians, yes.
I strongly believe all statements on the Congress floor should be via rap battle.
That's crazy talk. Next you're going to tell me that Thomas Jefferson wasn't black.
Given that recordings from that era are spotty at best, there's no evidence they didn't. It may have been common enough that no one thought it was remarkable.
I’d like to be in the room where that happened.
As do I. I want to know how the game is played, the art of the trade, and how the sausage gets made.
Whatever. I just assume that it happens.
But no-one else is in the room that it happens
Do do doodoodoodoo DO
Well, on the third thing basically they grind up the meat and add spices and flavorings to the mix, and then extrude the mixture into sausage casings.
Extrude, great word.
Yes...but are you sure there aren't mice and horse in there? You just assume that it happens...to be pork and beef.
Well, certainly there’s lots of pork there
Yeah, I'm gonna have to say no to this
I know right? No one else was in the room where it happened
Must be nice
This is how I feel when Copilot asks me if I want a summary of the thing I just wrote.
Its clear to me that the founding fathers didnt burst into song every 5 minutes so Hamilton is definitely not a historical play!
/s
It does make me wonder if they actually could sing well.
They could probably knock out a few killer sea shanties.
nothing like a mouthful of slaves' teeth to enhance the vocal arts, y'know
Idk but I do know the real George Washington could dance like a motherfucker
It's a fairly well known historical fact that the only times George Washington was comfortable opening his mouth and showing off his fucked up wooden slave teeth was when he was belting out showtunes with the boys
They weren't wooden, they were real slave teeth. Some were hippo ivory.
I wish so bad I could visit and see medical devices in real life being used a couple hundred years ago (or more). Hippo teeth, hearing horns, and all the other stuff I need to see in real time on a real person.
He had several pairs including a set made from gold and hippo ivory which were stolen from the Smithsonian back in the 1980s. The top half of those has never been recovered.
He had another set made from lead and an assortment of animal teeth which is at Mt Vernon today.
We have records of him acquiring the teeth of enslaved people but don't know for sure if they were incorporated into his dentures
At least the British could. “The World Turned Upside Down” was a real song.
Not played at Yorktown though.
well, it's apocryphal, as i just discovered!
It is! And I think it's really cool that they used it in the musical.
he says he listened to the actual tune to see if he could use it but it was very much a drinking song so he couldn't haha
That's really interesting. I play in a fife and drum corps and in our geeky little world, some people have extensively researched World Turned Upside Down and have found that it was not played at Yorktown. It was definitely a popular drinking song around that time, and we all still play it.
The Star Spangled Banner was also based on a popular drinking song Anacreon in Heaven. At some point in time they slowed it down to anthem speed and I think that's why it's hard to sing. I think they should have left it alone. It's way cooler to have a drinking song as the national anthem.
also apocryphal is Martha Washington naming her tom cat after him...
Benedict Arnold certainly sang. Heyyyoooo
I bet Hamilton could
> Its clear to me that the founding fathers didnt burst into song every 5 minutes
So far as you know
But they did! I saw it in a documentary called 1776!
Sit down John!
Will someone shut that man up?
Voooote yes! Vooote yes!
If you guys are the real experts then I wasted all of that time watching Hamilton! then, didn’t I?
Pfft, I spent $300.00 to see it on Broadway. I was robbed, I tell you! ROBBED! No wonder I failed my American History midterm. /s
Well in the production Hamilton they don't burst into song every 5 minutes either. It's delivered entirely though song (technically an opera)
I mean, they did. Historical document 1776 proved it. Would they give them multiple Tony's if it weren't?
Of course not.
It was more like 30 seconds. Less if you count the conversations done in musical sing songy fashion.
I suppose it depends on how you define "fiction."
But it requires a really stupid definition to call the musical "fictional."
Having seen some of the booze orders.... I wouldn't be so sure about that
I bet some of them have never even seen Les Miz
They DID, but it was just contemporary styles and not rap.
/s
Most of those song and dance numbers didn't even happen.
What? Don’t you know the Declaration of Independence is a libretto? It’s just that the music was lost in the war of 1812 when the English burned Washington.
Shut it down, we have reached peak dontyouknowwhoiam. This is perfection.
This post is years old at this point. it regularly shows up in this sub.
Nuh-uh, it says he just posted it 26 seconds ago.
How about an even older joke
How about the supposedly oldest recorded joke:
One of many sources of the Ancient Sumerian joke.
The Jackdaw was the first joke.
The best time to plant a tree....
When I saw it on one of its tours, a lady behind us at intermission told her date that she was pretty sure Gorge Washington wasn’t Asian.
Like…lady, how do you even remember to breathe?
I shit you not, when Hamilton First came out a woman in a local political committee with me said “I had no idea there were so many prominent African Americans at that time”
So you are saying the google AI photos of the founding fathers was accurate? /s
Hopefully, she was joking.
She was just unlucky and caught the play on the one day the real George Washington was unavailable, and she had to see a replacement... Sad.
I hope he gets this framed
This might be the first time Lin Manuel Miranda got straight up Tony Hawked
There was also the time when someone shouted at him, "hey, congrats on Hamlet!" and he shouted back "I WISH I wrote Hamlet!" and they drove off shouting "Yay, Hamlet!"
I can't even go make fun of them on Twitter, because the account was already suspended for a TOS violation. I guess they didn't take the news that well.
Its fiction in the sense that it was based on a real person and events. Did Alexander Hamilton beat-box his philosophies? Probably yes.
I heard that’s why his wife burned his letters. They were written in verse!
Written in iambic slamtameter
Eliza: More like iambic slutameter
everyone: OOOOOOHHHH
It’s fiction as well in terms of its revisionist history, I’d wager that the commenter would still make their point even if they knew who Lin-Manuel was
The original comment that Lin-Manuel replied to is true. Beat boxing jokes aside, its bananas that people think the musical Hamilton is some sort of musical documentary like VH1 Behind the Music.
As historical rap musicals go it's astonishingly accurate, there are lots of places where it differs from what happened but that's routine.
I don’t know dude did Lin just accidentally leave out the bit where Hamilton was buying and selling slaves
Was Alexander Hamilton A Slave Owner? #CancelHamilton Controversy Explained by 2025 1000% yes, by 1800 standards barely. if you watch his words in the show he talks a much bigger game than he acts. Alexander Hamilton's Complicated Relationship to Slavery.
I didn’t say he necessarily owned them, just that he bought and sold them. My point still stands it’s revisionist fiction that’s misrepresenting actual history.
i mean sure, but it's not a play about slavery. it accurately represented what he did do (founded the manumission society, wrote articles against it, supported his friend laurens) and sure that makes him a raging hypocrite by 2025 standards but he was anti slavery by then contemporary standards.
The appeal of Hamilton is by writing him positively in 2025 standards. That’s the issue
i mean, not really? he's painted as a self obsessed self promoting endlessly verbose ass, who's also brave, brilliant and fairly extraordinary. i don't think he's painted as super woke or anything, he did in fact take steps against slavery but he was more interested in reforming US finances so that's what we see more of.
like they could have had jefferson say 'didn't you buy or sell some slaves hamilton hypocrite much' they also skipped washington having hundreds of slaves. it's just, i hate to say, not dramatically interesting because nothing really changes over the course of the play, and there's a danger of treating a huge important subject too lightly if you touch on it but don't dig in.
Does Lin Manuel Miranda know that what he wrote in Hamilton isn’t a direct explanation of historical events with all the necessary context?
in my home we believe hamilton's son was absurdly large at 9 and no one is changing that
Imagine explaining the play to the guy who wrote it.
LMM's avatar makes this even better.
and Shia LaBeouf is not a cannibal.
You don't know that.
He’s right though (at least in part). Lin Manuel-Miranda took some creative licenses in terms of events and when they happened, as well as minimizing the fact that Hamilton was a total dickhead
Hamilton is absolutely portrayed as a dickhead in the musical
yeah idk what musical you watch lmao
Yea some would call it pretty blatant revisionism.
aaron burr was the real one. lin is just cockriding a dickhead for some reason.
Nah Burr was a straight up asshole too
wait your saying that there was not rap battles during cabinet meetings? Damn it
And here I was thinking it was a documentary
It’s not entirely wrong. Some details are more “based on” … like that the Schuyler sisters didn’t have a brother, etc.
I think it’s more the fact that Lin-Manuel Miranda is the creator of the play and all its musical numbers and the person talking to them is unaware of it than the fact that it’s an adaptation.
I need to see what is being replied to. This could be a very tongue-in-cheek "how are you saying x when you know the play is an adaptation?" Did Miranda say something stupid before this?
Yeah what if there's more context to this post which we don't have access to that would completely flip our understanding of it 180 degrees? Wait... what if that's the case with EVERY social media post we see??
Is that the joke here?! I thought it was something about thinking the play is fictional.
Telling the person who wrote the play if he knows it's fiction is the point.
Yeah, but it's certainly weird to tell that to the creator of the play, as though they might have been unaware of that fact...
That's not the point of the post
Is it? Sure, saying something like that to Lin, who obviously knows better, is definitely a “do you know who you’re talking to?” situation… but I also interpret posts here as “you’re telling nonsense to the one person who would know it best.” So, yeah.
True. And also, before Hamilton, I doubt 98% of the US knew there were Schuylers relevant to Alexander Hamilton. Or that he wrote papers. Or had an affair. The play educated so many people in the way that School House Rock made it easier to recall the function of a conjunction.
Unfortunately all I remember from that song is “conjunction junction what’s your function….. something something something something something something”
"...hookin' up words and phrases and clauses" 🎶
It might be fiction, but it still provides all of my trivia from that period of American history.
Except Burr wasn't a damn fool that shot Hamilton... he was a petty bitch that shot him. (At least the way the play portrays him)
As far as I know, most of the founding father's weren't black at all but actually white so that part of it is incorrect. /s
They are right. Miranda took creative license with the history. But that's what is needed when you want them to sing songs every ten minutes.
People upset because George Washington had nice teeth, and could sing.
The funny thing is we got the jokes to counter this stupidity.
The sad thing is that this stupidity is probably expressed by more than this single botard.
And the youngins would so aptly say, we cooked fam.
It must be nice, it must be nice to have stupidity on your side.
Yeah in real life Hamilton was not the hero that modern liberals see him as based on the musical. He was very pro-elite, anti-democratic and not a man of the people. Listen to the podcast "the dollop" that has a 3 parter on him vs Aaron burr. But this article does a good quick synopsis:
https://spokesman-recorder.com/2018/09/21/hamilton-is-no-hero-to-ordinary-working-people/
Liking the musical does not mean people think Hamilton is a hero
The play being fiction or not is not the point of the post.
...the hatred of Hamilton (the musical) is almost more annoying than the hype around the musical itself? Like a piece of art doesn't have to fit all your political purity checks
Anti fandom in general is more annoying than the fandom itself. At least fandom comes from a state of enjoyment.
Anti fandom is just a bunch of people being bitter bitches that someone likes something.
If it makes you feel better, I hate it because the music is garbage and lin Manuel Miranda rights is lame as absolute fuck
Edit - just googled "best linwell Cassandra song" and My Shot came up.... I stand by every mean thing i've ever said about this man. I'd rather listen to UK rap
Oh, this is one comment where i'll take all downvotes possible. Linwell Miranda fucking sucks, i will take this opinion with me to the goddamn grave
I mean, you can't even bother to get his name right. Enjoy your downvotes
Like I said, I will take all the downvotes here.
I was right about JK Rowling, I was right about Taylor Swift. And i'll be right about Ed Sheeran and Lingood Instruction-Booklet Banana
I mean fair I don't understand most pop music also but I am not particularly angry at music being too woke or not woke enough, it does feel like so many people look at political fiction and basically want as heavy-handed messaging as Daily Wire bullshit. It's art, you can interpret it yourself.
Most people in this thread seem to hit on the accuracy in how these characters were portrayed, not if it's "left or right" enough.
It's a musical, there is literally so much depth of story you can shove in two hours of singing and still have a coherent story that can be understood. As a piece of live music the ochestration and lyrics do really innovative stuff from earlier musical tropes. Rap can generally have the music overpower the vocals, but I don't listen to much rap.
I frequent the lefty musical milieu, there is definitely cultural wars in criticisms of Hamilton. It was released during Obama's last year in office, and a lot of the marketing and popular acclaim was that it told history through hip hop and potrayed white founding fathers as POC. By around COVID and BLM the discourse on race in the US has changed pretty violently; the right just straight up trash any presence of minorities as DEI and the left were in the mood of fuck all white people (I am not white, just an observer from Asia) that a musical trying to cast founding fathers in any good light is considered inherently bad.
You can skip to the Hamilton part of this podcast but I mean, I can't think of a single song or musical project that can potray subjects as nuanced and detailed to withstand that sort of criticism. Not that if you write a good musical to appease cultural wars you will ever not have every other sect up in arms
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nyjeTUAmJ0&list=PLY-qDXZrfG_c1D9MpxLOFCd05-hMsE6pf&index=84
Bad point. The songs themselves can advance plot and/or character development. That's kinda what musicals do....
Give me two examples. And it can't be simply "Miranda rapped"
Imo, I think it's because the musical has little to no entertainment value. So people are attaching to the political angle. If that's the case, I cant be mad, Miranda chose an inherently political topic to make a musical about. It would be pretty stupid to make a musical about the founding fathers and then be all "ugh, why are people trying to make it all political?, I dont get it, this is just a musical"
I think that's why people are upset. If you cant make a musical that's nuanced and correctly portrays people.... then you should be prepared to piss off the people who care about that nuance.
Lol, my dude. Do you think West Side Story accurately depicted anything? Little Shop of Horrors? You're out of your lane. Gtfo. You clearly just want to argue.
I'm not making the arguments that Hamilton doesnt accurately reflect the founding fathers.
I'm making the argument that if someone else makes that criticism, it's valid.
West side story is a retelling of Romeo and Juliet, but in a modern setting. If someone argued that it doesnt reflect the original, nor does it reflect modern life in any way, then that would be valid criticism.
At the end of the day, I dont give a single shit about musicals. The genre sucks, and I cant wait for it to die. Libwell Capoeira Rights just proves how shitty the genre is
He ruined every scene he was in of His Dark Materials, that dude is a fucking terrible hammy actor.
Hell yeah, fuck that dude
Since when do liberals see Hamilton as a hero? He was very progressive at the time, in terms of his ideas on banking and changing the status quo to make the country more prosperous (as opposed to Madison, Adams, and Jefferson), but he was also essentially the father of American capitalism. And the musical paints him as very, very flawed. He is not painted as a hero.
He accomplished a lot and he had a mouth on him. I think those are the big takeaways. He was a social climber and definitely status-obsessed but I don’t think that changes how enjoyable the musical is or makes it a work of fiction. They could have added another song about him basically being a power-hungry piece of shit but I fear that would’ve pulled focus from the narrative itself
all the songs are about him being a powerhungry piece of shit lol
lol that’s why I said “another”… or I guess just being more explicit about high-key wanting a new monarchy
you think modern liberals see him as a hero?
we don't claim that fucking slave owner, what the hell are you even on about!? 🤣
It’s not clear Hamilton owned slaves, for what it’s worth.
Whether or not he owned slaves he knowingly benefited from them pretty spectacularly.
He disagreed and understood how wrong it was but apparently it wasn't wrong enough for him to sacrifice a political career.
Basically everyone in early America did.
This feels very much like holding historical people to modern standards/ideals, which isn’t really fair. We talking about 250-275 years ago.
Every single person in the New World benefitted from slavery so it’s a moot point to make when we’re trying to figure out if he owned slaves.
For instance: in the future, it could be considered very inhumane and cruel to own a cat or dog(ridiculous concept but bear with me) and holding people of this day to that standard would be nonsense to anyone living in this time.
Condescending tone to make a point nobody disagreed with in the first place. Plus the other guy already said the same thing.
I think it’s clearer now that he did own slaves.
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As a liberal, the amount of people that are liberal that gush over him and this musical and the entire concept of Hamilton pisses me off too. I am on your team here no need to jump down my throat
I don't think that Hamilton in the play is portrayed as a hero per se. He's clearly ambitious and charismatic but he is also petty and adulterous. He accomplished a lot of his goals but he also screwed his family in a lot of ways in the process. We're clearly meant to be sympathetic towards his story but I don't think it's all positive.
For his faults, I give him achieving the centralization of the federal government and the assumption of debt of the colonies at a time, which had it not happened, we might still be a Balkanized set of independent colonies which many have might been sold off to other countries because of the debts the revolutionary war created that were most likely insurmountable holes which they were dug into.
As a person, he was an overly-defensive, begrudging, self-aggrandized fool. His meager beginnings clearly developed into a personality disorder that transformed political disagreements into personal transgressions, in his mind.
I never thought the play framed him as a hero. It pointed out many of his flaws. It just also pointed out his accomplishments
This article is dumb as fuck
Who is Lin manuel? Im not too familiar with the play Hamilton either
He wrote the play
Yeah, he is the write and also played Hamilton in its initial run and in the released filmed version of the musical.
He knows what he wrote.
it's very good! a solid piece of pop history and the songs are catchy as hell.
this guy would be Norm in this gang
https://youtu.be/qNzNeGw8Fmo
I keep saying that magat stupidity is bottomless, the breadth and depth cannot be measured using conventional instruments.
Miranda might be the most overrated entertainer of this century so far.
lol ok
Hate to be that “well actually” bitch but Lin based the musical off of a highly inaccurate book that wasn’t even written by a historian
what are the core inaccuracies iyo? like there's a bunch, but which do you think are the ones that really matter? i think it stacks up well compared to most historic films tbh, they always, always take liberties.
i am not into musicals but had heard about hamilton for years. eventually i caught some parts of it on tv and holy shit. what a steaming pile of shit. literally the same as any other musical ever made. but not even good songs like grease or the south park movie. piss.
You're really bad at rage baiting.
judging by my downvotes at least some people are ragin.
You clearly don't know anything about musicals lol. You may like or dislike the rapping, but it made it stand out immensely. The hip hop beats are nothing like other big plays before, really enhanced by a more modern production
just because it is modern doesnt make it any less shit. and it is spectacularly shit.
That's your problem, but saying it sounds like any other musical is complete bullshit with all due respect
sounded the same to me, with all due respect.
which songs did you listen to
my god you hamilton fans are sad.
you've won the thread, gj