What makes it not innocent? I love the fact we as humans have maintained some traditions for thousands of years. It connects us to our past, which feels invaluable now being immersed in this modern and disconnected age.
Yeah, Idk why we put candles on circular birthday cakes, but it's a thing. If you would of asked me before reading it I would have it's cause it's a simple and efficient shape and fire is cool. Now I can conspire.
People who don't understand what the broad term of "Paganism" covers are often scared of traditions practiced ancients. It's part of the evil wool currently pulled over our eyes.
The article says that it's commonly claimed but that there's no evidence for it except some speculation :-D
The history of birthday candles
While it’s commonly said that the tradition of birthday candles began in ancient Greece, there’s no direct historical record of candles being placed on cakes to honor the gods. However, some scholars, such as Marie Nicola, a pop culture historian, say the idea likely stems from rituals associated with Artemis, the Greek goddess of the moon.
Archaeological excavations at the Artemision of Ephesus, one of Artemis’s major temples, have uncovered round cakes—known as noûton-gonosupahon—that were used as votive offerings.
Some modern interpretations suggest that worshippers may have lit flames to mimic moonlight and carry prayers skyward during each lunar month to honor Artemis.
“The idea of fire as divine presence is incredibly old and cross-cultural. Indo-European belief systems used fire in household altars and public ceremonies,” says Nicola.
It looks like, she's a historian of pop culture, somebody who investigates where rumours like this came from - she doesn't seem to claim to work for any university or anything, though, she's just a blogger.
I think you're right, she also has no formal historical education or employment, no peer reviewed research, no books. She's a blogger for the daily mail lmao
It must be hard to cope with religions that far outdate abrahamic faiths. Also, you can't really escape "paganism", it's baked into (haha) many, many things.
European Christians are well-aware of the church's adoption of pagan rites. Those countries have long histories preceding the churches arrival in their lands.
Yeah no joke dude, especially in the states. If you tell them that their belief system contradicts the Bible that they haven't read, they lose it. If you tell them that the story of Jesus was basically the third time that story was told (born to a virgin, water to wine, etc), that pagan tradition was adopted by the church, or that none of the Bible was written by Jesus, they go ape shit lol it's occasionally a fun game, but usually not worth hearing them complain about it.
And Jewish holidays… Funny how people seem to forget that in the original script, the term for God is “Elohim”, which directly translates as “the gods/the divine ones” (plural!). The “El” in “Elohim” stems from the ancient Canaanite/Hittite deity “El” who was their ruler god. Our modern Abrahamic religion is just an adaptation off of this ancient polytheistic Mesopotamian religion.
Many of the stories in the bible are adapted versions of mesopotamian myths like Noah, Job, ect. Which makes sense because the isrealites spent a lot of time in Babylon and thier ancestors are the decendants of the peoples who worshipped these ancient mesopotamian dieties most notably El/Enlil. In fact, Abraham's god was said to be El however I will add that El could also have been a generic name for God so it is speculation that the El he worshipped was El of the cannanites or Enlil of the mesopotamians. Either way, thier cultures were very mixed. The noah story is a direct adaptation from atrahasis where God was Enlil and the other co-dieties where Enki and Inanna(Ishtar) Enlil sent the flood, Enki warned Noah/Atrahasis and Inanna gave the rainbow. When I was looking for God post "churchianity" disillusionment, I went looking for the pre Bible lore and boy is it fascinating. It makes the Bible make much more sense. I call it biblical DLC along with stuff like the book of Enoch.
No 'El' is the cannanite name for the Egyptian god 'Amen'. Bored of people getting this wrong and talking like they're experts on the subject. The Jewish religion is ancient Egyptian although they do borrow a story or two from Mesopotamia. Even the name Israel is Isis Ra El ... three Egyptian Gods. For the record that flood myth shows up all over the world across hundred of cultures, including Egypt. Infact you also have the story of Atlantis - which also comes from Egypt. All of it originates Egypt which is far older than Sumeria. Various various cultures adopted and reworked their Gods, stories, traditions and religion etc. That's the funniest part ... 'Amen' is not the creator according to the ancient Egyptians, he's 'the hidden one'. Atum is the creator. Israelites were worshipping the wrong God all along, and still invoke the name of a dangerous occult Egyptian God the end of prayers "Amen." no wonder the world is a shit hole.
Ok I don't doubt connections there in some places and that they were all the same dieties maybe but where are your sources? Because they sound personal rather than historical/archeological. Also the civilization of ancient sumeria predates the civilization of ancient Egypt by roughly 1000 years. Like I said, I don't doubt that all of the lore comes from the same source, I just think you're getting your facts mixed up and perhaps the truth is we are both partly right rather than I'm wrong and you are 100% correct.
I suppose that makes sense this being a conspiracy subreddit. However I encourage you to learn the actual source material first so that when people question your claims (true or not, that im not debating) you have more to go on. I'm sure we'd share many of the same beliefs, the difference is I have my sources in actually reading and researching the original myths and such so when people ask, I can explain my beliefs better than so and so conspiracy theorist said it. Again, sure he could be right, probably is right about a lot of things but that argument isn't going to convince anyone. Also, you'll discover much more when you do the research yourself.
Eh, I try. Sometimes I sound like a complete Kook too especially if I try explaining conclusions I have come to via research but can't remember the exact key points to validate what I'm saying and explain how I came to those conclusions. It hard but we must all try because it's the only way others will believe.
I think it is, but at the same time I'm kinda offended because the whole point is that the Jews that maintained the ancient traditions are thriving, while everyone else is probably under them because we don't like anything in our own cultures.
The more you build a link of trust in ancient rites, the more you're protected.
I don't understand how we can freely despise everything pagan, when paganism was what led humanity to discovery.
Magic, healthcare and science, alchemy, are the same.
It's okay to point out horrible shit and propaganda, but it should be okay to accept our own roots. Our roots didn't start with Christ or Muhammad.
All of the problems related to Jews in Ancient Greece were about them trying to put their own spin on Greek traditions, not about them adopting Ancient Greek traditions and using them to this day… Which would be almost impossible because most of them (Yevanic Jews) were deported or killed during WWII (because the Germans overtook Greece.)
Also Yevanic Jews predate Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews by centuries.
Omg, read first, comment the second.
I was talking about paganism and the hate Christian conspirators have against everything pagan, when everything is actually paganism.
Cultures that move around are famous for putting their spin on existing cultures, look at the gypsies.
But regardless, I was talking about paganism! General paganism!
Attain to what you read, not on your personal interpretation, thanks.
We’re on a thread where OP made a claim regarding Ancient Greek Paganism, not a free composition writing contest for schizos.
You brought up Jews using ancient traditions to become more successful in society which wasn’t true for Yevanic Jews in regards to them using Ancient Greek Paganism and upholding their own traditions didn’t make them successful, it literally almost wiped them out of existence.
How can a group of people living on the same land from 70CE to WWII be classified as nomadic? (Or to use your term “moving around”)
Now you’re bringing up Gypsies which are in the worst socioeconomic position in Europe so obviously upholding ancient traditions isn’t a short cut to success as you claim in your original comment.
And you’re right, I didn’t read your comment thoroughly enough - I missed the part where you said science and magic are the same thing.
I guess if that’s your opinion anything that doesn’t support your claims can be explained by magic as well so what’s the point in debating?
A lot of western/catholic traditions have pagan roots. Like December 25 was the birthday of Mithras, the Indo-Iranian-turned-Roman sun god. It was meant to be celebrating winter solstice, so the death and renewal of a cycle.
Don’t forget to mention that everything about the divinity of Christ that got merged into the selected books of the bible is a spin on Mithraism. Conveniently a very popular cult among the groups that also saw the spread of early Christianity.
Jesus was very much a Christian! That’s why he wrote the Bible, duh-doy! You think a Jew could write the Bible like Jesus did, he’s the ultimate Christian for making up this religion for the masses to take over and subjugate the easily scared simpletons!
Some "pagan" traditions had to be disguised to avoid persecutions from the Church. They were not demonic/satanic. IMO, the way ancient People perceived and understood planetary bodies like Moon or gods/goddesses were different than how We understand them today. They were seen as inner forces not outer.
Did You know the word "pagan" meant "villagers" or "country dwellers" in the past before it was perverted?
Right? I mean, can you believe that there are people who believe that some god Odin made humans from a bit of driftwood on a beach? That’s utterly preposterous. Obviously Yahweh made man from dirt and woman from his rib bone.
No, no. Obviously Manu had his twin Yemu and their cosmic cow craft humanity from his genitals in an act of sacrifice! (Yes, this is a real thing people believed. Proto-Indo-European if you were curious.)
Lots of pagan tranditions continue today. If you think anything pagan is demonic you'll have to start calling the days of the week something else. Especially Saturday. It is named after Saturn (diēs Sāturnī - "Saturn's Day").
Looking forward to Christmas? Santa is Odin/Wotan. He isn't a Christian character. Yule tree, Yule log, heck, even December 25th is a pagan celebration.
Correct! It likely stems back to Platonism, which is deeply connected to Gnostic thought (and there are many different, conflicting gnostic groups) and Hermeticism, and it also influenced Jewish mysticism, early Christianity, and pre-Islamic Arabic religion and mysticism (the Picatrix is a vitally important text in planetary magic), and several other belief systems. That Mediterranean cultural milieu circa 200 BC - 300 AD is fascinating in terms of religious development and syncretism.
I mention Platonism, Gnosticism, and Hermeticism because those beliefs hold that there is a supreme God among the gods, and that the seven classical planets (ie,gods) act as Governors ("archons") over the material world, with each having more influence during specific times. Note that each of those has a different philosophy about the planets and the material world, with Gnosticism leaning heavily into the material world being a prison for the soul and the archons being evil while Hermeticism views embodiment as a beautiful thing and the Governors as spiritual brethren to humanity (but we also have to wake up to being MORE than just our bodies and fight back against being addicted to and blinded by the vices inherent to embodied existed).
Early Christianity picked up so much from Homeric tradition, too. There's a fascinating discussion on YT between two scholars, one Homeric, one New Testament (I think) who discuss the striking similarities between the two. There's suggestion parts of the NT were written to "one up" Christ over the Homeric heroes. There are deep parallels between stories in both writings. To the level that the scholars thought the NT lifted stories from Homer and just rewrote them to fit the Christian narrative.
I remember that CSI episode where a scientist character pointed out that Jesus wasn't actually born in December, but in March, the Pisces season in Western astrology.
They linked it to the conversion of the calendar.
Interestingly enough, the Orthodox celebrate Christmas on the 7th of January, for example.
My memory is shaky on this, but aren't there lambs in the Jesus birth story? Lambs aren't born in the middle of December but in Spring. Adding support to the idea Jesus' birth way moved to the already existing pagan mid-winter celebration.
Idk about that, but it's interesting that Jesus was officially born during the Capricorn season, one of the Zodiac signs most associated with Satan (Satan is also a much broader term), the other being Aquarius, the knowledge/light bringer.
My conspiracy theory is that we're led to celebrate other divine figures, rather than Jesus.
But there's also the theory that Lucifer and Jesus are actually the same, so who knows 🤷🏻♀️
Helps that most of that theory is dependent on late Middle Ages fictional stories. Satan even in classical Judaism isn’t some evil figure. They are “the accuser”, an angel of god who is more like the devils advocate for god.
Lol this is Larpagan cope. No one is lighting a candle and thinking "this is for you Artemis!" Is it really a practice if no one assigns any meaning to it?
Also the Greeks started converting to Christianity as soon as Paul began preaching to them (33AD), so you can just as easily call it a Christian practice at this point.
As usual with these attempts to link every odd tradition to paganism, there is an unaccounted1000+ year gap between the alleged pagan practice, and the institution of the modern one.
Children's birthday cakes were brought to America by the Germans, like most of our holiday and party traditions seem to have been. Their first appearance in the 1400s has no evident link to any earlier tradition, and no unbroken link to the Greeks. I suspect a lot of these new traditions were transferred from various Catholic saints' day celebrations that had been erased by the Reformation. Austerity never sits well with the common folk for long.
The ancient Greeks, even if they ever did put candles on a cake, which I doubt, did not celebrate Artemis on birthdays, but obviously enough on the monthly moon feasts. Their cakes would have been nothing like the German Geburtstagtorten which were soft iced sugar cakes that quickly became quite similar to modern ones.
(By the way, you can tell that every online site claiming this custom descended from Greeks to Germans, obtains its information from the same source. Because they all, without exception, misspell the German word as "Geburtstagorten". Go search it, you'll see. Correct the spelling and it all changes to German cake recipes!)
The real conspiracy in connection with all of this is the mass amnesia of just how German influenced America is.
Wtf about offerings something the the Goddess of the Moon also Nature, childbirth, and care for children is not innocent. What is more innocent than a baby? Maybe do some research into stuff before you come in guns a blazing against an innocent little traditional offering.
ohhhhhh the christians are gonna haaaaaaate this. LOL probably light their birthday candles while watching encanto bc it only matters if they want it to.. but tattoo? straight to hell.
You cannot convince me that humanity wouldn’t be far better off if religion was internationally banned and then wiped from everyone’s collective memory. At the very least dumb rants like this would stop.
Today is my husband's birthday and we lit a candle and had him blow it out. I asked myself, in my head, hm I wonder where that practice even came from. Then BAM this is the first thing to pop up in my feed.
They believed that the smoke from blowing out the candles carried our wishes to the heavens to be granted. None of this is any weirder than the Bible. Please give me a break.
Is there anything particularly malicious or evil about Artemis or are they about on par with Yahweh in the Old Testament? Remember, your God isn't much if a saint.
Oh perfect...just in time for my birthday on the 19th😁 Oh and I'm perfectly ok with where the tradition dates back to. More kids growing up need to be taught the actual roots of certain holidays, traditions, ect.
Dispite whether this claim is verifiable or bunk, I don't see the conspiracy. Cultures mash up customs, customs evolve over time, most "Gods" are borrowed from other cultures, Christianity is a big religious culture that does this. Everywhere they went they appropriated the dieties and heroes of the native culture and Christianized them. Many saints like sanit Brigid, most holidays like Easter and Christmas all had orgins in other cultures and were "christianized" to convert the native peoples.
Jehova comes from a Sumerian war/storm god that was worshipped by a particular sect that eventually banned the worship of any other gods. Christ stems from Mithraic cults, reformist Greek Jews, and a cultural need for a messiah during the diaspora. Every other aspect of the church was from Roman hierarchy. The Catholic Church was simply a means of Rome co-opting an in home church movement in Palestine/Egypt to ensure it didn’t influence the lower classes to revolt against the empire.
Allegedly but yeah it's possible. Much is speculation but i think its possible Jehovah could possibly be a revolving ba'al Hadad-Yam back and forth taking the reigns thus explaining why sometimes old testament God was sometimes more the angry diety or more the loving merciful one. There's a battle. Enlil and the counsel of God's wanted Yam to take over ruling earth but Hadad swooped in and stole the title and banished Yam and eventually won the title. Or at least that's my understanding of the story. It mimics the same egyptian story of Horus vs Set. And a funny connection is it also is the same story line as the Lion King.
Christ-Mass is also a Pagan holiday, which few are aware of the origins. Pope Julius introduced “Christmas” in the 4th century as a way to assimilate pagans into the Roman Catholic church. Winter solstice/saturnalia/birth of sun god Tammuz was traditionally celebrated in December by the Pagans. Before this, Christians did not celebrate anything of the sort. Interesting that today Pagans and Christian’s celebrate Christmas enthusiastically, without question. The word “Christmas” is a combination of Christ + Mass. Look up mass in the Roman Catholic Catechism - it’ll take you to ‘Eucharist’. Plenty to read and learn about!
Selene is the Greek moon goddess. The Roman form would be Luna. There were two sets of moon goddess/sun god. You had Selene and Helios and then Artemis and Apollo. Lots of ancient religions doubled up on their deities. You have both Ceres and Pomona— Roman goddesses of harvest and gardening.
A lot of them “double up” because they start to absorb others, split apart, have new languages, then get absorbed again. A ton of “rebirth” stories are really just that. Dionysus is the best example of it, because his worship extends back before any other Olympic god is mentioned.
Well yes… the current powers be believe they can bring God down and fight him , just so happens to be also the same god the other big two believe in. So yes beyond the big 3 it’s all Satan and irrelevant . Most of history is about those 3 and their shenanigans. 🤷🏻♂️
Really just the past 1500 years. Judaism was a regional thing for a few centuries after eradicating the Canaanites but before being steamrolled by every other empire passing through. Christianity was popularized by emperors who wanted a nice distraction from the wealthy Roman’s collapsing their own empire in addition to direct control over a lovely hierarchy. Islam isn’t really that far different from Christianity, probably because it was adapted from Christianity and a reformist Jewish tradition to begin with.
Ok but 1500 years is a bloody enough stretch of a time if you ask me . I also find it irrelevant because of the deep Abrahamic roots they share, even more because the older two were individually informed and aware of the 3rd coming, , the stage was set long ago babe.
I’m curious why this is a bad thing? Maybe sacrifices and offerings to the old gods need to still exist. We just need to send them in the form of old corrupt politicians.
Guess what , that whole bread /body, wine/blood thing…
Well, maybe what you are saying is that the conspiracy is that we should respect our pagan roots.
So it loses its innocence because it's a pagan tradition? Taking something written by humans about 2000 years ago as the absolute truth while rejecting every other thought system is wild, especially since we've been around for about 300,000 years.
Bro, I was born here (USA). Nowhere did I say Paganism is bad. It's just discreetly intertwined into our daily lives. My kids go trick or treating every year, I'm not extremist. They're only going to be kids once.
“Yet another pagan tradition masked as an innocent celebration” that’s the only reason I assumed it was my bad
Good thing though I remember the kids who weren’t allowed to go trick or treating growing up they always seemed kinda bummed or they where full into it and kinda weird lol
No worries, I can understand the perception. It's one of many pagan practices continuing today. We
And TBH, when I was a kid, I had to park my car at work behind a fence to avoid mischief night eggs. Still woke up to trees covered in paper towel rolls.
Now, mischief night is a thing of the past, what used to be crowds of kids trick or treating is dwindling down to a few parents driving in from the town over.
Barely any decorations. Atleast where I live. It's bittersweet :\
On the other hand, Christmas decorations are highly competitive and a sight to see.
I don't celebrate Christmas but still take my kids to the open-to-public houses for the experience.
What actual problem are you posing here? I don't get it. What's wrong with lighting some cake with candles and stuff on the birthday? How is this not innocent and what does it imply on the population as a whole?
The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger.
[Meta] Sticky Comment
Rule 2 does not apply when replying to this stickied comment.
Rule 2 does apply throughout the rest of this thread.
What this means: Please keep any "meta" discussion directed at specific users, mods, or /r/conspiracy in general in this comment chain only.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
What makes it not innocent? I love the fact we as humans have maintained some traditions for thousands of years. It connects us to our past, which feels invaluable now being immersed in this modern and disconnected age.
Yeah, Idk why we put candles on circular birthday cakes, but it's a thing. If you would of asked me before reading it I would have it's cause it's a simple and efficient shape and fire is cool. Now I can conspire.
My mom made cakes in a square pan.
So, she was obviously a mason then.
Damn…never knew she was keeping so many secrets
I cackled.
People who don't understand what the broad term of "Paganism" covers are often scared of traditions practiced ancients. It's part of the evil wool currently pulled over our eyes.
Yeah i agree I think this makes it even more cool.
Awesome a sourceless text blurb written on someone’s notes app. I’m gonna trust this with my life.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/history-of-birthday-candles
The article says that it's commonly claimed but that there's no evidence for it except some speculation :-D
You should look up that "pop culture historian." Which is clearly code for someone who just makes shit up.
It looks like, she's a historian of pop culture, somebody who investigates where rumours like this came from - she doesn't seem to claim to work for any university or anything, though, she's just a blogger.
I think you're right, she also has no formal historical education or employment, no peer reviewed research, no books. She's a blogger for the daily mail lmao
They expect me to believe someone baked a cake 2,000 years ago and didn't eat it?
Awesome an article written on National Geographic’s website. I’m gonna trust this with my life.
Awesome a skeptical comment written on Reddit. I’m gonna repeat this with my life.
To be fair I had to agree that the Disney corporation can legally murder me to read that article so I can understand some scepticism about it…
Is this a dad joke meme?
Haha
this is how the entirety of reddit works.
If they where lying wouldn't saying it's the sun make more sense
*Kind of*.. we base months on lunar cycles but one shift around the sun for a year, so both kinda make sense.
What do you mean "masked as an innocent tradition"? Who's hurt with a birthday cake?
OP's correlation: "Pagan" = Satan. Which of course is not.
You when you throw a pie at clowns face, the greeks invented that one also. /s
https://youtu.be/iK6SS8CXYZo?si=tERe5rMS6Gm5k4je
😂😂🎂 Happy Birthday, Bill
Only those that don't get one, usually.
Sky daddy is offended! We'll burn in hell for that.
The cake is a Troy Horse 🤯🤯🤯
Human tradition is passed down culturally over centuries. More at 6.
What is wrong with paganism?
Literally every catholic tradition is just paganism repackaged as something different
It's a scary word!!!
It must be hard to cope with religions that far outdate abrahamic faiths. Also, you can't really escape "paganism", it's baked into (haha) many, many things.
A round cake ensures that it cooks evenly in the oven. Sure it may be some pagan ritual but its also a really practical shape to cook something.
Thats why Pizzas, cookies, sourdough bread, and many many other breads/pastries are round.
Circles are really convenient
I love the idea of honoring a goddess on my birthday. This makes me happy.
[removed]
I'm sayin tho. My first thought was where's the conspiracy? It's not like the Christians stole their celebrations from the Pagans or anything.
Oh, wait.
If you tell a Christian that a lot is made up, borrowed or stolen they tend to get offended or classify it as religious persecution.
Christmas for example... classic pagan re-work, but if you don't say "Merry Christmas" and say "Happy Holidays" it's a "war on Christmas".
European Christians are well-aware of the church's adoption of pagan rites. Those countries have long histories preceding the churches arrival in their lands.
Yeah no joke dude, especially in the states. If you tell them that their belief system contradicts the Bible that they haven't read, they lose it. If you tell them that the story of Jesus was basically the third time that story was told (born to a virgin, water to wine, etc), that pagan tradition was adopted by the church, or that none of the Bible was written by Jesus, they go ape shit lol it's occasionally a fun game, but usually not worth hearing them complain about it.
I particularly enjoy getting rather festive - Santa hat, earrings, nailpolish, etc - and then wishing rednecks a happy holiday period
LOL dress up as Santa and then wish them a happy Saturnalia
Show me a Christian holiday that isn’t modeled after a pagan ritual
And Jewish holidays… Funny how people seem to forget that in the original script, the term for God is “Elohim”, which directly translates as “the gods/the divine ones” (plural!). The “El” in “Elohim” stems from the ancient Canaanite/Hittite deity “El” who was their ruler god. Our modern Abrahamic religion is just an adaptation off of this ancient polytheistic Mesopotamian religion.
Many of the stories in the bible are adapted versions of mesopotamian myths like Noah, Job, ect. Which makes sense because the isrealites spent a lot of time in Babylon and thier ancestors are the decendants of the peoples who worshipped these ancient mesopotamian dieties most notably El/Enlil. In fact, Abraham's god was said to be El however I will add that El could also have been a generic name for God so it is speculation that the El he worshipped was El of the cannanites or Enlil of the mesopotamians. Either way, thier cultures were very mixed. The noah story is a direct adaptation from atrahasis where God was Enlil and the other co-dieties where Enki and Inanna(Ishtar) Enlil sent the flood, Enki warned Noah/Atrahasis and Inanna gave the rainbow. When I was looking for God post "churchianity" disillusionment, I went looking for the pre Bible lore and boy is it fascinating. It makes the Bible make much more sense. I call it biblical DLC along with stuff like the book of Enoch.
No 'El' is the cannanite name for the Egyptian god 'Amen'. Bored of people getting this wrong and talking like they're experts on the subject. The Jewish religion is ancient Egyptian although they do borrow a story or two from Mesopotamia. Even the name Israel is Isis Ra El ... three Egyptian Gods. For the record that flood myth shows up all over the world across hundred of cultures, including Egypt. Infact you also have the story of Atlantis - which also comes from Egypt. All of it originates Egypt which is far older than Sumeria. Various various cultures adopted and reworked their Gods, stories, traditions and religion etc. That's the funniest part ... 'Amen' is not the creator according to the ancient Egyptians, he's 'the hidden one'. Atum is the creator. Israelites were worshipping the wrong God all along, and still invoke the name of a dangerous occult Egyptian God the end of prayers "Amen." no wonder the world is a shit hole.
Ok I don't doubt connections there in some places and that they were all the same dieties maybe but where are your sources? Because they sound personal rather than historical/archeological. Also the civilization of ancient sumeria predates the civilization of ancient Egypt by roughly 1000 years. Like I said, I don't doubt that all of the lore comes from the same source, I just think you're getting your facts mixed up and perhaps the truth is we are both partly right rather than I'm wrong and you are 100% correct.
Bill Cooper stated this.
I suppose that makes sense this being a conspiracy subreddit. However I encourage you to learn the actual source material first so that when people question your claims (true or not, that im not debating) you have more to go on. I'm sure we'd share many of the same beliefs, the difference is I have my sources in actually reading and researching the original myths and such so when people ask, I can explain my beliefs better than so and so conspiracy theorist said it. Again, sure he could be right, probably is right about a lot of things but that argument isn't going to convince anyone. Also, you'll discover much more when you do the research yourself.
🙂 lovely response and I agree completely.
If I could pick one subject matter, dedicate myself to it, I can and will conquer it.
Problem for me is once I start seeking knowledge/research, I do not know when it will end, nor do I want it to dictate my life.
Much respect to you if you can actually take the time out to hone your answers.
Eh, I try. Sometimes I sound like a complete Kook too especially if I try explaining conclusions I have come to via research but can't remember the exact key points to validate what I'm saying and explain how I came to those conclusions. It hard but we must all try because it's the only way others will believe.
that's the real conspiracy
Wait until you learn about the origins of the names of the months…
And the names of the days of the week.
[removed]
Or is it?
I think it is, but at the same time I'm kinda offended because the whole point is that the Jews that maintained the ancient traditions are thriving, while everyone else is probably under them because we don't like anything in our own cultures.
The more you build a link of trust in ancient rites, the more you're protected.
I don't understand how we can freely despise everything pagan, when paganism was what led humanity to discovery.
Magic, healthcare and science, alchemy, are the same.
It's okay to point out horrible shit and propaganda, but it should be okay to accept our own roots. Our roots didn't start with Christ or Muhammad.
What are you talking about?
All of the problems related to Jews in Ancient Greece were about them trying to put their own spin on Greek traditions, not about them adopting Ancient Greek traditions and using them to this day… Which would be almost impossible because most of them (Yevanic Jews) were deported or killed during WWII (because the Germans overtook Greece.)
Also Yevanic Jews predate Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews by centuries.
Omg, read first, comment the second.
I was talking about paganism and the hate Christian conspirators have against everything pagan, when everything is actually paganism.
Cultures that move around are famous for putting their spin on existing cultures, look at the gypsies.
But regardless, I was talking about paganism! General paganism!
Attain to what you read, not on your personal interpretation, thanks.
We’re on a thread where OP made a claim regarding Ancient Greek Paganism, not a free composition writing contest for schizos.
You brought up Jews using ancient traditions to become more successful in society which wasn’t true for Yevanic Jews in regards to them using Ancient Greek Paganism and upholding their own traditions didn’t make them successful, it literally almost wiped them out of existence.
How can a group of people living on the same land from 70CE to WWII be classified as nomadic? (Or to use your term “moving around”)
Now you’re bringing up Gypsies which are in the worst socioeconomic position in Europe so obviously upholding ancient traditions isn’t a short cut to success as you claim in your original comment.
And you’re right, I didn’t read your comment thoroughly enough - I missed the part where you said science and magic are the same thing.
I guess if that’s your opinion anything that doesn’t support your claims can be explained by magic as well so what’s the point in debating?
A lot of western/catholic traditions have pagan roots. Like December 25 was the birthday of Mithras, the Indo-Iranian-turned-Roman sun god. It was meant to be celebrating winter solstice, so the death and renewal of a cycle.
Don’t forget to mention that everything about the divinity of Christ that got merged into the selected books of the bible is a spin on Mithraism. Conveniently a very popular cult among the groups that also saw the spread of early Christianity.
[removed]
Jesus was very much a Christian! That’s why he wrote the Bible, duh-doy! You think a Jew could write the Bible like Jesus did, he’s the ultimate Christian for making up this religion for the masses to take over and subjugate the easily scared simpletons!
Reading stuff like this is so fascinating. Do you know the origins of any other ancient traditions?
Some "pagan" traditions had to be disguised to avoid persecutions from the Church. They were not demonic/satanic. IMO, the way ancient People perceived and understood planetary bodies like Moon or gods/goddesses were different than how We understand them today. They were seen as inner forces not outer.
Did You know the word "pagan" meant "villagers" or "country dwellers" in the past before it was perverted?
Why does it being pagan automatically preclude it from being innocent? Just because it isn't your preferred religious brand?
Right? I mean, can you believe that there are people who believe that some god Odin made humans from a bit of driftwood on a beach? That’s utterly preposterous. Obviously Yahweh made man from dirt and woman from his rib bone.
No, no. Obviously Manu had his twin Yemu and their cosmic cow craft humanity from his genitals in an act of sacrifice! (Yes, this is a real thing people believed. Proto-Indo-European if you were curious.)
If I could use a gif, I’d throw in that trading spouses lady screaming “It’s DARK-SIDED!!!! She’s not a CHRISTIANNNN!”
wait till I tell you about about real mesning of Christmas..
So what because it's not about Jesus is somehow a problem? Oh no not Pagan 😱
[removed]
Lots of pagan tranditions continue today. If you think anything pagan is demonic you'll have to start calling the days of the week something else. Especially Saturday. It is named after Saturn (diēs Sāturnī - "Saturn's Day").
Looking forward to Christmas? Santa is Odin/Wotan. He isn't a Christian character. Yule tree, Yule log, heck, even December 25th is a pagan celebration.
To add to this, the modern days of the week each correspond to one of the seven classical planets and their Greek/Roman or Germanic/Norse deities:
Monday: Moon's Day
Tuesday: Tyr's Day, with Tyr being the Germanic "counterparts" of Mars via the interpretatio romana
Wednesday: Woden's (ie, Odin) Day, counterpart to Mercury
Thursday: Thor's Day, counterpart to Jupiter
Friday: Frigg's Day, counterpart to Venus
Saturday: Saturn's Day
Sunday: (take a guess)
Sunday must be the day of our Lord, King of Kings, ruler of the world, the blessed Sun. I mean, Son! /s
Monday in Spanish is "Lunes".
Moon in Spanish = "La Luna"
So many coincidences that are right under our noses.
Correct! It likely stems back to Platonism, which is deeply connected to Gnostic thought (and there are many different, conflicting gnostic groups) and Hermeticism, and it also influenced Jewish mysticism, early Christianity, and pre-Islamic Arabic religion and mysticism (the Picatrix is a vitally important text in planetary magic), and several other belief systems. That Mediterranean cultural milieu circa 200 BC - 300 AD is fascinating in terms of religious development and syncretism.
I mention Platonism, Gnosticism, and Hermeticism because those beliefs hold that there is a supreme God among the gods, and that the seven classical planets (ie,gods) act as Governors ("archons") over the material world, with each having more influence during specific times. Note that each of those has a different philosophy about the planets and the material world, with Gnosticism leaning heavily into the material world being a prison for the soul and the archons being evil while Hermeticism views embodiment as a beautiful thing and the Governors as spiritual brethren to humanity (but we also have to wake up to being MORE than just our bodies and fight back against being addicted to and blinded by the vices inherent to embodied existed).
My man, that was so insightful, thank you.
I understand the duality/overlap and contrasts of the three philosophical ideologies you mentioned.
But I never even knew of the Picatrex, nor t's heavy influence on Western Occultism!
Just ordered a recent translation, excited to read each word.
Thanks again.
Of course! It's a...dense read, though astrology is not my forte, so I'm a bit biased in that regard.
I don't expect to comprehend it until the 3rd readover 🤣
Early Christianity picked up so much from Homeric tradition, too. There's a fascinating discussion on YT between two scholars, one Homeric, one New Testament (I think) who discuss the striking similarities between the two. There's suggestion parts of the NT were written to "one up" Christ over the Homeric heroes. There are deep parallels between stories in both writings. To the level that the scholars thought the NT lifted stories from Homer and just rewrote them to fit the Christian narrative.
Tuesday is still Mardi in French.
Oh no Satan controls the days of the week!
Well, just the one, technically
I remember that CSI episode where a scientist character pointed out that Jesus wasn't actually born in December, but in March, the Pisces season in Western astrology.
They linked it to the conversion of the calendar.
Interestingly enough, the Orthodox celebrate Christmas on the 7th of January, for example.
My memory is shaky on this, but aren't there lambs in the Jesus birth story? Lambs aren't born in the middle of December but in Spring. Adding support to the idea Jesus' birth way moved to the already existing pagan mid-winter celebration.
Idk about that, but it's interesting that Jesus was officially born during the Capricorn season, one of the Zodiac signs most associated with Satan (Satan is also a much broader term), the other being Aquarius, the knowledge/light bringer.
My conspiracy theory is that we're led to celebrate other divine figures, rather than Jesus.
But there's also the theory that Lucifer and Jesus are actually the same, so who knows 🤷🏻♀️
I'm gonna stick to my paganism.
Helps that most of that theory is dependent on late Middle Ages fictional stories. Satan even in classical Judaism isn’t some evil figure. They are “the accuser”, an angel of god who is more like the devils advocate for god.
Better rename some of the months too.
The Jesus resurrection story is inspired by the astronomy-based winter solstice. And Christmas time is related to the Sol Invictus celebration.
Too bad Dec 25 Christmas is actually older than Sol Invictus then.
Fun fact, in Portugal the names of the days of the week are not Pagan-related.
Fun fact. Portugal is small. S-M-ALL.
The pagans drank water too
What's wrong with paganism?
For one, there's too many of them that drive. They take all the good parking spots for Saturnalia
Fair enough.
Oh jeez guess we're all doing rituals and casting spells unknowingly
If you know about Crowley moon cakes (sorry, "cakes of light") are much different lol
Well can you fill the rest of us in
Cake of Light
Simple Igredients: -Meal -Honey -Redwine -Oil of Abramelin -Olive oil -Beeswing
Exotic Ingredients: -Menstreul Blood -Child Blood -Enemy Blood -Priest/Worshipper Blood -Animal Blood -Semen -Vaginal Fluids
He came back and started a decent podcast on Spotify we wish him well 🤣
And Christmas was originally spelled Y-U-L-E. Yawn
Lol this is Larpagan cope. No one is lighting a candle and thinking "this is for you Artemis!" Is it really a practice if no one assigns any meaning to it?
Also the Greeks started converting to Christianity as soon as Paul began preaching to them (33AD), so you can just as easily call it a Christian practice at this point.
As usual with these attempts to link every odd tradition to paganism, there is an unaccounted1000+ year gap between the alleged pagan practice, and the institution of the modern one.
Children's birthday cakes were brought to America by the Germans, like most of our holiday and party traditions seem to have been. Their first appearance in the 1400s has no evident link to any earlier tradition, and no unbroken link to the Greeks. I suspect a lot of these new traditions were transferred from various Catholic saints' day celebrations that had been erased by the Reformation. Austerity never sits well with the common folk for long.
The ancient Greeks, even if they ever did put candles on a cake, which I doubt, did not celebrate Artemis on birthdays, but obviously enough on the monthly moon feasts. Their cakes would have been nothing like the German Geburtstagtorten which were soft iced sugar cakes that quickly became quite similar to modern ones.
(By the way, you can tell that every online site claiming this custom descended from Greeks to Germans, obtains its information from the same source. Because they all, without exception, misspell the German word as "Geburtstagorten". Go search it, you'll see. Correct the spelling and it all changes to German cake recipes!)
The real conspiracy in connection with all of this is the mass amnesia of just how German influenced America is.
Wtf about offerings something the the Goddess of the Moon also Nature, childbirth, and care for children is not innocent. What is more innocent than a baby? Maybe do some research into stuff before you come in guns a blazing against an innocent little traditional offering.
Can't wait to share this with my Christian family members
The Jehovah witness friends are going to be frozen out of confusion.
The Jehovah's Witnesses don't celebrate Christmas or birthdays for the exact reason that's in the original post.
And what. We have kept a tradition for years. What is the harm exactly? Please enlighten me! Or you just pointing out a lovely tradition.
I remember in Kindergartenn, we sat in a circle, and the teacher whispered something into the ear of the student seated to her right.
That student whispered that statement to the person next to her.
This relay of information continued until we got back to the teacher, at which point the statement had COMPLETELY changed.
The tradition (whispering) is still alive, but the intent (statement) was lost.
All I did was rewind the tape to get to the original intent.
Yeah I understand that. Nice analogy.
ohhhhhh the christians are gonna haaaaaaate this. LOL probably light their birthday candles while watching encanto bc it only matters if they want it to.. but tattoo? straight to hell.
You cannot convince me that humanity wouldn’t be far better off if religion was internationally banned and then wiped from everyone’s collective memory. At the very least dumb rants like this would stop.
Today is my husband's birthday and we lit a candle and had him blow it out. I asked myself, in my head, hm I wonder where that practice even came from. Then BAM this is the first thing to pop up in my feed.
Conspiracy #2: Everyones wishes come true.
🤔
They believed that the smoke from blowing out the candles carried our wishes to the heavens to be granted. None of this is any weirder than the Bible. Please give me a break.
Ohhhh “pagan” so you’re one of those people
The United States is a Druidic empire, with Druidic traditions/practices.
Just paraphrasing Mr. Bill Cooper
Is there anything particularly malicious or evil about Artemis or are they about on par with Yahweh in the Old Testament? Remember, your God isn't much if a saint.
Not necessarily, Artemis is the goddess of the hunt, the wilderness, wild animals, and childbirth.
NASA's Artemis Program intent is to "return humans to the moon".
Nobody tell OP about the origins of Christmas 😆
Yule?
Worshipping Artemis and other Greek gods is better, than worshipping Baal.
This guy Baals
Wait til you learn what making a wish before blowing out a candle is about, it'll have you wringing your hands and crying to skydaddy I'm sure
Man refuses to watch the Olympics saying it’s pagan.
Did the Greeks eat a baby afterward?
I just want to say, happy Woden's Day OP. May he bless you with wisdom on this, His day.
Do no cakes for you? What a party pooper
I stopped celebrating my birthday 20 years ago.
People would take off from work while I would show up, with no special expectations.
Always seen it as the opposite of "birth"; it's just another day for me. Celebrating life when death is inevitable just never clicked with me.
My wife and kids celebrate their birthdays, I'm no party pooper!
Oh perfect...just in time for my birthday on the 19th😁 Oh and I'm perfectly ok with where the tradition dates back to. More kids growing up need to be taught the actual roots of certain holidays, traditions, ect.
Don't tell my religious family this
Dispite whether this claim is verifiable or bunk, I don't see the conspiracy. Cultures mash up customs, customs evolve over time, most "Gods" are borrowed from other cultures, Christianity is a big religious culture that does this. Everywhere they went they appropriated the dieties and heroes of the native culture and Christianized them. Many saints like sanit Brigid, most holidays like Easter and Christmas all had orgins in other cultures and were "christianized" to convert the native peoples.
Jehova comes from a Sumerian war/storm god that was worshipped by a particular sect that eventually banned the worship of any other gods. Christ stems from Mithraic cults, reformist Greek Jews, and a cultural need for a messiah during the diaspora. Every other aspect of the church was from Roman hierarchy. The Catholic Church was simply a means of Rome co-opting an in home church movement in Palestine/Egypt to ensure it didn’t influence the lower classes to revolt against the empire.
Allegedly but yeah it's possible. Much is speculation but i think its possible Jehovah could possibly be a revolving ba'al Hadad-Yam back and forth taking the reigns thus explaining why sometimes old testament God was sometimes more the angry diety or more the loving merciful one. There's a battle. Enlil and the counsel of God's wanted Yam to take over ruling earth but Hadad swooped in and stole the title and banished Yam and eventually won the title. Or at least that's my understanding of the story. It mimics the same egyptian story of Horus vs Set. And a funny connection is it also is the same story line as the Lion King.
Christ-Mass is also a Pagan holiday, which few are aware of the origins. Pope Julius introduced “Christmas” in the 4th century as a way to assimilate pagans into the Roman Catholic church. Winter solstice/saturnalia/birth of sun god Tammuz was traditionally celebrated in December by the Pagans. Before this, Christians did not celebrate anything of the sort. Interesting that today Pagans and Christian’s celebrate Christmas enthusiastically, without question. The word “Christmas” is a combination of Christ + Mass. Look up mass in the Roman Catholic Catechism - it’ll take you to ‘Eucharist’. Plenty to read and learn about!
this post cannot be serious
Now we eat cake with ingredients that read like battery cleaner. Celebrate life with a lil slice of death.
Here i thought the moon goddess was selune. Or is that roman? Idk .
Selene is the Greek moon goddess. The Roman form would be Luna. There were two sets of moon goddess/sun god. You had Selene and Helios and then Artemis and Apollo. Lots of ancient religions doubled up on their deities. You have both Ceres and Pomona— Roman goddesses of harvest and gardening.
A lot of them “double up” because they start to absorb others, split apart, have new languages, then get absorbed again. A ton of “rebirth” stories are really just that. Dionysus is the best example of it, because his worship extends back before any other Olympic god is mentioned.
Sureeee I’m sure the reason a cake is round… (a common fucking shape) and has CANDLES on it is because of the moon goddess.
And Halloween and Christmas have pagan origins...who cares
Yeah and pair that with the happy birthday song we sing in unison… it’s a literal ritual
I swear Satan has 900 identities and names , it’s frigging funny 🤦🏽🤣
"Everything that's not my God is Satan"
Well yes… the current powers be believe they can bring God down and fight him , just so happens to be also the same god the other big two believe in. So yes beyond the big 3 it’s all Satan and irrelevant . Most of history is about those 3 and their shenanigans. 🤷🏻♂️
Really just the past 1500 years. Judaism was a regional thing for a few centuries after eradicating the Canaanites but before being steamrolled by every other empire passing through. Christianity was popularized by emperors who wanted a nice distraction from the wealthy Roman’s collapsing their own empire in addition to direct control over a lovely hierarchy. Islam isn’t really that far different from Christianity, probably because it was adapted from Christianity and a reformist Jewish tradition to begin with.
Ok but 1500 years is a bloody enough stretch of a time if you ask me . I also find it irrelevant because of the deep Abrahamic roots they share, even more because the older two were individually informed and aware of the 3rd coming, , the stage was set long ago babe.
Made from refined flour and sugar.
I’m curious why this is a bad thing? Maybe sacrifices and offerings to the old gods need to still exist. We just need to send them in the form of old corrupt politicians.
🤣
Guess what , that whole bread /body, wine/blood thing… Well, maybe what you are saying is that the conspiracy is that we should respect our pagan roots.
And?
Or just forgotten? "Masked" is what you get from all the major religions.
I cannot refute you there, exceptionally logical statement.
Okay…..
Oh boy...
The only Artemis I worship has a bleached asshole.
THE MOON HAUNTS YOU!
Before I got to the end I thought this was gonna be about Moon Pies
So when we sing Happy Birthday, are we actually singing to the moon? 👀
Oh well. Love it anyway. Have fun with everything!
Why wouldn’t this be innocent??
So it loses its innocence because it's a pagan tradition? Taking something written by humans about 2000 years ago as the absolute truth while rejecting every other thought system is wild, especially since we've been around for about 300,000 years.
The real treasure was the pagans we made along the way.
Wait until you hear about Christmas trees.
Lol pagan doesn’t = bad
You probably ban your kids from celebrating Halloween even tho they just wanna dress up and Spider-Man and get candy
Bro, I was born here (USA). Nowhere did I say Paganism is bad. It's just discreetly intertwined into our daily lives. My kids go trick or treating every year, I'm not extremist. They're only going to be kids once.
The text at the bottom implies it’s negative
“Yet another pagan tradition masked as an innocent celebration” that’s the only reason I assumed it was my bad
Good thing though I remember the kids who weren’t allowed to go trick or treating growing up they always seemed kinda bummed or they where full into it and kinda weird lol
No worries, I can understand the perception. It's one of many pagan practices continuing today. We
And TBH, when I was a kid, I had to park my car at work behind a fence to avoid mischief night eggs. Still woke up to trees covered in paper towel rolls.
Now, mischief night is a thing of the past, what used to be crowds of kids trick or treating is dwindling down to a few parents driving in from the town over.
Barely any decorations. Atleast where I live. It's bittersweet :\
On the other hand, Christmas decorations are highly competitive and a sight to see.
I don't celebrate Christmas but still take my kids to the open-to-public houses for the experience.
Circles are the best shape to cook. It's the most even
Ah yes because we are all terrified Christians or muslims here
What actual problem are you posing here? I don't get it. What's wrong with lighting some cake with candles and stuff on the birthday? How is this not innocent and what does it imply on the population as a whole?
The world is pagan.
wen conspiracy? seem general fine..
OP has an issue with pagan traditions?
I think the co-option of Christianity has done ALOT more damage than any “pagan traditions” have.
The Bible said God hates this and that they did that for a thing they called the queen of heaven too
Nothing new under the sun
God hates everything pretty much. According to the Bible.
Honestly I'm not sure it applies to a birthday cake though
I think it's about the intent behind it
Jeremiah 7 18
The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger.