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You understand that imperial measures are also made up too, right?
Like, humans around the world disagree with the Fahrenheit scale but you treat it like it’s some sort of natural thing that somehow makes more sense than Celsius. Fact is, Fahrenheit is super weird. I’ve had Americans try and defend it by saying to treat it like. “Percentage of how hot it is” but that’s also not
Intuitive. Everyone has different heat tolerance.
I find 70F almost unbearable where I am due to it being very uncommon. Meanwhile, Texans and Californians would be layering up.
Fahrenheit isn’t saying how humans feel anymore than Celsius is. It’s saying how humans feel relative to a different made up scale which makes less sense at low and mid temperatures
20 and 25 was a bad example. My point is the gap between degrees in Celsius is way too big. Theres no reason for thermostats to be in .5 degree increments.
I have heard this "Farenheit is for humans, Celsius is for water" argument before, and I thought it was more intuitive, until I actually thought more about it. The idea is that 0 Farenheit is really cold for humans and 100 is really hot is true, sure, but in addition to the subjectivity the other commenter mentioned, it doesn't stop there. I feel really cold around 30-40, and it just gets colder and colder the lower you go. I feel really hot at like 80-90, and it feels hotter the more you go. This whole "Farenheit is better for how humans gauge temperature" argument feels like a cope to retroactively justify the arbitrariness of Imperial system measurement compared to Celcius. It makes sense when you just think about 100 and 0, but when you think more about it, it is just a more arbitrary version of Celcius but without the benefit of easy math. If it wasn't you would expect 50 to be the most comfortable temperature, but most people find that quite chilly.
I see what youre saying. You mention how things get colder and colder or hotter and hotter as they go beyond your comfort zone right? Wouod you agree that 10 F feels colder than 30 F? Would you say that -20 feels colder than -10? At some point (0/100) the actual temprrature becomes irrelevant and you realize that it doesnt matter and its too cold/hot. -10 and -20 might as well be the same. Same for 100 and 110
Fahrenheit on the other hand is a HUMAN scale. Measuring 0 to 100 based on how hot it feels to a human. Of course tolerances vary from person to person, but on average I bet people wouod agree that 0 is the lower limit of whats tolerable with 100 being the upper limit. Its in imprecise scale, but its a human scale, and it directly relates to how a human would feel.
The lower defining point, 0° Fahrenheit, was actually established as the freezing temperature of a solution of brine made from a mixture of water, ice, and ammonium chloride.
If we're talking about picking points that are relevant to ordinary people, then Celsius clearly wins.
That was never the basis for Fahrenheit. It sounds like you're shoehorning that into the concept by assigning importance to what is essentially an arbitrary number after the fact.
Fahrenheit chose the components of the brine solution based on easy reproducibility, not practicality in daily life.
Fahrenheit does make displays simpler in practice though for thermostats.
Celcius thermostats require half temperatures to be broadly usable as the difference between putting it on 21 and 22 is not granular enough for most and 21.5 is required. This is not an issue with Fahrenheit.
Youre right about how Fahrenheit was formed. But that doesnt change how its used today. Its not used to measure a brine solution. Its scale does align very well with human tolerances for temperature however.
You are just using vibes to justify the systems that are more familiar to you. Your temperature argument is literally vibes based, as what someone would find tolerable will vary greatly depending on what climate they are used to.
Your distance argument is insane too. We can all agree a foot is 12 inches? What the fuck is an inch my dude? Only other people already using your system would agree with you.
You also talk about ease of use and 12 having more fractions but forget the part you mentioned at the top of your post. Metric system easily uses smaller units when necessary. A third of a meter is a bit more than 33 centimeters and 3 millimeters. Measuring tools have that marked.
Btw aren’t messing tapes complicated to use in your system? I mean if you are using fractions for smaller than inch things.
Also, the claim that it’s more useful to be able to have many fractions of miles instead of it being a reasonable number of feet is quite dumb to me and you make no attempt to justify it.
Your arguments are just really weak. It’s as if I tried to argue in favor of metric by saying in my country a city block is 100 meters long and it’s easy to know if something it’s X Km away it’s just 10x that many blocks.
Btw see what I used up there? Abbreviations. Having a prefix that modifies a standard unit makes those a lot easier.
Also, you aren’t mention volume and weight units. Maybe cause you know yours are insane there.
As for volume I’ll just mention that having it tied to the units for distance makes it easier to visualize the volume of something. A liter is 1000 cm3 or cubic centimeters. So you can imagine a cube of sides 10 cm.
Metric units are just way more related to each other. A liter of water weights a kilogram. That’s cause it has a density of 1g/cm3. I have no idea what’s the density of water in American I don’t even know which units you’d use for it.
Great distances are impossible to visualize. Even in metric. It doesnt really matter how theyre defined only how easy it is to calculate them. And at least with miles you have more factors than with a kilometer.
Also, an inch is 1/12th of a foot. It doesnt make sense until you realize that a foot is divisible by 1,2,3,4 and 6. You cant break up 1 meter into thirds without using decimals.
Also, I didnt include volume in my post because i prefer metric for volume measurements.
Edit: IMO you shouldn't use weight to measure volume as either can change on a variety factors.
You cant break up 1 meter into thirds without using decimals.
and what is the problem with that? do you not understand how decimals work? You keep harping on whole numbers like somehow dealing with fractions or decimals is too hard for you?
Decimals are fine. But when you are making estimates, which is my whole point here, decimals imply a level of precision that isnt there. When you say .5 meters theres an implication of precision there. When i say a foot and a half no one assumes i mean exactly 18 inches. I dont really know how else to explain that. Decimals imply precision even in situations where precision isnt expected or possible. And that is where the imperial system shines.
Mate stop a second and re read how insane what you wrote sounds.
The pro foot argument is that you can give a specific number of inches when diving by three.
But now you are claiming that the upside is that you can use fractions to imply you are giving a vague estimate and not being that precise… something you can do with literally any unit of measurement. Just say half a meter instead of .5
50 is a big number my guy. Try to visualize 50 somethings with any degree of accuracy, it just doesnt work. At least not as well as only 6 somethings. The imperial system is designed to be easy to navigate with whole numbers and are attached to things that have easy reference points.
You keep sounding crazy. We are talking about units of measurement here. We don’t need to imagine 50 of anything. Do you imagine 12 inches when you think of a foot? And then visualize half of those going away when you talk about half a foot?
You are moving the goalposts all the time.
You are also forgetting that metric is base ten so groups of ten of anything are pretty easy use. They even have a name ten centimeters is a decimeter it’s just not often used … because it’s extremely easy to deal with 10x as many centimeters. If people had trouble “visualizing” that many centimeters then the decimeter would have become more popular.
why would you say "point five metres" but "half a foot"? if you were talking about 0.5 metres you would say "half a metre". I feel like you just have a hard time with numbers or something and are trying to convert that into some weird thing that metric system is hard to understand. Like keeping things in whole numbers when you divide is not a ratinale argument as to why one system is easier to understand than the other.
You learn what these measurements by growing up with them not by relating to them to other things. And a lot of these relations aren’t relevant anymore. Like an inch being three barley seeds or whatever. The idea of Fahrenheit being what’s tolerable to a person makes sense but I grew up in Canada and -25c(-13f) is what I find the point where outside starts to be intolerable. But when I know 0c is when water freezes I know that roads might start to be icy. And then +30c and -30c are the two extremes of zero. There’s no guessing or subjectivity. When someone asks for a litre of water and I don’t have a measuring cup I can weigh 1000g of water because it’s all instantly convertible without math or knowing arbitrary numbers. If you grow up with metric you instantly know what a meter is from seeing metre sticks and using it throughout school. And then without experiencing a kilometre I can visualize it because it’s 1000 metres. But with a mile you only understand what a mile is because you’ve experienced a mile. You can’t see a foot and then multiply to understand what a mile is because how are you going to remember how many feet are in a mile. How do you quickly convert 370feet into yards? Maybe for casual talking it’s easier and only because you speak English and imperial comes from English speaking places so in other languages it makes even less sense but for casual conversation in English that is the only place imperial is better.
You can visualize 1000 meter sticks?🤔 lets be honest, no one is visualizing large distances. What matters is your ability to calculate them easily. And yea its easier to calculate a kilometer than a mile. But a mile is 5280 feet, which has more factors that 1000. Meaning you can break it up into more equal whole numbers than a kilometer.
In all I do agree with you, what makes sense depends on where you come from. My argument is that metric is a precise scientific scale that can make sense to a lot of people and is easy to visualize. But imperial is a human scale designed to be easily understandable even if it lacks precision.
I can visualize a 1km. Because I can easily visualize 10m and I know how long that is to walk and then you do that 100 times. I can easily estimate that distance. Math is easier to work with in tens because that's how our whole modern math system is built. Base ten. If you forget how many yards are in a mile or how many feet are in a mile or how many inches are in foot there is no way to know other than to look it up. They are arbitrary numbers. It's great that you can divide them and get whole numbers but what if you can't remember them in the first place? I guess the only benefit you can come up with for the imperial system is that you get whole numbers when you divide. I bet most people find it easier to divide 1000 by half, quarters, and thirds in their head than 5280. Even if you get a decimal.
You cant visualize 1km. Sure you can make it make sense for you but you cant visualize 1km. Just like i cant visualize a mile. They are the defects "long distance unit. They only make sense because they are big. Big thing is big. Is a mile better than a km? No but a km isnt better than a mile either. Yes its easy to say that a km is 1000 meters. Yes its harder to say a mile is 5280 feet. But at the end of the day theyre both really long distances that you cant visualize.
Imagine youre a soldier in the heat of battle and youve been ordered to move your squad 300 yards east. Well a yard is 3 feet ypu can look down and visualize 3 feet because your foot, the namesake for the distance itself, is right there. You realize that 1 yard is about the length of one stride so you take 300 stride east. Now, yes, you can say a meter is about 1 stride as well, but what if you forget that(to use your silly argument)? How can you determine how far a meter is? Did you bring your meter stick?
You know that the U.S. military uses metric for distance right? But they use paces in military for distance on foot. They don't say meters or feet because in those situations precise measurements don't matter. But I guess you're right. In a WW1 style firefight I'd use my feet to measure my yards.
It doesn't work because your reason for thinking imperial is more human is because you grew up with it so it's more intuitive for you to use and that it has names based on body parts so it seems more human. It's like if I said metric is better because a meter is about half a person right and you don't have to use fractions or remember random numbers to use metric and all the factors are in base ten which everyone uses for everything so it's more human. You're conflating more human with intuitive for you because you're used to it. A real human measuring system would be stuff like cubits where you literally use your forearm to measure.
My point is the imperial system is designed to be broken apart and used in halves, quarters, eighths, etc. Without having to calculate anything, just break something in half, then in half again then again. Or into 3rds, then in half etc. Its excels when you need fast human scale estimation and flexibility.
10 in half is 5. 10 in quarters is 2.5, 10 in thirds is 3.3, that is literally all you need to know for metric and estimating measurements. In imperial you have to know what a mile is. Ok cool you remember 5260 feet. Or was it 5280? I’m not sure but I need a third of a mile in feet. 5280/3 is um let me think for a sec. 5000/3 is 1666.66 + 200/3 is 66.66 + 80/3is 26.66 = 1760. Ok thank goodness I got a number without a decimal. Actually we need that in yards ok that’s going to be 1760/3. So I pull out my calculator because I can’t do that in my head again and I get 586.66 yards. Thank goodness I’m using imperial because 586.66 yards in a third mile is an easy number to remember.
As oppose to metric where I need a third of a kilometer. 333.3 metres. Ok but could you give it to me in centimetres no problem. 33,333.3 centimetres. I need half that back in km. Cool 0.166km. It’s way more intuitive to use on the fly in your head even if it has decimals.
no one actually estimates distances by converting miles into feet, then yards, then back again.
The point is that with imperial you stop at “a third of a mile” or “half a foot” and never do the math at all. the fraction is the estimate. Metric pushes you toward numeric subdivision (333.3 m, 0.166 km), which is fine mathematically but shifts you into calculation mode instead of spatial judgment.
So the advantage being discussed isn’t fewer decimals it’s that the imperial system lets you avoid numbers altogether when making rough estimates.
But now youre just mixing metric with imperial. Fractions and thinking in parts of a whole are intrinsic to the imperial system. Metric is defining something in an absolute form.
If thats the advantage of imperial then it’s equal with metric. Except that metric can be both very accurate and rough estimations, easier to use if you know math fundamentals, can convert easily between volume, weight, distance, and energy. Plus it works in every language.
Everything you point out is insanely arbitrary and is based off what you grew up with. I have zero clue what 30, 50 and 70 fahrenheit feel like or represent. Conversely I know exactly what 10, 20, 30 celsius feels like and it makes perfect sense to talk in terms of censius for how hot and cold things are from 0 to 100. From -70 (I deel with frozen shit for work), to 190 (air fryer). It all makes sense to me. You cant blanket claim its better for humans when its all arbitrary and incomprehensible for someone who isnt used to the measurement.
As for your points. Measurements being divisible by base 12 vs base 10. We use base 12 for clocks and.... thats it. I can tell you 30% of 1cm, I can tell you 45% of 1m. I can tell you 72% of 1km. Can you tell me what 83% of a foot is in inches? I can tell you what 1/3 of of a metre is. Its 33.33cm. Zero thinking required. Further accuracy highly unnecessary unless the tolerances are super important and if it is, you can just keep going because again its in base 10. Its easy. Its a stretch to suggest its easier to work with inches through to feet then miles when the imperial system is fundamentally designed to be easy to work with from a math stand point. Everything else is just what you are bought up with in terms of preference and understanding. I have zero idea what an inch is, you have zero idea what a cm is.
Temperature. You arbitrarily chose 100 now as the range while just prior you stated the system not based on base 10 as superior. Surely you can see why anyone would find this argument weak. On a scale of 1 to 1000 everything in celsius and Fahrenheit make no sense. On a scale of 0-50 everything in Celsius makes sense and fahrenheit doesnt
Date: The most superior date is international standard year/month/day, makes the most sense from a sorting standpoint. But my counter point is, what is the date of the US independence? The fourth of July. The simple fact of the matter is that the day is the most important part of the date and is therefore first. It is the most volatile, the most precise, and the most relevant in day to day.
12 is used in degrees in a circle, months in a year, hours in a day. Its a highly composite number with 6 factors. Its a very easy number to break apart into other whole numbers.
Why would you need to know what 83% of a foot is? Like I said. If you need precision, metric is the way to go. Imperial is a human system and humans are imperfect beings. If you have to tell how long a branch is does it make more sense to say "its 3.183 meters" or "its about 12 and a half feet"? 3.183 meters probably makes sense to you, and thats fine. But it adds an assumption of precision to something that wasnt necessarily measured precisely. An inch is 1/12 of a foot. A centimeter is 1/100 of a meter. I understand both systems just fine. A foot being broken into 12 parts is easier to visualize and approximate than a meter being broken into 100 parts. At a glance can you tell me how far up a wall 83 cm would be without measuring? 83 cm is about 2 feet and 8.5 inches. Which is 2 and 2/3 feet. Whats easier to visualize in this example, 83 small segments, or 2 and 2 thirds?
The difference with temperature is you cant say 30 degrees is half as hot as 60 degrees. Because its arbitrary. What does it mean for something to be half as hot as something else? It doesnt make sense. As a scale staying within base 10 works better because it represents percentages. 30°F is roughly 30% of the average max temperature tolerance for humans.
Date: youre turning my date format argument into an america argument, which it is not. My argument was that having the day first in the date on a document can confuse a reader looking back at several documents. The day being a volatile number means that multiple documents written on separate but closely related days can have vastly different numbers. Have the month first lets the reader know these are all from a similar time. Helps with bookkeeping. Regardless, my preferred format is 18 DEC 2025. It eliminates any potential confusion and the capital letters on the middle stand out amongst the numbers making it very obvious when they document was made. To humor you with your point though.. the fourth of July is only one such example where america uses day before month. September 11th, december 25th, January 1st, May 4th etc. All popular days in the US expressed as I have written them. I dont know why the 4th of July is written uniquely from other US dates, but as an american "the 4th of july" reads more like the name of a holiday than a date. When refering to itas a date id still say July 4th.
The actual units are all arbitrary. The fact that you have to try so hard to bend the numbers to fit a human notion only shows how weak the utility is. For example I happen to know my foot is in fact 12 inches…it’s also a size 14 making my foot size 20% larger than average. Your use of the word roughly is doing a lot of work here..in reality the average foot is less than 10 inches… or 25cm which is also a nice even number. Both are equally arbitrary if you are insisting on using a human foot for measurement.
We can pick any random part of the body and assign numbers to it. Maybe that was useful to someone in the Middle Ages but not very helpful today. The simple truth is that imperial measurements feel more intuitive to you because that’s what you’re used to. If you adopted or were taught a different unit then it would feel just as intuitive
Having easy conversions is just simply far more useful. On a daily basis I find myself converting units far more often than I need to guesstimate a distance with my foot.
Temperature…again it’s just what you are used to and like the foot…it doesn’t even match up with real life. 100 degrees and 0 degrees f is completely arbitrary and useless for any sort of degree. Water is super useful because it is so abundant.
For dates…both are wrong the superior way is year month day for organizing computers or files.
Them being arbitrary is critical t9 my whole point. Its not a precise system, not by any means. To use imperial measurements with any form of precision is insane. You use imperial measurements as ballpark estimates. "Its about 3 and a half feet long" "2 and a quarter inches deep" etc.
We can pick any random part of the body and assign numbers to it. Maybe that was useful to someone in the Middle Ages but not very helpful today
This is literally why the metric system uses base 10. Because we have 10 fingers. But 10 as a base number is inferior as it only has 4 factors. The smallest number with more than 5 is 12 at 6 factors, a much better candidate imo.
Im sure youre aware of how big your feet are without having to look. You can look at the ground and visualize walking heel to toe a distance and estimate how many feet away it is. No its not accurate, but its close and thats all that matters with imperial measurements.
I disagree with year being first in date format. You can usually tell at a glance how many years old a document is based on wear. So putting year first is unnecessary. I do agree that neither mmddyy or ddmmyy are the ideal format. I prefer ddmmmyyyy or 18 DEC 2025. It eliminates any confusion.
If they are both arbitrary then why is the one that is easier to convert not the deciding factor?
You can ballpark measures with metric too. Like I said it just depends on what you’re used to. Personally I don’t measure distances with my feet….its too small of a unit to visual estimate. I use like my height or city blocks or football fields or something.
The base 12 argument doesn’t really hold much water because it’s only relevant to inches and feet and only for whole units. Once you start considering yards and miles it falls apart. And as soon as you are dealing with an actual measurement with decimals or percentages it’s a lot harder. If I measure something with a ruler and it is 15 feet 3 inches…the math for converting to yards or inches is a lot harder. For metric something that is 15 meters 20 cm is 1520 cm. Easy.
Also the inch is too big to be useful as the smallest base standard. Metric is infinitely scalable in both directions.
I understand the argument for base 12 systems, but it’s unnecessarily confusing when we use and learn base 10 for everything else. I guess it just really depends on whether you are encountering fractions or percentiles more often. But people aren’t very good at fractions. For example I will be the first to admit that putting my sockets in order of 1/4” 5/16” and 3/8” inch takes a lot more thinking effort than ordering my metric sockets.
Don’t even get me started on Volume, which is even more confusing and harder to remember.
Youre looking the imperial system from the perspective of the metric system. Youre trying to make the i.perial system make sense the same way the metric system does. They are fundamentally different. Units go into each other in metric, and yes they technically do for imperial as well, but they are each their own units used for their own purposes. You only convert them when its necessary. Some things are best measured in inches even though you could simplify to feet. TV screen size for example. I have a 75 inch tv. No one would say 6 feet 3 inch tv. Each unit in imperial has its own use case.
Fractions are annoying youre right. But they are quite intuitive when you think about it. 5/16s is pretty damn confusing to visualize at first. But you know a quarter of 16 is 4 and this is just a little more than that. So its a little more that a quarter which is easy to visualize without having to measure. You cant really say the same thing for 17 mm.
Lets look at two measurements from both systems and break down the thought process for visualizing the distance.
Metric: 3.36m is 3 meters, 3 centimeters and 6 millimeters. Pretty straight forward
Imperial: 8 feet and 10 inches. Thats it. The measurement already explains itself.
You haven’t really given any compelling reason why, given the same starting point, I would choose imperial over metric. I know the history of why it exists and I’m not discounting the fact that for people guesstimating the size of fields or rows of wheat without a measuring system the foot would be convenient. But in the modern world, even for human scales, there just isn’t a good reason. It’s just less convenient in virtually every aspect.
Imperial being the “human feeling measurement” system is entirely just reverse justification for better understanding the imperial system because you grew up with it
Nobody who grew up with metric is struggling to visualise a metre because there is no natural comparison to a metre like a foot is roughly a human sized foot. Measurement systems “human element” is entirely driven by your own intimacy with it not what makes sense to a proverbial
There is no inherent advantage to a system you could teach someone who doesn’t understand either that imperial has some measurements that can be roughly translated to natural things (like a foot to a foot) because internal visualisation of metric isn’t hard if you actually know the metric system as anyone outside of America can tell you
It’s easy to find body points to measure in whatever system you like.
A meter is about my waist height, 1.5 is the bottom of my chin and 100mm / 10cm is about the width of a hand.
The only one that doesn’t work well for everyday life is temperature in Kelvin - while the steps are the same as Celsius, the it’s much less helpful saying it’s 270 Kelvin in the freezer and 453 Kelvin in the oven
A metre compares about to an adult human male leg as a foot does to an adult human male foot, and by that I mean within 85% average.
For reference, the average adult male U.S.A. foot is about 86% of a foot, the unit, in length, and then consider that most inhabitants there are not adult males so the average foot will be considerably shorter. The idea that the human foot maps well to the unit is a weird myth I will never understand.
Of all of the bad arguments in this post, the one governing dates is the worst. What day is it? The 17th. Of what month? November. Of what year? 2026. Smallest unit of calendrical time (day); larger unit (month); largest unit (year.) I moved to America and there will be a 6 at the front—this should mean it’s the 6th, it’s by far the most rational concept. No, it’s June? Oh and what day 06/03/26? In either case you are going to have potential confusion up until the 13th. Why not stick with day month year like the rest of the entire world? I mess it up every time and it has zero positive aspects.
And coming to bat for the mile, Jesus, how many people genuinely know how many yards are in a mile without checking? Be real with me. Do you know how many feet are in a mile? No because it’s stupid. If only powers of ten could come to our aid. 5 points to Hufflepuff for the exterior temperature; Fahrenheit is possibly better in this one arena of life. The rest is bullshit. Should we adopt stones from the UK as well? Max out the idiocy?
The day being first doesnt make sense because its a bad way of telling how long ago something way. The month being first makes more sense as its a less volatile number, but not the year which changes so infrequently that it would be unnecessary.
10 is bad because its only divisible by 1,2, and 5. 12 is divisible by 1,2,3,4, and 6. Which is why we use 360 degrees in a circle, 24 hours in a day, and 12 months per year.
We got the number system we use from the ancient Sumerians. They would count the segments on their four fingers which gave us a base 6/12 system. It makes a lot of sense for a lot of things in my opinion
Base 60 is good for time, no question. It was the one French revolutionary reform that went nowhere, decimal time. But things like the mile don’t have anything to do with that number system. Even granting it has a lot of factors, they don’t come into play as no one uses 1/32 of a mile under any circumstances. It is an unadulteratedly bad system for distance. And factors of ten are self-evidently superior; you just move the decimal point. “I can divide it by both three and four!” Yes, very nice, now imagine you can move the comma one place value to the left and you’re done.
DD/MM/YY is ordered appropriately Shortest to longest in terms of time.
Hmm
But the first number being the day can confuse a reader observing documents. Days change so frequently that you can have several documents made in a short period of time with the first number in the date being 1, 17, 8, 20.
A pain indeed!
So by place the month first in the date, all of those documents have 8 in the first spot, yoy know immediately that they are all from a similar time.
Let's go!!
And of course the year is on the end which is also easy to observe.
Im saying that the ends of the date format are the easiest to see at a glance, so putting the day in the middle allows for the more important information to be easily readable
Hard disagree on the temperature take. 0F isn't the "lower limit of what's tolerable" unless you live somewhere super specific - that's like -18C which would literally kill you pretty quick without proper gear. Meanwhile 32F (0C) is actually useful info because that's when water freezes and you know roads might be icy
The whole "human scale" thing falls apart when you realize most of the world uses Celsius just fine and has zero issues knowing that 20C is room temp and 35C is hot
This all seems post-rationalised based on your own experiences rather than on anything objective.
But we can all agree that on average a foot is probably about 12 inches right?
My foot is about that. My wife’s is a good few centimetres shorter.
Well 12 is divisible by 1,2,3,4, and 6 whereas 10 is only divisible by 1,2 and 5. Its a nicer number to break apart quickly without thinking too much.
You know what is even easier? Instead of saying 100cm, you can call it a metre. You can also divide it neatly into 100 different parts. Need to multiply a distance? Easy - and you can then turn it into kilometres simply.
on average I bet people would agree that 0 is the lower limit of whats tolerable with 100 being the upper limit
Where I live it almost never gets below 32F. If it ever got to 0F, there would be widespread deaths and our infrastructure would shut down. Meanwhile it is often well over 100F for days. So fahrenheit has absolutely no relation to “human” senses.
But the first number being the day can confuse a reader observing documents
I cannot understand this at all. Why would this make any more sense than just having the first (smallest) number change? I would suggest that YYYYMMDD is even better though, as it files nicely on a computer.
When you're an engineer that deals with units on a daily basis, precise or not, metric is much more fluid to use than imperial. I work with large structures so it's nice having round numbers to deal with, not weird fractionals in sixteenths.
Most people would disagree with you about a foot size. For an above-average man, a foot is a foot, but the same won't be said for the average woman.
The divisibility of feet into inches doesn't matter - dividing by ten is always going to be easier than dividing by 12 or 16. I'd rather divide 3.7m by 10cm increments than 3'-4" in 6" increments.
How often do you need single digit precision for temperature scales? Celsius and Fahrenheit only differ by a factor of roughly 2, so if you're okay with using half numbers for your climate controls, then readjusting to the scale of 0 through 35 of above-freezing temperature swings isn't much of a hassle
YYYY-MM-DD is the preferred sort for filesystems that most people in the country should be using. DD-MM-YYYY is just the flip of that. Again, not a big pivot when you're used to doing the latter
10 stuck because we have 10 fingers and thats easier to see from a distance. Ive always though 10 was such a weird number. You can have 10 objects packed together nicely. 9, or especially 12 would be a much nicer base number.
I touched on 10 fingers/toes in my post. 10 doesnt work because its only divisible by 1,2, and 5. 12 is divisible by 1,2,3,4, and 6. Its the same reason we have 360 degrees in a circle and 24 (2x12) hours in a day.
hours in the day and 360 degrees are arbitrary, they could be larger without any problem.
In fact degrees are separated into minutes and seconds.
but human counting is in base 10 and thats why most Humans use it, using the metric system aligns measuring things with the human method of counting.
but your whole argument was that it was for humans so it was better, if you agree that base 10 is for humans surely metric should be the same since it is also.
You are almost correct. For humans the system of measurement the are most familiar with works better than other systems.
For people who grew up with metric, having to break things into 2 units (eg 8 feet, 10 inches) seems needlessly complex, and picking 32 degrees as the freezing point of water is plain crazy. Likewise people who grew up with imperial are a bit phased to hear a normal male height is 1.8m.
All of your justifications fall into this gut feel category, and they generally don't resonate to metric native people. Or to put it another way, your points indicate that the US system feel better for people who are used to it, not for humans in general.
The part you are missing is that which way the vibes lean varies by what you are used to.
As a person who grew up with the metric system, I can say that personally none of your listed benefits hit home for me. I could go through and write a similar post about why metric is better for everyday use, but I doubt many would seem real to you. And this is because the vibes are all based on familiarity.
Or to put it in terms similar to your CMV; for humans the system of measurement they are familiar with is better for everyday use than another unfamiliar system.
Yea, youre 100% right. I just think imperial measurements are easier for a human to break apart and rationalize than metrics. But of course it because its how I was raised. Idk
You dont need precision to know how hot it is outside right now. You dont need precision to know how far away you are from your TV. Unless you do, then metrics works better. But for humans using a human scale that aligns closer to human needs, imperial works better.
People get used to any measurement system they use, yeah? So it comes down to the slope rather than the values. For example, can you tell the difference between 70F and 71F? No. So the difference of 1F is meaningless to people. But 1C ~= 2F which is starting to become meaningful because now we're talking the difference between 70F and 72F.
And metric is better because you can use whatever prefix makes sense in context of whatever you are doing and anyone can make some sense of it. Are you a home baker? Weight out 250g of flour. And you know, with some basic maths, how much 1kg is (kilo=1000). And once you have a grasp on 1kg if someone tells you to go grab 250kg of flour you can instantly understand that you can't lift that. But in imperial it would be weigh out 1/2 pound flour and go grab 40 stone (whatever the fuck that is) of flour. No connection. Useless unless you grew up in the system. With metric you just need to understand the prefixes and you're good.
Next, we need to realise that having different measurement systems results in idiotic situations like multi-million dollar interplantary probes crashing into planets because of unit conversion. So it becomes very important that we align on one measurement system and that that system needs to be flexible for use in all situations - whether you are making a drug that has an effective dose of 100ng or whether you are trying to determine if you can lift a 1kg bag of flour or whether you are trying to slow down a 600kg interplantary probe.
My argument here is that the metric system is a precise system that works to ensure everything is mathematically sound and is easy to calculate.
The imperial system is an easy system for a human to use to approximate measurements based on how things feel in a current situation. Its a human system. Humans weren't meant to guide space probes. Do I think the imperial system should be used for that regardless? No, not at all. I think the imperial system is a great system for humans to use for human purposes. Like telling how hot it is outside. Or how long a branch is, or how heavy a rock is. Basic, everyday stuff that doesnt require precision.
If your measurements require precision, use the metric system, its the better more obvious choice. If not, use imperial.
Its just easier to break imperial measurements down to smaller bits than metric. Yes, despite the base 10 aspect of the metric system. I believe for the most part its easier with the imperial system to use smaller measurements. I will say that obviously the imperial system is imperfect and changes should be made, like 1 pound should be 12 ounces instead of 16 for example.
And metric is better because you can use whatever prefix makes sense in context of whatever you are doing and anyone can make some sense of it. Are you a home baker? Weight out 250g of flour. And you know, with some basic maths, how much 1kg is (kilo=1000). And once you have a grasp on 1kg if someone tells you to go grab 250kg of flour you can instantly understand that you can't lift that. But in imperial it would be weigh out 1/2 pound flour and go grab 40 stone (whatever the fuck that is) of flour. No connection. Useless unless you grew up in the system. With metric you just need to understand the prefixes and you're good.
Next, we need to realise that having different measurement systems results in idiotic situations like multi-million dollar interplantary probes crashing into planets because of unit conversion. So it becomes very important that we align on one measurement system and that that system needs to be flexible for use in all situations.
Your first point: you can say the exact same thing for imperial. "Use some basic math to convert to the higher weight" also, no one uses stones as a measurement.
Second point: I agree. But again IMPERIAL SHOULD NOT BE USED FOR PRECISE MEASUREMENTS how many times do I have to repeat myself on this? In scientific measurements metric should be used. A scenario where someone uses the wrong measurement system is not the fault of the measurement system, that person was going to make a mistake somewhere regardless, just happened to be the wrong units.
The consistent x10 conversions are better than anything you e mentioned. If you are actually doing something with the measurements, you want that conversion factor
10 was not the key part there. Consistent was the key part. A consistent conversation scheme across is a huge benefit. Way better than being divisible by 3 in a base 10 system
.3333333333333333333333...... you cant do it and make it a rational number. Sure you can find that for everything even in imperial measurements but dividing into 3rds is a very common practice.
Meter is a step. Everyone knows what step of theirs is a meter. Foot is somebody's foot, most likely not yours. So metric length is much more personal and connected to each individual human by your own logic.
Fahrenheit doesn't have any universal number connected to humans. Only personal vibes and feelings that differ drastically even in only country that uses it. Celsius has freezing point which changes everybody's feeling from cold to freezing due to reaction of water in the air. So it is more human and personal unlike Fahrenheit that is just connected to two random wrongly gagged temperatures.
Last argument is just pure nonsense. You most likely know what year or months is now. Also when you are wondering about something that happened long ago you once again get info in blocks in order. Putting things randomly out of order only creates mess and adds unnecessary complications. And with documents argument, by placing dates as either yyyy/mm/dd or dd/mm/yyyy you easily go through two blocks of i for that are side by side and zoom you onto month of specific year that you want and then you just go through days, instead of splitting that info for no reason.
You are just speaking from the point of habit and trying to justify why using cleaver is better than using hammer to hammer nails because that's how you were taught since childhood.
You are simply accustomed to fahrenheit. It feels familiar, so the boundaries you define for 0 and 100 seems intuitive to you.
0°F is -18°C. I have never experienced that in my lifetime (I live in the England), but I have experienced 0°C. It's a meaningful temperature with visible changes outside because of the frozen water. 0°C is already far too cold for me; I hate it. Does this count as a temperature so low that it's not "tolerable" to me? In which case, it fits better than 0°F. The fact that the "tolerable" quality of 0°F varies so much from person to person makes it a useless marker.
100°F, as well. You try to suggest there's something more objective than just "it's a hot temperature" but there's really nothing more to it than that. Sure, the termperature at which water boils is not useful for weather, but the fact that fahrenheit makes 100 technically achieveable doesn't suggest any actual benefit to me other than "100 is a nice round number". Well, so is 10 and so is 1000 but those aren't special and that doesn't matter either.
They're no better or no worse. Just arbitrary systems. The best one is the one you're used to. It's why QWERTY is still number one.
But we can all agree that on average a foot is probably about 12 inches right?
No, not really. And the fact that you need these long-winded explanations to justify the system may be an indication that it isn't as intuitive as you think.
Date: DD/MM/YY is ordered appropriately from. Shortest to longest in terms of time. But the first number being the day can confuse a reader observing documents
So this just seems like a last minute correction of a flawed system. Why not just use Y/M/D?
A foot is bigger than an average foot. This is especially true if you're a woman, at which point it is completely arbitrary and has no connection to your body anymore. An inch is even more arbitrary.
A meter is a big step for any purpose that does not require precision, which also allows you to easily do rough measurements by just walking in big steps.
But again, 5280 has MANY factors.
Yeah, and they're all in calculator range anyways. We have those in our pockets now. All the time. Meanwhile 10 is the base of our numeric system, and allows trivial conversion over orders of magnitude.
Measuring 0 to 100 based on how hot it feels to a human.
This is literally just what you're used to. There is no other factor to this. The beginning and end of "what it feels to a human" according to you are 100% arbitrary. At least celsius tells you when you need to be concerned about slipping on ice.
But the first number being the day can confuse a reader observing documents.
Let us not adjust everything for someone not smart enough to keep track of dates on documents. If you're concerned about sorting, we should switch to ISO standard, which goes year-month-date, at least that has some utility in file sorting. Beyond that, putting things in order is perfectly sensible.
I feel like you’re just making up reasons that the Imperial system is better.
Celsius is a far more ‘human’ scale as most humans only care about two temperatures: the temperature water boils and the temperature water freezes. You care about water boiling for cooking stuff, freezing for weather stuff. Its much easier to remember 0 and 100 then it is 32 and 212. Additionally, as somebody from the Northern US there is a drastic difference between a -4 degrees F with and without wind chill. The temperature is more of a risk factor, but the wind chill is also an equally important risk factor.
Humans recognize everything as relative. If you know a scale, regardless of what markers were used as a baseline, it will be equally useful to you.
What you said is only relateable for people who grew up with the imperial system.
Your argument is essentially like "English is the best langauge for humans. When I speak Spanish I always have to translate in my head from English. With English I can just naturally speak."
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You understand that imperial measures are also made up too, right?
Like, humans around the world disagree with the Fahrenheit scale but you treat it like it’s some sort of natural thing that somehow makes more sense than Celsius. Fact is, Fahrenheit is super weird. I’ve had Americans try and defend it by saying to treat it like. “Percentage of how hot it is” but that’s also not Intuitive. Everyone has different heat tolerance.
I find 70F almost unbearable where I am due to it being very uncommon. Meanwhile, Texans and Californians would be layering up.
Fahrenheit isn’t saying how humans feel anymore than Celsius is. It’s saying how humans feel relative to a different made up scale which makes less sense at low and mid temperatures
Obviously. But theyre made up with humans in mind.
I agree that neither system is perfect. But the range of tolerable numbers is greater for fahrenheit
I probably can't tell 21C and 20C apart, so I very much doubt you can tell 70F and 71F apart.
When I lived in the netherlands my thermostat went up in .5°C increments. It was so strange. And there was a HUGE difference between 20 C and 25C
...yes, because 5 degrees Celsius is a big difference! that's nearly 10 Fahrenheits!
20 and 25 was a bad example. My point is the gap between degrees in Celsius is way too big. Theres no reason for thermostats to be in .5 degree increments.
I have heard this "Farenheit is for humans, Celsius is for water" argument before, and I thought it was more intuitive, until I actually thought more about it. The idea is that 0 Farenheit is really cold for humans and 100 is really hot is true, sure, but in addition to the subjectivity the other commenter mentioned, it doesn't stop there. I feel really cold around 30-40, and it just gets colder and colder the lower you go. I feel really hot at like 80-90, and it feels hotter the more you go. This whole "Farenheit is better for how humans gauge temperature" argument feels like a cope to retroactively justify the arbitrariness of Imperial system measurement compared to Celcius. It makes sense when you just think about 100 and 0, but when you think more about it, it is just a more arbitrary version of Celcius but without the benefit of easy math. If it wasn't you would expect 50 to be the most comfortable temperature, but most people find that quite chilly.
I see what youre saying. You mention how things get colder and colder or hotter and hotter as they go beyond your comfort zone right? Wouod you agree that 10 F feels colder than 30 F? Would you say that -20 feels colder than -10? At some point (0/100) the actual temprrature becomes irrelevant and you realize that it doesnt matter and its too cold/hot. -10 and -20 might as well be the same. Same for 100 and 110
The lower defining point, 0° Fahrenheit, was actually established as the freezing temperature of a solution of brine made from a mixture of water, ice, and ammonium chloride.
If we're talking about picking points that are relevant to ordinary people, then Celsius clearly wins.
Youre right, but the scales aligns better for humans than Celsius. The range of tolerable degrees is greater for F
That was never the basis for Fahrenheit. It sounds like you're shoehorning that into the concept by assigning importance to what is essentially an arbitrary number after the fact.
Fahrenheit chose the components of the brine solution based on easy reproducibility, not practicality in daily life.
Fahrenheit does make displays simpler in practice though for thermostats.
Celcius thermostats require half temperatures to be broadly usable as the difference between putting it on 21 and 22 is not granular enough for most and 21.5 is required. This is not an issue with Fahrenheit.
THat's about all.
Youre right about how Fahrenheit was formed. But that doesnt change how its used today. Its not used to measure a brine solution. Its scale does align very well with human tolerances for temperature however.
Mate this post seems incredibly disingenuous.
You are just using vibes to justify the systems that are more familiar to you. Your temperature argument is literally vibes based, as what someone would find tolerable will vary greatly depending on what climate they are used to.
Your distance argument is insane too. We can all agree a foot is 12 inches? What the fuck is an inch my dude? Only other people already using your system would agree with you.
You also talk about ease of use and 12 having more fractions but forget the part you mentioned at the top of your post. Metric system easily uses smaller units when necessary. A third of a meter is a bit more than 33 centimeters and 3 millimeters. Measuring tools have that marked.
Btw aren’t messing tapes complicated to use in your system? I mean if you are using fractions for smaller than inch things.
Also, the claim that it’s more useful to be able to have many fractions of miles instead of it being a reasonable number of feet is quite dumb to me and you make no attempt to justify it.
Your arguments are just really weak. It’s as if I tried to argue in favor of metric by saying in my country a city block is 100 meters long and it’s easy to know if something it’s X Km away it’s just 10x that many blocks.
Btw see what I used up there? Abbreviations. Having a prefix that modifies a standard unit makes those a lot easier.
Also, you aren’t mention volume and weight units. Maybe cause you know yours are insane there.
As for volume I’ll just mention that having it tied to the units for distance makes it easier to visualize the volume of something. A liter is 1000 cm3 or cubic centimeters. So you can imagine a cube of sides 10 cm.
Metric units are just way more related to each other. A liter of water weights a kilogram. That’s cause it has a density of 1g/cm3. I have no idea what’s the density of water in American I don’t even know which units you’d use for it.
Great distances are impossible to visualize. Even in metric. It doesnt really matter how theyre defined only how easy it is to calculate them. And at least with miles you have more factors than with a kilometer.
Also, an inch is 1/12th of a foot. It doesnt make sense until you realize that a foot is divisible by 1,2,3,4 and 6. You cant break up 1 meter into thirds without using decimals.
Also, I didnt include volume in my post because i prefer metric for volume measurements.
Edit: IMO you shouldn't use weight to measure volume as either can change on a variety factors.
and what is the problem with that? do you not understand how decimals work? You keep harping on whole numbers like somehow dealing with fractions or decimals is too hard for you?
Decimals are fine. But when you are making estimates, which is my whole point here, decimals imply a level of precision that isnt there. When you say .5 meters theres an implication of precision there. When i say a foot and a half no one assumes i mean exactly 18 inches. I dont really know how else to explain that. Decimals imply precision even in situations where precision isnt expected or possible. And that is where the imperial system shines.
Mate stop a second and re read how insane what you wrote sounds.
The pro foot argument is that you can give a specific number of inches when diving by three.
But now you are claiming that the upside is that you can use fractions to imply you are giving a vague estimate and not being that precise… something you can do with literally any unit of measurement. Just say half a meter instead of .5
The difference is half a meter is .5 meters. Half a foot is 6 inches.
Half a meter is 50 centimeters… what are you on…?
Your arguments are not making sense…
50 is a big number my guy. Try to visualize 50 somethings with any degree of accuracy, it just doesnt work. At least not as well as only 6 somethings. The imperial system is designed to be easy to navigate with whole numbers and are attached to things that have easy reference points.
You keep sounding crazy. We are talking about units of measurement here. We don’t need to imagine 50 of anything. Do you imagine 12 inches when you think of a foot? And then visualize half of those going away when you talk about half a foot?
You are moving the goalposts all the time.
You are also forgetting that metric is base ten so groups of ten of anything are pretty easy use. They even have a name ten centimeters is a decimeter it’s just not often used … because it’s extremely easy to deal with 10x as many centimeters. If people had trouble “visualizing” that many centimeters then the decimeter would have become more popular.
why would you say "point five metres" but "half a foot"? if you were talking about 0.5 metres you would say "half a metre". I feel like you just have a hard time with numbers or something and are trying to convert that into some weird thing that metric system is hard to understand. Like keeping things in whole numbers when you divide is not a ratinale argument as to why one system is easier to understand than the other.
You learn what these measurements by growing up with them not by relating to them to other things. And a lot of these relations aren’t relevant anymore. Like an inch being three barley seeds or whatever. The idea of Fahrenheit being what’s tolerable to a person makes sense but I grew up in Canada and -25c(-13f) is what I find the point where outside starts to be intolerable. But when I know 0c is when water freezes I know that roads might start to be icy. And then +30c and -30c are the two extremes of zero. There’s no guessing or subjectivity. When someone asks for a litre of water and I don’t have a measuring cup I can weigh 1000g of water because it’s all instantly convertible without math or knowing arbitrary numbers. If you grow up with metric you instantly know what a meter is from seeing metre sticks and using it throughout school. And then without experiencing a kilometre I can visualize it because it’s 1000 metres. But with a mile you only understand what a mile is because you’ve experienced a mile. You can’t see a foot and then multiply to understand what a mile is because how are you going to remember how many feet are in a mile. How do you quickly convert 370feet into yards? Maybe for casual talking it’s easier and only because you speak English and imperial comes from English speaking places so in other languages it makes even less sense but for casual conversation in English that is the only place imperial is better.
You can visualize 1000 meter sticks?🤔 lets be honest, no one is visualizing large distances. What matters is your ability to calculate them easily. And yea its easier to calculate a kilometer than a mile. But a mile is 5280 feet, which has more factors that 1000. Meaning you can break it up into more equal whole numbers than a kilometer.
In all I do agree with you, what makes sense depends on where you come from. My argument is that metric is a precise scientific scale that can make sense to a lot of people and is easy to visualize. But imperial is a human scale designed to be easily understandable even if it lacks precision.
I can visualize a 1km. Because I can easily visualize 10m and I know how long that is to walk and then you do that 100 times. I can easily estimate that distance. Math is easier to work with in tens because that's how our whole modern math system is built. Base ten. If you forget how many yards are in a mile or how many feet are in a mile or how many inches are in foot there is no way to know other than to look it up. They are arbitrary numbers. It's great that you can divide them and get whole numbers but what if you can't remember them in the first place? I guess the only benefit you can come up with for the imperial system is that you get whole numbers when you divide. I bet most people find it easier to divide 1000 by half, quarters, and thirds in their head than 5280. Even if you get a decimal.
You cant visualize 1km. Sure you can make it make sense for you but you cant visualize 1km. Just like i cant visualize a mile. They are the defects "long distance unit. They only make sense because they are big. Big thing is big. Is a mile better than a km? No but a km isnt better than a mile either. Yes its easy to say that a km is 1000 meters. Yes its harder to say a mile is 5280 feet. But at the end of the day theyre both really long distances that you cant visualize.
Imagine youre a soldier in the heat of battle and youve been ordered to move your squad 300 yards east. Well a yard is 3 feet ypu can look down and visualize 3 feet because your foot, the namesake for the distance itself, is right there. You realize that 1 yard is about the length of one stride so you take 300 stride east. Now, yes, you can say a meter is about 1 stride as well, but what if you forget that(to use your silly argument)? How can you determine how far a meter is? Did you bring your meter stick?
You know that the U.S. military uses metric for distance right? But they use paces in military for distance on foot. They don't say meters or feet because in those situations precise measurements don't matter. But I guess you're right. In a WW1 style firefight I'd use my feet to measure my yards.
Yea, its a bad example but it still works.
It doesn't work because your reason for thinking imperial is more human is because you grew up with it so it's more intuitive for you to use and that it has names based on body parts so it seems more human. It's like if I said metric is better because a meter is about half a person right and you don't have to use fractions or remember random numbers to use metric and all the factors are in base ten which everyone uses for everything so it's more human. You're conflating more human with intuitive for you because you're used to it. A real human measuring system would be stuff like cubits where you literally use your forearm to measure.
Just because you can't visualize large distances doesn't mean no one can or that it's not possible.
Youre telling me you can visualize 1 km in front of you right now? Are you an eagle?
I don’t know what to tell you. I can visualize one point to another in my town that is about 1km away.
why do you keep saying that, ever watch a 100m track and field race? times that by 10 and you have a km, how is that hard to visualize?
i'm curious as to how or why you think this is relevant?
My point is the imperial system is designed to be broken apart and used in halves, quarters, eighths, etc. Without having to calculate anything, just break something in half, then in half again then again. Or into 3rds, then in half etc. Its excels when you need fast human scale estimation and flexibility.
but you can that with metric as well, you need to go to math class or something if you think you can't.
My point is the imperial system was designed for that purpose. Metric wasnt.
10 in half is 5. 10 in quarters is 2.5, 10 in thirds is 3.3, that is literally all you need to know for metric and estimating measurements. In imperial you have to know what a mile is. Ok cool you remember 5260 feet. Or was it 5280? I’m not sure but I need a third of a mile in feet. 5280/3 is um let me think for a sec. 5000/3 is 1666.66 + 200/3 is 66.66 + 80/3is 26.66 = 1760. Ok thank goodness I got a number without a decimal. Actually we need that in yards ok that’s going to be 1760/3. So I pull out my calculator because I can’t do that in my head again and I get 586.66 yards. Thank goodness I’m using imperial because 586.66 yards in a third mile is an easy number to remember.
As oppose to metric where I need a third of a kilometer. 333.3 metres. Ok but could you give it to me in centimetres no problem. 33,333.3 centimetres. I need half that back in km. Cool 0.166km. It’s way more intuitive to use on the fly in your head even if it has decimals.
no one actually estimates distances by converting miles into feet, then yards, then back again.
The point is that with imperial you stop at “a third of a mile” or “half a foot” and never do the math at all. the fraction is the estimate. Metric pushes you toward numeric subdivision (333.3 m, 0.166 km), which is fine mathematically but shifts you into calculation mode instead of spatial judgment.
So the advantage being discussed isn’t fewer decimals it’s that the imperial system lets you avoid numbers altogether when making rough estimates.
Ya but if that’s that the case you can just say a third of a km and not do any numbers either. Just like you can do a third of a mile.
But now youre just mixing metric with imperial. Fractions and thinking in parts of a whole are intrinsic to the imperial system. Metric is defining something in an absolute form.
If thats the advantage of imperial then it’s equal with metric. Except that metric can be both very accurate and rough estimations, easier to use if you know math fundamentals, can convert easily between volume, weight, distance, and energy. Plus it works in every language.
Everything you point out is insanely arbitrary and is based off what you grew up with. I have zero clue what 30, 50 and 70 fahrenheit feel like or represent. Conversely I know exactly what 10, 20, 30 celsius feels like and it makes perfect sense to talk in terms of censius for how hot and cold things are from 0 to 100. From -70 (I deel with frozen shit for work), to 190 (air fryer). It all makes sense to me. You cant blanket claim its better for humans when its all arbitrary and incomprehensible for someone who isnt used to the measurement.
As for your points. Measurements being divisible by base 12 vs base 10. We use base 12 for clocks and.... thats it. I can tell you 30% of 1cm, I can tell you 45% of 1m. I can tell you 72% of 1km. Can you tell me what 83% of a foot is in inches? I can tell you what 1/3 of of a metre is. Its 33.33cm. Zero thinking required. Further accuracy highly unnecessary unless the tolerances are super important and if it is, you can just keep going because again its in base 10. Its easy. Its a stretch to suggest its easier to work with inches through to feet then miles when the imperial system is fundamentally designed to be easy to work with from a math stand point. Everything else is just what you are bought up with in terms of preference and understanding. I have zero idea what an inch is, you have zero idea what a cm is.
Temperature. You arbitrarily chose 100 now as the range while just prior you stated the system not based on base 10 as superior. Surely you can see why anyone would find this argument weak. On a scale of 1 to 1000 everything in celsius and Fahrenheit make no sense. On a scale of 0-50 everything in Celsius makes sense and fahrenheit doesnt
Date: The most superior date is international standard year/month/day, makes the most sense from a sorting standpoint. But my counter point is, what is the date of the US independence? The fourth of July. The simple fact of the matter is that the day is the most important part of the date and is therefore first. It is the most volatile, the most precise, and the most relevant in day to day.
12 is used in degrees in a circle, months in a year, hours in a day. Its a highly composite number with 6 factors. Its a very easy number to break apart into other whole numbers.
Why would you need to know what 83% of a foot is? Like I said. If you need precision, metric is the way to go. Imperial is a human system and humans are imperfect beings. If you have to tell how long a branch is does it make more sense to say "its 3.183 meters" or "its about 12 and a half feet"? 3.183 meters probably makes sense to you, and thats fine. But it adds an assumption of precision to something that wasnt necessarily measured precisely. An inch is 1/12 of a foot. A centimeter is 1/100 of a meter. I understand both systems just fine. A foot being broken into 12 parts is easier to visualize and approximate than a meter being broken into 100 parts. At a glance can you tell me how far up a wall 83 cm would be without measuring? 83 cm is about 2 feet and 8.5 inches. Which is 2 and 2/3 feet. Whats easier to visualize in this example, 83 small segments, or 2 and 2 thirds?
The difference with temperature is you cant say 30 degrees is half as hot as 60 degrees. Because its arbitrary. What does it mean for something to be half as hot as something else? It doesnt make sense. As a scale staying within base 10 works better because it represents percentages. 30°F is roughly 30% of the average max temperature tolerance for humans.
Date: youre turning my date format argument into an america argument, which it is not. My argument was that having the day first in the date on a document can confuse a reader looking back at several documents. The day being a volatile number means that multiple documents written on separate but closely related days can have vastly different numbers. Have the month first lets the reader know these are all from a similar time. Helps with bookkeeping. Regardless, my preferred format is 18 DEC 2025. It eliminates any potential confusion and the capital letters on the middle stand out amongst the numbers making it very obvious when they document was made. To humor you with your point though.. the fourth of July is only one such example where america uses day before month. September 11th, december 25th, January 1st, May 4th etc. All popular days in the US expressed as I have written them. I dont know why the 4th of July is written uniquely from other US dates, but as an american "the 4th of july" reads more like the name of a holiday than a date. When refering to itas a date id still say July 4th.
The actual units are all arbitrary. The fact that you have to try so hard to bend the numbers to fit a human notion only shows how weak the utility is. For example I happen to know my foot is in fact 12 inches…it’s also a size 14 making my foot size 20% larger than average. Your use of the word roughly is doing a lot of work here..in reality the average foot is less than 10 inches… or 25cm which is also a nice even number. Both are equally arbitrary if you are insisting on using a human foot for measurement.
We can pick any random part of the body and assign numbers to it. Maybe that was useful to someone in the Middle Ages but not very helpful today. The simple truth is that imperial measurements feel more intuitive to you because that’s what you’re used to. If you adopted or were taught a different unit then it would feel just as intuitive
Having easy conversions is just simply far more useful. On a daily basis I find myself converting units far more often than I need to guesstimate a distance with my foot.
Temperature…again it’s just what you are used to and like the foot…it doesn’t even match up with real life. 100 degrees and 0 degrees f is completely arbitrary and useless for any sort of degree. Water is super useful because it is so abundant.
For dates…both are wrong the superior way is year month day for organizing computers or files.
Them being arbitrary is critical t9 my whole point. Its not a precise system, not by any means. To use imperial measurements with any form of precision is insane. You use imperial measurements as ballpark estimates. "Its about 3 and a half feet long" "2 and a quarter inches deep" etc.
This is literally why the metric system uses base 10. Because we have 10 fingers. But 10 as a base number is inferior as it only has 4 factors. The smallest number with more than 5 is 12 at 6 factors, a much better candidate imo.
Im sure youre aware of how big your feet are without having to look. You can look at the ground and visualize walking heel to toe a distance and estimate how many feet away it is. No its not accurate, but its close and thats all that matters with imperial measurements.
I disagree with year being first in date format. You can usually tell at a glance how many years old a document is based on wear. So putting year first is unnecessary. I do agree that neither mmddyy or ddmmyy are the ideal format. I prefer ddmmmyyyy or 18 DEC 2025. It eliminates any confusion.
If they are both arbitrary then why is the one that is easier to convert not the deciding factor?
You can ballpark measures with metric too. Like I said it just depends on what you’re used to. Personally I don’t measure distances with my feet….its too small of a unit to visual estimate. I use like my height or city blocks or football fields or something.
The base 12 argument doesn’t really hold much water because it’s only relevant to inches and feet and only for whole units. Once you start considering yards and miles it falls apart. And as soon as you are dealing with an actual measurement with decimals or percentages it’s a lot harder. If I measure something with a ruler and it is 15 feet 3 inches…the math for converting to yards or inches is a lot harder. For metric something that is 15 meters 20 cm is 1520 cm. Easy.
Also the inch is too big to be useful as the smallest base standard. Metric is infinitely scalable in both directions.
I understand the argument for base 12 systems, but it’s unnecessarily confusing when we use and learn base 10 for everything else. I guess it just really depends on whether you are encountering fractions or percentiles more often. But people aren’t very good at fractions. For example I will be the first to admit that putting my sockets in order of 1/4” 5/16” and 3/8” inch takes a lot more thinking effort than ordering my metric sockets.
Don’t even get me started on Volume, which is even more confusing and harder to remember.
Youre looking the imperial system from the perspective of the metric system. Youre trying to make the i.perial system make sense the same way the metric system does. They are fundamentally different. Units go into each other in metric, and yes they technically do for imperial as well, but they are each their own units used for their own purposes. You only convert them when its necessary. Some things are best measured in inches even though you could simplify to feet. TV screen size for example. I have a 75 inch tv. No one would say 6 feet 3 inch tv. Each unit in imperial has its own use case.
Fractions are annoying youre right. But they are quite intuitive when you think about it. 5/16s is pretty damn confusing to visualize at first. But you know a quarter of 16 is 4 and this is just a little more than that. So its a little more that a quarter which is easy to visualize without having to measure. You cant really say the same thing for 17 mm.
Lets look at two measurements from both systems and break down the thought process for visualizing the distance.
Metric: 3.36m is 3 meters, 3 centimeters and 6 millimeters. Pretty straight forward
Imperial: 8 feet and 10 inches. Thats it. The measurement already explains itself.
You could measure TVs in cm too.
You haven’t really given any compelling reason why, given the same starting point, I would choose imperial over metric. I know the history of why it exists and I’m not discounting the fact that for people guesstimating the size of fields or rows of wheat without a measuring system the foot would be convenient. But in the modern world, even for human scales, there just isn’t a good reason. It’s just less convenient in virtually every aspect.
Imperial being the “human feeling measurement” system is entirely just reverse justification for better understanding the imperial system because you grew up with it
Nobody who grew up with metric is struggling to visualise a metre because there is no natural comparison to a metre like a foot is roughly a human sized foot. Measurement systems “human element” is entirely driven by your own intimacy with it not what makes sense to a proverbial
There is no inherent advantage to a system you could teach someone who doesn’t understand either that imperial has some measurements that can be roughly translated to natural things (like a foot to a foot) because internal visualisation of metric isn’t hard if you actually know the metric system as anyone outside of America can tell you
It’s easy to find body points to measure in whatever system you like.
A meter is about my waist height, 1.5 is the bottom of my chin and 100mm / 10cm is about the width of a hand.
The only one that doesn’t work well for everyday life is temperature in Kelvin - while the steps are the same as Celsius, the it’s much less helpful saying it’s 270 Kelvin in the freezer and 453 Kelvin in the oven
A metre compares about to an adult human male leg as a foot does to an adult human male foot, and by that I mean within 85% average.
For reference, the average adult male U.S.A. foot is about 86% of a foot, the unit, in length, and then consider that most inhabitants there are not adult males so the average foot will be considerably shorter. The idea that the human foot maps well to the unit is a weird myth I will never understand.
Of all of the bad arguments in this post, the one governing dates is the worst. What day is it? The 17th. Of what month? November. Of what year? 2026. Smallest unit of calendrical time (day); larger unit (month); largest unit (year.) I moved to America and there will be a 6 at the front—this should mean it’s the 6th, it’s by far the most rational concept. No, it’s June? Oh and what day 06/03/26? In either case you are going to have potential confusion up until the 13th. Why not stick with day month year like the rest of the entire world? I mess it up every time and it has zero positive aspects.
And coming to bat for the mile, Jesus, how many people genuinely know how many yards are in a mile without checking? Be real with me. Do you know how many feet are in a mile? No because it’s stupid. If only powers of ten could come to our aid. 5 points to Hufflepuff for the exterior temperature; Fahrenheit is possibly better in this one arena of life. The rest is bullshit. Should we adopt stones from the UK as well? Max out the idiocy?
The day being first doesnt make sense because its a bad way of telling how long ago something way. The month being first makes more sense as its a less volatile number, but not the year which changes so infrequently that it would be unnecessary.
10 is bad because its only divisible by 1,2, and 5. 12 is divisible by 1,2,3,4, and 6. Which is why we use 360 degrees in a circle, 24 hours in a day, and 12 months per year.
We got the number system we use from the ancient Sumerians. They would count the segments on their four fingers which gave us a base 6/12 system. It makes a lot of sense for a lot of things in my opinion
Base 60 is good for time, no question. It was the one French revolutionary reform that went nowhere, decimal time. But things like the mile don’t have anything to do with that number system. Even granting it has a lot of factors, they don’t come into play as no one uses 1/32 of a mile under any circumstances. It is an unadulteratedly bad system for distance. And factors of ten are self-evidently superior; you just move the decimal point. “I can divide it by both three and four!” Yes, very nice, now imagine you can move the comma one place value to the left and you’re done.
Hmm
A pain indeed!
Let's go!!
???
Im saying that the ends of the date format are the easiest to see at a glance, so putting the day in the middle allows for the more important information to be easily readable
But you walk head first into the same problem you just solved as soon as you have dates covering more than a year!
I suppose, but its still easier to read than if day is first.
Hard disagree on the temperature take. 0F isn't the "lower limit of what's tolerable" unless you live somewhere super specific - that's like -18C which would literally kill you pretty quick without proper gear. Meanwhile 32F (0C) is actually useful info because that's when water freezes and you know roads might be icy
The whole "human scale" thing falls apart when you realize most of the world uses Celsius just fine and has zero issues knowing that 20C is room temp and 35C is hot
Ive repeated myself too many times in these comments. If you care to see my arguments yoy can read those. Im not commenting anymore.
This all seems post-rationalised based on your own experiences rather than on anything objective.
My foot is about that. My wife’s is a good few centimetres shorter.
You know what is even easier? Instead of saying 100cm, you can call it a metre. You can also divide it neatly into 100 different parts. Need to multiply a distance? Easy - and you can then turn it into kilometres simply.
Where I live it almost never gets below 32F. If it ever got to 0F, there would be widespread deaths and our infrastructure would shut down. Meanwhile it is often well over 100F for days. So fahrenheit has absolutely no relation to “human” senses.
I cannot understand this at all. Why would this make any more sense than just having the first (smallest) number change? I would suggest that YYYYMMDD is even better though, as it files nicely on a computer.
A meter is a step.
A liter is the volume of a foot.
0°C is when your snot freezes and 100C is when your blood boils.
See, metric is just as human.
1: that makes sense, im gonna use thsi from now on.
2: I prefer metrics for volumes tbh which is why I didnt include them in my post.
3: when has blood boiling ever been a human experience?
When you're an engineer that deals with units on a daily basis, precise or not, metric is much more fluid to use than imperial. I work with large structures so it's nice having round numbers to deal with, not weird fractionals in sixteenths.
Most people would disagree with you about a foot size. For an above-average man, a foot is a foot, but the same won't be said for the average woman.
The divisibility of feet into inches doesn't matter - dividing by ten is always going to be easier than dividing by 12 or 16. I'd rather divide 3.7m by 10cm increments than 3'-4" in 6" increments.
How often do you need single digit precision for temperature scales? Celsius and Fahrenheit only differ by a factor of roughly 2, so if you're okay with using half numbers for your climate controls, then readjusting to the scale of 0 through 35 of above-freezing temperature swings isn't much of a hassle
YYYY-MM-DD is the preferred sort for filesystems that most people in the country should be using. DD-MM-YYYY is just the flip of that. Again, not a big pivot when you're used to doing the latter
Metric is base 10 like all human counting, we have 10 fingers isn't that more human?
Fun fact, there are/have been multiple different cultures that use fingers to count to more than 10, usually by using different finger positions.
10 is just easier to learn than the others.
10 stuck because we have 10 fingers and thats easier to see from a distance. Ive always though 10 was such a weird number. You can have 10 objects packed together nicely. 9, or especially 12 would be a much nicer base number.
All human counting is not base-10.
I touched on 10 fingers/toes in my post. 10 doesnt work because its only divisible by 1,2, and 5. 12 is divisible by 1,2,3,4, and 6. Its the same reason we have 360 degrees in a circle and 24 (2x12) hours in a day.
hours in the day and 360 degrees are arbitrary, they could be larger without any problem. In fact degrees are separated into minutes and seconds. but human counting is in base 10 and thats why most Humans use it, using the metric system aligns measuring things with the human method of counting.
Base 10 is bad too but thats a whole separate argument
but you cant deny its human, you use it yourself.
Yea it works, but theres a better way
but your whole argument was that it was for humans so it was better, if you agree that base 10 is for humans surely metric should be the same since it is also.
No my argument is that imperial is better because its easier to use for estimations.
You are almost correct. For humans the system of measurement the are most familiar with works better than other systems.
For people who grew up with metric, having to break things into 2 units (eg 8 feet, 10 inches) seems needlessly complex, and picking 32 degrees as the freezing point of water is plain crazy. Likewise people who grew up with imperial are a bit phased to hear a normal male height is 1.8m.
All of your justifications fall into this gut feel category, and they generally don't resonate to metric native people. Or to put it another way, your points indicate that the US system feel better for people who are used to it, not for humans in general.
I agree. This is 100% vibes. And thats my point, humans arent precise creatures we dont think that way.
The part you are missing is that which way the vibes lean varies by what you are used to.
As a person who grew up with the metric system, I can say that personally none of your listed benefits hit home for me. I could go through and write a similar post about why metric is better for everyday use, but I doubt many would seem real to you. And this is because the vibes are all based on familiarity.
Or to put it in terms similar to your CMV; for humans the system of measurement they are familiar with is better for everyday use than another unfamiliar system.
Yea, youre 100% right. I just think imperial measurements are easier for a human to break apart and rationalize than metrics. But of course it because its how I was raised. Idk
I can tell that OP is not an engineer or scientist
(https://www.reddit.com/r/AskEngineers/s/oseoP8yIh)
Edit: you wanna crash a probe into Mars? Because that's how you crash a probe into Mars.
If you read my post you'd see that I agreed that metrics is better for measurements that require perfection like anything scientific.
So any measurement that a human might need?
You dont need precision to know how hot it is outside right now. You dont need precision to know how far away you are from your TV. Unless you do, then metrics works better. But for humans using a human scale that aligns closer to human needs, imperial works better.
People get used to any measurement system they use, yeah? So it comes down to the slope rather than the values. For example, can you tell the difference between 70F and 71F? No. So the difference of 1F is meaningless to people. But 1C ~= 2F which is starting to become meaningful because now we're talking the difference between 70F and 72F.
And metric is better because you can use whatever prefix makes sense in context of whatever you are doing and anyone can make some sense of it. Are you a home baker? Weight out 250g of flour. And you know, with some basic maths, how much 1kg is (kilo=1000). And once you have a grasp on 1kg if someone tells you to go grab 250kg of flour you can instantly understand that you can't lift that. But in imperial it would be weigh out 1/2 pound flour and go grab 40 stone (whatever the fuck that is) of flour. No connection. Useless unless you grew up in the system. With metric you just need to understand the prefixes and you're good.
Next, we need to realise that having different measurement systems results in idiotic situations like multi-million dollar interplantary probes crashing into planets because of unit conversion. So it becomes very important that we align on one measurement system and that that system needs to be flexible for use in all situations - whether you are making a drug that has an effective dose of 100ng or whether you are trying to determine if you can lift a 1kg bag of flour or whether you are trying to slow down a 600kg interplantary probe.
Yea. Youre proving my point that its a scientific scale, not a human scale.
Only if you ignore everything I said.
My argument here is that the metric system is a precise system that works to ensure everything is mathematically sound and is easy to calculate.
The imperial system is an easy system for a human to use to approximate measurements based on how things feel in a current situation. Its a human system. Humans weren't meant to guide space probes. Do I think the imperial system should be used for that regardless? No, not at all. I think the imperial system is a great system for humans to use for human purposes. Like telling how hot it is outside. Or how long a branch is, or how heavy a rock is. Basic, everyday stuff that doesnt require precision.
If your measurements require precision, use the metric system, its the better more obvious choice. If not, use imperial.
Its just easier to break imperial measurements down to smaller bits than metric. Yes, despite the base 10 aspect of the metric system. I believe for the most part its easier with the imperial system to use smaller measurements. I will say that obviously the imperial system is imperfect and changes should be made, like 1 pound should be 12 ounces instead of 16 for example.
Your first point: you can say the exact same thing for imperial. "Use some basic math to convert to the higher weight" also, no one uses stones as a measurement.
Second point: I agree. But again IMPERIAL SHOULD NOT BE USED FOR PRECISE MEASUREMENTS how many times do I have to repeat myself on this? In scientific measurements metric should be used. A scenario where someone uses the wrong measurement system is not the fault of the measurement system, that person was going to make a mistake somewhere regardless, just happened to be the wrong units.
The consistent x10 conversions are better than anything you e mentioned. If you are actually doing something with the measurements, you want that conversion factor
12 is a better number to use than 10. It has twice the number of factors
10 was not the key part there. Consistent was the key part. A consistent conversation scheme across is a huge benefit. Way better than being divisible by 3 in a base 10 system
I dont like base 10 in general. Youre right that its nice because it plays into base 10 really well, but base 10 is just ass.
Regardless of which system we choose, we are keeping base 10, so we should keep the one that plays nice with it
Whats a 3rd of a kilogram?
.33 kg
.3333333333333333333333...... you cant do it and make it a rational number. Sure you can find that for everything even in imperial measurements but dividing into 3rds is a very common practice.
lol, 0.33…. Is a rational number man.
Also infinite precision is irrelevant to a measurement system
Hey I didnt claim to be smart. You know what I mean though.
Meter is a step. Everyone knows what step of theirs is a meter. Foot is somebody's foot, most likely not yours. So metric length is much more personal and connected to each individual human by your own logic.
Fahrenheit doesn't have any universal number connected to humans. Only personal vibes and feelings that differ drastically even in only country that uses it. Celsius has freezing point which changes everybody's feeling from cold to freezing due to reaction of water in the air. So it is more human and personal unlike Fahrenheit that is just connected to two random wrongly gagged temperatures.
Last argument is just pure nonsense. You most likely know what year or months is now. Also when you are wondering about something that happened long ago you once again get info in blocks in order. Putting things randomly out of order only creates mess and adds unnecessary complications. And with documents argument, by placing dates as either yyyy/mm/dd or dd/mm/yyyy you easily go through two blocks of i for that are side by side and zoom you onto month of specific year that you want and then you just go through days, instead of splitting that info for no reason.
You are just speaking from the point of habit and trying to justify why using cleaver is better than using hammer to hammer nails because that's how you were taught since childhood.
You are simply accustomed to fahrenheit. It feels familiar, so the boundaries you define for 0 and 100 seems intuitive to you.
0°F is -18°C. I have never experienced that in my lifetime (I live in the England), but I have experienced 0°C. It's a meaningful temperature with visible changes outside because of the frozen water. 0°C is already far too cold for me; I hate it. Does this count as a temperature so low that it's not "tolerable" to me? In which case, it fits better than 0°F. The fact that the "tolerable" quality of 0°F varies so much from person to person makes it a useless marker.
100°F, as well. You try to suggest there's something more objective than just "it's a hot temperature" but there's really nothing more to it than that. Sure, the termperature at which water boils is not useful for weather, but the fact that fahrenheit makes 100 technically achieveable doesn't suggest any actual benefit to me other than "100 is a nice round number". Well, so is 10 and so is 1000 but those aren't special and that doesn't matter either.
Yeah and grass is also often green
What are you trying to say here? Lol
They're no better or no worse. Just arbitrary systems. The best one is the one you're used to. It's why QWERTY is still number one.
No, not really. And the fact that you need these long-winded explanations to justify the system may be an indication that it isn't as intuitive as you think.
So this just seems like a last minute correction of a flawed system. Why not just use Y/M/D?
Tbh, my preferred date format is ddmmmyyyy
But your thread title says the USA version of M/d/y is better. Has your view changed?
Mmddyy is better than ddmmyy. But I prefer ddmmmyyyy because its easy for anyone to understand regardless of preference.
Doesn't that make ddmmyyyy better by default if anyone can understand it regardless of preference?
Ddmmmyyyy as in 18 DEC 2025.
A foot is bigger than an average foot. This is especially true if you're a woman, at which point it is completely arbitrary and has no connection to your body anymore. An inch is even more arbitrary.
A meter is a big step for any purpose that does not require precision, which also allows you to easily do rough measurements by just walking in big steps.
Yeah, and they're all in calculator range anyways. We have those in our pockets now. All the time. Meanwhile 10 is the base of our numeric system, and allows trivial conversion over orders of magnitude.
This is literally just what you're used to. There is no other factor to this. The beginning and end of "what it feels to a human" according to you are 100% arbitrary. At least celsius tells you when you need to be concerned about slipping on ice.
Let us not adjust everything for someone not smart enough to keep track of dates on documents. If you're concerned about sorting, we should switch to ISO standard, which goes year-month-date, at least that has some utility in file sorting. Beyond that, putting things in order is perfectly sensible.
I feel like you’re just making up reasons that the Imperial system is better.
Celsius is a far more ‘human’ scale as most humans only care about two temperatures: the temperature water boils and the temperature water freezes. You care about water boiling for cooking stuff, freezing for weather stuff. Its much easier to remember 0 and 100 then it is 32 and 212. Additionally, as somebody from the Northern US there is a drastic difference between a -4 degrees F with and without wind chill. The temperature is more of a risk factor, but the wind chill is also an equally important risk factor.
Humans recognize everything as relative. If you know a scale, regardless of what markers were used as a baseline, it will be equally useful to you.
What you said is only relateable for people who grew up with the imperial system.
Your argument is essentially like "English is the best langauge for humans. When I speak Spanish I always have to translate in my head from English. With English I can just naturally speak."
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