https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/europes-2035-petrol-and-diesel-car-ban-axed-report
Interesting news that Europes 2035 ICE ban might actually be scrapped, and a much stricter emission standard implemented to drastically reduce tailpipe emissions.
I’m not surprised at all, it was an ambitious target, and an outright ban didn’t seem appropriate given not everyone will have easy access to charging.
I hope this might see some ICE sports cars survive beyond 2035, I’m happy to have a BEV for daily commute, but I struggle to get excited about a BEV sports car.
I don't think this will help ICE sports car survive given you need a 90 percent emissions reduction.
But I agree with the decision, EV adoption is just too low to ban gas cars. There's also many poorer EU countries where few can afford EVs or have good charging infrastructure
It's 90 percent across the whole fleet, so sports cars are safe
I expect further reduction of this percentage to save diesels for business users who do 800km in a day
He or she talks about affordable fun cars. There are many options gone form Europe because of upcoming Euro 7. In Europe, you can't buy CTR, 86/BRZ twin, and ZR33, and many local European automakers can't make hot hatches with engine.
they are going to be gone anyways because the 10% fleet emissions they have left will be used up by high priced SUVs and sports cars.
If anyone here thinks they will dedicate their last bit of emissions to affordable fun cars they are delusional.
The government has decided you don’t need a fun car.
You can still buy that.
will be discontinued soon in the EU
I guess that someone like toyota con easily meet the targets and keep seeling gr86s, supras and gr gts. They sell ton of phev and hev cars, they just need to step up their bev game
The German automakers are en route too, bmw basically offers their whole lineup as evs
The GR86 was only sold in incredibly limited numbers here in Britain because of it. The whole allocation sold out in about a day
Gr86/Brz can't be sold in the EU because the windshield is too low to have the mandatory adas Sensors
You sure? i thought it was for emissions
We have boxsters, cayman, z4s, R8s, 911s, Raris but the GR86 is too low?
https://www.motor1.com/news/707700/toyota-gr86-subaru-brz-dead-europe/
From that article I still don't get why the Miata and A110 are complaint and the GR86 is not
A110 isn't compliant, it got special extension of old rules for low volume cars. The same for 718 (hence they were only offering RS models for last year). Not sure why Toyota didn't try to get exemption for GR86, maybe they've decided there is no point in selling very low volume of such cheap car. Not sure about Miata either.
Completely unrelated to emissions.
Toyota still sells the inline* 6 Supra here.
The RAM 1500 as well with the over five litres Hemi, lol.
You mean the straight 6 Supra using BMW's B58 engine?
Yes ?
You said v6. The supra has a straight 6. Which is why people are down voting im assuming
Oh yeah, I forgot that it’s an inline 🤦
Actually I don’t think I’ve ever thought it a v shaped engine but I was probably thinking about the different v8 engines available on the market while typing the reply, lol.
My bad.
It's not like they have been popular car ever since they were introduced. These cars are more for Americans.
well, VERY expensive sports cars sold in tiny numbers are an option.
nothing that would matter for the average person and honestly something we should not allow just to let rich people keep polluting more.
It shows the weakness of the European Commission, there's a signal that the next target might be negotiable too if industry can't/doesn't want to comply.
It's more that they set an impossible target. Manufacturers have spooled up production of EVs at a pace beyond demand, and at great personal cost.
To the gulag with all of them
Good thing that whether or not we can afford it is mostly the basis for whether or not pollution gets us
Sadly Scotland backtracked on wood / peat burning ban to appease their theocrat deputy leader from the western isles.....who whipped up sone scare story about tens of thousands at risk of freezing to death....a line used by the solid fuel and wood burning stove lobbies, along with false claims of how green and eco friendly wood burning is. Like big tobacco's denial of the health risks of tobacco smoking, big wood dismisses air pollution and health risks from solid fuel burning as "nonsense", "scaremongering by extremists", "crucial to our culture and traditional way of life" "a very slight smell on start up which soon dissipates" "justified to support energy independence"....
Worse the ban on new oil and gas fuelled boilers was left in place, so cleaner sources of heat are banned but the 2 dirtiest are still permitted
result my small street where every house was built without a chimney and with mains electricity and mains gas supplied boilers now has horrific air pollution - PM2.5 levels go berserk with the windows open, due to 4 people installing wood stoves, none of them badly off,
worse still one of them burns pallets (delivered by the lorryload no less) and all manner of other crap.
Double reverse Uno?
Bring back defeat devices
It still sounds like they would have to mostly lean on EVs or plug in hybrids to make up the 90% reduction in emissions. I think this would allow some ICE cars to continue on, but a 90% instead of 100% emission reduction is still a pretty tough requirement to meet.
That's an absolute necessity if we want to have a chance at beating climate change in the EU. I would love to continue driving V8s but that's just not realistic imo.
I disagree.
I'm 100% for protecting the environment, but I don't see how arbitrary regulations are supposed to solve this issue.
Quite the contrary: your average 6-8-cylinder turbo or mild-hybrid sports/GT car will often have less negative environmental impact than oversized, high-performance SUVs. And there's nothing stopping you from running an ICE car on sustainable e-fuels. Not an option for the average commuter, but definitely feasible for enthusiasts. Most of these regulations (US/EU) are terrible at doing their job. Not only are there absurd exemptions that benefit larger cars, but the data they rely on is often completely nonsensical (just look at official hybrid fuel consumption).
I would prefer governments to focus on measures that actually lead to sustainable transport: building more EV charging stations, expanding cheap, fast, and reliable public transit, and planning dense, livable cities instead of endless sprawl. Those things will do far more to help the environment than forcing a tiny minority of car enthusiasts to replace their high-performance V8 sports cars with bland crossovers.
Of course there is. Have you seen the price of E-Fuels?
Why not both?
Any EV SUV will have a lot less impact per km than any sports car.
I live in Southern California, and the price of 100% renewable, organic based diesel (R99) is identical to regular diesel no. 2. My engine loves it, too.
If you can justify and afford the cost of an 80k+ impractical two-door coupe, you can also afford to pay for e-fuels. And it's not as if most car enthusiasts put thousands of kilometers on their brand-new Corvette each month. Expensive fuel really shouldn't be an issue.
Because government car regulation is clearly not working?
Emissions reductions per car have been stagnant for years, and U.S. manufacturers are basically competing to see who can build the biggest "Pedestrian Crusher 9000" pickup at this point.
People mostly buy large, heavy ICE SUVs and crossovers — often with plug-in hybrid systems that they barely use.
Yeah fair point. The emissions of the few sports cars probably won't be huge. But I fear car manufacturers will do everything possible to brand a SUV as a sports car somehow and avoid EV regulations.
I really don't give a fuck about US car brands as I live in Germany. The only US brand with a decent market share here is Ford Europe.
Maybe in the US but not here in the EU. People still buy a lot of hatchbacks and station wagons although SUVs and crossovers are getting more popular as well. The hybrid problem is definitely real and they should't get the same tax benefits as EVs for exactly the reason you mentioned.
My hope is given that 90% is a fleet target, it is possible to have a manufacturer sell a lot of BEV and PHEV for their more mundane cars, so they can keep ICE performance cars alive.
I think it means that any performance car will have to be hybridized in some way to meet those standards which is already what we are seeing more of now.
From what I read, if you sell 9 EVs, you can sell 1 ICE car
for every 9 EVs you can sell one extremely efficient ICE which also has to meet the emissions standards of the time which would probably be Euro 8 or 9 at that point.
Manufacturers are already not meeting Euro 7 with most of their engines because we are at the physical limit of the technology.
Euro 7 standard focus more on the pollution from brakes and tires rather than the engine. The g/co2 levels are the same as euro 6d-temp
The big problem with future Euro standards is that they will make brake pads and tires more expensive
Euro 7 is not focused on brakes and tires, these two come additionally to the engine emission limits which also need to improve.
the biggest change is the reduction of NOx emissions by 25% which will basically eliminate the majority of diesel engines as they cant get their NOx emissions under control.
The big change with EU is the requirement for Lambda=1 across the entire operating range. No more running rich at higher load.
You are likely right. Still, I'll take a hybrid over BEV for sports cars.
In today’s Europe, people are noticeably poorer than ten years ago, and many young adults struggle even to imagine getting a stable, decent job. At the same time, a new kind of eco-techno authoritarianism is growing. It is pushed by a small group of wealthy city dwellers who are increasingly disconnected from everyday life. For them, talking about saving the planet has become more of a fashionable hobby than a practical plan.
In this climate, these same groups support rules that end up excluding poorer people, for example by making affordable cars harder to own or by limiting access to protected city centres. These measures are presented as environmental progress, but in practice they mostly make life harder for those who are already struggling.
Normal people are getting extremely tired of these city dwellers impacting the lives of everyone, in a few years their plans are going to backfire spectacularly (as you can see by the fact that they are already discussing of removing this ice engine ban, unthinkable just a few years ago)
I worry that these stupid policies and rules are driving ordinary people toward extremes, as they struggle under such unreasonable restrictions that only favors a tiny wealthy minority
People outside of cities will enjoy a huge supply of dirt cheap used ICE cars for years to come.
I'm totally against the EU ICE ban, but I have to call out some nonsense.
First of all, EVs have become a lot more affordable in recent years. You can walk into a dealership right now and buy a four-door economy car for around 20k €/$. With government incentives and the money saved on fuel and maintenance, it's not more expensive than buying an equivalent ICE car. And even in higher price categories, EVs are very competitive. You're going to have a hard time finding a similarly priced and performing ICE car to a Tesla Model 3 Performance.
No one is "banning" poor people from driving their cars into city centers because they hate them or something. It's just that mass motorization, SUVs, and urbanization have immense negative effects on city dwellers AND on people who commute by car.
The US is probably the country that tried hardest to accommodate cars. The result? Commuters stuck in traffic for hours each day and unlivable, expensive, inefficient urban wastelands full of smoke, concrete, parking lots, and rising numbers of pedestrian casualties.
The most "anti-car" cities (e.g., Amsterdam) are actually the best for car drivers, because the people who drive genuinely want to drive, and everyone else can rely on efficient, fast, and affordable public transit.
Complete political hubris it was. Didnt listen to the industry it depended on. Didn’t listen to its own voters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xcQIoh3FQQ
lol. This was all so idiotic
There are literally billions of ICE cars available if anyone wants to keep them alive. I mean, enthusiasts say they like the way ICE cars perform, so buy one and learn how to fix it.
Fueling stations will be hard to find and fuel will be quite a bit pricier, ICE is on its way out. I might keep a Mercedes W123 Diesel around - a lovely engine that will run on slightly enhanced vegetable oil.
There are so many byproducts from refining oil that gasoline will always be around.
If gas demand is going down, gas will get cheaper, not more expensive.
We are a very long away from fuel being hard to find. Like, decades.
I struggle to get excited about modern ICE cars, which are typically some combo of auto-only, software heavy, literally heavy, complex, expensive, numb, and noise enhanced. OK, Miatas and FRSBRZ86es are still cool but still, I don't see keeping ICE around as a victory for "pure ICE experience" type enthusiasts, regardless of how I feel about the practicality of the ban. Gotta buy used to really get that.
As others have said, this change likely will not save affordable ICE sports cars in the EU either, that ship has sailed for a variety of social/economic reasons anyway. We might see affordable EV sports cars someday though, which I think would be pretty sweet, I really want my EV Miata-like already. This is still a bit of a hot take for the sub, but I do not think vehicles require an engine to be fun at all, fun in a car like that is pulling G's and changing directions with the roof down on a nice day.
I see this as a victory for the... less well off EU countries that can't easily make the transition, and the EU auto industry which is also struggling with electrification. At the same time, I think it's kind of sad that our advanced, organized societies are struggling so much with burning less stuff for power, the reasons to quit doing that just keep stacking up. Eh, we're slowly making progress I guess.
Insane if true, but not overly shocked. There was trouble brewing if they stayed on this path, and as it is, I think some german marques might be in trouble now and end up being sold off.
The euro emissions targets and "taxes" now are non-sensical and restrictive enough without adding more layers to it.
Toyota have been working this angle, this will be music for Japanese brands.
i recommend actually looking at actual sales numbers in europe for 2025.
https://www.acea.auto/files/Press_release_car_registrations_October_2025.pdf
VW,BMW, Renault are up in sales big time.
Mercedes more or less flat
Toyota, Stellantis, Hyundai/Kia, Ford, Nissan all less sales than 2024.
Tesla, Volvo, Mazda, Suzuki, Mitsubishi big drops in sales
Subaru isn't even on the list anymore this year because sales are so low.
In the euro market the companies under big pressure from the chinese are the non-european niche brands and Stellantis.
I give Mitsubishi and Subaru perhaps 5 years in the euro market.
That sounds like German would follow Britain fate.
I think it’s going to be the same fate everywhere. Either the countries back manufacturing or it’ll go to one place.
I cannot process how tf a group of people can have a decision that they literally dont believe it can be done in such time.
It was obvious from the beginning. Some brands even claimed "we will not produce ICE cars until 2030!!" and now they are all stepped back.
It will take more than one decade to implement fully EV vehicle production. World and technology just not ready for it yet. EVs are too expensive and people are too poor.
The price of EV's is steadily dropping, though. There are several options in the mid $30k's in the US, and the new Nissan Leaf will be very affordable. Since this article is about the EU, there are several EV's you can buy for under £20k.
And that doesn't even take the massive depreciation into account. You can get into an EV extremely cheap if you buy used. ICE is still the better option for someone on an extreme budget (like someone who needs a $4k car right now or they'll lose their job), but otherwise EV's are very affordable.
The bigger issue IMO is that lots of people don't have access to home charging, including almost everyone who lives in apartments.
Thats definilty right. In the future it will get better for sure.
This is actually "one" of the biggest issues. Others are that, today any cheap ICE car would easily go like 500Km+ for highway and filling the tank would only take 10 minutes.
Those cheap EVs you mentioned are only going like ~300Km in city. For highway, they are really not favorable. And you have to keep that in mind, you only use these vehicles between %20-100 and if cold weather gets into the equation, it becomes really really unappealing to use it if you only have one car.
When the day we have better charging infrastructure, LFP batteries can last 400km+ at highway speeds, fast charges that can fill at least half of the battery in 5 minute and get all this spec cheap, then there will be no reason to buy any ICE car anymore.
Oh yeah, EV's are still definitely worse than ICE vehicles for road trips. I'm a huge advocate for EV's, but they're just not there yet for anyone who regularly does long trips.
It depends. 300 KM is more than the vast majority of people will drive in a day with very rare exceptions. Also, you're generally supposed to operate an EV from around 10-80% under normal circumstances. Winter doesn't degrade range that much. But regardless it's a moot point for anyone who never drives more than about 60 miles in a day and has access to at-home charging; pretty much any EV on the market will be fine for those use cases.
Also, in case you didn't know, some EV's actually get better economy on the highway than in the city. City driving is great if your EV is really light, but all the stopping and starting is really inefficient for any vehicle, and it's even worse if you're driving a heavy car. Plus all of the non-drivetrain losses (like HVAC) are much higher per mile the slower you go for obvious reasons. I drive an i4 and I get much better economy on the highway than I do in the city.
Agreed! I don't know if we'll be there in twenty years, though. For the foreseeable future, EV's only really make sense if you can charge at home or work IMO.
Home charging definitely helps, and the highly suburbanized US can easily implement it, but public charging is vital in urban neighborhoods. Urban US charging stations are highly congested at peak travel times. We definitely need more.
Oh yeah, I didn't mean to downplay the importance of ubiquitous public chargers. I agree with you 100%!
Good. The ICE ban would've killed our automitive industry and handed it to China on a platter
The auto industry is turning to EVs, and China completely dominates the EV market, so...
Well yes, but completely banning ice cars would guarantee giving our industry to China. Whereas not doing so, and focusing instead on heavy emission reduction, would at least give us a chance of survival.
The UK may axe this aswell
One small step in the right direction. After all, if EVs are good enough, I don't think their competition should be banned.
I mean they shouldn’t have ban it in the first place I do like EVs but banning new petrol and diesel cars is a bit ridiculous
And there it is; at this point it's undeniable that the EU will destroy the enthusiast sector - no matter what.
This is, and always has been, their true aim.
Europe finally imposing some restraints on the EU power over the continent.
And all it took was an entire industry and millions of jobs at risk.
What a surprise
Let's be honest, regardless of the ban europe is going to easily surpass this target
October europe
20% growth would put plugins at
2026 38%
2027 46%
2028 55%
Now we start and see the scale of economics unwind for pure petrol and diesel cars. No one investing R&d for new models, petrol stations are losing customers and closing, which driving up price.
Edit: pure petrol and diesel share.
That's why IMHO the ban isn't necessary
For commuters, EVs are just superior. Basically no maintenance, less pollution in city centers, smooth power delivery and no noise
They check all the boxes for the perfect daily for 99% of people
Eventually, the would have become the default choice even without the ban
The ban isn't for customers but for companies imo so they can focus on EVs instead of building ICE and EV. The Audi CEO explained this in detail a few weeks ago although in German.
I don't know why people are so protective about ICE Sports Cars, because the way these car are driven is the real world an EV platform makes far more sense...
I have a lot of thoughts on this, but overall, it feels pretty funny. I think the proposed ban was 2025 when I moved here to Sweden. At the time, I laughed about that, because that allowed around 10 years to essentially "invent" an entire infrastructure, in a place not exactly known for doing anything (like this) quickly. I can only imagine that other places in the EU had similar challenges.
I mean, at that time, you would struggle to find one place to charge a car that did not say "Tesla" on it and even those were rare. Nearly the only people pushing the idea of EVs were people who had their own stand-alone homes with their own chargers, and could not seem to even grasp the very idea that people in apartments without a parking spot might see this as a problem (very Swedish thinking, really).
Then, perhaps 5ish years ago, maybe more, the last time they pushed the "ban" a bit further or perhaps it was France that made the announcement at the time, there were all sorts of tax incentives to buy an EV - the idea was really being pushed. At the same time, I feel like it was somewhat commonly understood that if, hypothetically, everyone went out one day and bought an EV, there was no way the current slightly better infrastructure could support it. There would be major problems from electric supply to whatever to do with petrol stations and the tax revenue they generated being lost, etc.
Fast forward to now, the apartment complex I live in has finally made the move to install car chargers, as have a lot of other places, but the idea of the ban actually happening this year still feels funny - I cannot speak for other places in EU but here anyway, we are so not even close to being ready for this - while of course progress has definitely been made. Closer, but not nearly there yet.
I remember a few friends talking like we would have all electric self-driving cars here by now. It seemed so silly back then, and even today, there's just no way. The first thing I thought of back then was wondering how a self-driving car might do on a snow-covered motorway with invisible edges and no mobil data service. I drove a small EV briefly that was nearly immobilised by having all the cameras blocked by ice (this is somewhat normal but this car had cameras instead of mirrors). That problem still has not been solved. I got a chance to drive a Volvo EX90 for a day last year and it was a wonderful car, but it had no idea what to do with the roads when they were only slightly messed up. Perhaps a bad example, but..
Meanwhile, I think it is a bit wild that, if one has the means to do so, one can go out and buy themselves a 1000hp petrol-powered hot rod, brand new, and drive that around. What are we even doing.
hybrid is the future not ev
Dumb and short sighted decision. The daily drivers that most people drive do not need to be gas or diesel powered (I say this as a diesel car owner). EVs are fine in most use cases and kicking the can down the road is not only worse for the environment which slows down EV adoption and investment while getting nothing in return
It doesn't matter if consumers prefer EVs in the long term
EV techs are close to mature enough to compete in the free market
New battery technologies are being discovered and implemented everyday. What are you even talking about?
Did I stutter?
"New battery technologies" are just incremental improvement on one aspect of EV, just like how combustion engine technology development incrementally improves ICE. The form factor is not going to radically change. It's not a leap like from ICE --> EV
EV tech has mature enough that the industry are just incrementally improving every components in the form factor going forward
They’re doing this in an attempt to rescue the failing European auto industry. It’s not because EV adoption is too low or because people can’t afford EVs. If you can’t afford a new EV, you can’t afford a new car full stop.
This decision is incredibly disappointing, especially given that the EU started this whole movement and usually play the role of the good guys.
Solution for lowering emissions already exists for years
It's called LPG and i read somewhere that emissions are 80% lower with LPG than with standard gasoline but not sure if that's true 🤔
And of course governments won't support LPG installations into cars because LPG is like 40% cheaper than gasoline
In my country they even tax you more during registration of the car with LPG which makes no sense 🤷♀️
nope thats not true when it comes to CO2.
with LPG CO2 emissions are basically the same, NOX emissions are WAY up and particle emissions are lower.
Overall its just a different kind of shit but its still shit.
LPG is being advertised as cleaner fuel
Also in my country cars with LPG installed don't have emissions test during registration
well its cleaner than Diesel but then again Diesel isnt clean at all.
Even Hydrogen combustion has major emission problems, the only thing that doesnt have is CO2 emissions.
In Italy LPG cars have always been widespread, and in places where older cars can't enter because of emissions they tend to consider LPG cars as more environmentally friendly and let you enter (for example, if your euro 2 car has LPG it gets considered an euro 3 by the authorities). Still, an LPG car has various drawbacks (self refueling of LPG is not allowed, so you can refuel only during the day, and LPG cars usually have some restrictions in underground parkings/long tunnels), also after the war in Ukraine the price of natural gas has been going up, so LPG is not as popular as it once was
you are making confusion between LPG which is a by product from refining and natural gas which is CNG or LNG
Never heard of those restrictions and they don't exist in my country Croatia
Except for self refueling
EV’s are not the answer and anyone who says they are is misinformed. Power grids cannot support it, hybrids are the answer.
We need to promote and support Porsche’s synthetic gas research IMO, it is much better to find a way to keep these cars on the road cleanly rather than make ICE obsolete.
Synthetic fuels are just going to be for the rich. It's 5x less efficient than an EV (even if we're talking about a very efficient ICE car e.g. 4l of Diesel). Projected Deployment of renewables doesn't come close to the amount of energy needed.
The electricity grid is perfectly capable of handling EV adoption considering the average person in the EU drives about 35km per day(12,545 per year in Germany). Meaning 7kWh per day, this can be easily charged over night at off-peak hours and you don't need to charge at the max speed the car is capable off (intelligent load management). Norway has 95% new EV sales (50% total cars on the road) as well as a lot of PHEVs and the grid is fine.
The entirety of Norway has the same population as 2 or 3 medium-sized European cities put together, no shit its grid can support it.
Or that they actually invested in their grid, then look at China. It has the population of 10 large European countries.