When buffy kills qwendlyn post isn't that against the rules cause she's human I know the glove did most of the work but buffy cut off her arm and according to Giles slayers can't kill humans and has buffy broke this rule anymore times.
I dont think its a rule and when we see buffy do it its justified- shes protecting people.
I think the speech Giles gives in season 5 about how she would let Ben live and view him as innocent is key here. It's not she would never kill a person but rather she would never just kill someone who poses no active threat. Which is also consistent with how she treats spike in season 5.
He has no soul but because he's not an active threat she doesnt slay him
I would chalk that up to bad writing. It also is against what Giles said in the gift early on. If killing dawn might be justified then killing Ben is clearly a no brainer. The speech about heroism is joss overreaching about nothing. Killing Ben has nothing to do with heroism it's just a moral quandary whoever does it.
The point about the "hero" line is that it isn't always a moral quandary. Buffy is a Hero and bound by a moral code to do Good. Giles is a pragmatist who is willing to get his hands dirty to do what is necessary. Buffy can't kill Ben because a Hero doesn't do things like that, Giles feels no such conflict and does what needed to be done.
Killing Ben was an execution, not self-defense. It's actually unclear if Glory was even an issue after the time for the ritual ended. The story implies that once the time passed, her will would be broken and she'd fade to nothing.
I don't see that as connected period and glory just reverting is a big plot hole. The key is not glory and the glory is not tied to the key. So dealing with the key and glory are two separate issues. It makes more sense to let glory live into season 6 and deal with the problem carefully but clearly joss wanted to move on so kill Ben and just end it.
You can stop this. You can save all their lives... by ending one. The little girl. The Key. Destroy it, and the will of the Beast will be broken. She will fade, a distant memory... and this madness will end.
They aren't two different issues. They are bound together. They later state that the portal can only be opened at once specific time and one specific place. Once the time passed, it's very plausible the effect is the same as killing Dawn: Glory would fade to nothing.
Hold on hold on hold on... One and I want to EMPHASIZE I will treat what you're saying is GOOD FAITH but that citation is EXTREMELY distortive. That's Gregor speaking to Ben while HE IS TIED UP and imprisoned. To put it mildly, he will in that particular scene at that point in the story SAY ANYTHING so we need to be careful if Gregor is telling the truth. Is he telling the truth? Maybe maybe not. Perhaps he is or perhaps this is what he THINKS will happen.
But certain problems arise
One Giles kills Ben to kill Glory (we'll put aside IF that should even work)
But the key is neutralized by Buffy's sacrifice also the key
SPOILER WARNING
The key is de-keyified in Season 6 - Dawn no longer is part of the key. So the key apparently has been exiled from "our" dimension.
If that's the case it would seem obvious Giles could perform the de-keying and "get rid of" Glory. He does not do that. In fact, he does NOTHING to Dawn/the key. Which suggests the key and Glory are NOT intertwined. Nor does Glory claim this only its a very powerful old tool
Being non-partisan the writers and to my knowledge Joss made the key and Glory metaphysically different.
Also if you're appealing to Gregor he states FIRMLY the key is a power for good. He even says the monks thought this. Gregor never denies this he just thinks its too dangerous for the key to be around.
Glory as SHE says is a force of evil and SHE states the key IS good
So its a logical impossibility IN the story the key cannot be Glory and Glory cannot be the Key.
Why does Gregor say this - and yes I did remember even before you commented
He's lying to Ben
He's gaslighting Ben and perhaps THINKS he's right but who cares. If he's freed Dawn is dead period and that is the MAIN goal. Denied the key Glory can't threaten other dimensions and they need only wait for Ben to be human and kill Glory and its over
The knights HONESTLY have bad ideas about the key. Indeed as Gregor says IN THAT episode he and the monks differed on the key. Its perfectly legit for extremists in the same cult to differ on key doctrines. So Gregor just is wrong and the monks were right but he honestly thinks this and indoctrinated the knights on his interpretation
The entire lore of the key is that it's tied to Glory. Numerous times she calls it "her" key. They key was made at the same time she was banished. Glory is not the key. The key is tied to Glory, hence she can sense it.
While it's entirely possible Gregor might be wrong, he has no reason to lie and his claim is backed up by the entire Order's actions in trying to destroy the key.
I want to ty by the way I saw this scene recently and it is VERY important and far beyond this debate
[Glory's minions brings Spike to her thinking he is the Key]
Glory: That's fantabulous, and impossible. He can't be the Key, because, see, the *Key* has to be pure. This is a vampire. Lesson number one: Vampires equal impure.
Spike: Yeah, damn right. I'm impure. I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow. Let me go.
So this is a triple treat
Glory says well the key is PURE so it CANNOT be HER OR spike - the key cannot be ANY demon spike or vampire or GODDESS of evil
So Glory IS not connected to the Key. Gregor is wrong
Glory states the key must be pure AND NEW TO THE WORLD
This is tricky as Glory seems "new" too but one can guesswork she's been around for a few decades - the key came into existence for a few months
Glory CAN sense impurity. So again the key and her ARE distinct entities. Are they interconnected. Glory consistently states the key is to be used as a tool. It may be a force for good but her goal is to use its power. Unless her going through the portal MAKES her the key - the key just is a tool to open dimensions.
How is it a plot hole? Giles sees that the price of being wrong is catastrophe and so he does what needed to be done (in his view). One dead bad guy is a cheap price to pay to make it certain that Glory will not return, even if technically the bad guy isn't fighting back at that specific moment.
With spike we saw buffy respond to it. Tried to stop him and when the chip was believed to be removed willing to kill him aka WHEN he became an active threat
Buffy would have responded had Ben turned to glory again but Giles knew she wouldn't act before then because for the battle they were in glory was neutralized and no longer a direct threat. Buffy couldn't harm anyone she viewed as innocent or not directly harmful. Ben was not directly harmful. She stopped when glory turned back Into ben
She was a teen whose love was dying. You see how shocked she was when she did it? Sometimes we do act in ways against our values especially when we feel pushed but that doesnt mean its a typical thing for her
Only if it was accidental. If she threw him into a fatal situation on purpose then she did kill him. If you push someone in front of a train you murdered them. But I’ll believe it was by accident.
Although, it was the hyenas he brought over. But I get your point, the assassin is hired, the politician's order the military. So did the exporter send wild hyenas.
I agree Buffy attempted to kill Faith inorder to get blood for Angel and she kills Angel even though he had a soul at the time, although the type of soul could have been demon infected. So against slayer lore on both counts a human in Faiths' case and a soul in Angels' case. The duplicity of Buffy is astonishing getting upset with Faith for killing the mayors' aide.
Yes she's starting out. I think the loose rule is don't kill if possible but she kills in the witch too. Buffy does kill humans but will avoid it if possible
The guy who was struck with an axe probably died. There was another one who fell off the van but since Buffy also fell off the van and was fine there is no telling whether he died or not. Anyhow, those knights attacked her. They went for the kill. Buffy was absolutely acting in self-defence.
Yeah, well. He might be lying. He might be a drama queen. He might be exaggerating. He might refer to men killed by Glory, her minions or car accidents.
If you watch Buffy's fight with the knights of Byzantium closely you will hardly see any fatal actions, except for the axe Buffy throws and maybe that one guy who falls off the van.
He’s clearly referring to the earlier battle in the context of their conversation. He also seems genuinely angry about it so there’s no reason to believe he lied. It also serve no narrative purpose to have a character lie but then never correct him or confirm that he’s lying. We’re meant to obviously take him at his word/accept it as fact.
There are plenty of potentially fatal actions throughout that entire fight. Falling off a moving Winnebago can absolutely be fatal to a regular human, as can being knocked from your horse, and obviously the axe etc. At least two men fall from the roof just fighting Buffy alone, the other gets an axe through the chest, and another is knocked (possibly under the Winnebago) when trying to crawl through the window. 3-4 deaths seem very likely. Buffy only survives falling off on account of being the Slayer whilst regular humans die from far less.
Buffy isn't unbreakable. Slayer healing means she heals from injuries, not that she's not getting any. Faith was in a coma due to the concussion she suffered when falling onto a pickup.
As for the guy who gets knocked out while climbing through a window - that was Anya and her pan, not Buffy.
If a guy climbs onto a moving van (to kill Buffy) and falls off said van that's also not on Buffy. On her are only the two I mentioned. The one with the axe and possibly one she threw off (while he was trying to murder her).
I have no idea why a fanatical bizarro-religious-cult guy from mediieval times should be lying. I have no idea why he should be telling the truth either. I guess both are equally possible. But combinded with the fact that we see the fight and see no deaths (except for axe guy) i lean towards him lying. Or exaggerating. Or just being crazy.
I never claimed Buffy was “unbreakable.” However, it is canon that Slayers are far more durable than a regular human (“I don’t bruise easily”). We see Buffy survive significant falls that would outright kill or severely cripple a regular human, like when she launches herself out of the factory in No Place Like Home and breaks the fall with her back. She’s supernaturally strong.
So yes, Buffy surviving the fall from the Winnebago doesn’t really say much about whether the knights would’ve survived because she’s a supernaturally strong being and they’re not. It’s comparing apples and oranges.
I don’t need to be reminded that the knights were trying to murder Buffy or that she was acting in self-defence. Pointing out that several men died was merely quoting the episode and not a judgement of Buffy, so there’s no need to get defensive.
You seem to not want Buffy to be responsible for multiple deaths, despite simultaneously arguing that she’d have every right to be. I can’t explain why else you’re so insistent the Knight must be lying despite you hoping he was. From where I’m standing, we saw multiple incidents of knights suffering pretty clear mortal accidents/injuries that would reasonably result in their death. We then get their deaths explicitly confirmed in a line of dialogue. It’s pretty clear cut. If you want to insist in spite of this that the knight was lying all power to you, but it seems based more on your discomfort than anything. Either that or it’s simply an ego thing and you don’t like being corrected. Either way, you do you.
They weren't trying to murder Buffy not was she acting in self defense. Can people actually watch the episode. They aren't dumb the slayer is too strong to kill. The whole point is overwhelm Buffy kill dawn and leave. As long as Buffy stands in their way to get to dawn they fight her. If they got lucky and killed dawn they would leave. You don't have to like the knights but they are fanatics after the key. Buffy is not relevant the key no pun is the key. They certainly have no issue with Buffy per se. I mean they know in a one to one fight she could and would kill them. It's a tradeoff. Not hard to figure out.
Lol they’re literally trying to swing swords, an axe and a mace at her head. They also shoot arrows into the Winnebago and plunge a sword through its roof indiscriminately, narrowly missing Buffy both times. It doesn’t matter if their intended goal was to get/kill Dawn, they were clearly willing to kill anyone who stood in their way.
If someone is swinging a sword at your head that’s attempted murder lol.
Bro weapons don't "hurt" Buffy like that. Buffy can literally shrug even a sword attack. The knights know that the clear intent is hurt Buffy enough to get Dawn and kill her. I doubt they seriously intended to kill a Slayer. They can't do it - whatever their intent
I'm not denying they were aiming to kill Xander Anya etc
But one on one with Buffy 'attempted murder' doesn't make sense
Arrows and sword attacks would hurt Buffy and even maybe render her unconscious but given her healing abilities she'll get up. Unless they have incredible magic to stop her - which they don't - Buffy ain't getting killed no way by the knights.
Discussing this seems to make you very uncomfortable. I am sorry you can't deal with someone not agreeing with you. If a character tells me something that is cotradicted by what I see on screen I tend to believe the character lied. Yes, Buffy probably killed at least one knight with an axe in self-defence. No, she didn't kill lots and lots of knights. There were three who fell off the roof and we don't know about their fate. They wore helmets and chainsaw and landed on soft ground. We do NOT see their corpses lying around. There was one guy who took an axe and he was probably dead. And those are the facts.
There's enough to imply the knights are honorable men. I know the knights cause massive anger among fans but people need to calm down. They only lie to get to glory and destroy the key. Otherwise they act honorably. Whatever else they think their motives are pure they may be deceiving themselves about their goals but why would they lie to Buffy about losing men. They even take a pledge willing to be killed so assuming a lie seems out of character. Why would they lie?
Those people are in a cult. They'd do anything. They don't have morals. The only rules that apply to them is the codex of their cult. They are representing people who are religious fanatics.
No she wasn't she was protecting dawn
She was not in danger and given her superpower she could smack the knights into unconscious... I like a lot of things in season 5 but the fight scenes needed better choreography.
Lol, they are coming after Buffy who is on the rooftop while Dawn is inside the Winnebago and they are attacking Buffy with swords and axes but she's not in danger and they are not after her.
It's not implied lol she DOES kill them. I know people defend it but it's a massive retcon and just makes the faith Buffy conflict pointless. Sigh. Joss messed up. But hey we all hate the knights so whoops too bad oomsn you die now ... Lol 😂
This is a very good point. Post could have survived the loss of her arm if it weren't for the lightning. Although one could argue Buffy could have anticipated the lightning or its equivalent since Angel warned her the glove couldn't be taken off once put on. But there's still a distinction to be made between actively killing her and incapacitating her even with the knowledge that the latter would result in her death.
There’s no official rules. Rather than a code that Buffy lives by.
But in regards to Gwendolyn, she didn’t actively try and kill her, rather than remove the glove. Which was fused to her. Once the lightening struck again, she didn’t have the glove to channel it, and it killed her. Maybe Buffy knew that it would do that. Maybe she didn’t. Either way, removing the glove was the only way to incapacitate her
I’d say it doesn’t really count because Buffy wasn’t aiming to kill her, and never delivered what would be a killing blow. She cut part of her arm off to remove the glove, then lightning struck her, so it wasn’t really Buffy’s fault as such.
It's not the writers forgetting stuff. Slayers aren't supposed to kill humans if they can avoid it, they don't get to pass judgement on humans and act as judge, jury and executioner. But they are allowed to defend themselves and others from harm.
Gwendolyn Post was attempting to kill people using the power of the glove to zap people with lightning. Buffy defended everyone by removing the glove the only way she could, by removing the arm it was attached to - it wasn't her intention to kill the ex-watcher, just to negate the threat. If the lightning strike hadn't vaporized her, if she'd just collapsed and the lightning no longer continued, I expect she would have then tried to save the woman by using a tourniquet on her arm or something.
The mercenary twins during "Slayerfest 98" were coming after her with automatic weapons - she defended herself by using the tracking devices they'd planted in the corsages against them, tricking them into shooting each other; they fired at what they thought were their targets, their deaths are their own fault.
The knights of Byzantium near the end of season 5 were endangering everyone, attacking with lethal albeit medieval weaponry, any that died as a result of attacking her and her friends bought their fates with their own actions.
Bro are you forgetting Tara literally saying you're a killer. The slayers are killers even humans. Buffy does show mercy it's her inconsistencies which are troubling
The knights were NOT endangering everyone. The team was in danger due to dawn. Giles himself brings up good reasons to kill dawn. I think the knights get too much hate. From their perspective it's a mace windu problem. Glory and the key are too dangerous but glory is too powerful so killing the key isn't ideal but the alternative is horrific.
My interpretation is that Buffy is only supposed to be fighting supernatural threats.
If a regular human tried to mug her, she doesn't have a license to kill, but if that mugger is using magic and she can claim it's a proportional response she's fine, Watcher's Council doesn't care.
Their job is to fight demons, vampires, supernatural threats, not normal humans. Just in general, most people aren't supposed to be killing other people, and slayers don't have any special exceptions there. They shouldn't kill people if they can avoid it, but they don't have to let themselves or other innocent people die just because there isn't a nonlethal way of stopping another person from killing them
isn't that against the rules cause she's human I know the glove did most of the work but buffy cut off her arm
Her actions definitely caused Gwendolyn to die. Even if the magic of the glove didn't kill her, she would need medical attention quickly just because of having her arm chopped off, and she'd be at risk of potentially dying of blood loss if they don't have anything that makes a good tourniquet, or infection or other complications if she's unlucky.
Killing her was not the goal, stopping her was, but shit happens, and she didn't survive it.
and has buffy broke this rule anymore times
Off the top of my head:
Season 5: The knights who are trying to kill Dawn are human. It's mentioned that several of them died when they were attacking the scoobies in the RV. Giles probably killed some of them, but we see Buffy kill at least one of them with a thrown axe. They were trying to kill Dawn and the others, and there were just too many of them for her to risk holding back
Season 7: Caleb, the Reverend Hates Women, was given super strength by the first evil, but he was still human, and Buffy cut him in half with the scythe/axe thing
Season 4, honorable mention: Buffy was willing to kill Faith to save Angel when Faith tried to kill him. Faith ended up living, but it wasn't due to Buffy holding back
Dawn in season 5 is NOT human. I don't know what she is but she's not human. She has the form of a human due to the monks. Dawn in a human from season 6 and onwards.
Ps you count Caleb as human and dawn as human wow you're flexible what makes a human
The comment you replied to doesn't say anything about Dawn being human?
Are you trying to say that because Dawn was created by the monks she doesn't count as human and therefore Buffy was not morally justified in using lethal force to protect her? Because that's certainly an opinion you could have, but Buffy considers Dawn to be human, so her actions are consistent with her worldview and moral views, even if they aren't consistent with everyone's
Ps you count Caleb as human
How is Caleb not human? He's a bad person, but he was born human, grew up, went to seminary, became a priest or minister and also a serial killer. He eventually became a follower of the first evil, who gave him a series of temporary strength boosts, but nothing in the show indicated that he became a different species. Did Riley stop being human when he was on the Institutes super strength drugs?
Right Buffy counts her as human although Joyce and Buffy debate even that as her status is to put it mildly is WEIRD. Yes i was talking about what the monks made although to be fair its the key itself right? Which is what? All they say is its some old powerful cosmic energy - Dawn is the vessel FOR the key. So is the key human? NO. Its just an energy Dawn embodies. I don't think Dawn COULD be human at most she's a STRANGE hybrid
Re Caleb. If Caleb is endowed with supernatural abilities by definition his body is RADICALLY altered
He even survives fatal blows up to the last episode and gets up. I would be consistent and say absolutely Riley is no longer human he's literally a METAhuman. Its interesting lore question what to categorize him but saying he's 100 percent human is not true by the canon the show goes by.
Buffy even comments on him being a superman and she doesn't care about that.
Buffy isn’t Batman. She will kill humans if it means protecting the safety of innocent people or removing a threat the police can’t handle. She just tries to avoid killing humans if there are human laws in place already that can handle the situation.
There's no formal rule but it's buffys personal code not to kill humans. However humans enhanced by magic can be considered an exception cos the point is buffy handles things normal human justice wouldn't be able to and its not like the police woulda been a match for gwen and the glove. Gwen sacrificed her right to be protected by the slayer when she chose to use the supernatural for evil. Same for the zookeeper in season 1
The only one that is hard to justify was the knights in season 5, you could argue they were getting involved in supernatural world but they weren't enhanced by it or using it towards evil ends.....and buffy straight up throws an axe into them 😬 kinda contradicts when she can't kill Ben later on even though he is half a hell god
I don't think the magic enhancement was the exception in season 5, it's just about whether she has other options. She(and probably Giles) killed some of the knights in self defense because they were actively trying to kill Dawn and the rest of the scoobies, and there were too many for her to be able to deal with if she held back.
She wouldn't kill Ben because he was not currently an immediate threat to anyone
Yeah it's a massive plot hole. All you can say is buffy loved dawn the knights deserve death but why complain about faith idk what about Ben idk ... Yeah it seems based on Buffys judgement and why is she so special ... Yeah the writers just threw out seasons 1 to 4 ... It is what it is ...
The knights didn't deserve death, their one goal was to stop Glory from ending the world which is pretty damn noble. The only difference is they had no personal connections to Dawn so had no qualms ending her life for the greater good. I don't really know what moral that season was going for cos if it was every life has value and should be fought for then it doesn't make sense how Buffy was allowed to kill a bunch of humans to protect one. Or how the only way to stop Glory was to kill a human (though they kinda copped out and made Giles do it instead of Buffy). Even at the end Buffy sacrifices herself for Dawn, a life for a life. Idk what made Dawn's life so much more valuable than all the other human lives that season aside from that Buffy decided it was.
When a human involves themselves in the supernatural, to use it or aid/abet it, to further evil - they become a legitimate target the slayers can take action against.
It's that simple
(Ben doesn't count here - he didn't involve himself, it was thrust upon him. In fact, until he aids Glory's goal at the very end to open the portal, none of it was his choice. It was only after that moment that Ben became a legitimate target - because he chose to side with Glory to save himself.)
Yeah but that begs the question. Ben joins glory at the end and the change is flimsy. He also only does it pressured by glory. Killing a guy forced to do something bad is horrifying but Giles feels no guilt. So why are the knights bad or faith or the initiative. Or Spike?!?
Giles knows that Glory can't herself be killed, but because Ben chose to side with her to save himself, willing to sacrifice the world in order to save his own skin, Giles takes the opportunity offered to him - because he knows Buffy couldn't, and because Ben is no longer worthy of salvation. Being willing to let millions die to save yourself makes you a monster, even if your flesh and soul remain human. Giles understands that, and Buffy really wouldn't.
The knights want to murder Dawn and they'll kill anyone in their way in order to do that. They aren't interested in sitting down and finding an alternative way which keeps Dawn alive. They want to commit a great evil to do a "greater good" and believe the ends justify the means. By so doing, they are legitimate targets.
The Initiative is literally creating a supernatural monster super soldier, and even when told by one of their own that something evil is going on, they choose to not to investigate and blindly "protect the mission" and treat the Slayer (whom they know has protected the world for centuries from evil) as the enemy. They have the choice to believe Riley and look into what he's saying, but they choose not to - thus making themselves part of the threat against the world which the Slayer is obligated to stop.
Faith has chosen to serve a supernatural evil, and does evil, and has already murdered someone with no apparent remorse. And until that changes, she has made herself a legitimate target. It's a given that when a Slayer goes rogue, the Council, Watchers, or in this case, another Slayer are obligated to stop her.
Spike was always a legitimate target, simply by being a vampire. Buffy spares him when he isn't a current threat, and tries to kill him when he is. Which is more than he'd ever have gotten from any other Slayer.
Well you're misrepresenting some things. Faith kills a human and gaslights and lies to Giles which makes Giles and Buffy distrust her. Had Buffy been more understanding Faith might not have turned to the Mayor. You're begging the question.
The issue is not re knights or initiative COULD be legit targets. Of course yes but who decides? Buffy and/or Giles apparently. And who gave them that authority? Themselves so its a justification resting on their POV which is rather problematic
Also the Watchers try to stop Faith not because she is endangering humans but because he's NOT under their control. The seasons from 3 to 7 PROVE the Watchers NO 1 goal is POWER and control. The first says that at the end of episode 1 lessons in s7. I'm surprised you don't know the watchers are villains.
If buffy finds a cabal of evil warlocks about to kill a bunch of children the council isn’t going to sanction her for it. Faith did because she killed a non-combatant who wasn’t doing anything.
Nope still a contradiction. You could say Buffy killed to save dawn and faith was being reckless. Also he wasn't a civilian. He was an evil guy. So why season 3... Don't ask...
They didn't know the mayor's employee was a bad guy, as far as they knew he was just some random office worker going home late and accidentally stumbling into a fight.
Buffy wasnt trying to kill Post, she was just trying to get the glove off her arm. She didn’t know it would cause her death. And I think the slayers cant kill humans rules has a few caveats. Like when a watcher goes evil and starts using powerful magical artifacts to try and take over
Buffy didn't kill Gwendolyn Post. The lightning that Gwendolyn Post summoned through the Glove of Myhnegon killed her. Buffy just cut off her arm to save herself and the Scoobies from being killed by Post. Buffy had no control over the lightning
Well Buffy saved Gwendolyn from the evil power of the glove, because the glove can only release when the person it is on is dead, so by only cutting her arm off she saved her. It seems the lightening actually kills Gwendolyn.
If you're a first time viewer they're actually going to explore this a bit you're in for a ride.
But this is one of this things where technically, Buffy didn't kill her. (And she's evil trying to gain demonic power so it's a little more black morally.)
When Faith accidently killed that Mayor's assistent in the alley, Giles did explain that accidents do happen. They are after all fighting every single night and sometimes things can get wrong.
With Gwendolyn, Buffy was removing a threat in the end. And the thunder did her a favor.
Buffy didn't kill Gwendolyn. Gwendoly was killed by a bolt of lighning she had summoned herself.
Buffy is allowed to kill humans like every other human is allowed to kil humans - in self-defence when there is no other option. That's what happens to at least one knight of Byzantium. As for the other kills that are often mentioned: Buffy did not kill the zookeeper. he was killed by hyenas. Buffy did not throw him into the den. He attacked Buffy and while Buffy was dodging his attack he accidentally fell into the den. Buffy did not kill the swim team coach. He fell into the water and she desperately tried to save him but failed.
Yes, that was cold-blooded, attempted murder and as far as Buffy is concerned her lowest point in the entire series. However, you can tell from the look on her face in the second pic that she knows this and regrets it.
Well, what about Giles killing Ben? Angel killing ... lots of humans. Faith killing the vulcanologist? Willow killing Rack and Warren? Lots and lots of people get passes on the show.
She goes to prison over it. She's allowed to repent and rejoin the fight against evil but it's made very clear that she needs to atone for her sins.
Willow killing Rack and Warren?
Willow taking out the trash was an act of virtue. She gets a pass because every other character knows that, as much as they might feel obligated to say the words about not killing humans, both of them 100% deserved to die. They barely give any concern at all to the dead incel and dead crack dealer, it's all about worrying that their friend will have to carry the burden of disposing of them.
She goes to prison for one and a half years and entirely on her own terms... Faith basically gets a pass because she realizes what she did was wrong and feels bad about it. Then she is allowed to fight on the good side again.
If you say it's okay to kill a human as long as you think the human deserves to be killed, than Buffy was justified to kill Faith. Faith was working with the Mayor, she was a murderer and she was a threat. She 100% deserved to die. Trying to take her out was an act of virtue.
She goes to prison for one and a half years and entirely on her own terms... Faith basically gets a pass because she realizes what she did was wrong and feels bad about it. Then she is allowed to fight on the good side again.
That's the exact opposite of "getting a pass". She is only forgiven once she repents and becomes a necessary ally in a desperate fight with world-ending stakes. And the show makes it very clear that her forgiveness is a work in progress, that she has been allowed to rejoin the fight against evil but still has a lot of work to do.
If you say it's okay to kill a human as long as you think the human deserves to be killed, than Buffy was justified to kill Faith. Faith was working with the Mayor, she was a murderer and she was a threat. She 100% deserved to die. Trying to take her out was an act of virtue.
Faith was an enemy soldier. Buffy was justified in killing her on the battlefield, not in (hypothetically) killing her in her sleep after the war is over. She picked the wrong side in the middle of a mental health crisis but she was never portrayed as beyond redemption. Even while still serving the Mayor she shows signs of doubting her choices and the main characters understand why she felt pushed to join him.
Warren was an irredeemable incel who made it very clear that he felt he was entitled to rape and abuse whoever caught his eye at the moment. He tried to murder Buffy out of pure anger at a woman being allowed to defy him and killed a beloved innocent bystander in the process. Even as he was about to be killed for what he did he spent his last words insisting that the ex-girlfriend he murdered (in the process of trying to rape her) deserved it for leaving him. The only thing letting him live longer would have done would be increasing his victim count.
Rack was a creepy probably-rapist crack dealer using drugs to lure in new victims and bring them under his control. We don't see much of him but none of what we do see gives any indication that his life has any value whatsoever or that he has any interest in being anything other than a monster.
Do you really not see why one of these three is not like the others?
Do you really not see that you are being judge, jury and executioner? Every human who has ever killed another human because he thought he was justified in killing that other human had your exact reasoning. One deserves to live. One doesn't.
Yes, I am in fact judging people for their crimes. The vast majority of people would agree with me and shed no tears for a dead rapist or crack dealer even if they don't think murdering an enemy soldier after the war is justified.
Ben was an actual danger. Unless you are talking about lawyers, we can assume it was Angelus who killed people. He was a bad guy, as was Faith as was Willow at that point.
Buffy was supposed to be a good guy, and I am being told that gutting Faith and trying to kill her either doesn't count or is Faith's fault. She is getting a huge pass.
In fact, when we look at how Willow was shown as in danger of essentially losing her soul because she was killing the people who killed Tara - how Buffy wasn't protecting Jonathan and Andrew but trying to save Willow - we see how murder is actually seen.
None of that seems to apply to Buffy and Faith. All they needed to do was use the knock out gun to knock out Faith and take as much blood as they needed. Buffy was after revenge as much as she was after blood.
Oz: The only way to cure this thing is to drain the blood of a Slayer.
Buffy: (long pause) Good.
Xander: Good? What did I miss?
Buffy: No, it's perfect. Angel needs to drain a Slayer, then I'll bring him one.
Willow: Buffy, if Angel drains Faith's blood, it'll kill her.
Buffy: Not if she's already dead.
Faith created the conditions for Buffy to get stabby- she fucked around (poisoned Angel) and found out (got stabbed in an attempt to get the antidote). Also Faith herself eventually gets a pass for all her murders not to mention trying to kill Xander
Buffy is supposed to be better than Faith, isn't she? Faith is a bad guy at this point. Saying it's Faith fault that Buffy decided to gut her, premeditated murder, is against what the show stands for - making the moral choice even when it hurts.
The slayer can kill a demon who is running away from her unarmed. Buffy often doesn't, but it's in her mission statement.
A person can't kill a mugger after they have disengaged and are running away unarmed.
A person can kill a mugger mid-attack.
Stabbing Faith was a big deal because they were actively in a fight, yes, but really Buffy's goal was to incapacitate her and feed her to Angel, which is really not ok but the justification was there.
Ben was a big deal because there would have been zero justification if Buffy had done it in that moment.
I felt it was like:
Rule 1: Fight the forces of evil
Rule 2: Don't kill humans
It's a rule but it's not the main rule and if killing a human is needed to fight the forces of evil, it's "allowed" but you should probably take some therapy time afterword's
Buffy had already disarmed Gwendolyn (ba-dum tss) and it was the magic Gwendolyn had channeled that killed her. The Knights were active opponents in battle. There is a difference between that and Giles straight up executing Ben.
I usually go crazy on plot holes but Giles killing Ben is more like stopping Buffys corruption. She could should do it but why add pointless trauma. Buffys not fun. If Ben is dead she knows either Giles or Spike did it. Is it a cop out? Freezing him forever in ice would cruel too. No easy solution
Ps I don't think it's canonical that slayers can't kill humans
The watchers depower slayers so clearly humans can be killed it just should be for a purpose. When faith killed she seemed to enjoy it which is whole other dilemma
Interesting no one brings up poor Adam. He literally counts as human. So it's down to Buffys pov. Human enough she spares you. Less than human well you're in trouble.
I mean that was self defence. I'm pretty sure a slayer doesn't have to accept death just because the attacker happen to have a soul.
I dont think its a rule and when we see buffy do it its justified- shes protecting people.
I think the speech Giles gives in season 5 about how she would let Ben live and view him as innocent is key here. It's not she would never kill a person but rather she would never just kill someone who poses no active threat. Which is also consistent with how she treats spike in season 5.
He has no soul but because he's not an active threat she doesnt slay him
And that’s not Ben wasn’t about her being a slayer but because “She’s a hero, she’s not like us”
So the hero is the issue, not being a slayer, there.
I would chalk that up to bad writing. It also is against what Giles said in the gift early on. If killing dawn might be justified then killing Ben is clearly a no brainer. The speech about heroism is joss overreaching about nothing. Killing Ben has nothing to do with heroism it's just a moral quandary whoever does it.
It’s not about what Buffy can do. It’s about what she is willling to do
That's the idea, though. Giles is morally grey, while Buffy is not.
The point about the "hero" line is that it isn't always a moral quandary. Buffy is a Hero and bound by a moral code to do Good. Giles is a pragmatist who is willing to get his hands dirty to do what is necessary. Buffy can't kill Ben because a Hero doesn't do things like that, Giles feels no such conflict and does what needed to be done.
Killing Ben was an execution, not self-defense. It's actually unclear if Glory was even an issue after the time for the ritual ended. The story implies that once the time passed, her will would be broken and she'd fade to nothing.
I don't see that as connected period and glory just reverting is a big plot hole. The key is not glory and the glory is not tied to the key. So dealing with the key and glory are two separate issues. It makes more sense to let glory live into season 6 and deal with the problem carefully but clearly joss wanted to move on so kill Ben and just end it.
They aren't two different issues. They are bound together. They later state that the portal can only be opened at once specific time and one specific place. Once the time passed, it's very plausible the effect is the same as killing Dawn: Glory would fade to nothing.
Hold on hold on hold on... One and I want to EMPHASIZE I will treat what you're saying is GOOD FAITH but that citation is EXTREMELY distortive. That's Gregor speaking to Ben while HE IS TIED UP and imprisoned. To put it mildly, he will in that particular scene at that point in the story SAY ANYTHING so we need to be careful if Gregor is telling the truth. Is he telling the truth? Maybe maybe not. Perhaps he is or perhaps this is what he THINKS will happen.
But certain problems arise
One Giles kills Ben to kill Glory (we'll put aside IF that should even work)
But the key is neutralized by Buffy's sacrifice also the key
SPOILER WARNING
The key is de-keyified in Season 6 - Dawn no longer is part of the key. So the key apparently has been exiled from "our" dimension.
If that's the case it would seem obvious Giles could perform the de-keying and "get rid of" Glory. He does not do that. In fact, he does NOTHING to Dawn/the key. Which suggests the key and Glory are NOT intertwined. Nor does Glory claim this only its a very powerful old tool
Being non-partisan the writers and to my knowledge Joss made the key and Glory metaphysically different.
Also if you're appealing to Gregor he states FIRMLY the key is a power for good. He even says the monks thought this. Gregor never denies this he just thinks its too dangerous for the key to be around.
Glory as SHE says is a force of evil and SHE states the key IS good
So its a logical impossibility IN the story the key cannot be Glory and Glory cannot be the Key.
Why does Gregor say this - and yes I did remember even before you commented
He's lying to Ben
He's gaslighting Ben and perhaps THINKS he's right but who cares. If he's freed Dawn is dead period and that is the MAIN goal. Denied the key Glory can't threaten other dimensions and they need only wait for Ben to be human and kill Glory and its over
The knights HONESTLY have bad ideas about the key. Indeed as Gregor says IN THAT episode he and the monks differed on the key. Its perfectly legit for extremists in the same cult to differ on key doctrines. So Gregor just is wrong and the monks were right but he honestly thinks this and indoctrinated the knights on his interpretation
The entire lore of the key is that it's tied to Glory. Numerous times she calls it "her" key. They key was made at the same time she was banished. Glory is not the key. The key is tied to Glory, hence she can sense it.
While it's entirely possible Gregor might be wrong, he has no reason to lie and his claim is backed up by the entire Order's actions in trying to destroy the key.
Here is additional info from Glory herself
I want to ty by the way I saw this scene recently and it is VERY important and far beyond this debate
So this is a triple treat
So Glory IS not connected to the Key. Gregor is wrong
This is tricky as Glory seems "new" too but one can guesswork she's been around for a few decades - the key came into existence for a few months
How is it a plot hole? Giles sees that the price of being wrong is catastrophe and so he does what needed to be done (in his view). One dead bad guy is a cheap price to pay to make it certain that Glory will not return, even if technically the bad guy isn't fighting back at that specific moment.
Ben was an active threat of coming back as Glory. Spike tried to take out the chip and kill Buffy.
With spike we saw buffy respond to it. Tried to stop him and when the chip was believed to be removed willing to kill him aka WHEN he became an active threat
Buffy would have responded had Ben turned to glory again but Giles knew she wouldn't act before then because for the battle they were in glory was neutralized and no longer a direct threat. Buffy couldn't harm anyone she viewed as innocent or not directly harmful. Ben was not directly harmful. She stopped when glory turned back Into ben
Unless she needed their blood.
She did gut Faith, intending to kill her and feed her to Angel.
She was a teen whose love was dying. You see how shocked she was when she did it? Sometimes we do act in ways against our values especially when we feel pushed but that doesnt mean its a typical thing for her
The knights in season 5 were human. It's implied she killed quite a few of them
She also threw the zookeeper into the hyena cage .
He was alive when he landed.
Yes such subtleties are important .
Only if it was accidental. If she threw him into a fatal situation on purpose then she did kill him. If you push someone in front of a train you murdered them. But I’ll believe it was by accident.
Although, it was the hyenas he brought over. But I get your point, the assassin is hired, the politician's order the military. So did the exporter send wild hyenas.
So why did Buffy get upset at faith ...??? Oh reasons we have to accept magic retcons every season and just move on
I agree Buffy attempted to kill Faith inorder to get blood for Angel and she kills Angel even though he had a soul at the time, although the type of soul could have been demon infected. So against slayer lore on both counts a human in Faiths' case and a soul in Angels' case. The duplicity of Buffy is astonishing getting upset with Faith for killing the mayors' aide.
Well she was upset for killing the knights at least being a better... oh wait she felt no guilt lmao silly me lolololol
Hardly a consolation when you end up like Principal Flutie .
That's what he got for such wooly-headed liberal thinking.
Yes she's starting out. I think the loose rule is don't kill if possible but she kills in the witch too. Buffy does kill humans but will avoid it if possible
He was possessed by the Hyena spirit, and was on the verge of becoming that incarnate.
I forgot about those she did wail on them while on a rv
The guy who was struck with an axe probably died. There was another one who fell off the van but since Buffy also fell off the van and was fine there is no telling whether he died or not. Anyhow, those knights attacked her. They went for the kill. Buffy was absolutely acting in self-defence.
One of the knights tells Buffy that “several of his men are dead” so he confirms multiple died during the fight.
Yeah, well. He might be lying. He might be a drama queen. He might be exaggerating. He might refer to men killed by Glory, her minions or car accidents.
If you watch Buffy's fight with the knights of Byzantium closely you will hardly see any fatal actions, except for the axe Buffy throws and maybe that one guy who falls off the van.
He’s clearly referring to the earlier battle in the context of their conversation. He also seems genuinely angry about it so there’s no reason to believe he lied. It also serve no narrative purpose to have a character lie but then never correct him or confirm that he’s lying. We’re meant to obviously take him at his word/accept it as fact.
There are plenty of potentially fatal actions throughout that entire fight. Falling off a moving Winnebago can absolutely be fatal to a regular human, as can being knocked from your horse, and obviously the axe etc. At least two men fall from the roof just fighting Buffy alone, the other gets an axe through the chest, and another is knocked (possibly under the Winnebago) when trying to crawl through the window. 3-4 deaths seem very likely. Buffy only survives falling off on account of being the Slayer whilst regular humans die from far less.
Buffy isn't unbreakable. Slayer healing means she heals from injuries, not that she's not getting any. Faith was in a coma due to the concussion she suffered when falling onto a pickup.
As for the guy who gets knocked out while climbing through a window - that was Anya and her pan, not Buffy.
If a guy climbs onto a moving van (to kill Buffy) and falls off said van that's also not on Buffy. On her are only the two I mentioned. The one with the axe and possibly one she threw off (while he was trying to murder her).
I have no idea why a fanatical bizarro-religious-cult guy from mediieval times should be lying. I have no idea why he should be telling the truth either. I guess both are equally possible. But combinded with the fact that we see the fight and see no deaths (except for axe guy) i lean towards him lying. Or exaggerating. Or just being crazy.
I never claimed Buffy was “unbreakable.” However, it is canon that Slayers are far more durable than a regular human (“I don’t bruise easily”). We see Buffy survive significant falls that would outright kill or severely cripple a regular human, like when she launches herself out of the factory in No Place Like Home and breaks the fall with her back. She’s supernaturally strong.
So yes, Buffy surviving the fall from the Winnebago doesn’t really say much about whether the knights would’ve survived because she’s a supernaturally strong being and they’re not. It’s comparing apples and oranges.
I don’t need to be reminded that the knights were trying to murder Buffy or that she was acting in self-defence. Pointing out that several men died was merely quoting the episode and not a judgement of Buffy, so there’s no need to get defensive.
You seem to not want Buffy to be responsible for multiple deaths, despite simultaneously arguing that she’d have every right to be. I can’t explain why else you’re so insistent the Knight must be lying despite you hoping he was. From where I’m standing, we saw multiple incidents of knights suffering pretty clear mortal accidents/injuries that would reasonably result in their death. We then get their deaths explicitly confirmed in a line of dialogue. It’s pretty clear cut. If you want to insist in spite of this that the knight was lying all power to you, but it seems based more on your discomfort than anything. Either that or it’s simply an ego thing and you don’t like being corrected. Either way, you do you.
They weren't trying to murder Buffy not was she acting in self defense. Can people actually watch the episode. They aren't dumb the slayer is too strong to kill. The whole point is overwhelm Buffy kill dawn and leave. As long as Buffy stands in their way to get to dawn they fight her. If they got lucky and killed dawn they would leave. You don't have to like the knights but they are fanatics after the key. Buffy is not relevant the key no pun is the key. They certainly have no issue with Buffy per se. I mean they know in a one to one fight she could and would kill them. It's a tradeoff. Not hard to figure out.
Lol they’re literally trying to swing swords, an axe and a mace at her head. They also shoot arrows into the Winnebago and plunge a sword through its roof indiscriminately, narrowly missing Buffy both times. It doesn’t matter if their intended goal was to get/kill Dawn, they were clearly willing to kill anyone who stood in their way.
If someone is swinging a sword at your head that’s attempted murder lol.
Bro weapons don't "hurt" Buffy like that. Buffy can literally shrug even a sword attack. The knights know that the clear intent is hurt Buffy enough to get Dawn and kill her. I doubt they seriously intended to kill a Slayer. They can't do it - whatever their intent
I'm not denying they were aiming to kill Xander Anya etc
But one on one with Buffy 'attempted murder' doesn't make sense
Arrows and sword attacks would hurt Buffy and even maybe render her unconscious but given her healing abilities she'll get up. Unless they have incredible magic to stop her - which they don't - Buffy ain't getting killed no way by the knights.
Discussing this seems to make you very uncomfortable. I am sorry you can't deal with someone not agreeing with you. If a character tells me something that is cotradicted by what I see on screen I tend to believe the character lied. Yes, Buffy probably killed at least one knight with an axe in self-defence. No, she didn't kill lots and lots of knights. There were three who fell off the roof and we don't know about their fate. They wore helmets and chainsaw and landed on soft ground. We do NOT see their corpses lying around. There was one guy who took an axe and he was probably dead. And those are the facts.
Lol ok mate. Whatever helps you sleep at night ✌️
There's enough to imply the knights are honorable men. I know the knights cause massive anger among fans but people need to calm down. They only lie to get to glory and destroy the key. Otherwise they act honorably. Whatever else they think their motives are pure they may be deceiving themselves about their goals but why would they lie to Buffy about losing men. They even take a pledge willing to be killed so assuming a lie seems out of character. Why would they lie?
Those people are in a cult. They'd do anything. They don't have morals. The only rules that apply to them is the codex of their cult. They are representing people who are religious fanatics.
No she wasn't she was protecting dawn She was not in danger and given her superpower she could smack the knights into unconscious... I like a lot of things in season 5 but the fight scenes needed better choreography.
Lol, they are coming after Buffy who is on the rooftop while Dawn is inside the Winnebago and they are attacking Buffy with swords and axes but she's not in danger and they are not after her.
Yabbut - Glory killed most of 'em.
No she killed ALL of them lol which is silly but canonically not a single knight survived
It's not implied lol she DOES kill them. I know people defend it but it's a massive retcon and just makes the faith Buffy conflict pointless. Sigh. Joss messed up. But hey we all hate the knights so whoops too bad oomsn you die now ... Lol 😂
I just meant to my memory its not directly shown but yes its not something we really need to guess at
I always thought it didn't count because the lightning killed her.
This all could have been avoided if Giles read his memos.
This. She didn't murder Miss Post, she just cut off the glove. The maelstrom of power that Miss Post invited was the cause of death.
The tone when he says “there was a memo, apparently” makes me think they didn’t send him it.
The line as I recall it was, "They swear there was a memo."
Even Wesley doesn’t hold it against Giles when Post gets brought up, and you know he would have if there had actually been a memo.
Which is only more damning
This is a very good point. Post could have survived the loss of her arm if it weren't for the lightning. Although one could argue Buffy could have anticipated the lightning or its equivalent since Angel warned her the glove couldn't be taken off once put on. But there's still a distinction to be made between actively killing her and incapacitating her even with the knowledge that the latter would result in her death.
There’s no official rules. Rather than a code that Buffy lives by.
But in regards to Gwendolyn, she didn’t actively try and kill her, rather than remove the glove. Which was fused to her. Once the lightening struck again, she didn’t have the glove to channel it, and it killed her. Maybe Buffy knew that it would do that. Maybe she didn’t. Either way, removing the glove was the only way to incapacitate her
Her body actually seemed to disappear, which is weird
How enough magic power on any body will destroy it. Adam got decimated. No one cries for him.
I’d say it doesn’t really count because Buffy wasn’t aiming to kill her, and never delivered what would be a killing blow. She cut part of her arm off to remove the glove, then lightning struck her, so it wasn’t really Buffy’s fault as such.
It's not the writers forgetting stuff. Slayers aren't supposed to kill humans if they can avoid it, they don't get to pass judgement on humans and act as judge, jury and executioner. But they are allowed to defend themselves and others from harm.
Gwendolyn Post was attempting to kill people using the power of the glove to zap people with lightning. Buffy defended everyone by removing the glove the only way she could, by removing the arm it was attached to - it wasn't her intention to kill the ex-watcher, just to negate the threat. If the lightning strike hadn't vaporized her, if she'd just collapsed and the lightning no longer continued, I expect she would have then tried to save the woman by using a tourniquet on her arm or something.
The mercenary twins during "Slayerfest 98" were coming after her with automatic weapons - she defended herself by using the tracking devices they'd planted in the corsages against them, tricking them into shooting each other; they fired at what they thought were their targets, their deaths are their own fault.
The knights of Byzantium near the end of season 5 were endangering everyone, attacking with lethal albeit medieval weaponry, any that died as a result of attacking her and her friends bought their fates with their own actions.
Bro are you forgetting Tara literally saying you're a killer. The slayers are killers even humans. Buffy does show mercy it's her inconsistencies which are troubling
She says that to Giles, not to Buffy. It's foreshadowing the fact that he will ruthlessly kill Ben because it's what needed to be done.
The knights were NOT endangering everyone. The team was in danger due to dawn. Giles himself brings up good reasons to kill dawn. I think the knights get too much hate. From their perspective it's a mace windu problem. Glory and the key are too dangerous but glory is too powerful so killing the key isn't ideal but the alternative is horrific.
My interpretation is that Buffy is only supposed to be fighting supernatural threats.
If a regular human tried to mug her, she doesn't have a license to kill, but if that mugger is using magic and she can claim it's a proportional response she's fine, Watcher's Council doesn't care.
Their job is to fight demons, vampires, supernatural threats, not normal humans. Just in general, most people aren't supposed to be killing other people, and slayers don't have any special exceptions there. They shouldn't kill people if they can avoid it, but they don't have to let themselves or other innocent people die just because there isn't a nonlethal way of stopping another person from killing them
Her actions definitely caused Gwendolyn to die. Even if the magic of the glove didn't kill her, she would need medical attention quickly just because of having her arm chopped off, and she'd be at risk of potentially dying of blood loss if they don't have anything that makes a good tourniquet, or infection or other complications if she's unlucky.
Killing her was not the goal, stopping her was, but shit happens, and she didn't survive it.
Off the top of my head:
Season 5: The knights who are trying to kill Dawn are human. It's mentioned that several of them died when they were attacking the scoobies in the RV. Giles probably killed some of them, but we see Buffy kill at least one of them with a thrown axe. They were trying to kill Dawn and the others, and there were just too many of them for her to risk holding back
Season 7: Caleb, the Reverend Hates Women, was given super strength by the first evil, but he was still human, and Buffy cut him in half with the scythe/axe thing
Season 4, honorable mention: Buffy was willing to kill Faith to save Angel when Faith tried to kill him. Faith ended up living, but it wasn't due to Buffy holding back
Dawn in season 5 is NOT human. I don't know what she is but she's not human. She has the form of a human due to the monks. Dawn in a human from season 6 and onwards. Ps you count Caleb as human and dawn as human wow you're flexible what makes a human
The comment you replied to doesn't say anything about Dawn being human?
Are you trying to say that because Dawn was created by the monks she doesn't count as human and therefore Buffy was not morally justified in using lethal force to protect her? Because that's certainly an opinion you could have, but Buffy considers Dawn to be human, so her actions are consistent with her worldview and moral views, even if they aren't consistent with everyone's
How is Caleb not human? He's a bad person, but he was born human, grew up, went to seminary, became a priest or minister and also a serial killer. He eventually became a follower of the first evil, who gave him a series of temporary strength boosts, but nothing in the show indicated that he became a different species. Did Riley stop being human when he was on the Institutes super strength drugs?
Right Buffy counts her as human although Joyce and Buffy debate even that as her status is to put it mildly is WEIRD. Yes i was talking about what the monks made although to be fair its the key itself right? Which is what? All they say is its some old powerful cosmic energy - Dawn is the vessel FOR the key. So is the key human? NO. Its just an energy Dawn embodies. I don't think Dawn COULD be human at most she's a STRANGE hybrid
Re Caleb. If Caleb is endowed with supernatural abilities by definition his body is RADICALLY altered
He even survives fatal blows up to the last episode and gets up. I would be consistent and say absolutely Riley is no longer human he's literally a METAhuman. Its interesting lore question what to categorize him but saying he's 100 percent human is not true by the canon the show goes by.
Buffy even comments on him being a superman and she doesn't care about that.
Buffy isn’t Batman. She will kill humans if it means protecting the safety of innocent people or removing a threat the police can’t handle. She just tries to avoid killing humans if there are human laws in place already that can handle the situation.
There's no formal rule but it's buffys personal code not to kill humans. However humans enhanced by magic can be considered an exception cos the point is buffy handles things normal human justice wouldn't be able to and its not like the police woulda been a match for gwen and the glove. Gwen sacrificed her right to be protected by the slayer when she chose to use the supernatural for evil. Same for the zookeeper in season 1
The only one that is hard to justify was the knights in season 5, you could argue they were getting involved in supernatural world but they weren't enhanced by it or using it towards evil ends.....and buffy straight up throws an axe into them 😬 kinda contradicts when she can't kill Ben later on even though he is half a hell god
I don't think the magic enhancement was the exception in season 5, it's just about whether she has other options. She(and probably Giles) killed some of the knights in self defense because they were actively trying to kill Dawn and the rest of the scoobies, and there were too many for her to be able to deal with if she held back.
She wouldn't kill Ben because he was not currently an immediate threat to anyone
Yeah it's a massive plot hole. All you can say is buffy loved dawn the knights deserve death but why complain about faith idk what about Ben idk ... Yeah it seems based on Buffys judgement and why is she so special ... Yeah the writers just threw out seasons 1 to 4 ... It is what it is ...
The knights didn't deserve death, their one goal was to stop Glory from ending the world which is pretty damn noble. The only difference is they had no personal connections to Dawn so had no qualms ending her life for the greater good. I don't really know what moral that season was going for cos if it was every life has value and should be fought for then it doesn't make sense how Buffy was allowed to kill a bunch of humans to protect one. Or how the only way to stop Glory was to kill a human (though they kinda copped out and made Giles do it instead of Buffy). Even at the end Buffy sacrifices herself for Dawn, a life for a life. Idk what made Dawn's life so much more valuable than all the other human lives that season aside from that Buffy decided it was.
When a human involves themselves in the supernatural, to use it or aid/abet it, to further evil - they become a legitimate target the slayers can take action against.
It's that simple
(Ben doesn't count here - he didn't involve himself, it was thrust upon him. In fact, until he aids Glory's goal at the very end to open the portal, none of it was his choice. It was only after that moment that Ben became a legitimate target - because he chose to side with Glory to save himself.)
Yeah but that begs the question. Ben joins glory at the end and the change is flimsy. He also only does it pressured by glory. Killing a guy forced to do something bad is horrifying but Giles feels no guilt. So why are the knights bad or faith or the initiative. Or Spike?!?
Giles knows that Glory can't herself be killed, but because Ben chose to side with her to save himself, willing to sacrifice the world in order to save his own skin, Giles takes the opportunity offered to him - because he knows Buffy couldn't, and because Ben is no longer worthy of salvation. Being willing to let millions die to save yourself makes you a monster, even if your flesh and soul remain human. Giles understands that, and Buffy really wouldn't.
Well you're misrepresenting some things. Faith kills a human and gaslights and lies to Giles which makes Giles and Buffy distrust her. Had Buffy been more understanding Faith might not have turned to the Mayor. You're begging the question.
The issue is not re knights or initiative COULD be legit targets. Of course yes but who decides? Buffy and/or Giles apparently. And who gave them that authority? Themselves so its a justification resting on their POV which is rather problematic
Also the Watchers try to stop Faith not because she is endangering humans but because he's NOT under their control. The seasons from 3 to 7 PROVE the Watchers NO 1 goal is POWER and control. The first says that at the end of episode 1 lessons in s7. I'm surprised you don't know the watchers are villains.
Buffy has a kill count of 9 humans, plus several knights of Byzantium.
Killing in self defense or to save the world seems to be okay. Killing someone unarmed and weaker than you isn't.
If buffy finds a cabal of evil warlocks about to kill a bunch of children the council isn’t going to sanction her for it. Faith did because she killed a non-combatant who wasn’t doing anything.
Nope still a contradiction. You could say Buffy killed to save dawn and faith was being reckless. Also he wasn't a civilian. He was an evil guy. So why season 3... Don't ask...
They didn't know the mayor's employee was a bad guy, as far as they knew he was just some random office worker going home late and accidentally stumbling into a fight.
Buffy wasnt trying to kill Post, she was just trying to get the glove off her arm. She didn’t know it would cause her death. And I think the slayers cant kill humans rules has a few caveats. Like when a watcher goes evil and starts using powerful magical artifacts to try and take over
Buffy didn't kill Gwendolyn Post. The lightning that Gwendolyn Post summoned through the Glove of Myhnegon killed her. Buffy just cut off her arm to save herself and the Scoobies from being killed by Post. Buffy had no control over the lightning
Well Buffy saved Gwendolyn from the evil power of the glove, because the glove can only release when the person it is on is dead, so by only cutting her arm off she saved her. It seems the lightening actually kills Gwendolyn.
If you're a first time viewer they're actually going to explore this a bit you're in for a ride.
But this is one of this things where technically, Buffy didn't kill her. (And she's evil trying to gain demonic power so it's a little more black morally.)
When Faith accidently killed that Mayor's assistent in the alley, Giles did explain that accidents do happen. They are after all fighting every single night and sometimes things can get wrong.
With Gwendolyn, Buffy was removing a threat in the end. And the thunder did her a favor.
Buffy didn't kill Gwendolyn. Gwendoly was killed by a bolt of lighning she had summoned herself.
Buffy is allowed to kill humans like every other human is allowed to kil humans - in self-defence when there is no other option. That's what happens to at least one knight of Byzantium. As for the other kills that are often mentioned: Buffy did not kill the zookeeper. he was killed by hyenas. Buffy did not throw him into the den. He attacked Buffy and while Buffy was dodging his attack he accidentally fell into the den. Buffy did not kill the swim team coach. He fell into the water and she desperately tried to save him but failed.
What about killing someone to get their blood?
https://preview.redd.it/3i5cxdy6mt8g1.png?width=415&format=png&auto=webp&s=c12c8fc1b2505a995a70fc202be1c592b67520e7
Yes, that was cold-blooded, attempted murder and as far as Buffy is concerned her lowest point in the entire series. However, you can tell from the look on her face in the second pic that she knows this and regrets it.
That is bogus. It's a double standard, which is fine since she is the star. But there is no other character who gets that kind of a pass.
Yes she tried to kill you, and shoved a knife in your gut...but she felt bad.
Well, what about Giles killing Ben? Angel killing ... lots of humans. Faith killing the vulcanologist? Willow killing Rack and Warren? Lots and lots of people get passes on the show.
She goes to prison over it. She's allowed to repent and rejoin the fight against evil but it's made very clear that she needs to atone for her sins.
Willow taking out the trash was an act of virtue. She gets a pass because every other character knows that, as much as they might feel obligated to say the words about not killing humans, both of them 100% deserved to die. They barely give any concern at all to the dead incel and dead crack dealer, it's all about worrying that their friend will have to carry the burden of disposing of them.
She goes to prison for one and a half years and entirely on her own terms... Faith basically gets a pass because she realizes what she did was wrong and feels bad about it. Then she is allowed to fight on the good side again.
If you say it's okay to kill a human as long as you think the human deserves to be killed, than Buffy was justified to kill Faith. Faith was working with the Mayor, she was a murderer and she was a threat. She 100% deserved to die. Trying to take her out was an act of virtue.
That's the exact opposite of "getting a pass". She is only forgiven once she repents and becomes a necessary ally in a desperate fight with world-ending stakes. And the show makes it very clear that her forgiveness is a work in progress, that she has been allowed to rejoin the fight against evil but still has a lot of work to do.
Faith was an enemy soldier. Buffy was justified in killing her on the battlefield, not in (hypothetically) killing her in her sleep after the war is over. She picked the wrong side in the middle of a mental health crisis but she was never portrayed as beyond redemption. Even while still serving the Mayor she shows signs of doubting her choices and the main characters understand why she felt pushed to join him.
Warren was an irredeemable incel who made it very clear that he felt he was entitled to rape and abuse whoever caught his eye at the moment. He tried to murder Buffy out of pure anger at a woman being allowed to defy him and killed a beloved innocent bystander in the process. Even as he was about to be killed for what he did he spent his last words insisting that the ex-girlfriend he murdered (in the process of trying to rape her) deserved it for leaving him. The only thing letting him live longer would have done would be increasing his victim count.
Rack was a creepy probably-rapist crack dealer using drugs to lure in new victims and bring them under his control. We don't see much of him but none of what we do see gives any indication that his life has any value whatsoever or that he has any interest in being anything other than a monster.
Do you really not see why one of these three is not like the others?
Do you really not see that you are being judge, jury and executioner? Every human who has ever killed another human because he thought he was justified in killing that other human had your exact reasoning. One deserves to live. One doesn't.
Yes, I am in fact judging people for their crimes. The vast majority of people would agree with me and shed no tears for a dead rapist or crack dealer even if they don't think murdering an enemy soldier after the war is justified.
Ben was an actual danger. Unless you are talking about lawyers, we can assume it was Angelus who killed people. He was a bad guy, as was Faith as was Willow at that point.
Buffy was supposed to be a good guy, and I am being told that gutting Faith and trying to kill her either doesn't count or is Faith's fault. She is getting a huge pass.
In fact, when we look at how Willow was shown as in danger of essentially losing her soul because she was killing the people who killed Tara - how Buffy wasn't protecting Jonathan and Andrew but trying to save Willow - we see how murder is actually seen.
None of that seems to apply to Buffy and Faith. All they needed to do was use the knock out gun to knock out Faith and take as much blood as they needed. Buffy was after revenge as much as she was after blood.
Oz: The only way to cure this thing is to drain the blood of a Slayer.
Buffy: (long pause) Good.
Xander: Good? What did I miss?
Buffy: No, it's perfect. Angel needs to drain a Slayer, then I'll bring him one.
Willow: Buffy, if Angel drains Faith's blood, it'll kill her.
Buffy: Not if she's already dead.
Faith was an actual danger.
Faith created the conditions for Buffy to get stabby- she fucked around (poisoned Angel) and found out (got stabbed in an attempt to get the antidote). Also Faith herself eventually gets a pass for all her murders not to mention trying to kill Xander
Buffy is supposed to be better than Faith, isn't she? Faith is a bad guy at this point. Saying it's Faith fault that Buffy decided to gut her, premeditated murder, is against what the show stands for - making the moral choice even when it hurts.
There were other choices besides murder.
It's against the rules for me to kill my neighbors, but not if they're attacking me with an axe.
The slayer can kill a demon who is running away from her unarmed. Buffy often doesn't, but it's in her mission statement.
A person can't kill a mugger after they have disengaged and are running away unarmed.
A person can kill a mugger mid-attack.
Stabbing Faith was a big deal because they were actively in a fight, yes, but really Buffy's goal was to incapacitate her and feed her to Angel, which is really not ok but the justification was there.
Ben was a big deal because there would have been zero justification if Buffy had done it in that moment.
I felt it was like:
Rule 1: Fight the forces of evil
Rule 2: Don't kill humans
It's a rule but it's not the main rule and if killing a human is needed to fight the forces of evil, it's "allowed" but you should probably take some therapy time afterword's
reminds me of the Three Laws of Robotics, with a less strict heirarchy.
Buffy had already disarmed Gwendolyn (ba-dum tss) and it was the magic Gwendolyn had channeled that killed her. The Knights were active opponents in battle. There is a difference between that and Giles straight up executing Ben.
Buffy did not kill Ms. Post, but if she had it would have been justified as Post was actively trying to kill everyone there.
I usually go crazy on plot holes but Giles killing Ben is more like stopping Buffys corruption. She could should do it but why add pointless trauma. Buffys not fun. If Ben is dead she knows either Giles or Spike did it. Is it a cop out? Freezing him forever in ice would cruel too. No easy solution Ps I don't think it's canonical that slayers can't kill humans The watchers depower slayers so clearly humans can be killed it just should be for a purpose. When faith killed she seemed to enjoy it which is whole other dilemma
Interesting no one brings up poor Adam. He literally counts as human. So it's down to Buffys pov. Human enough she spares you. Less than human well you're in trouble.
She only maimed her, though. Lightning killed Gwendolyn Post ⚡️
It's not like she's a paladin from D&D where she'll lose her powers if she breaks the rules, I'm not sure what you think the writers forgot?