Poor fucker. I think the repeated encouragement to bring someone, anyone, a friend, male or female - was actually a pretty big hint that “look, we already have you pegged as a weirdo and a loner with no social skills and you really need to prove us wrong, and this event is your one big shot at it”.
Except that LAUKOP is too neurodivergent to take a hint.
“look, we already have you pegged as a weirdo and a loner with no social skills and you really need to prove us wrong, and this event is your one big shot at it”.
Except that LAUKOP is too neurodivergent to take a hint.
I had a similar situation at a previous job and decided to bring my best friend because I knew that she had a black tie dress that she could wear.
My neurodivergent ass did not understand that bringing my best female friend would have implications, so instead of being considered the weirdo with no social skills I was then seen as a lesbian with anxiety about coming out to people. Insisting that we were 'just best friends' did not help 😅
Word for word this is what happened to me at my first staff xmas party. I didn’t protest too much - I think after the second person asked (months later) how my “girlfriend” was doing, I just started responding that she was doing well. It seemed too complicated to explain that I invited her because she was my best friend and I felt safer navigating new and unfamiliar social situations with her.
"We are afraid you might have a closet full of corpses wrapped in cling film, please bring anyone alive to assure us you're not actually a serial killer."
It also sounds like LAUKOP made a huge deal of not wanting to bring a partner which is… odd. I also don’t date and have never dated, so I sympathize. But the way to deal with this is show up alone and pretend that your date got last minute food poisoning, not make such a big deal about it that your manager pulls you aside about it.
They never mentioned if they had family, but in a few of their comments they said they don’t have friends and don’t really “get” hanging out with people, which I think is the real root of the problem
They eventually get into a tirade about how they've been on dating apps since 19 even trying for "hookups", "paying for premium" and have gotten nowhere. They give a pretty classic image of someone who doesnt realize just how bad with people they really are.
Have you considered hiring a social coach? I'm serious. Some people just need to have social skills explicitly taught to them. There are people who do that. Politicians and executives do it, why not you?
It took me well into my 30s to develop real social skills. I managed with therapy, but I know people more awkward than me who have needed more help. Just give it a chance.
They're more for addressing the potential root of why you might feel the way you feel. Sometimes it's just how you are, other times it's a learned fear, either way it's led to a stagnation of learning the soft skills.
Social coaches might have a little overlap but they are definitely more focused on directly teaching the skills. Here's how to answer questions, how to small talk, how to make someone not think you're bizarre at surface level conversation. The stuff that might come naturally to some but for others is fully opaque.
I can picture my husband having this issue if it weren't for me, but he'd probably invite his mum or one of his stepsiblings. He's autistic and extremely introverted. (I'm less so, but not by much.) He can step up and manage in social situations, he's actually really charming and everyone likes him, he just finds being around people exhausting.
Even my most awkward friend (think Confederacy of Dunces level) could count on his sister as a plus one. Or me, I'd do it for him. (He's very difficult, but I have a soft spot for him and he's absolutely brilliant, he just has no idea how to interact with others, and it did in fact destroy his career.)
But in all seriousness, an escort would have been the perfect solution, and a proper one (one who isn't solely a thinly veiled sex worker) will be used to acting as a plus one at posh business events. She could even coach him on his own social skills. Escorts get this kind of gig all the time.
I think the OOP really needs to hire a social coach if they want their career to progress. Such people do exist, and many ambitious people use those services, especially executives and politicians. Either that of he should talk to his boss about mentoring.
Business idea: Trained actors that people hire for parties specifically to cause a scene and make a good story/gossip. People bond very well over retelling those things.
My friend hired a wedding singer whose shtick is to start acting like there's some drama then whip out a mic and sing. At his, the singer came in like a deliveroo driver and addressed this guy who's a picky eater, the groom (who hired him) stood up and shouted 'really?! You didn't like the options I spent hours picking out!!'. Everyone was excited and murmuring and the laughter was immense when it was clearly a set-up
I was gonna say, even if you don't have a friend available (I can sympathize there, lost contact with most of my friends and the ones I do have are scattered about - it's not straightforward to get them to come to an event like this), but what I do have is siblings and cousins I can invite.
Or, failing that, pull a sickie a couple of days before and tell everyone you have terrible diarrhea.
I think the problem with the last is that this feels like it was a social test: could he come and do the social interactions enough that they felt comfortable moving him up. He has the mental game, does he have the social?
If he had not attended, same result - no promotion.
I'm imagining that for anyone else they'd be willing to overlook this - the other candidates have demonstrated their ability to socialize or have built enough cachet that they'd get the benefit of the doubt if they showed up alone or not at all. That for this to be the deciding factor means OP's reputation isn't great already.
Yes. The irony of the title is that doing that probably would have saved OP. There are escorts who specialise in this, and one of them likely would also have known how to make LAOP look good and like he has social skills.
There are escorts who specialise in this, and one of them likely would also have known how to make LAOP look good and like he has social skills.
Right?
Hell, there was a pretty famous BORU about a ND dude who had accepted he wouldn't ever be in a relationship so he just hired escorts for functions. One of them ended up liking him and they ended up doing just friends(Cars & Coffee, etc.) stuff until she basically hit him over the head that she was interested in him.
Are there, though? I know that’s the received wisdom but really the older I get, the less likely I think it is that there are all that many or would be easy to find.
But you can ring any high end escort agency, explain the situation and they’ll send you an escort for this type of thing. There are plenty of regular high end sex workers who will do a function without the intimate part at the end. You can pretty much book a sex worker for whatever you want. You don’t have to engage in the sexual services.
But the way to deal with this is show up alone and pretend that your date got last minute food poisoning
I think that's even a step too far. They just wanted him to be relaxed and sociable, and people often find it easier to do that in situations where there are others present that aren't part of the business [aka, having a date or a friend there]. He just sounds like he wasn't able to stop feeling miserable and awkward, and he projected that very clearly to everyone around him
I think too many commenters are taking LAOP's read of the situation too literally. He thinks he is disliked because he didn't bring a date. I sincerely doubt that was the source of his issue with management, his asocialness is, the lack of a date just added to the fire.
Exactly. And I think there's also the factor of "we gave you explicit instructions with tons of leeway, and you didn't follow them". Sure it's not instructions directly related to his job, but they told him to not come alone, that the +1 is mandatory, bring anyone, and he didn't. I feel bad for the guy, but if he can't understand that friends & socializing are important after five years of therapy, then I don't know what's going to get through to him.
a lot of awkward conversations and time spent by myself.
I bet the real issue lies in there, somewhere, not in his inability to bring a date to the event. Our hero could have styled it out but he doesn't sound like a styler-outer unfortunately.
In a later comment OP mentions not really wanting to hire someone to accompany them as then they could not spend time on their phone or spend more time on bathroom breaks like they do when they go by themselves.
I mean they don't have to hire someone but they are delusional if they think management didn't take notice of their actions.
Reading all of LAOP’s comments, I got the distinct impression that he behaved pretty problematically at the event - making conversations awkward, not engaging, being on his phone and disappearing. I think the issue goes well beyond not having a date. I don’t think LAOP understands the extent of his social issues, or that the work event was work, not just a hand out.
So, wait. In addition to not bringing a date, he spent a significant portion of the event either hiding in the bathroom or scrolling on his phone? I think that's the bigger problem than the lack of a date.
Part of me also thinks that even if he had brought an obvious prostitute, he would have gotten some pity points for problem solving at least, rather than simply showing up and spending his whole night on his phone and in the bathroom.
I think that they took him aside and told him that it was OK if he brought a same-sex date is a bit telling. There is something in his social behavior that is making him awkward, and they were trying to pin it down and help him out. Being sociable and approachable in the office or at the event, he'd probably have been fine without a date, but they probably knew that he'd be awkward at the event and figured "if he can at least find SOMEONE to come, there's hope for him". Not being able to do so was just the straw that broke the camel's back.
If that's the case, I feel bad for him. He might do the technical aspects of his job well, but when you get higher up, there are soft skills that are going to be needed, and it can be really hard for people to judge that fairly or grasp that they are being tested and what the parameters for the test are.
ETA: After reading more of that thread, I'm pretty confident the above is what happened. He looks to have undiagnosed autism and can't grasp social behaviors and why they would be important. There was a recent twitter thread about a an interview where someone failed an interview because they were asked what their favorite drink was and they said "water" and nothing else despite being prompted by the interviewer. A lot of people didn't seem to understand why the question was asked and why the given response was bad. I'm fairly bad at social stuff, especially with people I do not know well. But I at least recognize why it's important to go through the motions and at least try.
I completely agree. I'm not some twit who is yelling at his fellow employees or stealing all the milk from the breakroom.
I'm just quiet and keep to myself and consistently overperform. If someone needs help, I'll help them.
it made me realize the guy can't even realize his lack of soft skills is what's holding him back. They don't want someone quiet who will sit in the corner and do their work very well. They want someone who will be a team player, even if it's awkward. They clearly like the guy. They're giving him every chance they can. But dude doesn't even realize what's holding him back. They wanted him to bring someone so they can at least see there's a base they can work on and improve. Get the guy to be at least a little social.
"A romantic partner doesn't just appear from nowhere - you need to make them a friend first."
It's getting a little bit outside the scope of the legal question, but I haven't had any success even when developing a friendship isn't required. For example - a one night stand or hookup. I've been on the dating apps since 19 with zero luck whatsoever. I've tried paying for the premium subscriptions etc. Never got a date out of it.
Guy doesn't even realize that even a one night stand needs to have some level of compatibility. Yeah, you don't need to be friends, but women aren't gonna hook up with a guy unless they feel some form of connection and that he seems like a fun guy. I'm almost curious what he says when he's trying to hook up.
Plus, “I can’t even get a one night stand!” is more or less backwards. Way more men than women are looking for one night stands—partly because for a lot of women, getting off with a brand new partner is very far from a guarantee, so why would you bother? So the ratio of men looking for one night stand with a woman is much higher than women looking for a one night stand with a man. There’s a lot of competition there. Women and men looking for relationships is far more balanced and therefore your odds are better.
Just because you get to the actual sex quicker in a one night stand doesn’t mean they’re any faster or easier to achieve overall.
I've been on the dating apps since 19 with zero luck whatsoever. I've tried paying for the premium subscriptions etc. Never got a date out of it.
I don't want to call it a trend, because I don't know if that's accurate, but there's been a number of videos on social media lately that I've seen where women chronicle them waiting for men to follow-up about dates. I watched one this morning, as example, where the man asked her on a date, she provided her availability for the date, and then waited for an entire week for him to respond, and got nothing. Inevitably, the comments are always full of men saying things like, 'well why didn't you follow-up?' or otherwise making excuses for why they also do this.
Obviously I don't know LAOP, but based on his comments, he strikes me as similar. He seems to be lacking the awareness that socialisation - whether it be for work or for romantic reasons - is a two day street that requires some input from him. He seems to not get that people aren't going to chase you for social interactions, if you don't seem interested, they're not going to bother.
This brings me flashbacks. Holyshit. I quit the apps over 2-3 years ago, and have been in a relationship for less than a year, but forgot about that aspect of dating apps.
I would chat with random guys on the apps, as it goes, and then sometimes the guy would say, "I hate chatting online, I would rather meet in person." And if they didn't seem really shady about that, I'd go along and say sure! Let's just meet. Sometimes I had a weeks long texting period with someone until we both wanted to meet up. Other times, I would be chatting with someone and I'd say, "I think it would be really fun to meet up!" No matter the start of it, often it would end the same way.
I would respond to the date-ask or initiate the meet up by saying, "I think it would be fun to meet up somewhere in the middle of our locations. I have a few favorite spots, but let me know if you have a different preference". And then follow up with, "I think ____ cafe is really chill and has a beautiful outdoor area for chatting, if you wanna grab a beer ____ is nearby too, or if you want to grab lunch we can do that at ____ and walk around - this trail nearby at ____ is really pretty".
And then they would say, "cool!" No preference to what they wanted to do, or what day and when. I would realize I initiated the plan, and they probably figured I wanted to take over, so I would say, "let me know which one sounds fun, and what day/time works for you, and it's a date!"
But would mostly get back, "whenever you want is cool :)".
After that, I started to find it SO unattractive if a guy was the one to insist on meeting up, but put 0 effort into planning where/when. Or, if they wanted to meet me after I asked if they wanted to hang out, and then suddenly the conversation became one-sided when it came to me being the one planning their driving route, or bus, or BART trip.
It's fucking exhausting to be asked out and be like, "ok, here some ideas about what to do", and get agreement, but also crickets.
I completely forgot about how annoying that was until your comment reminded me.
edit: I really should clarify, if I asked them out it was far less annoying. Because I was asking them out. But, often guys would insist on meeting up - but give ZERO effort into planning when or where. That's when I started giving a standard list of options. It was apparent they just wanted to see me in person and didn't give a shit about making the date fun for both of us, and it was a big reason why I stopped having fun even flirting on the apps with guys - it inevitably became a chore.
Absolutely, and I think that's part of the whole trend. It's the same as when women show screenshots of conversations where they're asking questions and the men are just responding with one word answers. If you can't even put in the effort of the dating stage, that's a solid indicator that you won't put any effort into the actual relationship.
(This is not a suggestion, I’m sure you’re tired of hearing them.)
So erm, I had a mate like that. I knew him afterwards of course.
He went to Amsterdam and met a lady. Of the night. And instead of sleeping with her he asked for her help in clocking his problem.
Women in that profession have incredibly finely honed “red flag radars” so she was able to get him started with a few things.
He’s never told me what it was (and I respect his privacy and don’t ask) except to say that whatever it was made people feel something was off but they couldn’t put their fingers on it.
I absolutely, unironically, love this advice. And it's the most useful advice I've heard for this kind of issue. Dear God I wish sex work were legal in more places.
My partner did a very similar thing but to lose his virginity as he felt he was a bit behind the curve on the timing of that. He had sex with her and then afterwards she said very gently “you know, if you want, I can introduce you to my brother” (who I guess also worked in the sex trade)…and that’s how my partner found out he was queer lol.
It’s another great example of how sex workers can be so well positioned (especially if they have a sibling of the opposite sex who is also a sex worker LOL) to give very specific and useful kinds of advice / suggestions that you just can’t get almost anywhere else.
And you better believe every time I think about that story, I giggle. It’s amazing how many different paths we take in figuring out how to have the relationships we want.
I have a philosopher friend who was raised JW but in high school sort of philosopher-logicked himself into realizing he was bisexual. He said he asked himself what the difference between having sex with a man vs a woman was, for him. And realized that for him there wasn’t a difference. Ergo, he is bisexual.
Where it isn't legal, escorts still often are, and they can most likely serve this purpose as well, as they go through all the same things (albeit with more legal cover to fall back on if things go south).
Before LAOP's account was nuked from orbit, my observation was he viewed social relationships in a very... transactional way. And even if he didn't, that's how it expressed.
People, and particularly potential partners, don't really want to be seen as transactions even if there is a component to that in any relationship (e.g. I can pick you up from the airport on Fri but I have that big meeting later on, can you make our dinner reservations?). You do things with/for someone because you want them to be happy, not because you expect a tit-for-tat reciprocity.
You can get taken advantage of in a relationship where you are doing all the giving, but in a healthy relationship there isn't a score that's being kept. Needs and wants are met because you want each other to be happy, not because you expect certain behaviors in return.
Oh there's nothing wrong with water. The problem is answering "water", which most people would find a sorta uninteresting answer, without any sort of follow up and conversation. i.e. "Yeah, water is a bit boring but I just find it the most refreshing thing - though sometimes a nice cup of tea really hits the spot. What about you?"
Oh completely agree. You can have "boring" answers to those kinds of questions, but you have to be willing to commit to them enough to establish a bit of personality and/or make it clear you're not just refusing to think about the question.
I saw the original post, and TBH they could have substituted any answer and had the exact same problem.
"What's your favourite drink?"
"Tea."
With the wrong inflection and no follow up (or a generally negative reaction to the follow up) I can see this being a conversational roadblock. One person is trying to invite discussion, the other isn't following them.
I have some sympathy, but you've gotta know what game is being played. This is a conversation, not a quiz and you need to give people something to work with.
I'll also caveat this by saying a tweet devoid of tone means we can all project whatever we want onto the speakers - the interviewer could easily have said the same words in a playful or arseholish way.
This kind of shit is why I hate job interviews. I would just sit there wondering wtf my favourite drink has to do with anything.
I'm generally not good at working out (especially on the spot) what it is that they're actually looking for. And I'm aware that working out that kind of thing is a relevant skill for a lot of jobs. It's just deeply frustrating that if you don't do well at it, you won't do well on the interview generally, even if you excel at everything else they're looking for.
Agreed. Maybe the issue really was not bringing a date, who knows, but if it's a job that requires some level of social skills, and LAOP was unable to socialise with people with whom he'd been working for the last however long, I can understand why they'd be concerned about his inability to interact with clients in the future.
Even with the bringing a date part of things, it was made pretty clear to the guy ahead of time that he needed to bring someone, of any gender. In that situation, you don't even need a real "date", you just need one friend or friendly acquaintance that's willing to do a favour for you.
"Single" is one thing, "zero social circle outside of work" is another. Even if it's a job with no client-facing part, you still have to interact with your coworkers. And I'd be concerned about things like burnout and mental health with an employee who has no support structure.
Yeah like if someone asked me (a happily married person) to go with them to something like this, I'd probably do it. Free food, chat up some people, no biggie. This guy doesn't know a single human being who might consider him a friend or do him a small favor, and that's very worrying.
Frankly he could have even asked the other grads if someone had a friend who wanted to be his date just for the night and have free food. There are many options.
First thing I thought of lol. The good old days of Sims 1, where you worked 7 days a week but had to find time to make (and keep) friends while also building up your skills. You'd call Bella Goth and she would tell you to fuck off, while your wife was burning the kitchen down and a burglar was sneaking up to steal your toilet.
You know about puppy mills, but consider friendship mills. It was truly a come to jesus moment for me when I realized the pro move is to create families of 8 for the sole purpose of being friends and maintaining friendship with my main Sim.
Whereas my sim cultivated a succession of freemason and fed them to the plant so they could live forever. With the business expansion you could have a sim join a secret society and if they became a freemason you got a lot of money so I would make a new neighbor, make them join the freemasons, then seduce them so they brought all their money when they moved in. Then you feed them to the plant and milked it and it added years to their lifespan. The piece de resistance was to paint their portrait and hang it in the long hall.
I feel like we're not getting the whole story here. OP moved pretty quickly from "manager said i lacked the necessary social skills" to "manager explicit said that if I had brought a date I would have got the promotion". But if he's truthful abount having no friends, I feel like there's a broader issue at play.
This is one I can see going both ways if you got more to the story, there definitely could be some old fashioned big companies in london who see failing to bring a date as reason to not promote. Whether this is illegal discrimination is probably a no considering they could have bought a friend of any gender.
However, I can also see the possibility that this is just OP being anti social and that is a contributing factor to not promoting them. They didn't say they didn't want to bring a date out of principle, they tried an found no one (not even a friend) to go with. That's pretty damming.
Funnily enough there was a thread on I think askuk yesterday about making small talk and sharing personal details like an engagement with colleagues. I replied to someone who worked for a big company in London that said something like "it's pointless getting on with people at work, everyone's secretly a back stabber, no one would care if you dropped dead tomorrow". This was explicitly about colleagues, not management.
I wonder if the OP brings those kind of antisocial vibes into the office.
Yeah, he said he doesn’t talk to his colleagues unless it’s about work, and doesn’t go for work drinks but will tutor people through a problem as long as it’s a technical one. Not interested in friendships.
If he's giving people the feeling that he doesn't care about them on any level except for what's required for work, that's a great reason not to promote him. Who wants to be supervised by a boss who literally doesn't give a crap about you? I don't expect my supervisors to be my best friends, but I do require basic surface-level pleasantry and I-recognize-you-as-a-fellow-human interaction. I'm not office furniture.
Yeah, managing people takes a different set of skills from managing the technical aspects of a project.
From my own experience, I'd rather work for someone who has only a basic grasp of the technical side of things but is skilled at managing people than work for someone who is outstanding technically but doesn't understand how to provide a supportive and constructive working environment for their employees or why that would matter.
I'm betting that the actual problem is that he's not quiet at all. He's probably very talkative and just doesn't know what kinds of things you shouldn't say if you want to make friends.
There are lots of totally friendless people out there. Far more than you'd think. There usually isn't some big dramatic reason for it, either. If you don't put active effort into building friendships, you won't have any, that's really it.
I don't think it's this guy's problem, but these days it's also entirely possible to have a bunch of close friends who aren't geographically close. A lot of the people I was close with at university moved interstate, and my job is a fully-international team where I don't work with anyone who's even on the same continent. Lots of folks in my life who'll absolutely show up for a Zoom hang or a D&D game or a catch-up while they're home for Christmas, I just drove three hours each way to see one of them who's just had a baby last week, but in this particular circumstance if two or three local folks already had something on that day I would also be pretty stuck to find someone to go with.
In a later response someone tried to tell him that the fact he doesn't want to have friends is probably his biggest issue with securing a romantic relationship. He responded that it wasn't legal advice, and he's also struck out trying to get a hookup/one night stand even though he pays for premium on the dating apps.
And he stated he has no interest hanging out with his coworkers or going out for drinks or any of that.
I'm getting a pretty clear picture of who LAUKOP is and what the problems are. I think he's very stubborn, and he won't listen to all the good advice he's getting about working on himself and his social issues in regards to his career and his romantic aspirations.
People keep telling him that socialization is important if he wants to advance in his career, and he needs to figure that out, but he's not listening. People are telling him he needs to have friendships and platonic relationships if he wants any hope of a romantic relationship or even getting laid, and he won't listen.
He wants to get the things he thinks he deserves for the reasons he thinks he should get them. Everyone keeps telling him the world doesn't work that way, but he doesn't want to listen and would rather whine about how unfair it is.
Either he wakes up in five or ten years and realizes that his life is shit, his career is shit, and he's blown a lot of great opportunities because he won't play the game, and he starts making actual changes and shows up to Linda in accounting's birthday party, buys girl scout cookies from his supervisor, and makes Swedish meatballs for the holiday pot luck lunch, or he gets radicalized online and starts screaming about how women won't date him because of his wrist size and the cock carousel and not because of his behavior and choices.
I have a sneaking suspicion that this promotion involves working directly with outside partners/clients and they needed to assess if OP could at least follow some sort of social instructions/cues.
One day there will be a prospective client dinner, and he’ll be told to bring a date. The table, in a very expensive private dining room, will be laid for 12 people, but he will show up without a date, be awkward about it, and the firm won’t get the client.
I wonder if the organization specializes in uppercrust super-wealthy clients who live in a world of rigid formalities. I'm not British and I don't know much about peerage, but it could be something like that.
Or even just more responsibility internally to take initiative in speaking with your coworkers so that your internal reports and projects actually show or do what your coworkers need without your boss having to sit in on every conversation to ask your questions for you.
Heck, above the most junior level of professional work you should have areas of expertise where your boss can't ask every question for you because you know more than she does.
Or it involves supervising people (or feeds into positions that supervise people) who will object to being treated with all the warmth and friendliness of someone operating the light switch. I need my boss to use basic manners.
I’ve seen this mentality several times around reddit. They don’t want to socialize with anyone from work, and believe everybody who does it is just kissing asses. Then they believe that they are being discriminated against when the ”ass-kissers” get ahead in their careers. The problem is, when given the opportunity, most people rather spend their time around people they like.
If you believe that you bring enough to the table that it should be enough socializing that you manage to say good morning cordially almost every day, then by all means do it. But you better hope that people around you can respect how carefully you have min-maxed your character for this rpg.
We had a former employee in my very small company who basically never spoke unless spoken to, never ate with us at company-sponsored lunches, nada. She was very good at her work, just super quiet. And you know what? We all loved her because she was responsive, smiled when you said hello, sat with us every other lunch even if she wouldn't eat, and answered questions without treating them like an interrogation. This woman was probably the pinnacle of "not socializing at work" but because she had Good Vibes, we accepted that she was Just Quiet and didn't mind.
You don't have to socialize at work to get ahead. You do have to be friendly, approachable, and act like your coworkers are fellow human beings worthy of your society.
Yeah. I worked with a girl with crippling shyness and anxiety. She literally never talked unless you asked her a direct question. But she was a nice, generally positive person. So we all got along with her.
I've seen this mindset around and in fairness I think sometimes people are talking about different kinds of jobs.
You can take a fairly anti-social tack in your minimum wage job where you're not trying to advance or anything. It can even be a good idea in some places, where you don't want to be sucked into drama (or cause drama).
On the other hand, if you're trying for a lifetime career, in an industry you intend to move around and up in, you have to network. You need to build rapport with colleagues, you need to know people in other units or areas.
I have to travel with my coworkers for days on end, antisocial people are a terrible burden in corporate worlds and then they get stuck and even more awful to be around.
Also small v big companies, corporate v casual. My company is small and casual. It's a handful of cool people and a couple people I don't care for but don't hate. We all work hard and closely and some socializing makes the stressful times easier to deal with. I socialize with my boss - we shoot the shit, go for drinks sometimes. We are not friends. But we like each other and more importantly, he likes me. Which gives me job security.
Yep. Wife got a new job with a large pay bump largely because she was friendly with her coworkers. Company approached one of her coworkers about applying for job, coworker said "No, that's not for me. But you know who would be GREAT at this..."
If she didn't have that relationship, she'd have never been aware of the position. Work relationships are important, and it's really frustrating that I am not that great at that sort of thing. But I at least understand the importance and try to play along.
I work with a lot of technical expert types, some of whom have no clue about the importance of constructive communication. They see all proposals for change as terrible ideas, including when the proposal is addressing a problem they complain incessantly about, which means I ignore half of what they tell me.
Whereas with other people, if they raise a concern I take it seriously and try to resolve it because I know if they say something is a problem, it's a problem.
Me too. I have always disliked socialising for work purposes, not because I dislike socialising but because I don’t like my professional and private lives to get too entwined, and also because work socialising - no matter how much I like my colleagues - requires being “on”. But in many industries it’s important not just for promotions but also to ensure the work environment is harmonious. It’s ridiculous to complain about not progressing or feeling isolated by colleagues if you’re not doing it.
I tell my kid all the time "people would rather work with someone who occasionally makes mistakes but is kind and had great manners, over someone who does perfect work but is an asshole." I've watched so many jolly polite people have chill careers over high achievers.
I have a coworker who is very good at the job, very smart, but does not understand that getting along with coworkers she doesn't like is important. This is her first job after years of academia. She's autistic and kind of sensitive, so she'll have emotional meltdowns in the supervisor's office. I actually like her a lot and she does have friends here, but I kind of had to find a way to gently tell her "hey, the supervisor's office isn't the school counselor, you can't keep going there to cry when you're upset with a coworker." She's sweet and I want her to keep working there but goddamn, in the corporate world being liked is almost as important as being competent.
I have a friend who has rejection sensitive dysphoria and I love them to pieces but dear GOD it's exhausting.
They understand it's a Them Issue, and don't tell me all the horrible thoughts that go through their head, but the constant need for validation gets very... wearing after a while.
Luckily, 90% I can just respond with a thumbs up emoji or something and that's all they need, lol.
But it can still get very tiring, especially if it's a day I'm struggling with my own mental health (which, luckily, does not include RSD).
One of my college professors used to say: "Being good at your job might get you hired the first time, but being great to work with will get you hired again and again."
I once explained that I'd be more willing to cover the shift of someone who had previously engaged in small talk with me than with a coworker who only ever said Hi, and I was called "a manipulative asshole who was forcing coworkers to talk to me". I have a pretty thick skin, so normally I don't care when people insult me online, but this one was so baffling I still think about it years later. Mostly because I wonder about the other commenters life and perspective on the world.
On recent twitter thread I mentioned how given two qualified candidates, who would you prefer to hire, one who is pleasant to work with or the one who is awkward to be around?
I was inundated with people going on and on about coworkers just blabbing non stop and not getting work done, etc. As if it's impossible for someone to be friendly and pleasant to work with without chatting endlessly and being completely unproductive.
And to them, the ass-kissers are always bad at their jobs and don't deserve it, but simply doing their job and going home should stick out enough to the boss for a raise.
I sympathize. If you have a social disability or the misfortune to end up in a workplace that doesn't like you, it can feel deeply unfair. But rare is the job where you truly don't have to be bothered with anyone else.
I’ve seen this happen so many times! In cases I’ve personally seen, some of the people who “don’t want to socialize with coworkers” are actively verbally hostile or refuse to communicate with their coworkers. Yeah, I can see why they get passed up for promotions, over people who can hold a conversation.
You don’t even need to hang out outside of work. You just need to be on respectful speaking terms. This is ESPECIALLY true if the job is client-facing. Generally, colleagues will assume you’re just as curt to clients as you are to them.
I’m an introvert and yeah, would be socializing if I didn’t have to, but it’s 100% a job expectation, especially if there’s any client-facing aspect.
Used to work with a guy who was one of those who didn't want to socialize and was actively hostile with coworkers. The thing was, he really thought he was being helpful when you asked him about something. His responses were so patronizing and he was so full of himself, nobody wanted to approach him. Think "Nick Burns, the company computer guy" skit from SNL.
There was an audible groan whenever someone realized there was no other option than to go ask him a question. He had no idea how much people actively avoided working with him. The only thing saving him was that he happened to be good at what he did in a field with limited people with that knowledge. Had he had a modicum of social skills, he could have gone much further.
I mean, there are people who get away with this, but they have to be bringing something a bit more exciting to the table than "usually in the top-performing 3 or 4 out of 12".
Yeah, i’ve worked with people who have been rather openly antagonistic towards their managers and coworkers when they happened to feel like it. But staying employed long enough to build a reputation of being like that is because they are extremely good at what they do. And i’m sure their managers have been looking for options.
Yes to all of this. I suspect LAOP doesn’t even realise the extent of how problematic his behaviour is because he lacks self awareness. If you’re not able to make friends at all or get a one night stand, then you are seriously putting people off.
He’s obsessed with it being about him not bringing a date, but I just think he’s completely missed the bigger picture, and he continues to refuse to see it. It will be about his interaction with people all through his time at the company whether internally or externally. This would have been the final straw. He may even have misunderstood what they meant about the party; in fact it may have been that he made other people uncomfortable and he’s just grabbed the lack of a date thing as the main issue because it’s tangible. I’d guarantee that if he had excellent social skills but didn’t bring a date the company would be unlikely to care. And you shouldn’t be awkward just because you don’t have a date. That goes more to social skills than it does the lack of a partner.
I must admit that LAOP set off some alarm bells for me in terms of his predisposition to possible radicalization on this front.
The truth is that even if LAUKOP had brought a date, it probably still would’ve been really awkward and they still wouldn’t have progressed because it’s NOT ABOUT THE DATE.
I've seen incels blaming the angle/tilt of their brow bone (like in their face) for why they don't have a girlfriend.
And then called all women vapid cunts for caring about the tilt of their brow bone more than what really matters (like them calling all women cunts, perhaps?)
I don't engage in small talk in the break room or go out for drinks with the team after work. I really can't stand that side of things.
This comment from LAOP sums it all up, I think. If he can't even ask about someone's weekend while they're both making coffee, he's going to really struggle in any job that involves interaction with people. And that's basically almost every job, unfortunately for him.
I'm annoyed at the "you deffo have the tism, bro" comments. So many autistic people (like me!) spend ungodly amounts of time studying human behavior in an attempt to fit in.
A clear instruction to bring someone to event? Thank God someone is giving me actionable directions!
Right! Yeah it's definitely about his social skills, but also the fact that they gave him very clear instructions that he did not follow. They looked this man in the eye and said "bring a date, any gender, bring a friend, bring someone, it's important that you bring someone and be social". I don't know how much clearer they needed to be. There's autistic and then there's whatever OOP has going on, which seems like some sort of disdain for any socialization that doesn't directly immediately benefit him.
As someone who is AFAB and autistic, I went to the NHS recommended autism support club when I was diagnosed and it was full of men just like this. I went once, it was awful. There is just a lack of interest in other people at a fundamental level for them and they only see it as something they have to do to get something that would benefit them. Each man talked to me only once and it was to determine if I was going to date him. All the men there were single, friendless, and mostly jobless too. All the issues that men have in our culture are doubled for them and they are at major risk of getting Tate-d.
Tbf, at least one seemed to come from an autistic person. But as someone frequently asked if they're autistic, it REALLY bothers me. Like, nah, this is the "NT meeting you where you're at" that people keep wanting. As far as I know anyway.
Everyone seems quick to jump on the autism diagnosis bandwagon, and I'm not saying he is or isn't, but everything about OP'S responses screams personality disorder to me. Specifically schizoid.
Okay yeah that's a really good point. I wasn't sure exactly how to describe his disdain for social interactions that don't immediately benefit him but schizoid personality disorder fits that well.
You're thinking of schizotypal, which includes magical thinking and delusions of reference.
ASPD symptoms include manipulative and callous traits, reckless disregard for laws or mores, aggression, and other behaviors that place them in frequent conflict with society.
Yeah, this isn't about not having a date. I'm guessing it was how awkward he was at the party. Having someone else there as a friend or a date usually helps people open up and relax a bit, and sometimes it does the opposite. But if he couldn't relax and be approachable and charming, I think that was the strike against him. [Not that he couldn't find someone to go with, I'm sure dates fall through and sometimes spouses are not available. Again I'm guessing he just had to be outgoing and professionally sociable, and miserably failed].
I wonder what kind of industry he is in that personality matters that much.
But everyone knows if there are two people being interviewed, and one is slightly better than the other, but the one that is slightly better is someone that you don't want to work with you're going to go with the other guy
I feel like we're not getting the whole story here.
I don't believe that post. Like, not a single word. It's either creative writing or AI. Maybe it's just that I'm jaded because Reddit is now mainly bots, but idk. Something just doesn't feel real. It's written too well, if that makes sense. There's just a little too much detail and the answers look like they were prepared just waiting for the question, and all of them add a little more to the story. Idk. It's probably just me.
I'm autistic and it reads autistic as balls to me. We give a little too much detail and I guarantee this guy has every angle covered (except the fact that getting on with other people is basically the most basic thing you need to get promoted).
This is going to sound rather silly, but I think I was denied advancement within my comapny because I failed to bring a date to a work social event. Is there any discrimination laws which apply here?
I've just finished a graduate scheme with a major company that operates out of London.
When this graduate scheme finishes the graduates will move up to the next band which has a very substantial salary increase. There are 12 of us in our cohort. I was one of the higher performers. Usually in top 3 or top 4.
Towards the end of the graduate scheme a big company social event was announced. Black-tie fancy event at an expensive place in London. Instructions were to bring a partner.
I tried to get out of this as I don't have a romantic partner. Never have. But I was told attendance was compulsory and I just needed to bring a date, it didn't matter who.
Separately, a week later, another manager took me aside and explained that if I wanted to bring a man along the company wouldn't mind - that they're very queer and LGBTQ+ friendly. I explained that it wasn't me.
On the night of the event I ended up attending alone as I couldn't find a date. It resulted in a lot of awkward conversations and time spent by myself. One of the most uncomfortable nights of my life.
We just got our results this morning and everyone except me has advanced to the next stage of the graduate program. I'm still stuck on my old rank.
I've had a chat with my boss and explained that my work was of a high quality. He responded that I lacked the necessary social skills to handle the next rank and that I should focus on that. I asked if this was about the comapny dinner/dance and he said that was a massive contributing factor.
Are there any employment laws which this company has broken by apparently linking a promotion to my ability to get a date for a company dinner/dance? I confirmed this in writing after the meeting.
The part that I found most interesting is the "look if you'd rather bring a gentleman friend that's cool too." The bosses were trying everything they could think of to get LAUKOP to engage.
I have been to events where my job was to smile, shake hands, and look cute in holiday attire for my SO. I knew my task and I executed it well. Soft skills are important.
They probably should also have specified that it could be a platonic friend. That wouldn't have helped OP, but they'd at least understand it wasn't the inability to get a date-date.
I think it's been removed now, but seeing his response to someone who shared an anecdote about attending two of these kinds of work functions with a friend (the boss apparently drunkenly said this person was "better than the last one" at the second event, and the LAOP asked why they didn't take that as a compliment) definitely makes me suspect the issue is bigger than him not having a date. 😂
Still though, I feel bad for the guy. People skills are important in just about every field, and I imagine it must be really difficult if you just don't get them
If the purpose of this was to test social skills, and OP has apparently none, he's not only going to suffer with clients, he might embarrass the company. I've a few friends in London firms and a lot of business is sealed with drinks down a bar on a thursday or friday afternoon. That's the reality of London firms that have black tie dinners.
Although it sounds like his job isn't client facing, so it must be internal networking where the issue lies. As bad as it sounds, if you lack the ability to even make a friend outside of work, it is a red flag that you can't navigate social situations well. And if you have things like project teams, well, you kind of need a decent amount of social skills to navigate them.
Either way, there's nothing discriminatory about what the company has done. The instruction was bring someone and they failed to do it, didn't even bother to come up with a passable white lie, then had awkward conversations at the dinner - presumably because they gave off the vibe they didn't want to be there.
If I'm guessing, its not client facing but I would imagine its "clients" as in other firms. Or he doesn't realise that even though there is a dedicated account manager he to is expected to speak to clients on occasion to as he gets up in rank.
My roles have never been described as client facing and client interaction has never been on the job spec. But when you're in a technical role, once a month of so its normal to be pulled in by the account manager to answer questions or whatever.
This is an excellent point. Most jobs that have zero client-interaction and zero internal liasoning are jobs where you are not important at all, thus no one needs to talk to you. As you go up the ladder and become a part of leadership, soft skills and social interaction become increasingly important. You're now an authority on your work and team, which in turn makes you a spokesperson.
Kinda but mostly accurate. As someone who worked up from engineering to engineering management, while a good engineering manager tries to insulate the individual contributor types from being randomly bothered by stakeholders/clients as much as possible, the bare fact is that you are never going to rise to management/architect/principal engineer levels unless you can have those conversations with stakeholders.
Yeah I'm not in a client facing role. But I unfortunately talk to clients all the time. A lot of times I need to get information directly from them so we're not playing a game of telephone.
It is MUCH better than being an account manager type, as I'm not expected to have that sales-y outgoing attitude, but I absolutely need to be good at small talk, communicating with clients, making them feel comfortable and not awkward, etc, even if I'm just hopping on 30 min zoom calls with them primarily.
i bet if he had, for example, a long distance gf, and explained that, that wouldn’t have been an issue. that would’ve been proof of at least some kind of social skills.
or they would’ve said to bring a friend and not a date date, which wouldn’t have been a problem for most people with a bare minimum of social skills…
I bet if he had been engaging with his colleagues, date or not, he wouldn't have been kept back.
He clearly was already under scrutiny so there's more to "fix" vibe wise than just bringing a date.
The "lot of awkward conversations" could be 12 seconds of slight awkward (if that) for someone socially competent.
Also, I am a gremlin who lacks some social skills and pretends more often than not to be normal, so I get it, it would be awkward and hard for me but I'd still pretend like hell if my job depended on it. (caveat that I do not have enough neurospicy to pretend to any diagnostic so if LAOP is on the spectrum I can't pretend to know what he goes through)
The fact they told him they could bring someone who wasn’t a girlfriend (and I still think that would include anyone) leads me to believe he was moaning about it in the weeks leading up to the event. Which would be worse than keeping quiet then not bringing someone.
Reading between the lines it sounds like OOP probably is a high performer as it sounds like his management really went out of their way to suggest non romantic or non hetero as accommodative options. Seems like if he weren’t a high performer they’d be less likely to try to help him in this way.
I feel sorry for the guy but ultimately if the organization is the type to host those kind of fancy dinners, I agree with responders that social interaction is probably an important characteristic of higher levels.
Given the extent to which OOP is engaging I don’t know that I agree with other responders here that people’s advice went beyond the scope. If he is ND in some way that could be an angle I guess but it also may suggest non compatibility with the higher roles.
Then going to the party and spending the whole evening moping in the corner? This isn't a high school prom. You can go to a party alone and still be sociable, strike up conversations with the other attendees, dance, drink, enjoy the food, count your blessings. Sure it can be tiring and not as fun without a buddy, but still more than doable - in fact it's even more of a social skill to be able to go to parties alone! As soon as the boss saw that LAUKOP couldn't even be social, despite being solo, it was over.
I am autistic, but AFAB and got to the age of 31 before diagnosis. When I joined where I work now, I was awkward but friendly, but what my foot properly in the door is that when the group BBQ happened, about 9 months after started, I went round and talked to people, introduced myself, asked who they were, did small talk stuff, and you bet it was noticed.
I gained a reputation for being friendly, approachable, and who could be trusted to talk to people I don't know without embarrassing myself or the company. Four years later, I'm trusted and have brilliant relationships with people. I am trusted to do my job without a lot of oversight as a result. It's nice.
I've said it many times before, I'll say it again: everyone needs a pragmatics course at some point. Like it should be a standard thing in education. Even if you're the johnny football guy with 100 social skills, this stuff still benefits
Just in the last few days there was the Master / PHD- LAOP and somebody had a very poignant post about following the unwritten / unspoken rules of Academia. I would say that it pretty much is the same case.
Your idea is spot on, like in intro to law classes do they come right out and say "hey by the way, you need to be a sociable person in this profession, even if you yourself will never be before a judge and jury, you need to be able to schmooze, not even clients, just your fellow peers, if you can't do that, you won't get very far"
True, but I was thinking even more basic than that. At least 90% of the Reddit posts that I see where social situations come up - be it AITA, etiquette, “what do I do/should I have done” type posts - could have been avoided with a very simple lesson in pragmatics. Body language, tone, when something is assumed information, presuppositions, “is it appropriate to do XYZ in ABC settings” and so on. They go over how to interview, table manners, “should you say this on a date.” They even teach you how to complain without being a Karen. Seriously.
I went to a private high school where everyone would have to take pragmatics, like as a regular high school class, for their freshman/sophomore year
All of these things can certainly tie into social skills in the kind of situation that LAOP was in
Most people just think they’re too good for this stuff, or they assume their kids are perfect and don’t need it, so they never actually teach them how to handle themselves in social situations
I've often joked that I should hire myself out as a non sexual escort to events.
I find most people to be genuinely interesting and can make conversation with almost anyone, I'm good at social cues, and can also sit quietly and have a meaningful conversation with someone.
I look good in a cocktail dress, but not so good that I'm out of anyone's league or people get jealous or weird. I love to dance, but again, not well enough to stand out, I have no dietary restrictions and can generally hold my alcohol.
I can be your friend, cousin, grad school classmate, lady from your book club or softball team, whatever.
I once had to deal with a coworker bringing his grandmother to a work party.
He'd RSVP'd for a plus one but his girlfriend was unexpectedly busy bombing the Middle East so he brought his Grandma. It was an excuse to take her out of the nursing home and she'd love getting dressed up and meeting his work friends, so why not?
Except that he introduced her to people as the lovely Gloria and expected other people to catch a hint.
I had a business class as part of my degree that, as a graded assignment, required you to make a list of 20 local people you could count on to help you with miscellaneous business favors/networking.
Yeah...I was homeschooled for high school, fled my home town once I got my GED, and was attending school in a different state. I didn't know anyone. And I was too traumatized to meet anyone just yet.
The teacher just didn't believe that I couldn't pull 20 people out of my ass. We got to the end of the course and she sat me down and was like "you will pass with a good grade once you turn in your 20 people. But you will not pass unless you do that." And it took me tearing up and saying there was nothing I could do, and asking if that requirement could be waived when I retook the class, for her to pass me without it.
But she couldn't just say I didn't need it. She took the paper and filled it out with people she knew.
I also wouldn't be able to fill that out. I grew up in a vhcol area so all my friends and I scattered to the winds when we graduated. Now all my anecdotes about my friends are like "yeah Katherine was saying she had to skip laundry yesterday because a bear was chilling outside the laundry room door, just Alaska things I guess lol". I have a dozen ish contacts in my current job but its a small company and my outside work social effort is spent on my buddies in Thailand and Georgia and places.
The way she went about it wasn't great (20 is a lot, and I'm social as hell and bartended for a decade, I know a lot of people) but the lesson she was trying to teach was unfortunately important. Doesn't matter if it's fair or not, or even if the people are actually close enough to do you a favor. Having a social circle and being well known is crucial for any business. Hell, even bartending, I got almost all of my jobs by knowing people, and when I got my girlfriend a job, I was disappointed that she didn't bother to make the same kinds of connections. I kept having to use my connections to get her jobs.
The 20 people sounds very much like the people at companies like Northwestern Mutual who get all your contacts to then try and get you to hit them up for money.
Sure are a lot of people in that thread who don't understand that "escort" is not always a euphemism for "sex worker". It is an actual real job that specializes in exactly this situation.
Anyway... this probably isn't workplace discrimination on the basis of marital status, but it's close enough to it that I'd be worried if I were this company's HR manager.
I imagine as long as they're being paid they're happy to do either type of job. Perhaps happier yet when the work involves good food, free drinks, no need to get changed, and a taxi home
I think if you’re self aware enough to ask that, and understand why being seen like OOP is a bad thing, you’re probably fine.
There’s nothing wrong with being the quiet person in an office, as long as you’re friendly with it. A quick nod or smile if you make eye contact or something.
This feels like something out of the Victorian era. "This guttersnipe arrived at the cotillion solus, if you can believe it. He could probably barely scrape together the wherewithal to attend in proper black tie. He frankly would have ruined the quadrille, and we shan't be keeping him at the firm if this keeps up, no matter his numbers"
Maybe I just am too far removed from that world, but my mind staggers picturing any manager I've ever had just openly admitting that "didn't bring date to party" was the reason I'm being denied a promotion
OOP is actually very careful when discussing that. He alludes to it a lot by making it clear that he believes it was the case, stating that his boss cited his lack of social skills, and that he has "it" in writing. Even when pressed, OOP refuses to outright state "Boss said if I brought a date/friend/escort I'd have been promoted."
His goal is to convince Reddit that he is in the right. Misleading to get a more positive response (but not outright lying- then it doesn't count) is common here.
he seems to not have connected at all with any coworkers or shown any proof of being able to handle social situations, so this seems more like them trying to see if maybe he’s just not extroverted at work, but does actually have some social skills by having anyone (partner, friend, acquaintance, whatever) in his life.
I have a question. Say I was in this situation, but my actual, long term partner was unavailable. What do you do then? Would I have to have a conversation with my partner along the lines of "I have to take a date but you are working away in Italy that week so I have to find someone else to be my date"?
Would my work find it weird if they knew I already had a partner and brought someone else instead? Would I just have to bring a random friend and explain the situation?
Poor fucker. I think the repeated encouragement to bring someone, anyone, a friend, male or female - was actually a pretty big hint that “look, we already have you pegged as a weirdo and a loner with no social skills and you really need to prove us wrong, and this event is your one big shot at it”.
Except that LAUKOP is too neurodivergent to take a hint.
I had a similar situation at a previous job and decided to bring my best friend because I knew that she had a black tie dress that she could wear.
My neurodivergent ass did not understand that bringing my best female friend would have implications, so instead of being considered the weirdo with no social skills I was then seen as a lesbian with anxiety about coming out to people. Insisting that we were 'just best friends' did not help 😅
Word for word this is what happened to me at my first staff xmas party. I didn’t protest too much - I think after the second person asked (months later) how my “girlfriend” was doing, I just started responding that she was doing well. It seemed too complicated to explain that I invited her because she was my best friend and I felt safer navigating new and unfamiliar social situations with her.
I'm asexual and neuro divergent. I would totally bring my best friend and no one would ever believe me 😅
It doesn't help I look like a butch lesbian. The first person I came out to as ace said "I'd always assumed you were a lesbian."
I spent years in the closet and it's not the one everyone thought I was in!
but are you gay ace or straight ace???
that is far.
"We are afraid you might have a closet full of corpses wrapped in cling film, please bring anyone alive to assure us you're not actually a serial killer."
LAUKOP turns up with a woman.
"Blink twice if you feel unsafe."
It also sounds like LAUKOP made a huge deal of not wanting to bring a partner which is… odd. I also don’t date and have never dated, so I sympathize. But the way to deal with this is show up alone and pretend that your date got last minute food poisoning, not make such a big deal about it that your manager pulls you aside about it.
Reading between the lines, it looks like OP responded badly to being asked about his partner at an event.
She's still in Canada.
Or just bring a friend! Or their sister! Anyone!
They never mentioned if they had family, but in a few of their comments they said they don’t have friends and don’t really “get” hanging out with people, which I think is the real root of the problem
They eventually get into a tirade about how they've been on dating apps since 19 even trying for "hookups", "paying for premium" and have gotten nowhere. They give a pretty classic image of someone who doesnt realize just how bad with people they really are.
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Have you considered hiring a social coach? I'm serious. Some people just need to have social skills explicitly taught to them. There are people who do that. Politicians and executives do it, why not you?
It took me well into my 30s to develop real social skills. I managed with therapy, but I know people more awkward than me who have needed more help. Just give it a chance.
I've never heard of that before...do psychologists/therapists not do the same thing?
They're more for addressing the potential root of why you might feel the way you feel. Sometimes it's just how you are, other times it's a learned fear, either way it's led to a stagnation of learning the soft skills.
Social coaches might have a little overlap but they are definitely more focused on directly teaching the skills. Here's how to answer questions, how to small talk, how to make someone not think you're bizarre at surface level conversation. The stuff that might come naturally to some but for others is fully opaque.
I mean, they can help, definitely. But the focus is more on looking inward than on refining the outward. Ideally, someone like LAOP should do both.
I can picture my husband having this issue if it weren't for me, but he'd probably invite his mum or one of his stepsiblings. He's autistic and extremely introverted. (I'm less so, but not by much.) He can step up and manage in social situations, he's actually really charming and everyone likes him, he just finds being around people exhausting.
Even my most awkward friend (think Confederacy of Dunces level) could count on his sister as a plus one. Or me, I'd do it for him. (He's very difficult, but I have a soft spot for him and he's absolutely brilliant, he just has no idea how to interact with others, and it did in fact destroy his career.)
But in all seriousness, an escort would have been the perfect solution, and a proper one (one who isn't solely a thinly veiled sex worker) will be used to acting as a plus one at posh business events. She could even coach him on his own social skills. Escorts get this kind of gig all the time.
I think the OOP really needs to hire a social coach if they want their career to progress. Such people do exist, and many ambitious people use those services, especially executives and politicians. Either that of he should talk to his boss about mentoring.
If it’s worth 15k a year to OP I’d have booked a train down and gone with them myself for 1k.
I'd have done it for the free food and opportunity to wear my new dress.
Though OP would probably end up posting "Didn't get a promotion because my fake trans gf got drunk and hogged all the hors d'oeuves."
LMFAO, can you come to my holiday party next time?
Business idea: Trained actors that people hire for parties specifically to cause a scene and make a good story/gossip. People bond very well over retelling those things.
My friend hired a wedding singer whose shtick is to start acting like there's some drama then whip out a mic and sing. At his, the singer came in like a deliveroo driver and addressed this guy who's a picky eater, the groom (who hired him) stood up and shouted 'really?! You didn't like the options I spent hours picking out!!'. Everyone was excited and murmuring and the laughter was immense when it was clearly a set-up
There's a book with this premise, Five Star Stranger
Listen, you better share them with me. Also, drunk karaoke after?
Felt.
I was gonna say, even if you don't have a friend available (I can sympathize there, lost contact with most of my friends and the ones I do have are scattered about - it's not straightforward to get them to come to an event like this), but what I do have is siblings and cousins I can invite.
Or, failing that, pull a sickie a couple of days before and tell everyone you have terrible diarrhea.
I think the problem with the last is that this feels like it was a social test: could he come and do the social interactions enough that they felt comfortable moving him up. He has the mental game, does he have the social?
If he had not attended, same result - no promotion.
I'm imagining that for anyone else they'd be willing to overlook this - the other candidates have demonstrated their ability to socialize or have built enough cachet that they'd get the benefit of the doubt if they showed up alone or not at all. That for this to be the deciding factor means OP's reputation isn't great already.
Or an escort… I know the title of this post is mostly a joke, but that would have solved the issue to some degree.
Yes. The irony of the title is that doing that probably would have saved OP. There are escorts who specialise in this, and one of them likely would also have known how to make LAOP look good and like he has social skills.
Right?
Hell, there was a pretty famous BORU about a ND dude who had accepted he wouldn't ever be in a relationship so he just hired escorts for functions. One of them ended up liking him and they ended up doing just friends(Cars & Coffee, etc.) stuff until she basically hit him over the head that she was interested in him.
Do you have the link to that post?
https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/xrfvsn/rrelationship_advice_hired_an_escort_once_but_we/
Thank you so much for linking it.
De nader
Are there, though? I know that’s the received wisdom but really the older I get, the less likely I think it is that there are all that many or would be easy to find.
There are. I know some.
But you can ring any high end escort agency, explain the situation and they’ll send you an escort for this type of thing. There are plenty of regular high end sex workers who will do a function without the intimate part at the end. You can pretty much book a sex worker for whatever you want. You don’t have to engage in the sexual services.
Wait... You're telling me I didn't have to hire a whole company to do my driveway but I could have hired an escort instead? Sheesh!
They claim to be friendless... maybe they also don't have any family. Poor sod.
I think that's even a step too far. They just wanted him to be relaxed and sociable, and people often find it easier to do that in situations where there are others present that aren't part of the business [aka, having a date or a friend there]. He just sounds like he wasn't able to stop feeling miserable and awkward, and he projected that very clearly to everyone around him
I think too many commenters are taking LAOP's read of the situation too literally. He thinks he is disliked because he didn't bring a date. I sincerely doubt that was the source of his issue with management, his asocialness is, the lack of a date just added to the fire.
Yeah, it reads like they were gently warning him, but he completely missed it.
Exactly. And I think there's also the factor of "we gave you explicit instructions with tons of leeway, and you didn't follow them". Sure it's not instructions directly related to his job, but they told him to not come alone, that the +1 is mandatory, bring anyone, and he didn't. I feel bad for the guy, but if he can't understand that friends & socializing are important after five years of therapy, then I don't know what's going to get through to him.
I bet the real issue lies in there, somewhere, not in his inability to bring a date to the event. Our hero could have styled it out but he doesn't sound like a styler-outer unfortunately.
In a later comment OP mentions not really wanting to hire someone to accompany them as then they could not spend time on their phone or spend more time on bathroom breaks like they do when they go by themselves.
I mean they don't have to hire someone but they are delusional if they think management didn't take notice of their actions.
Reading all of LAOP’s comments, I got the distinct impression that he behaved pretty problematically at the event - making conversations awkward, not engaging, being on his phone and disappearing. I think the issue goes well beyond not having a date. I don’t think LAOP understands the extent of his social issues, or that the work event was work, not just a hand out.
So, wait. In addition to not bringing a date, he spent a significant portion of the event either hiding in the bathroom or scrolling on his phone? I think that's the bigger problem than the lack of a date.
Part of me also thinks that even if he had brought an obvious prostitute, he would have gotten some pity points for problem solving at least, rather than simply showing up and spending his whole night on his phone and in the bathroom.
Could have been a story, at least.
yeah...thats a problem. he was an event that socialization was clearly the point and he failed. It went beyond not having a date.
I think that they took him aside and told him that it was OK if he brought a same-sex date is a bit telling. There is something in his social behavior that is making him awkward, and they were trying to pin it down and help him out. Being sociable and approachable in the office or at the event, he'd probably have been fine without a date, but they probably knew that he'd be awkward at the event and figured "if he can at least find SOMEONE to come, there's hope for him". Not being able to do so was just the straw that broke the camel's back.
If that's the case, I feel bad for him. He might do the technical aspects of his job well, but when you get higher up, there are soft skills that are going to be needed, and it can be really hard for people to judge that fairly or grasp that they are being tested and what the parameters for the test are.
ETA: After reading more of that thread, I'm pretty confident the above is what happened. He looks to have undiagnosed autism and can't grasp social behaviors and why they would be important. There was a recent twitter thread about a an interview where someone failed an interview because they were asked what their favorite drink was and they said "water" and nothing else despite being prompted by the interviewer. A lot of people didn't seem to understand why the question was asked and why the given response was bad. I'm fairly bad at social stuff, especially with people I do not know well. But I at least recognize why it's important to go through the motions and at least try.
When he said
it made me realize the guy can't even realize his lack of soft skills is what's holding him back. They don't want someone quiet who will sit in the corner and do their work very well. They want someone who will be a team player, even if it's awkward. They clearly like the guy. They're giving him every chance they can. But dude doesn't even realize what's holding him back. They wanted him to bring someone so they can at least see there's a base they can work on and improve. Get the guy to be at least a little social.
Guy doesn't even realize that even a one night stand needs to have some level of compatibility. Yeah, you don't need to be friends, but women aren't gonna hook up with a guy unless they feel some form of connection and that he seems like a fun guy. I'm almost curious what he says when he's trying to hook up.
Plus, “I can’t even get a one night stand!” is more or less backwards. Way more men than women are looking for one night stands—partly because for a lot of women, getting off with a brand new partner is very far from a guarantee, so why would you bother? So the ratio of men looking for one night stand with a woman is much higher than women looking for a one night stand with a man. There’s a lot of competition there. Women and men looking for relationships is far more balanced and therefore your odds are better.
Just because you get to the actual sex quicker in a one night stand doesn’t mean they’re any faster or easier to achieve overall.
I don't want to call it a trend, because I don't know if that's accurate, but there's been a number of videos on social media lately that I've seen where women chronicle them waiting for men to follow-up about dates. I watched one this morning, as example, where the man asked her on a date, she provided her availability for the date, and then waited for an entire week for him to respond, and got nothing. Inevitably, the comments are always full of men saying things like, 'well why didn't you follow-up?' or otherwise making excuses for why they also do this.
Obviously I don't know LAOP, but based on his comments, he strikes me as similar. He seems to be lacking the awareness that socialisation - whether it be for work or for romantic reasons - is a two day street that requires some input from him. He seems to not get that people aren't going to chase you for social interactions, if you don't seem interested, they're not going to bother.
This brings me flashbacks. Holyshit. I quit the apps over 2-3 years ago, and have been in a relationship for less than a year, but forgot about that aspect of dating apps.
I would chat with random guys on the apps, as it goes, and then sometimes the guy would say, "I hate chatting online, I would rather meet in person." And if they didn't seem really shady about that, I'd go along and say sure! Let's just meet. Sometimes I had a weeks long texting period with someone until we both wanted to meet up. Other times, I would be chatting with someone and I'd say, "I think it would be really fun to meet up!" No matter the start of it, often it would end the same way.
I would respond to the date-ask or initiate the meet up by saying, "I think it would be fun to meet up somewhere in the middle of our locations. I have a few favorite spots, but let me know if you have a different preference". And then follow up with, "I think ____ cafe is really chill and has a beautiful outdoor area for chatting, if you wanna grab a beer ____ is nearby too, or if you want to grab lunch we can do that at ____ and walk around - this trail nearby at ____ is really pretty".
And then they would say, "cool!" No preference to what they wanted to do, or what day and when. I would realize I initiated the plan, and they probably figured I wanted to take over, so I would say, "let me know which one sounds fun, and what day/time works for you, and it's a date!"
But would mostly get back, "whenever you want is cool :)".
After that, I started to find it SO unattractive if a guy was the one to insist on meeting up, but put 0 effort into planning where/when. Or, if they wanted to meet me after I asked if they wanted to hang out, and then suddenly the conversation became one-sided when it came to me being the one planning their driving route, or bus, or BART trip.
It's fucking exhausting to be asked out and be like, "ok, here some ideas about what to do", and get agreement, but also crickets.
I completely forgot about how annoying that was until your comment reminded me.
edit: I really should clarify, if I asked them out it was far less annoying. Because I was asking them out. But, often guys would insist on meeting up - but give ZERO effort into planning when or where. That's when I started giving a standard list of options. It was apparent they just wanted to see me in person and didn't give a shit about making the date fun for both of us, and it was a big reason why I stopped having fun even flirting on the apps with guys - it inevitably became a chore.
That to me is a huge red flag that I'll be expected to do all the work in the relationship, and I am never doing THAT again.
Absolutely, and I think that's part of the whole trend. It's the same as when women show screenshots of conversations where they're asking questions and the men are just responding with one word answers. If you can't even put in the effort of the dating stage, that's a solid indicator that you won't put any effort into the actual relationship.
Not one single date in 8 or so years of trying says he sounds like a serial killer when he's trying to hook up.
[removed]
(This is not a suggestion, I’m sure you’re tired of hearing them.)
So erm, I had a mate like that. I knew him afterwards of course.
He went to Amsterdam and met a lady. Of the night. And instead of sleeping with her he asked for her help in clocking his problem.
Women in that profession have incredibly finely honed “red flag radars” so she was able to get him started with a few things.
He’s never told me what it was (and I respect his privacy and don’t ask) except to say that whatever it was made people feel something was off but they couldn’t put their fingers on it.
I absolutely, unironically, love this advice. And it's the most useful advice I've heard for this kind of issue. Dear God I wish sex work were legal in more places.
My partner did a very similar thing but to lose his virginity as he felt he was a bit behind the curve on the timing of that. He had sex with her and then afterwards she said very gently “you know, if you want, I can introduce you to my brother” (who I guess also worked in the sex trade)…and that’s how my partner found out he was queer lol.
I would be DEAD
It’s another great example of how sex workers can be so well positioned (especially if they have a sibling of the opposite sex who is also a sex worker LOL) to give very specific and useful kinds of advice / suggestions that you just can’t get almost anywhere else.
And you better believe every time I think about that story, I giggle. It’s amazing how many different paths we take in figuring out how to have the relationships we want.
I have a philosopher friend who was raised JW but in high school sort of philosopher-logicked himself into realizing he was bisexual. He said he asked himself what the difference between having sex with a man vs a woman was, for him. And realized that for him there wasn’t a difference. Ergo, he is bisexual.
Absolutely bananas.
Where it isn't legal, escorts still often are, and they can most likely serve this purpose as well, as they go through all the same things (albeit with more legal cover to fall back on if things go south).
Before LAOP's account was nuked from orbit, my observation was he viewed social relationships in a very... transactional way. And even if he didn't, that's how it expressed.
People, and particularly potential partners, don't really want to be seen as transactions even if there is a component to that in any relationship (e.g. I can pick you up from the airport on Fri but I have that big meeting later on, can you make our dinner reservations?). You do things with/for someone because you want them to be happy, not because you expect a tit-for-tat reciprocity.
You can get taken advantage of in a relationship where you are doing all the giving, but in a healthy relationship there isn't a score that's being kept. Needs and wants are met because you want each other to be happy, not because you expect certain behaviors in return.
I wonder if they would have accepted bringing a coworker, like the last two kids in class that didn't have a project/study partner.
Okay, you are totally right about 99% of that. But water is legitimately delicious.
Oh there's nothing wrong with water. The problem is answering "water", which most people would find a sorta uninteresting answer, without any sort of follow up and conversation. i.e. "Yeah, water is a bit boring but I just find it the most refreshing thing - though sometimes a nice cup of tea really hits the spot. What about you?"
Oh completely agree. You can have "boring" answers to those kinds of questions, but you have to be willing to commit to them enough to establish a bit of personality and/or make it clear you're not just refusing to think about the question.
I saw the original post, and TBH they could have substituted any answer and had the exact same problem.
"What's your favourite drink?"
"Tea."
With the wrong inflection and no follow up (or a generally negative reaction to the follow up) I can see this being a conversational roadblock. One person is trying to invite discussion, the other isn't following them.
I have some sympathy, but you've gotta know what game is being played. This is a conversation, not a quiz and you need to give people something to work with.
I'll also caveat this by saying a tweet devoid of tone means we can all project whatever we want onto the speakers - the interviewer could easily have said the same words in a playful or arseholish way.
This kind of shit is why I hate job interviews. I would just sit there wondering wtf my favourite drink has to do with anything.
I'm generally not good at working out (especially on the spot) what it is that they're actually looking for. And I'm aware that working out that kind of thing is a relevant skill for a lot of jobs. It's just deeply frustrating that if you don't do well at it, you won't do well on the interview generally, even if you excel at everything else they're looking for.
Agreed. Maybe the issue really was not bringing a date, who knows, but if it's a job that requires some level of social skills, and LAOP was unable to socialise with people with whom he'd been working for the last however long, I can understand why they'd be concerned about his inability to interact with clients in the future.
Even with the bringing a date part of things, it was made pretty clear to the guy ahead of time that he needed to bring someone, of any gender. In that situation, you don't even need a real "date", you just need one friend or friendly acquaintance that's willing to do a favour for you.
"Single" is one thing, "zero social circle outside of work" is another. Even if it's a job with no client-facing part, you still have to interact with your coworkers. And I'd be concerned about things like burnout and mental health with an employee who has no support structure.
Yeah like if someone asked me (a happily married person) to go with them to something like this, I'd probably do it. Free food, chat up some people, no biggie. This guy doesn't know a single human being who might consider him a friend or do him a small favor, and that's very worrying.
Frankly he could have even asked the other grads if someone had a friend who wanted to be his date just for the night and have free food. There are many options.
i'll be using that going forward thanks
Has he not played The Sims? Everybody knows you need friends to get a promotion.
First thing I thought of lol. The good old days of Sims 1, where you worked 7 days a week but had to find time to make (and keep) friends while also building up your skills. You'd call Bella Goth and she would tell you to fuck off, while your wife was burning the kitchen down and a burglar was sneaking up to steal your toilet.
You know about puppy mills, but consider friendship mills. It was truly a come to jesus moment for me when I realized the pro move is to create families of 8 for the sole purpose of being friends and maintaining friendship with my main Sim.
Whereas my sim cultivated a succession of freemason and fed them to the plant so they could live forever. With the business expansion you could have a sim join a secret society and if they became a freemason you got a lot of money so I would make a new neighbor, make them join the freemasons, then seduce them so they brought all their money when they moved in. Then you feed them to the plant and milked it and it added years to their lifespan. The piece de resistance was to paint their portrait and hang it in the long hall.
Then you make another freemason.
i think this is how scientology works
I figured “Fuck it, why should my sim have a more boring life than me?”
I just had a designated houseperson/gossip merchant.
I feel like we're not getting the whole story here. OP moved pretty quickly from "manager said i lacked the necessary social skills" to "manager explicit said that if I had brought a date I would have got the promotion". But if he's truthful abount having no friends, I feel like there's a broader issue at play.
This is one I can see going both ways if you got more to the story, there definitely could be some old fashioned big companies in london who see failing to bring a date as reason to not promote. Whether this is illegal discrimination is probably a no considering they could have bought a friend of any gender.
However, I can also see the possibility that this is just OP being anti social and that is a contributing factor to not promoting them. They didn't say they didn't want to bring a date out of principle, they tried an found no one (not even a friend) to go with. That's pretty damming.
Funnily enough there was a thread on I think askuk yesterday about making small talk and sharing personal details like an engagement with colleagues. I replied to someone who worked for a big company in London that said something like "it's pointless getting on with people at work, everyone's secretly a back stabber, no one would care if you dropped dead tomorrow". This was explicitly about colleagues, not management.
I wonder if the OP brings those kind of antisocial vibes into the office.
Yeah, he said he doesn’t talk to his colleagues unless it’s about work, and doesn’t go for work drinks but will tutor people through a problem as long as it’s a technical one. Not interested in friendships.
I think it’s beyond just “too quiet”.
If he's giving people the feeling that he doesn't care about them on any level except for what's required for work, that's a great reason not to promote him. Who wants to be supervised by a boss who literally doesn't give a crap about you? I don't expect my supervisors to be my best friends, but I do require basic surface-level pleasantry and I-recognize-you-as-a-fellow-human interaction. I'm not office furniture.
Yeah, managing people takes a different set of skills from managing the technical aspects of a project.
From my own experience, I'd rather work for someone who has only a basic grasp of the technical side of things but is skilled at managing people than work for someone who is outstanding technically but doesn't understand how to provide a supportive and constructive working environment for their employees or why that would matter.
I'm betting that the actual problem is that he's not quiet at all. He's probably very talkative and just doesn't know what kinds of things you shouldn't say if you want to make friends.
There are lots of totally friendless people out there. Far more than you'd think. There usually isn't some big dramatic reason for it, either. If you don't put active effort into building friendships, you won't have any, that's really it.
I don't think it's this guy's problem, but these days it's also entirely possible to have a bunch of close friends who aren't geographically close. A lot of the people I was close with at university moved interstate, and my job is a fully-international team where I don't work with anyone who's even on the same continent. Lots of folks in my life who'll absolutely show up for a Zoom hang or a D&D game or a catch-up while they're home for Christmas, I just drove three hours each way to see one of them who's just had a baby last week, but in this particular circumstance if two or three local folks already had something on that day I would also be pretty stuck to find someone to go with.
Very true, yeah. It's easier to end up with a geographically dispersed friend group like that, when that wasn't as much of a thing just 30 years ago.
In a later response someone tried to tell him that the fact he doesn't want to have friends is probably his biggest issue with securing a romantic relationship. He responded that it wasn't legal advice, and he's also struck out trying to get a hookup/one night stand even though he pays for premium on the dating apps.
And he stated he has no interest hanging out with his coworkers or going out for drinks or any of that.
I'm getting a pretty clear picture of who LAUKOP is and what the problems are. I think he's very stubborn, and he won't listen to all the good advice he's getting about working on himself and his social issues in regards to his career and his romantic aspirations.
People keep telling him that socialization is important if he wants to advance in his career, and he needs to figure that out, but he's not listening. People are telling him he needs to have friendships and platonic relationships if he wants any hope of a romantic relationship or even getting laid, and he won't listen.
He wants to get the things he thinks he deserves for the reasons he thinks he should get them. Everyone keeps telling him the world doesn't work that way, but he doesn't want to listen and would rather whine about how unfair it is.
Either he wakes up in five or ten years and realizes that his life is shit, his career is shit, and he's blown a lot of great opportunities because he won't play the game, and he starts making actual changes and shows up to Linda in accounting's birthday party, buys girl scout cookies from his supervisor, and makes Swedish meatballs for the holiday pot luck lunch, or he gets radicalized online and starts screaming about how women won't date him because of his wrist size and the cock carousel and not because of his behavior and choices.
I have a sneaking suspicion that this promotion involves working directly with outside partners/clients and they needed to assess if OP could at least follow some sort of social instructions/cues.
One day there will be a prospective client dinner, and he’ll be told to bring a date. The table, in a very expensive private dining room, will be laid for 12 people, but he will show up without a date, be awkward about it, and the firm won’t get the client.
To be fair, if I was that client it wouldn't be the dateless employee who made me walk.
If the firm couldn't organise a dinner without booking a seat for a non-existent +1, I'm left asking what else they can't organise correctly.
I wonder if the organization specializes in uppercrust super-wealthy clients who live in a world of rigid formalities. I'm not British and I don't know much about peerage, but it could be something like that.
Upper crust, probably not specifically.
London, major company, graduate scheme, black tie company social? Good chance it's a a big finance firm.
Or even just more responsibility internally to take initiative in speaking with your coworkers so that your internal reports and projects actually show or do what your coworkers need without your boss having to sit in on every conversation to ask your questions for you.
Heck, above the most junior level of professional work you should have areas of expertise where your boss can't ask every question for you because you know more than she does.
Or it involves supervising people (or feeds into positions that supervise people) who will object to being treated with all the warmth and friendliness of someone operating the light switch. I need my boss to use basic manners.
I’ve seen this mentality several times around reddit. They don’t want to socialize with anyone from work, and believe everybody who does it is just kissing asses. Then they believe that they are being discriminated against when the ”ass-kissers” get ahead in their careers. The problem is, when given the opportunity, most people rather spend their time around people they like.
If you believe that you bring enough to the table that it should be enough socializing that you manage to say good morning cordially almost every day, then by all means do it. But you better hope that people around you can respect how carefully you have min-maxed your character for this rpg.
We had a former employee in my very small company who basically never spoke unless spoken to, never ate with us at company-sponsored lunches, nada. She was very good at her work, just super quiet. And you know what? We all loved her because she was responsive, smiled when you said hello, sat with us every other lunch even if she wouldn't eat, and answered questions without treating them like an interrogation. This woman was probably the pinnacle of "not socializing at work" but because she had Good Vibes, we accepted that she was Just Quiet and didn't mind.
You don't have to socialize at work to get ahead. You do have to be friendly, approachable, and act like your coworkers are fellow human beings worthy of your society.
Yeah. I worked with a girl with crippling shyness and anxiety. She literally never talked unless you asked her a direct question. But she was a nice, generally positive person. So we all got along with her.
Good manners get you so far!
I've seen this mindset around and in fairness I think sometimes people are talking about different kinds of jobs.
You can take a fairly anti-social tack in your minimum wage job where you're not trying to advance or anything. It can even be a good idea in some places, where you don't want to be sucked into drama (or cause drama).
On the other hand, if you're trying for a lifetime career, in an industry you intend to move around and up in, you have to network. You need to build rapport with colleagues, you need to know people in other units or areas.
I have to travel with my coworkers for days on end, antisocial people are a terrible burden in corporate worlds and then they get stuck and even more awful to be around.
Also small v big companies, corporate v casual. My company is small and casual. It's a handful of cool people and a couple people I don't care for but don't hate. We all work hard and closely and some socializing makes the stressful times easier to deal with. I socialize with my boss - we shoot the shit, go for drinks sometimes. We are not friends. But we like each other and more importantly, he likes me. Which gives me job security.
Yep. Wife got a new job with a large pay bump largely because she was friendly with her coworkers. Company approached one of her coworkers about applying for job, coworker said "No, that's not for me. But you know who would be GREAT at this..."
If she didn't have that relationship, she'd have never been aware of the position. Work relationships are important, and it's really frustrating that I am not that great at that sort of thing. But I at least understand the importance and try to play along.
I work with a lot of technical expert types, some of whom have no clue about the importance of constructive communication. They see all proposals for change as terrible ideas, including when the proposal is addressing a problem they complain incessantly about, which means I ignore half of what they tell me.
Whereas with other people, if they raise a concern I take it seriously and try to resolve it because I know if they say something is a problem, it's a problem.
Me too. I have always disliked socialising for work purposes, not because I dislike socialising but because I don’t like my professional and private lives to get too entwined, and also because work socialising - no matter how much I like my colleagues - requires being “on”. But in many industries it’s important not just for promotions but also to ensure the work environment is harmonious. It’s ridiculous to complain about not progressing or feeling isolated by colleagues if you’re not doing it.
I tell my kid all the time "people would rather work with someone who occasionally makes mistakes but is kind and had great manners, over someone who does perfect work but is an asshole." I've watched so many jolly polite people have chill careers over high achievers.
I have a coworker who is very good at the job, very smart, but does not understand that getting along with coworkers she doesn't like is important. This is her first job after years of academia. She's autistic and kind of sensitive, so she'll have emotional meltdowns in the supervisor's office. I actually like her a lot and she does have friends here, but I kind of had to find a way to gently tell her "hey, the supervisor's office isn't the school counselor, you can't keep going there to cry when you're upset with a coworker." She's sweet and I want her to keep working there but goddamn, in the corporate world being liked is almost as important as being competent.
I have a friend who has rejection sensitive dysphoria and I love them to pieces but dear GOD it's exhausting.
They understand it's a Them Issue, and don't tell me all the horrible thoughts that go through their head, but the constant need for validation gets very... wearing after a while.
Luckily, 90% I can just respond with a thumbs up emoji or something and that's all they need, lol.
But it can still get very tiring, especially if it's a day I'm struggling with my own mental health (which, luckily, does not include RSD).
One of my college professors used to say: "Being good at your job might get you hired the first time, but being great to work with will get you hired again and again."
I once explained that I'd be more willing to cover the shift of someone who had previously engaged in small talk with me than with a coworker who only ever said Hi, and I was called "a manipulative asshole who was forcing coworkers to talk to me". I have a pretty thick skin, so normally I don't care when people insult me online, but this one was so baffling I still think about it years later. Mostly because I wonder about the other commenters life and perspective on the world.
On recent twitter thread I mentioned how given two qualified candidates, who would you prefer to hire, one who is pleasant to work with or the one who is awkward to be around?
I was inundated with people going on and on about coworkers just blabbing non stop and not getting work done, etc. As if it's impossible for someone to be friendly and pleasant to work with without chatting endlessly and being completely unproductive.
Also, "blabbing non-stop and not getting work done" is not what most people mean when they describe someone as "pleasant to work with".
I'd go as far as to say they'd be awkward to be around
And to them, the ass-kissers are always bad at their jobs and don't deserve it, but simply doing their job and going home should stick out enough to the boss for a raise.
I sympathize. If you have a social disability or the misfortune to end up in a workplace that doesn't like you, it can feel deeply unfair. But rare is the job where you truly don't have to be bothered with anyone else.
I’ve seen this happen so many times! In cases I’ve personally seen, some of the people who “don’t want to socialize with coworkers” are actively verbally hostile or refuse to communicate with their coworkers. Yeah, I can see why they get passed up for promotions, over people who can hold a conversation.
You don’t even need to hang out outside of work. You just need to be on respectful speaking terms. This is ESPECIALLY true if the job is client-facing. Generally, colleagues will assume you’re just as curt to clients as you are to them.
I’m an introvert and yeah, would be socializing if I didn’t have to, but it’s 100% a job expectation, especially if there’s any client-facing aspect.
Used to work with a guy who was one of those who didn't want to socialize and was actively hostile with coworkers. The thing was, he really thought he was being helpful when you asked him about something. His responses were so patronizing and he was so full of himself, nobody wanted to approach him. Think "Nick Burns, the company computer guy" skit from SNL.
There was an audible groan whenever someone realized there was no other option than to go ask him a question. He had no idea how much people actively avoided working with him. The only thing saving him was that he happened to be good at what he did in a field with limited people with that knowledge. Had he had a modicum of social skills, he could have gone much further.
I mean, there are people who get away with this, but they have to be bringing something a bit more exciting to the table than "usually in the top-performing 3 or 4 out of 12".
That's one thing I noticed. OP is a good performer, but not so good that they can ignore a serious gap in expected skillset.
And OP had to "explain to his manager" that he was high performing, so...
Yeah, i’ve worked with people who have been rather openly antagonistic towards their managers and coworkers when they happened to feel like it. But staying employed long enough to build a reputation of being like that is because they are extremely good at what they do. And i’m sure their managers have been looking for options.
Yes to all of this. I suspect LAOP doesn’t even realise the extent of how problematic his behaviour is because he lacks self awareness. If you’re not able to make friends at all or get a one night stand, then you are seriously putting people off.
He’s obsessed with it being about him not bringing a date, but I just think he’s completely missed the bigger picture, and he continues to refuse to see it. It will be about his interaction with people all through his time at the company whether internally or externally. This would have been the final straw. He may even have misunderstood what they meant about the party; in fact it may have been that he made other people uncomfortable and he’s just grabbed the lack of a date thing as the main issue because it’s tangible. I’d guarantee that if he had excellent social skills but didn’t bring a date the company would be unlikely to care. And you shouldn’t be awkward just because you don’t have a date. That goes more to social skills than it does the lack of a partner.
I must admit that LAOP set off some alarm bells for me in terms of his predisposition to possible radicalization on this front.
The truth is that even if LAUKOP had brought a date, it probably still would’ve been really awkward and they still wouldn’t have progressed because it’s NOT ABOUT THE DATE.
I think that bringing a date would have signaled that there's at least some hope for him and his work performance might've carried him over the line.
Bringing a date would have represented an understanding of the issues holding him back and a willingness to invest effort in fixing it.
Is that a polite way of saying OP gives off strong incel vibes?
Yes. I was a bit reluctant to say that because he clearly lacks social and communication skills so it could just be that.
Oh, lord, is this actually a thing?
Because I wouldn't be surprised if it was. Incels will find any excuse not to work on themselves in a positive way.
Edit: autocorrect changed "Incels" to "Uncles", which would still work for my family, but might confuse others, so I fixed it.
It's such a thing they've straight-up reinvented phrenology from first principles.
I've seen incels blaming the angle/tilt of their brow bone (like in their face) for why they don't have a girlfriend.
And then called all women vapid cunts for caring about the tilt of their brow bone more than what really matters (like them calling all women cunts, perhaps?)
This comment from LAOP sums it all up, I think. If he can't even ask about someone's weekend while they're both making coffee, he's going to really struggle in any job that involves interaction with people. And that's basically almost every job, unfortunately for him.
I don’t know how old LAUKOP is but even if he is a teenager that is too old to not ever have had any friends.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they were very unprofessional during the event, and that is why they received negative feedback.
I don’t trust someone who has never had a friend to accurately describe their social skills.
From his responses in that thread, he's at least 27. And he also paid for five years of therapy to try to make friends in his 20s.
I'm annoyed at the "you deffo have the tism, bro" comments. So many autistic people (like me!) spend ungodly amounts of time studying human behavior in an attempt to fit in.
A clear instruction to bring someone to event? Thank God someone is giving me actionable directions!
Came here to post that. “Being a date?” Umm…I’m single. “Could be anyone, not just a romantic partner.” Thank you so much for clarifying, on it.
Right! Yeah it's definitely about his social skills, but also the fact that they gave him very clear instructions that he did not follow. They looked this man in the eye and said "bring a date, any gender, bring a friend, bring someone, it's important that you bring someone and be social". I don't know how much clearer they needed to be. There's autistic and then there's whatever OOP has going on, which seems like some sort of disdain for any socialization that doesn't directly immediately benefit him.
As someone who is AFAB and autistic, I went to the NHS recommended autism support club when I was diagnosed and it was full of men just like this. I went once, it was awful. There is just a lack of interest in other people at a fundamental level for them and they only see it as something they have to do to get something that would benefit them. Each man talked to me only once and it was to determine if I was going to date him. All the men there were single, friendless, and mostly jobless too. All the issues that men have in our culture are doubled for them and they are at major risk of getting Tate-d.
Tbf, at least one seemed to come from an autistic person. But as someone frequently asked if they're autistic, it REALLY bothers me. Like, nah, this is the "NT meeting you where you're at" that people keep wanting. As far as I know anyway.
He apparently started in the graduate program at 27.
Everyone seems quick to jump on the autism diagnosis bandwagon, and I'm not saying he is or isn't, but everything about OP'S responses screams personality disorder to me. Specifically schizoid.
Okay yeah that's a really good point. I wasn't sure exactly how to describe his disdain for social interactions that don't immediately benefit him but schizoid personality disorder fits that well.
Why schizoid?
One of the characteristics is having very limited personal relationships and not seeing the point in being social
The Cluster B personality disorders are popular, but the Cluster As do exist.
Schizoid is an overlap of mood and psychotic symptoms. I think anti-social PD would be a better fit
You're thinking of schizotypal, which includes magical thinking and delusions of reference.
ASPD symptoms include manipulative and callous traits, reckless disregard for laws or mores, aggression, and other behaviors that place them in frequent conflict with society.
Edited to correct spelling.
You're right. I remembered incorrectly. I'm in criminal law so I'm frequently dealing with schizotypial, ASPD and BPD
Yeah, this isn't about not having a date. I'm guessing it was how awkward he was at the party. Having someone else there as a friend or a date usually helps people open up and relax a bit, and sometimes it does the opposite. But if he couldn't relax and be approachable and charming, I think that was the strike against him. [Not that he couldn't find someone to go with, I'm sure dates fall through and sometimes spouses are not available. Again I'm guessing he just had to be outgoing and professionally sociable, and miserably failed].
I wonder what kind of industry he is in that personality matters that much.
But everyone knows if there are two people being interviewed, and one is slightly better than the other, but the one that is slightly better is someone that you don't want to work with you're going to go with the other guy
I don't believe that post. Like, not a single word. It's either creative writing or AI. Maybe it's just that I'm jaded because Reddit is now mainly bots, but idk. Something just doesn't feel real. It's written too well, if that makes sense. There's just a little too much detail and the answers look like they were prepared just waiting for the question, and all of them add a little more to the story. Idk. It's probably just me.
I'm autistic and it reads autistic as balls to me. We give a little too much detail and I guarantee this guy has every angle covered (except the fact that getting on with other people is basically the most basic thing you need to get promoted).
LocationBot doesn't have many friends:
This jumped out at me!
OP seems to have told his boss that the work was of high quality, not the other way around!
The part that I found most interesting is the "look if you'd rather bring a gentleman friend that's cool too." The bosses were trying everything they could think of to get LAUKOP to engage.
I have been to events where my job was to smile, shake hands, and look cute in holiday attire for my SO. I knew my task and I executed it well. Soft skills are important.
They probably should also have specified that it could be a platonic friend. That wouldn't have helped OP, but they'd at least understand it wasn't the inability to get a date-date.
Cat fact: Cats don’t care about your work quality or if you have a date; they just want a full food bowl and a warm lap to sit on.
I think it's been removed now, but seeing his response to someone who shared an anecdote about attending two of these kinds of work functions with a friend (the boss apparently drunkenly said this person was "better than the last one" at the second event, and the LAOP asked why they didn't take that as a compliment) definitely makes me suspect the issue is bigger than him not having a date. 😂
Still though, I feel bad for the guy. People skills are important in just about every field, and I imagine it must be really difficult if you just don't get them
If the purpose of this was to test social skills, and OP has apparently none, he's not only going to suffer with clients, he might embarrass the company. I've a few friends in London firms and a lot of business is sealed with drinks down a bar on a thursday or friday afternoon. That's the reality of London firms that have black tie dinners.
Although it sounds like his job isn't client facing, so it must be internal networking where the issue lies. As bad as it sounds, if you lack the ability to even make a friend outside of work, it is a red flag that you can't navigate social situations well. And if you have things like project teams, well, you kind of need a decent amount of social skills to navigate them.
Either way, there's nothing discriminatory about what the company has done. The instruction was bring someone and they failed to do it, didn't even bother to come up with a passable white lie, then had awkward conversations at the dinner - presumably because they gave off the vibe they didn't want to be there.
If I'm guessing, its not client facing but I would imagine its "clients" as in other firms. Or he doesn't realise that even though there is a dedicated account manager he to is expected to speak to clients on occasion to as he gets up in rank.
My roles have never been described as client facing and client interaction has never been on the job spec. But when you're in a technical role, once a month of so its normal to be pulled in by the account manager to answer questions or whatever.
This is an excellent point. Most jobs that have zero client-interaction and zero internal liasoning are jobs where you are not important at all, thus no one needs to talk to you. As you go up the ladder and become a part of leadership, soft skills and social interaction become increasingly important. You're now an authority on your work and team, which in turn makes you a spokesperson.
Kinda but mostly accurate. As someone who worked up from engineering to engineering management, while a good engineering manager tries to insulate the individual contributor types from being randomly bothered by stakeholders/clients as much as possible, the bare fact is that you are never going to rise to management/architect/principal engineer levels unless you can have those conversations with stakeholders.
Yeah I'm not in a client facing role. But I unfortunately talk to clients all the time. A lot of times I need to get information directly from them so we're not playing a game of telephone.
It is MUCH better than being an account manager type, as I'm not expected to have that sales-y outgoing attitude, but I absolutely need to be good at small talk, communicating with clients, making them feel comfortable and not awkward, etc, even if I'm just hopping on 30 min zoom calls with them primarily.
i bet if he had, for example, a long distance gf, and explained that, that wouldn’t have been an issue. that would’ve been proof of at least some kind of social skills.
or they would’ve said to bring a friend and not a date date, which wouldn’t have been a problem for most people with a bare minimum of social skills…
They did say that.
I bet if he had been engaging with his colleagues, date or not, he wouldn't have been kept back.
He clearly was already under scrutiny so there's more to "fix" vibe wise than just bringing a date.
The "lot of awkward conversations" could be 12 seconds of slight awkward (if that) for someone socially competent.
Also, I am a gremlin who lacks some social skills and pretends more often than not to be normal, so I get it, it would be awkward and hard for me but I'd still pretend like hell if my job depended on it. (caveat that I do not have enough neurospicy to pretend to any diagnostic so if LAOP is on the spectrum I can't pretend to know what he goes through)
The fact they told him they could bring someone who wasn’t a girlfriend (and I still think that would include anyone) leads me to believe he was moaning about it in the weeks leading up to the event. Which would be worse than keeping quiet then not bringing someone.
Reading between the lines it sounds like OOP probably is a high performer as it sounds like his management really went out of their way to suggest non romantic or non hetero as accommodative options. Seems like if he weren’t a high performer they’d be less likely to try to help him in this way.
I feel sorry for the guy but ultimately if the organization is the type to host those kind of fancy dinners, I agree with responders that social interaction is probably an important characteristic of higher levels.
Given the extent to which OOP is engaging I don’t know that I agree with other responders here that people’s advice went beyond the scope. If he is ND in some way that could be an angle I guess but it also may suggest non compatibility with the higher roles.
Oof. LAUKOP's account is now banned for something, too.
Hope this works out okay for him.
Then going to the party and spending the whole evening moping in the corner? This isn't a high school prom. You can go to a party alone and still be sociable, strike up conversations with the other attendees, dance, drink, enjoy the food, count your blessings. Sure it can be tiring and not as fun without a buddy, but still more than doable - in fact it's even more of a social skill to be able to go to parties alone! As soon as the boss saw that LAUKOP couldn't even be social, despite being solo, it was over.
I am autistic, but AFAB and got to the age of 31 before diagnosis. When I joined where I work now, I was awkward but friendly, but what my foot properly in the door is that when the group BBQ happened, about 9 months after started, I went round and talked to people, introduced myself, asked who they were, did small talk stuff, and you bet it was noticed.
I gained a reputation for being friendly, approachable, and who could be trusted to talk to people I don't know without embarrassing myself or the company. Four years later, I'm trusted and have brilliant relationships with people. I am trusted to do my job without a lot of oversight as a result. It's nice.
I've said it many times before, I'll say it again: everyone needs a pragmatics course at some point. Like it should be a standard thing in education. Even if you're the johnny football guy with 100 social skills, this stuff still benefits
Just in the last few days there was the Master / PHD- LAOP and somebody had a very poignant post about following the unwritten / unspoken rules of Academia. I would say that it pretty much is the same case.
Your idea is spot on, like in intro to law classes do they come right out and say "hey by the way, you need to be a sociable person in this profession, even if you yourself will never be before a judge and jury, you need to be able to schmooze, not even clients, just your fellow peers, if you can't do that, you won't get very far"
True, but I was thinking even more basic than that. At least 90% of the Reddit posts that I see where social situations come up - be it AITA, etiquette, “what do I do/should I have done” type posts - could have been avoided with a very simple lesson in pragmatics. Body language, tone, when something is assumed information, presuppositions, “is it appropriate to do XYZ in ABC settings” and so on. They go over how to interview, table manners, “should you say this on a date.” They even teach you how to complain without being a Karen. Seriously.
I went to a private high school where everyone would have to take pragmatics, like as a regular high school class, for their freshman/sophomore year
All of these things can certainly tie into social skills in the kind of situation that LAOP was in
Most people just think they’re too good for this stuff, or they assume their kids are perfect and don’t need it, so they never actually teach them how to handle themselves in social situations
I've often joked that I should hire myself out as a non sexual escort to events.
I find most people to be genuinely interesting and can make conversation with almost anyone, I'm good at social cues, and can also sit quietly and have a meaningful conversation with someone.
I look good in a cocktail dress, but not so good that I'm out of anyone's league or people get jealous or weird. I love to dance, but again, not well enough to stand out, I have no dietary restrictions and can generally hold my alcohol.
I can be your friend, cousin, grad school classmate, lady from your book club or softball team, whatever.
Hire me for your next function
I once had to deal with a coworker bringing his grandmother to a work party.
He'd RSVP'd for a plus one but his girlfriend was unexpectedly busy bombing the Middle East so he brought his Grandma. It was an excuse to take her out of the nursing home and she'd love getting dressed up and meeting his work friends, so why not?
Except that he introduced her to people as the lovely Gloria and expected other people to catch a hint.
They did not catch the hint.
that's amazing
I mean, that could have been absolutely awesome in a few ways IF people had caught on!
I had a business class as part of my degree that, as a graded assignment, required you to make a list of 20 local people you could count on to help you with miscellaneous business favors/networking.
Yeah...I was homeschooled for high school, fled my home town once I got my GED, and was attending school in a different state. I didn't know anyone. And I was too traumatized to meet anyone just yet.
The teacher just didn't believe that I couldn't pull 20 people out of my ass. We got to the end of the course and she sat me down and was like "you will pass with a good grade once you turn in your 20 people. But you will not pass unless you do that." And it took me tearing up and saying there was nothing I could do, and asking if that requirement could be waived when I retook the class, for her to pass me without it.
But she couldn't just say I didn't need it. She took the paper and filled it out with people she knew.
I also wouldn't be able to fill that out. I grew up in a vhcol area so all my friends and I scattered to the winds when we graduated. Now all my anecdotes about my friends are like "yeah Katherine was saying she had to skip laundry yesterday because a bear was chilling outside the laundry room door, just Alaska things I guess lol". I have a dozen ish contacts in my current job but its a small company and my outside work social effort is spent on my buddies in Thailand and Georgia and places.
The way she went about it wasn't great (20 is a lot, and I'm social as hell and bartended for a decade, I know a lot of people) but the lesson she was trying to teach was unfortunately important. Doesn't matter if it's fair or not, or even if the people are actually close enough to do you a favor. Having a social circle and being well known is crucial for any business. Hell, even bartending, I got almost all of my jobs by knowing people, and when I got my girlfriend a job, I was disappointed that she didn't bother to make the same kinds of connections. I kept having to use my connections to get her jobs.
The 20 people sounds very much like the people at companies like Northwestern Mutual who get all your contacts to then try and get you to hit them up for money.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/nov/24/northwestern-mutual-insurance-jobs-hiring
Sure are a lot of people in that thread who don't understand that "escort" is not always a euphemism for "sex worker". It is an actual real job that specializes in exactly this situation.
Anyway... this probably isn't workplace discrimination on the basis of marital status, but it's close enough to it that I'd be worried if I were this company's HR manager.
How does one find one of these legitimate escorts without finding a whole bunch of the ... less-than-legitimate kind?
I imagine as long as they're being paid they're happy to do either type of job. Perhaps happier yet when the work involves good food, free drinks, no need to get changed, and a taxi home
There but by the grace of God go I.
The OG thread is very scary to me as I myself am an autistic weirdo who rarely socializes at work. Is this how people see me...?
I would be able to bring a date, though. So there is that
I think if you’re self aware enough to ask that, and understand why being seen like OOP is a bad thing, you’re probably fine.
There’s nothing wrong with being the quiet person in an office, as long as you’re friendly with it. A quick nod or smile if you make eye contact or something.
This feels like something out of the Victorian era. "This guttersnipe arrived at the cotillion solus, if you can believe it. He could probably barely scrape together the wherewithal to attend in proper black tie. He frankly would have ruined the quadrille, and we shan't be keeping him at the firm if this keeps up, no matter his numbers"
Maybe I just am too far removed from that world, but my mind staggers picturing any manager I've ever had just openly admitting that "didn't bring date to party" was the reason I'm being denied a promotion
OOP is actually very careful when discussing that. He alludes to it a lot by making it clear that he believes it was the case, stating that his boss cited his lack of social skills, and that he has "it" in writing. Even when pressed, OOP refuses to outright state "Boss said if I brought a date/friend/escort I'd have been promoted."
His goal is to convince Reddit that he is in the right. Misleading to get a more positive response (but not outright lying- then it doesn't count) is common here.
I have met this person. Not literally this person, but this person. That's exactly how they work. It's fascinating.
he seems to not have connected at all with any coworkers or shown any proof of being able to handle social situations, so this seems more like them trying to see if maybe he’s just not extroverted at work, but does actually have some social skills by having anyone (partner, friend, acquaintance, whatever) in his life.
I'm sure if he'd have come without a date and spent the night having fun with his co workers no one would have cared he was on his own.
I have a question. Say I was in this situation, but my actual, long term partner was unavailable. What do you do then? Would I have to have a conversation with my partner along the lines of "I have to take a date but you are working away in Italy that week so I have to find someone else to be my date"?
Would my work find it weird if they knew I already had a partner and brought someone else instead? Would I just have to bring a random friend and explain the situation?