It's kind of bizarre to think that Ahmed al-Ahmed managed to leave Syria only a few years before the rise of ISIS, only to come face to face with ISIS supporters in Australia, of all places.
No, it isn’t. The Australian Jewish community has been saying something like this was going to happen for two years, and they continue to be ignored. Everyone wants to focus on the silver lining to this pile of corpses. We’re not going to heroic-fruit-vendor our way out of mass murder of Jews if no one is willing to talk about the actual problem.
They were not ignored, the Government appointed a special envoy to look at the entire issue of anti semitism and make recommendations for a whole of Government approach to resolve it, that was just delivered in August.
ASIO which is the Australian Intelligence Agency investigated a series of attacks against synagogues and Jewish businesses and identified that Ithey originated from Iran who hired individuals in Australia to conduct the attacks. The Government declared the Iranian ambassador Persona no grata and expelled them from the country.
After each incident both State and Federal Governments made formal statements condemning anti-Semitism.
This type of attack isn't like two blokes waking up and deciding to go and commit an act or terrorism. They were radicalised over time, they travelled to receive training, they lied to their family about where they were.
This is exactly the type of event that Governments all over the world fear the most, exactly because it is so hard to predict and stop.
Ask Australian Jews, who have been trying to get help for two years. See eg here, here, and here
Everyone should look at the downvotes I and the other people making this point are getting. The “most important” thing about this is that one guy did something good—and a Muslim no less!!!!—and not that Australia has been a hotbed of antisemitism that has now resulted in the firebombing of synagogues and the first mass shooting on the continent in 30+ years, nor that the Jewish community there is crying out in anguish and frustration because they feel abandoned by their countrymen. Every one of you should feel ashamed that you can’t even take the grain of criticism of an internet comment pointing out the pile of corpses you’re all having your Hallmark moment in front of, but you won’t. Lecture me about my messaging, as if it will matter, you contemptible bigots.
I'm not lecturing you, I'm trying to find out what you're actually advocating. I find antisemitism absolutely loathsome, but 90% of people who argue against it online these days seem to make great allowances for islamophobia, as if one version of bigotry against religious minorities is more justified than the other. So this is me trying to discern whether you're principally opposed to bigotry or not.
first mass shooting on the continent in 30+ years
So you don't count the Christchurch mosque shootings then?
Yeah, we're using different definitions/identifications for continents then. I'm used to lumping Australia, New Zealand and a bunch of other island nations into the continent Oceania, whereas I'm guessing you're using the geological definition that combines Europe and Asia into Eurasia?
I guess so. It's all semantic really, but I'm Australian and I've never heard anyone suggest that New Zealand is part of the Australian continent. My conception of the Australian continent is the stuff on the Australian continental shelf - mainland Australia, Tasmania, PNG, and a few other islands. New Zealand (and the other Pacific islands) aren't part of it.
Seems like there's all sorts of definitions out there - every day's a school day. I don't think anyone here would consider, Hawaii or French Polynesia to be part of our continent though, which it is if you're going with Oceania as the continent Australia is part of.
Yeah, like you say it's just different local traditions. From my school days and quizzes I'm very used to putting them together. "What continent is Hawaii part of?" is a very common trick question in quizzes!
Frankly, I’ve done a lot of research on American mass shootings in pursuit of my degree, including watching a ton of classified videos. These are the kinds of acts you get once or twice, at most, per video, per report, per mass shooting.
This is just objectively not true. First, I don't know what he means by classified videos. No mass shooting videos are classified. There may be some police bodycam videos that are witheld from public release, but that isn't classified.
People going out of their way to help people happens all the time during mass shootings and other mass casualty events in the US. It's just more likely to happen when the attacks are large. Look at the Boston Marathon bombing civilian response and the Las Vegas shooting responses. Very similar to the Bondi response.
There are many reasons to shit on America and Americans, but the civilian, immediate response to mass shootings is not something to be critical of.
What he's seeing is that we've been told/trained to get away from the scene of a shooting before doing anything else and only to fight as a last resort. Run hide fight and all that. This also happened in a area that was more conducive to this, kind of the Venice Beach of Australia. If this sort of thing happened at Daytona Beach or the Atlantic City boardwalk, you'd probably see some similar behavior.
That said I don't have a ton of faith in the good nature of my fellow Americans these days, so I'm not sure I'd bet on us to do the right thing on a good day, much less a bad one.
Personally, I read "Classified" as using the "arrange (a group of people or things) in classes or categories according to shared qualities or characteristics" meaning. As in, these videos have been classified to be from Mass Shootings, properly labelled to adhere to a common standard of what "Mass Shooting" means, what year, what location etc.
Is the term “classified” used differently in Australia in a colloquial context?
Because the phrase “including watching a ton of classified videos” heavily implies watching videos not widely available to the public, at least in America.
That’s how I read it but I see how it could just be a language thing. My wife’s family is from Britain and they looked at me like I had three heads when I told them I was going to the Packie to get some beer.
I mean, I'm actually a Brit myself- and... Be careful with "Packie", some people might hear it as "Paki" which isn't a term thought of with fondness by the people it refers to.
I can't speak to Asutralian Colloquialisms, but given that the person in question said 'Classified' in an academic/higher education context, that's probably the most common use of the term in that context.
Especially, as, say, you'd 'Classify' a new species of Bird or whathaveyou to determine where it sits in the taxonomical system.
I am aware of taxonomy and classification. It’s a colloquial stretch in reference to video footage, which is why I asked.
I am aware of the Packie/Paki circumstance as that is exactly why I related the story.
Also, the thought of a Brit policing Bostonian language genuinely makes me chuckle.
We have to watch our language because y’all were a bunch of imperialist colonialist assholes to the entire world and the Indian subcontinent in particular?
How about y’all don’t use derogatory terms for people that aren’t white Anglo-Saxon Protestants and we just keep using Packie as slang for package store.
Seems like the better outcome than us changing what we say.
I mean y’all forced all your religious dissidents here because they were too strict about following scripture. Imagine how far out that must have been for a time known for religious extremism and dogmatic adherence.
If they're Australian and basing their research on reading American media then I can see how they'd come away with the idea that people don't care when a shooting happens. Local communities absolutely care and there tends to be a lot of local support that goes unreported except by local news.
Make no mistake, this wasn’t just a “Bondi gun attack.” This was just the most recent incident of violence against the Jewish community. While there is solace to be taken from looking from the helpers, this should not be treated as an isolated incident that is now past. Anti-Jewish bigotry has been on the rise for some time now, with schools, synagogues and community gatherings targeted across the globe. The attackers never ask “what are your politics,” they attack these people because they are Jews.
If you are asking what you can do to make the world a better and kinder place, I would suggest you apply the same principles of antiracism to defending the Jewish community. Make the social cost for even the most casual anti Jewish comment so high that people are no longer comfortable spouting their hateful words. These things don’t start from nowhere. Help my people feel safe again.
Given the definition of terrorism “furthering or amplifying political sentiment” etc etc (your country’s definition may vary), I would say yes, the shooters are likely criticising the actions of the government of Israel.
Was ya boi Bibi in the crowd? No, because the shooters are brain dead lunatics who equate Jewish people with Isreal. Which is stupid - but I’d hazard a guess that the shooters were not the brightest bunch.
But back to the original question, does criticizing the actions of the government of Israel count as “anti-Jewish comments”?
That's not the original question, though. I'm an anti-Zionist through and through. But can we please just acknowledge the fear and bloodshed of ordinary Jews for five minutes without moving the focus to Israel on the other side of the planet?
Would the shooters have killed people that day if Israel hadn't bombed Gaza? Maybe, who can say. But Jews have spent a few thousand years getting used to people wanting to kill us. Just let people grieve for a second, man.
Well the original post is praising the bloody great Aussies that day.
Then matey boy bought it on Jewish persecution. Jonathan_the nerd asked a very simple question - this is the question I am referring to when I state “original question” … it is still unanswered
I'm so sorry "matey boy" dampened your good time by politely bringing up the actual reason so many people were slaughtered that day. And I wish I could make you understand how genuinely, viscerally terrified comments like yours make people like us feel.
Well then just so you'll shut up about it, even though it has nothing to do with this thread no, criticizing the actions of the Israeli government is not automatically anti-semetic, providing you'd make the same criticisms if it was anyone but Israeli (read: jews).
Anti-zionism *is,, however, antisemitic on its face, since zionism just means the Jewish right to a homeland. And before you get all wet and hot for that statement, im not spending energy debating obviously inappropriate illegal settlements with you. This isn't an all or nothing thing. Despite what the internet would have you believe, multiple things can be true at the same time: jews can deserve a homeland AND israel can be behaving poorly
I think they're highlighting the specific protests in Australia that got international media attention, like the one shouting "Gas the Jews", and not allowing Jews to wave their own flags
If you are asking what you can do to make the world a better and kinder place, I would suggest you apply the same principles of antiracism to defending the Jewish community. Make the social cost for even the most casual anti Jewish comment so high that people are no longer comfortable spouting their hateful words.
The social cost has decreased over the last two decades. The goalpost gets moved in the wrong direction, daily, for years.
Make racists (I'm including antisemites in this) afraid again. Make them feel shame again.
We have to reintroduce the social cost of racist and bigoted behaviours in general.
Whilst I don’t disagree with the thrust of what you’re saying, I feel like you’re trying to hijack the sentiment of the post here a bit. Can we not just celebrate the response of the Australian public in isolation somewhere?
The sentiment of the post is trying to hijack the reality of the situation.
The heroes deserve celebration. The entire world is celebrating them. I haven't heard a fucking word for the victims that didn't come from a politicians Twitter post.
So then make those posts yourself instead of hijacking one trying to talk about a different aspect? Be the change you want to see
Are you an Aussie? Because the sentiment you’re complaining is missing is all over Australia. Maybe the reason you haven’t seen anything except statements from politicians is because you live half the fucking world away. And you have the gall to lecture…
Can you not see how, to Jewish people who are absolutely fucking terrified right now, the (extremely well-meaning and genuinely heartwarming) sentiment of the original post can itself feel like the takeaway's been hijacked?
We can and should absolutely talk about both - but let's talk about both. "This isn't the place to be talking about antisemitism, we want to be uplifted" feels extremely tonedeaf right now.
What part of "We can and should absolutely talk about both" limits and polices the conversation? We should celebrate these heroes - and we should talk about why they were put in harm's way.
And yes, Jews around the world are deeply concerned about antisemitic violence. If you don't understand why that is, you're part of the problem.
The fact that you're bring downvoted says it all. I will be as well.
I've seen SO MANY MORE posts about the people who helped (and hey they're great, build them some statues, they deserve it) than I have mentioning that the attack was aimed at a Jewish event. Anything that does mention jews has a line of comments saying "WHY AREN'T YOU TALKInG ABOUT AHMED." On the Bernie Sanders sub, someone posted a screenshot of Bernie's statement on the shooting, and its sitting at 20 upvotes.
Anything to drive the narrative away from acknowledging that violence against jews is an issue. Anything to avoid acknowledging that constantly screaming about "anti-zionism" and downplaying antisemitism has real-world consequences for jews around the world. Anything to redirect the conversation towards Israel's actions or "WhAt DoEs AnTi-IsRaEl HaVe To Do WiTh AnTi-SemItIsM" instead of acknowledging what's happening world-wide towards innocent jews who have nothing to do with it.
I mean, Jesus, just look at the responses to your comment. "Just wondering, does criticizing the actions of the government of Israel count as "anti-Jewish comments"?" God help us my dude, was the shooter criticizing the actions of the government of Israel? Was Netanyahu in the crowd? Then why the fuck are you even making it about that?
When i think of how I spent my entire adult life as a staunch progressive, marching and voting for and with my friends of every race, color, creed, and orientation, to defend their rights and their safety and their ability to just exist without having to fear or be punished for existing, only to see not one single iota of grace and support returned when its my community in the crosshairs. Can't even get them to understand "hey man if you want to support Palestine, that's cool, I respect you standing by your convictions, but I need you to understand how scared 'river to the sea' makes me and other jews feel" without getting a lecture on Israel's bullshit or told I'm wrong to feel the way I feel.
Where's the justice i and mine have spent so long fighting for for others?
You’re an American, not an Australian, complaining abour not seeing a certain sentiment on an Australian subreddit (despite probably not having even looked, because it's clearly there) and having no idea what the atmosphere is like in Australia.
Before I say my bit, let me just say I'm so sorry for your community. Tanchumin.
I'm sure what parts of this are getting their share of attention are entirely different in Australia. Even here in Canada the heroes bit is a side-story in the media compared to the tragedy.
The fact is that mass shootings are sadly commonplace in America where most of the posts and up/downvotes come from. In a place where the populace votes on what rises to the top, it makes sense that they read the tragic stories, but they vote for (and karma farm) the positive ones.
I am not Jewish but I am Australian and I do have Jewish friends. I am stricken by what has happened but also know I can’t be experiencing it in the complexity and visceral way Jewish people are. But I can assure you that Australian news sites are full of stories of the victims, including their relationship with their families and their Jewish communities. And there is an outpouring of grief and sympathy and support from the larger community going on. Moreover, many of the Jewish “victims“ were also heroes, using their bodies to protect others and tackling the gunman. These stories are being told on front pages
As to the hero focus, apart from being natural, it is also a standard playbook to deal with what this appears to be, lone wolf, psychologically pitiful, radicalised shooters. You give them nothing, you don’t say their names, you don’t publish their sick “manifestos” or feed their ego in any way. Instead you focus on the heroes and the resilience of the community. The message to the shooters and any potential others are, you are nothing and you have done nothing and now you will be locked away and left to rot.
The Australian subreddits I've seen are full of comments about Zionism and Israel. Like somehow this tragedy was the fault of the Jews. It's disgusting.
Edit: you speak the truth. The downvotes on your comment are very telling.
you can and should differentiate jewish people from zionists. you can simultaneously recognize that israel is a genocidal ethnostate while recognizing that the slaughter of jewish people is bad.
the conflation of antigenocide sentiment with "antisemitism" was fostered on purpose by actual antisemites. bibi included, the far right loves to obscure the difference.
Palestine should be free and apartheid and state violence and colonization should end, and Jewish people around the world deserve love and respect and should not be attacked.
Antisemitic groups and people would like us all to think those are conflicting, opposite thoughts, but they aren't.
What does a guy shooting jews in Australia have to do with the Israeli government bombing refugee camps?
Unfortunately, the Israeli government and global corporate media have linked the two phenomena in a way that makes this stuff inevitable. Every time an individual or group expresses negative opinions toward the genocide being perpetrated by Israel, there is a concerted propaganda response calling those people and organizations antisemitic, basically using all Jews as human shields for a psychopathic and murderous political agenda.
In simpler terms the Israeli government and the media are saying "criticizing Israel is criticizing Jews because Jews ARE Israel."
When you say that, crazy people like these two shooters think that if "Jews are Israel" then attacking Jews anywhere is attacking Israel.
Tldr: Israel is making Jews all over the world less safe.
Just to clarify, there were, at the large pro-Palestinian rally in question, some small groups of people making anti-Semitic chants. The organisers asked them to leave. The claim this included a chant of Gas the Jews, was investigated by NSW police. If substantiated, those responsible could have been charged for hate speech. Police concluded, from analysing recordings, they had been chanting “where’s the Jews?’ Unsavoury and unacceptable but not meeting the level for a criminal charge.
Overall, note that large regular, weekly even, demonstrations condemning Israel’s actions in Gaza have been going on in major cities in Australia for over a year. Participants are in the tens of thousands. Attendees include Jews and Muslims and the larger population. The organisers carefully and continually make the point the opposition is to the actions of the Israeli government. This does not stop right wing politicians and right wing pro-Israel advocates claiming the demonstrations represent “rising anti-semitism“. Many of those politicians have now jumped in to sickeningly exploit this terrible tragedy for their own agendas.
You're not even addressing the video evidence that Jews were physically removed from the scene because police admitted they could not ensure their safety if they counter protested.
The cost, social or otherwise, for antijewishness has never been higher and antijewish attacks and bigotry have not increased these last years. The only thing that has increased this last years is antizionism, which is not antijewishness.
Conflation of antizionism with antisemitism is actually incredibly reductive and racist and also incredibly dangerous for jews worldwide.
This may have been the subtext of what they said. But they didn't say this.
The social cost has absolutely decreased, anti-semitism is on the rise and anti-semitic hate crimes have increased. It is absolutely true that conflation of anti-zionism with anti-semitism is in itself an anti-semitic act.
The actions of Israel, and the genocide being effectively live streamed has shifted perceptions. Some people have taken this as a licence to be more anti-semitic, and the framing by Israeli state propaganda has also made some people become anti-semitic. These people are stupid.
I'm not sure what point you were trying to make. Anti-semitism and anti-zionism are both on the rise. Islamaphobia is also on the rise.
Second, the voters and nonvoters of the US decided this is the government they wanted. Trump and republicans got elected by people. The people who thought egg prices were more important. The people who thought Gaza was a good reason to sit out. The people who raged all day to their family and friends that "nothing changes I'm done voting both sides are the same". By misogynistic and racist voters who couldn't deal with Harris and repeated every right wing talking points about her even though they are "Independent". All the young dudes who thought Joe Fucking Rogan is some sort of intellectually honest dude.
Trump won the goddamn popular vote for the first time for a republican since Reagan seems like one side is purity testing and the other is actually more united than ever
If one side is this and the other is that, you're speaking as if the division, as designed and functional for current politics, is a fact of life but it isn't.
I'm not hearing "it's not the politicians it's the voters" from an argument so indulging of the politicians' ideals already.
You're right. I don't follow Aussie politics, but my comment was more stabbing at US politics.
Second, the voters and nonvoters of the US decided this is the government they wanted.
Nah, this is what they thought they wanted. They're too busy fighting "the other side" to realize US citizens are all getting played. Be it "libtards" or "maggats," we've been socially engineered to hate each other. Why do you think the Epstein list isn't instantly available to everyone immediately? Because everyone is on it.
Anyway, ignore this random yank. I won't be commenting anymore to this thread. Much love to Australians.
You're right. I don't follow Aussie politics, but my comment was more stabbing at US politics.
Don't make it about us. It's not about us.
Yes, there are loads of shared issues between the two nations, shared topics, shared things to discuss, shared problems to tackle. Yes, both our political scenes often mirror one another and yes, we are both dealing with a rise in overt bigotry and fascist ideas.
But we don't need to make this tragedy about us.
I know you mean well, but it ain't about us. Let's not be like our current president and instead put the focus where it belongs.
This post would have been better without the weird America comparisons implying that their citizens are somehow inherently braver. When you have 100x the amount of bombings or shootings, the Uvalde type police responses will stand out. But I can think of many, many, many scenarios with brave bystanders that aren’t widely reported. But America bad = upvotes i guess
Nah with everything going on in the US right now it's incredibly clear that the American people are, in general, a bunch of fucking pussies. You can change that but not until you recognize it. You're not there yet though.
I think the fact an unarmed Syrian immigrant took down a shooter to save a bunch of Jewish people is incredibly important
Goddamn right it is.
We are all humans. We are all family, and we all have a responsibility to help each other
Fuck the manosphere and the femoshere. Let’s get the humanosphere going.
This person deserves Australia's highest civilian honor!
It’s called the order of valour and will probably happen.
*Cross of Valour
Apologies you are correct.
The golden shoey.
It's kind of bizarre to think that Ahmed al-Ahmed managed to leave Syria only a few years before the rise of ISIS, only to come face to face with ISIS supporters in Australia, of all places.
And in that moment proved he didn't run out of cowardice. Such a good man, such an uncannily good story.
No, it isn’t. The Australian Jewish community has been saying something like this was going to happen for two years, and they continue to be ignored. Everyone wants to focus on the silver lining to this pile of corpses. We’re not going to heroic-fruit-vendor our way out of mass murder of Jews if no one is willing to talk about the actual problem.
That is a lie.
They were not ignored, the Government appointed a special envoy to look at the entire issue of anti semitism and make recommendations for a whole of Government approach to resolve it, that was just delivered in August.
ASIO which is the Australian Intelligence Agency investigated a series of attacks against synagogues and Jewish businesses and identified that Ithey originated from Iran who hired individuals in Australia to conduct the attacks. The Government declared the Iranian ambassador Persona no grata and expelled them from the country.
After each incident both State and Federal Governments made formal statements condemning anti-Semitism.
This type of attack isn't like two blokes waking up and deciding to go and commit an act or terrorism. They were radicalised over time, they travelled to receive training, they lied to their family about where they were.
This is exactly the type of event that Governments all over the world fear the most, exactly because it is so hard to predict and stop.
no idea why you were downvoted
Not mutually exclusive.
Appreciate the heroism and highlight the deeper systemic problem that made that heroism necessary.
If your goal is increasing support for your cause, your comment is counterproductive.
What's the actual problem in your view?
What do you suggest should be done about it?
Murderous antisemitism
Ask Australian Jews, who have been trying to get help for two years. See eg here, here, and here
Everyone should look at the downvotes I and the other people making this point are getting. The “most important” thing about this is that one guy did something good—and a Muslim no less!!!!—and not that Australia has been a hotbed of antisemitism that has now resulted in the firebombing of synagogues and the first mass shooting on the continent in 30+ years, nor that the Jewish community there is crying out in anguish and frustration because they feel abandoned by their countrymen. Every one of you should feel ashamed that you can’t even take the grain of criticism of an internet comment pointing out the pile of corpses you’re all having your Hallmark moment in front of, but you won’t. Lecture me about my messaging, as if it will matter, you contemptible bigots.
I'm not lecturing you, I'm trying to find out what you're actually advocating. I find antisemitism absolutely loathsome, but 90% of people who argue against it online these days seem to make great allowances for islamophobia, as if one version of bigotry against religious minorities is more justified than the other. So this is me trying to discern whether you're principally opposed to bigotry or not.
So you don't count the Christchurch mosque shootings then?
Christchurch is in New Zealand, which is not part of the continent.
Yeah, we're using different definitions/identifications for continents then. I'm used to lumping Australia, New Zealand and a bunch of other island nations into the continent Oceania, whereas I'm guessing you're using the geological definition that combines Europe and Asia into Eurasia?
I guess so. It's all semantic really, but I'm Australian and I've never heard anyone suggest that New Zealand is part of the Australian continent. My conception of the Australian continent is the stuff on the Australian continental shelf - mainland Australia, Tasmania, PNG, and a few other islands. New Zealand (and the other Pacific islands) aren't part of it.
Seems like there's all sorts of definitions out there - every day's a school day. I don't think anyone here would consider, Hawaii or French Polynesia to be part of our continent though, which it is if you're going with Oceania as the continent Australia is part of.
Yeah, like you say it's just different local traditions. From my school days and quizzes I'm very used to putting them together. "What continent is Hawaii part of?" is a very common trick question in quizzes!
This is what Mr Rogers told us to do. Look for the helpers.
This is just objectively not true. First, I don't know what he means by classified videos. No mass shooting videos are classified. There may be some police bodycam videos that are witheld from public release, but that isn't classified.
People going out of their way to help people happens all the time during mass shootings and other mass casualty events in the US. It's just more likely to happen when the attacks are large. Look at the Boston Marathon bombing civilian response and the Las Vegas shooting responses. Very similar to the Bondi response.
There are many reasons to shit on America and Americans, but the civilian, immediate response to mass shootings is not something to be critical of.
What he's seeing is that we've been told/trained to get away from the scene of a shooting before doing anything else and only to fight as a last resort. Run hide fight and all that. This also happened in a area that was more conducive to this, kind of the Venice Beach of Australia. If this sort of thing happened at Daytona Beach or the Atlantic City boardwalk, you'd probably see some similar behavior.
That said I don't have a ton of faith in the good nature of my fellow Americans these days, so I'm not sure I'd bet on us to do the right thing on a good day, much less a bad one.
Personally, I read "Classified" as using the "arrange (a group of people or things) in classes or categories according to shared qualities or characteristics" meaning. As in, these videos have been classified to be from Mass Shootings, properly labelled to adhere to a common standard of what "Mass Shooting" means, what year, what location etc.
Is the term “classified” used differently in Australia in a colloquial context?
Because the phrase “including watching a ton of classified videos” heavily implies watching videos not widely available to the public, at least in America.
That’s how I read it but I see how it could just be a language thing. My wife’s family is from Britain and they looked at me like I had three heads when I told them I was going to the Packie to get some beer.
No, it's not. I'm Australian and I read their comment as them watching a lot of videos that had been restricted by the government.
I mean, I'm actually a Brit myself- and... Be careful with "Packie", some people might hear it as "Paki" which isn't a term thought of with fondness by the people it refers to.
I can't speak to Asutralian Colloquialisms, but given that the person in question said 'Classified' in an academic/higher education context, that's probably the most common use of the term in that context.
Especially, as, say, you'd 'Classify' a new species of Bird or whathaveyou to determine where it sits in the taxonomical system.
I am aware of taxonomy and classification. It’s a colloquial stretch in reference to video footage, which is why I asked.
I am aware of the Packie/Paki circumstance as that is exactly why I related the story.
Also, the thought of a Brit policing Bostonian language genuinely makes me chuckle.
We have to watch our language because y’all were a bunch of imperialist colonialist assholes to the entire world and the Indian subcontinent in particular?
How about y’all don’t use derogatory terms for people that aren’t white Anglo-Saxon Protestants and we just keep using Packie as slang for package store.
Seems like the better outcome than us changing what we say.
... What's a package store?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/packie
I forget how weird American Alcohol laws can be.
I mean y’all forced all your religious dissidents here because they were too strict about following scripture. Imagine how far out that must have been for a time known for religious extremism and dogmatic adherence.
My understanding is more that they wouldn't accept 'No' when being told 'You can't force the people around you to also follow it like you do'.
Liviu Librescu from the Virginia Tech shooting. Man is an absolute hero.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liviu_Librescu
I didn't think the shooters surrendered either? I vividly remember a video of them both going down.
If they're Australian and basing their research on reading American media then I can see how they'd come away with the idea that people don't care when a shooting happens. Local communities absolutely care and there tends to be a lot of local support that goes unreported except by local news.
As a fellow antipodean here in NZ, this brought tears to my eyes.
Make no mistake, this wasn’t just a “Bondi gun attack.” This was just the most recent incident of violence against the Jewish community. While there is solace to be taken from looking from the helpers, this should not be treated as an isolated incident that is now past. Anti-Jewish bigotry has been on the rise for some time now, with schools, synagogues and community gatherings targeted across the globe. The attackers never ask “what are your politics,” they attack these people because they are Jews.
If you are asking what you can do to make the world a better and kinder place, I would suggest you apply the same principles of antiracism to defending the Jewish community. Make the social cost for even the most casual anti Jewish comment so high that people are no longer comfortable spouting their hateful words. These things don’t start from nowhere. Help my people feel safe again.
Just wondering, does criticizing the actions of the government of Israel count as "anti-Jewish comments"?
Just wondering, was the shooter criticizing the actions of the government of Israel? Was Netanyahu in the crowd?
Given the definition of terrorism “furthering or amplifying political sentiment” etc etc (your country’s definition may vary), I would say yes, the shooters are likely criticising the actions of the government of Israel.
Was ya boi Bibi in the crowd? No, because the shooters are brain dead lunatics who equate Jewish people with Isreal. Which is stupid - but I’d hazard a guess that the shooters were not the brightest bunch.
But back to the original question, does criticizing the actions of the government of Israel count as “anti-Jewish comments”?
That's not the original question, though. I'm an anti-Zionist through and through. But can we please just acknowledge the fear and bloodshed of ordinary Jews for five minutes without moving the focus to Israel on the other side of the planet?
Would the shooters have killed people that day if Israel hadn't bombed Gaza? Maybe, who can say. But Jews have spent a few thousand years getting used to people wanting to kill us. Just let people grieve for a second, man.
Well the original post is praising the bloody great Aussies that day.
Then matey boy bought it on Jewish persecution. Jonathan_the nerd asked a very simple question - this is the question I am referring to when I state “original question” … it is still unanswered
I'm so sorry "matey boy" dampened your good time by politely bringing up the actual reason so many people were slaughtered that day. And I wish I could make you understand how genuinely, viscerally terrified comments like yours make people like us feel.
Why? I’m heavily criticising the shooters.
Well then just so you'll shut up about it, even though it has nothing to do with this thread no, criticizing the actions of the Israeli government is not automatically anti-semetic, providing you'd make the same criticisms if it was anyone but Israeli (read: jews).
Anti-zionism *is,, however, antisemitic on its face, since zionism just means the Jewish right to a homeland. And before you get all wet and hot for that statement, im not spending energy debating obviously inappropriate illegal settlements with you. This isn't an all or nothing thing. Despite what the internet would have you believe, multiple things can be true at the same time: jews can deserve a homeland AND israel can be behaving poorly
Behaving poorly is somewhat mild
I think they're highlighting the specific protests in Australia that got international media attention, like the one shouting "Gas the Jews", and not allowing Jews to wave their own flags
https://youtu.be/_94dVz7omcA?si=nsvAgjGNjM65mntt
The social cost has decreased over the last two decades. The goalpost gets moved in the wrong direction, daily, for years.
Make racists (I'm including antisemites in this) afraid again. Make them feel shame again.
We have to reintroduce the social cost of racist and bigoted behaviours in general.
Not gonna happen while the biggest one occupies the highest position in the land. MRAA and MAGA are in opposition.
What's the MRAA
"Make racists afraid again"
Nice
Whilst I don’t disagree with the thrust of what you’re saying, I feel like you’re trying to hijack the sentiment of the post here a bit. Can we not just celebrate the response of the Australian public in isolation somewhere?
The sentiment of the post is trying to hijack the reality of the situation.
The heroes deserve celebration. The entire world is celebrating them. I haven't heard a fucking word for the victims that didn't come from a politicians Twitter post.
So then make those posts yourself instead of hijacking one trying to talk about a different aspect? Be the change you want to see
Are you an Aussie? Because the sentiment you’re complaining is missing is all over Australia. Maybe the reason you haven’t seen anything except statements from politicians is because you live half the fucking world away. And you have the gall to lecture…
Can you not see how, to Jewish people who are absolutely fucking terrified right now, the (extremely well-meaning and genuinely heartwarming) sentiment of the original post can itself feel like the takeaway's been hijacked?
We can and should absolutely talk about both - but let's talk about both. "This isn't the place to be talking about antisemitism, we want to be uplifted" feels extremely tonedeaf right now.
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What part of "We can and should absolutely talk about both" limits and polices the conversation? We should celebrate these heroes - and we should talk about why they were put in harm's way.
And yes, Jews around the world are deeply concerned about antisemitic violence. If you don't understand why that is, you're part of the problem.
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What the actual fuck, man?
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I feel so incredibly sorry for you. I wish you understood how fucked-up what you're saying is.
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While I sympathize with the folks who get their hackles up about "hijacking" this post, all the downvotes (sitting at -24 right now) are a bit much.
Have my meager upvote.
The fact that you're bring downvoted says it all. I will be as well.
I've seen SO MANY MORE posts about the people who helped (and hey they're great, build them some statues, they deserve it) than I have mentioning that the attack was aimed at a Jewish event. Anything that does mention jews has a line of comments saying "WHY AREN'T YOU TALKInG ABOUT AHMED." On the Bernie Sanders sub, someone posted a screenshot of Bernie's statement on the shooting, and its sitting at 20 upvotes.
Anything to drive the narrative away from acknowledging that violence against jews is an issue. Anything to avoid acknowledging that constantly screaming about "anti-zionism" and downplaying antisemitism has real-world consequences for jews around the world. Anything to redirect the conversation towards Israel's actions or "WhAt DoEs AnTi-IsRaEl HaVe To Do WiTh AnTi-SemItIsM" instead of acknowledging what's happening world-wide towards innocent jews who have nothing to do with it.
I mean, Jesus, just look at the responses to your comment. "Just wondering, does criticizing the actions of the government of Israel count as "anti-Jewish comments"?" God help us my dude, was the shooter criticizing the actions of the government of Israel? Was Netanyahu in the crowd? Then why the fuck are you even making it about that?
When i think of how I spent my entire adult life as a staunch progressive, marching and voting for and with my friends of every race, color, creed, and orientation, to defend their rights and their safety and their ability to just exist without having to fear or be punished for existing, only to see not one single iota of grace and support returned when its my community in the crosshairs. Can't even get them to understand "hey man if you want to support Palestine, that's cool, I respect you standing by your convictions, but I need you to understand how scared 'river to the sea' makes me and other jews feel" without getting a lecture on Israel's bullshit or told I'm wrong to feel the way I feel.
Where's the justice i and mine have spent so long fighting for for others?
You’re an American, not an Australian, complaining abour not seeing a certain sentiment on an Australian subreddit (despite probably not having even looked, because it's clearly there) and having no idea what the atmosphere is like in Australia.
Maybe stay in your lane.
Before I say my bit, let me just say I'm so sorry for your community. Tanchumin.
I'm sure what parts of this are getting their share of attention are entirely different in Australia. Even here in Canada the heroes bit is a side-story in the media compared to the tragedy.
The fact is that mass shootings are sadly commonplace in America where most of the posts and up/downvotes come from. In a place where the populace votes on what rises to the top, it makes sense that they read the tragic stories, but they vote for (and karma farm) the positive ones.
I am not Jewish but I am Australian and I do have Jewish friends. I am stricken by what has happened but also know I can’t be experiencing it in the complexity and visceral way Jewish people are. But I can assure you that Australian news sites are full of stories of the victims, including their relationship with their families and their Jewish communities. And there is an outpouring of grief and sympathy and support from the larger community going on. Moreover, many of the Jewish “victims“ were also heroes, using their bodies to protect others and tackling the gunman. These stories are being told on front pages
As to the hero focus, apart from being natural, it is also a standard playbook to deal with what this appears to be, lone wolf, psychologically pitiful, radicalised shooters. You give them nothing, you don’t say their names, you don’t publish their sick “manifestos” or feed their ego in any way. Instead you focus on the heroes and the resilience of the community. The message to the shooters and any potential others are, you are nothing and you have done nothing and now you will be locked away and left to rot.
The Australian subreddits I've seen are full of comments about Zionism and Israel. Like somehow this tragedy was the fault of the Jews. It's disgusting.
Edit: you speak the truth. The downvotes on your comment are very telling.
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Random Jews in Australia have no influence whatsoever on the actions of the government of Israel.
Tell me, who are Australian Jews oppressing?
you can and should differentiate jewish people from zionists. you can simultaneously recognize that israel is a genocidal ethnostate while recognizing that the slaughter of jewish people is bad.
Well that is because you considering saying "bomb less refugee camps" anti-jewish bigotry for some reason.
What does a guy shooting jews in Australia have to do with the Israeli government bombing refugee camps?
Im asking because you're the one who brought it up in a conversation about someone shooting up a Jewish event in australia
the conflation of antigenocide sentiment with "antisemitism" was fostered on purpose by actual antisemites. bibi included, the far right loves to obscure the difference.
Palestine should be free and apartheid and state violence and colonization should end, and Jewish people around the world deserve love and respect and should not be attacked.
Antisemitic groups and people would like us all to think those are conflicting, opposite thoughts, but they aren't.
Unfortunately, the Israeli government and global corporate media have linked the two phenomena in a way that makes this stuff inevitable. Every time an individual or group expresses negative opinions toward the genocide being perpetrated by Israel, there is a concerted propaganda response calling those people and organizations antisemitic, basically using all Jews as human shields for a psychopathic and murderous political agenda.
In simpler terms the Israeli government and the media are saying "criticizing Israel is criticizing Jews because Jews ARE Israel."
When you say that, crazy people like these two shooters think that if "Jews are Israel" then attacking Jews anywhere is attacking Israel.
Tldr: Israel is making Jews all over the world less safe.
Nah. There were protests in Sydney calling to gas the Jews. Stop trying to downplay the antisemitism.
https://youtu.be/_94dVz7omcA?si=nsvAgjGNjM65mntt
Just to clarify, there were, at the large pro-Palestinian rally in question, some small groups of people making anti-Semitic chants. The organisers asked them to leave. The claim this included a chant of Gas the Jews, was investigated by NSW police. If substantiated, those responsible could have been charged for hate speech. Police concluded, from analysing recordings, they had been chanting “where’s the Jews?’ Unsavoury and unacceptable but not meeting the level for a criminal charge.
Overall, note that large regular, weekly even, demonstrations condemning Israel’s actions in Gaza have been going on in major cities in Australia for over a year. Participants are in the tens of thousands. Attendees include Jews and Muslims and the larger population. The organisers carefully and continually make the point the opposition is to the actions of the Israeli government. This does not stop right wing politicians and right wing pro-Israel advocates claiming the demonstrations represent “rising anti-semitism“. Many of those politicians have now jumped in to sickeningly exploit this terrible tragedy for their own agendas.
You're not even addressing the video evidence that Jews were physically removed from the scene because police admitted they could not ensure their safety if they counter protested.
The cost, social or otherwise, for antijewishness has never been higher and antijewish attacks and bigotry have not increased these last years. The only thing that has increased this last years is antizionism, which is not antijewishness.
Conflation of antizionism with antisemitism is actually incredibly reductive and racist and also incredibly dangerous for jews worldwide.
This may have been the subtext of what they said. But they didn't say this.
The social cost has absolutely decreased, anti-semitism is on the rise and anti-semitic hate crimes have increased. It is absolutely true that conflation of anti-zionism with anti-semitism is in itself an anti-semitic act.
The actions of Israel, and the genocide being effectively live streamed has shifted perceptions. Some people have taken this as a licence to be more anti-semitic, and the framing by Israeli state propaganda has also made some people become anti-semitic. These people are stupid.
I'm not sure what point you were trying to make. Anti-semitism and anti-zionism are both on the rise. Islamaphobia is also on the rise.
Two things can be true. Yes, a lot of antizionism has been falsely labelled as antisemitism, but antisemitism is also on the rise.
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Being anti-Israel doesn't mean being anti-Jewish. No matter what the bigots or Israel state want you to think, not all Jews are Israeli.
This is just the opposite side of the same coin of 'all Palestinians are bad.'
Yeah, so, like, uh... Civilians making it safe for the coppahs. What a time to be alive.
Easy to unite when your govt isn't actively dividing their voters to make them easier to control.
First, you don't follow aussie politics do you?
Second, the voters and nonvoters of the US decided this is the government they wanted. Trump and republicans got elected by people. The people who thought egg prices were more important. The people who thought Gaza was a good reason to sit out. The people who raged all day to their family and friends that "nothing changes I'm done voting both sides are the same". By misogynistic and racist voters who couldn't deal with Harris and repeated every right wing talking points about her even though they are "Independent". All the young dudes who thought Joe Fucking Rogan is some sort of intellectually honest dude.
Trump won the goddamn popular vote for the first time for a republican since Reagan seems like one side is purity testing and the other is actually more united than ever
If one side is this and the other is that, you're speaking as if the division, as designed and functional for current politics, is a fact of life but it isn't.
I'm not hearing "it's not the politicians it's the voters" from an argument so indulging of the politicians' ideals already.
You're right. I don't follow Aussie politics, but my comment was more stabbing at US politics.
Nah, this is what they thought they wanted. They're too busy fighting "the other side" to realize US citizens are all getting played. Be it "libtards" or "maggats," we've been socially engineered to hate each other. Why do you think the Epstein list isn't instantly available to everyone immediately? Because everyone is on it.
Anyway, ignore this random yank. I won't be commenting anymore to this thread. Much love to Australians.
Don't make it about us. It's not about us.
Yes, there are loads of shared issues between the two nations, shared topics, shared things to discuss, shared problems to tackle. Yes, both our political scenes often mirror one another and yes, we are both dealing with a rise in overt bigotry and fascist ideas.
But we don't need to make this tragedy about us.
I know you mean well, but it ain't about us. Let's not be like our current president and instead put the focus where it belongs.
This post would have been better without the weird America comparisons implying that their citizens are somehow inherently braver. When you have 100x the amount of bombings or shootings, the Uvalde type police responses will stand out. But I can think of many, many, many scenarios with brave bystanders that aren’t widely reported. But America bad = upvotes i guess
Nah with everything going on in the US right now it's incredibly clear that the American people are, in general, a bunch of fucking pussies. You can change that but not until you recognize it. You're not there yet though.
...but they are braver (im average) I know it feels unfair but the facts speak for themselves.
And as for why they have 100x the amount of shootings is because they are too scared to deal with the reason they do.