Hello, I was hoping to get some advice on what to do.
I had a job that my boss suddenly terminated within the first half of the contract, and I've been trying to apply for unemployment benefits. My boss initially refused to write a reason for firing me on the C4-document, but now after a month (because the HVW said he had to), he finally sent a C4 saying I was fired because I "didn't want to do the tasks we agreed on when he hired me."
This is completely taken out of context. I never refused any work and I completed all assigned tasks until the day I was let go.
What actually happened: I suggested some task adjustments due to burnout stress after falling sick, he rejected them, and I just kept working. He actually even stopped giving me some work because "he was scared I'd fall sick again" and only told me that when he fired me. Now he's claiming I just didn't want to do the work.
My question: Can the RVA deny me unemployment benefits because the C4 says I "didn't want to do tasks"? I'm worried this wording will make the RVA think I'm at fault for getting fired. My boss refuses to send me a new C4 with a different wording/reasons.
I'm not sure if I should keep trying to get a new C4-version, or just still try to get unemployment benefits with the C4 he sent me.
I was once called for a meeting at the RVA office because they had some questions about my application. Should they deny it, you can request a meeting to explain. A lot of people complaining about the RVA, but I found them to be very reasonable.
Did the people at HvW say anything? They are usually also very helpful, they have always given me solid advice.
Thank you! I haven't been able to talk to the HVW yet since my office was closed today, but was planning to contact them on monday to ask if this C4 could cause issues.
But it was bothering me a bit too much having to wait for the weekend to be over, so this does help calm me down a little bit that i'll be able to explain myself. :)
That person is right. In my experience, VDAB likes to use RVA as a boogie man, but in reality, I've always found RVA more helpful and reasonable than VDAB. Collect as many 'receipts' as you can. Text messages, emails, doctor's notes, anything that can confirm what you explained. Make it make sense, and have a to the point explanation ready.
Explain. Answer questions. RVA also has a way of 'punishing you, administratively', to get around 'rules are rules'. That reason for termination could require you being excluded from unemployment, temporarily. But the length of that 'temporarily' is relative. They can exclude you for a week, or even a few days, and then you're all set again.
I have the absolute worst experience with RVA, started studying this yesr while working 4/5th, so I need compensation for the 1/5th. Filled everything in november, kept getting denied for reasons that arent even true (such as "you havent worked 2 years at your company" , i do, "you dont have enoygh studypoints per semester", but i do, etc) after 3 denials, reclaims from my HR, they denied it officially basically saying "no take backsies" while their reason for denying isnt correct and i cant do anything about it.
I had to reapply, but ive now been 3 months on a much lower paycheck (400 euro differ3nce) and i am loaning money from familly and friends (i live by myself) because of RVA. I am still awaiting a response to my newest claim, but i doubt theyll approve and ill just have to keep loaning until i finish my bachelors, fuck them
Sure they can, but they'll hear you first. I was fired for making a mistake at a job many years ago. I was invited to the RVA to explain the firing reason and a week or so later I got a letter stating that they reviewed my story and they would not punish me by withholding unemployment.
Thank you, knowing that helps a lot!
De hulpkas heeft gelijk, er moet een reden op de C4 staan. Dit wordt na afloop van ontslag ook soms opgevolgd door een vragenlijst vanuit de RVA naar de werkgevers toe.
Een schorsing voor elke reden die ook maar een klein beetje kan wijzen naar uw verantwoordelijkheid (bv. ‘voldoet niet’) kan al leiden tot een schorsing, tot 6 maanden.
Aangezien de hulpkas gratis is, staan ze je niet bij in het verhoor bij de RVA. Vakbonden doen dit wel, naast andere dienstverlening in geval van ontslag of andere (nakijken afrekening bv.). Maar veel zal dus afhangen van het verhoor in uw geval. Veel succes!
Overigens is het zo dat de beperking van de werkloosheid in de tijd tot twee jaar nu ook in voege is. De periode van eventuele schorsing wordt hier van afgetrokken. Een schorsing kort dus ook uw recht op werkloosheid in.
Het goede nieuws is dat een nieuwe werkgever een c4 niet nodig heeft, alleen een vakantieattest.
Edit: afgaande op uw uitleg heb ik de indruk dat u beëindigd bent in een contract van bepaalde duur, daar zijn specifieke regels voor: https://werk.belgie.be/nl/themas/arbeidsovereenkomsten/einde-van-de-arbeidsovereenkomst/eenzijdige-beeindiging-van-de-1
Cleaning up, what I wrote a bit:
There is no chance he wins this in a court, HVW will probably say the same thing to you. So tell the HVW you need legal assistance to take him to court if he doesn't provide a correct C4 within say 72 hours.
I would advise you to always take ABVV as a vakbond for your unemployment, employers are scared of them, they are known bloodhounds and always get what they want out of the employers. They also provide free legal represenation in the "arbeidsrechtbank" - I've never been with the HVW so I'm not sure if they do that aswell.
When going to the RVA:
Bring all the proof you have with you:
Print out the mails where it shows he was reluctant to provide you with a C4, the communication between HVW and him to provide a C4, and the C4 itself. It's very known to the RVA that employers do this when they are pressured for a C4 (they do this out of spite, and it happens frequently).
HVW will obviously support you in this so do ask every potential question you need to ask, you rather know too much than too little in this situation.
He didn't completely refuse to create a C4 (though he was 2 weeks late with it the first time), but just kept saying he didn't need to fill in the part where it asks for a reason. He believed since he fired me within 3 months, no reason was needed. The HVW kept telling me the C4 wasn't complete and he did need to provide a reason on it, so now he finally did fill that in.
But now in his eyes, he "isn't lying" because I once suggested to drop some of my tasks to lower my workload when we had a conversation about my stress-related issues. He completely twisted my words and created this conclusion that "I simply didn't WANT to do those tasks" and that's why he doesn't want to change the C4. But I never refused to do any of the tasks he gave me, so there's this whole discussion about it now.
I suggested him to write something like "not a good fit for the company, not stress-resistant", but he says that "that wouldn't be good enough reason for the RVA".
I did get my 1 week of severance pay so there's no issue there.
He's still in fault on pretty much everything he should have done correctly from the start.
Not to mention even more in fault because he didn't take your welfare into consideration and immediately went to retribution instead, which is going to make him look like a small petulant child in front of the "arbeidsrechtbank".
He could have just written productivity as a C4 reason, that's what basically everyone writes on a C4 nowadays as it usually means the person doesn't perform on the level of the team, which in your case would be valid as the work pressure was too high for you to safely manage.
Still though check with HVW, they will guide you from a to z,
Wait, what? There’s so many things wrong with this advice. Did you get this off chatgpt?
Where does it say this was a dismissal for urgent cause. In any case, dismissal for urgent cause or not, a C4 needs to be delivered on the last day of work. Spoiler: practically no one does and sanctions are scarce.
An employer can write on the C4 whatever they want. Since an employer can write what they want, no one, and I mean no one, will ever consider this case forgery (valsheid in geschrifte). If I’m wrong, kindly show me ANY judgement or doctrine that says otherwise. Note: I’m not talking about an employer helping an employee in getting benefits by delivering a positive C4, but the other way around.
Also. A C4 does not need to be signed by the employee.
What you can do, is just ask the employer for a new C4, saying you don’t agree with the reason stated on it. Your union can help. Don’t believe for a minute that ‘ABVV always gets their way’ as suggested above.
You can also ask your employer in a registered letter to state the reason for your dismissal. If he doesn’t reply, you get 2 weeks pay and the employer will need to prove (charge de la preuve) the dismissal isn’t unjust or pay another 3 to 17 weeks.
No employer is “scared” of the ABVV and they will not always get what they want out of the employer. ABVV is often a pain in the ass for being unreasonable, but they also need to follow the rules and applicable legislation.
In this case, the employer must give you a C4 with the reason and you can file a complaint of the actual reason is not mentioned correctly.
This can have consequences for your 'opzeg' (the period of time your boss needs to give you before they can fire you), some companies might just choose to pay out your wages without asking you to show up. If you are entitled to an 'opzeg' (depends on your type of contract etc). Refusing to do your job might be considered a reason to immediately terminate your contract without 'opzeg' but if you were terminated incorrectly you might be entitled to your wages you would have had during your 'opzeg'. Might be interesting to consult your union or a legal professional.
I did get paid out 1 week of 'opzeg' after he fired me in november (he terminated it right within the first half for a 6 month contract).
I don't know the exact conditions by heart anymore. Might still be interesting to get some actual legal advice, I would make an appointment with a union, they have legal departments for this stuff.
Maybe you misunderstood the HVW? When you get fired you need to send ‘aangetekende brief’ to ask for the reasons you got fired. This is a separate letter that the boss needs to send and I believe (I could be wrong it has been a while) that on your C4 it doesn’t have to say a reason. The RVA can deny you getting an ‘uitkering’ idk for how long cause I got a warning years ago (cause when you get fired it always your own fault in there eyes) but I still got it. The ACV was present but did nothing for me he didn’t even say a word, he didn’t even go trough my evidence beforehand.
You could also have taken ‘sollicitatieverlof’ which is payed by the boss, you have 1 free day (depends on your contract hours) per week. You don’t have to prove you’re searching for other work. Tip for everyone: you can take it even if you quit your job yourself!
HVW?
What I was trying to say, and correct me if I'm wrong because this has all been a while:
- Refusal to do your job description task might be a reason for immediate termination for 'dringende redenen' (immediate reasons) without paying or giving 'opzeg'
- No unemployment benefits if you were terminated for 'dringende redenen'
- Wrongful termination would be a reason for paying out the 'opzeg' by the employer.
- And if OP was wrongfully terminated for 'dringende redenen' she would be entitled to unemployment benefits.
OP clarified she did get 'opzeg' so apparently her employer did not consider it a termination for 'dringende redenen' but maybe the RVA does?
It's probably better to get some real legal advice and not listen to some dude on Reddit who half remembers the law and only knows half the story.
Yes they can. But they will invite you to hear your version of the situation.
yes
Dien het gewoon in bij je vakbond samen met inschrijvingsbewijs, in het slechtste geval moet je even op gesprek komen bij hun als er twijfel is. Dan hangt het er af wie er net voor je zit, geef wat bewijs af. In het slechtste geval schorsen ze je uitkering voor een maand en uitzonderlijk langer maar lijkt mij sterk. En opgelet de RVA heeft een maand de tijd om een beslissing te nemen vanaf dat ze je dossier binnenkrijgen dus niet vanaf wanneer jij je inschrijft bij de VDAB. Als de vakbond dan nog al eens treuzelt of nalaat, kan het zelfs voor een gewone mens soms een maand later zijn, plus dan nog eens een schorsing zit je mss 2 maanden zonder inkomen.
Yes they can. But usually they don’t unless your being fires due to stuff like theft, fraud, …
HVW was wrong. Your boss does NOT have to give a reason, unless you ask him to. So HVW f'd you over.
Also, you don't have unlimited time to ask for unemployment benefits so you need to push forward. You have about 2 months to get your "dossier" complete and you're already half past that.
I've been fired with a bogus reason on the C4. If it is determined to be false, hard to prove, the company can be required to pay you additional weeks of termination fee.
Go meet with the RVA, the worst they can do is delay your benefits for a couple of weeks.
Also, not a union member? You're looking for it.
Yes they do. On the C4, there's a field privided for the reason, it's an obligated field. If not completed, the RVA will send a letter to the company to provide it.
Also, as an employee, you have the right to ask the reason why you were terminated. Employer needs to provide it within a certain time frame. If it's a bullshit reason, you can ask for 17 weeks of additional severance pay.
Thanks for agreeing with me, but I don't understand the tone where you pretend not agree with mee.
Not true. They are obliged to put a reason for firing you on the C4. If they refuse, then there is a big chance that they recieve inspection.
WRONG ! ! !
https://werk.belgie.be/nl/themas/arbeidsovereenkomsten/einde-van-de-arbeidsovereenkomst/ontslagmotivering/ontslagmotivering#toc_heading_2
Recht om de concrete redenen die tot het ontslag hebben geleid te kennen
De werkgever is niet verplicht om uit eigen beweging de ontslagredenen mee te delen. Er zijn twee situaties mogelijk.
De werkgever deelt schriftelijk aan de werknemer de concrete redenen die tot zijn ontslag hebben geleid mee. In deze situatie is de werkgever niet verplicht om op een later verzoek tot motivering van de werknemer te antwoorden.
Wanneer de werkgever de ontslagredenen niet uit eigen beweging heeft meegedeeld, dient de werknemer die deze redenen wil kennen, hiertoe een verzoek te richten tot zijn werkgever door middel van een aangetekend schrijven.
I don’t think so, even if you quit the job yourself they don’t withhold payment for more than three months or so. So you might get ‘punished’ for a few weeks but I think it’s pretty rare for them deny benefits entirely