People over in BG3 like to complain about companions with odd-numbered ability scores but you get to respec them so it’s nbd. There are a few things respeccing can’t fix, like racial cantrip selections but it’s all mostly manageable.
The thing that gets me is Minsc. Couldn’t they pick either two-handed sword OR two-weapon style? And he’s too dumb to EDITwield magic weapons use scrolls and wands? And like, maybe put two pips in longbow instead of one in mace.
Y’all gonna make me buy this for PC so I can mod all this stuff, aren’t you?
Personally I like that not every character you meet is min maxxed. Makes it more immersive.
Same
Correct.
Indeed. That's for my Ward alone 18/00 and 100 stat total minimum!
And makes more sense with how everyone plays ttrpg different.
Some just do straight rolls down (to hardcore for me tbh), roll stats, use pointbuys etc.
But even before I played tttpgs, I always loved uneven stats because they had character. They told a story.
When I started playing 1.0 we just rolled and you got what you got and picked your class based on what your rolls qualified you for. Which was fine.
In the 5.0 era where they use the point buy system and bounded accuracy and so forth there’s a prevailing wisdom that if you don’t hit 18 in your primary at level 4 you’re totally hamstrung.
I don’t think I’m not bringing a 5.0 min/maxing mindset to 2.5. I’m fine with with the companions’ ability spreads, they look like scores a normal person would roll and be happy with. I’m fine with letting rolls be random.
But proficiency points are a resource. And I think resources should be managed wisely. I mostly accept the explanation that there weren’t fighting styles in 1.0 for why Minsc’s pips are allocated as they are. But I would personally commit to a weapon and a style appropriate to that weapon before branching out.
Two weapon style wasn't added until bg2. In bg1 the two handed sword made sense.
Yes, and rangers got that for free. They all have that. But I do agree it's wasted on Minsc.
I usually build him towards eventually dual-wielding in BG2 once I get good weapons, since dual-wielding tends to be just better and his headstart to it thanks to the free pips is nice. But it honestly always feels dirty to have Minsc, who charges into battle yelling about big swords, not wield one.
Yes, exactly. The big sword thing is clearly part of his identity. If I take Minsc along, which isn't often, I give him Lilarcor. If he thinks his hamster talks to him, let's see what he makes of a sword that really talks to him.
This right here is the way. Lilarcor is awesome, both for the dialog and the damage until you start getting +4 2H swords that do more damage. While Minsc is a little spongy early on in BG2 (especially if you didn't use him in BG1), after gear updates he is a viable backup tank for my warrior main character. He also has great mace damage for those annoying clay/brain golems.
Granted my main character is taking most of the damage so Minsc can really shine.
Dual flails is so much fun for Minsc since he's one of only three characters with the full Easthaven/Hardiness/Shield if Faith combo.
I remember that in the original IWD that Rangers got an extra half an APR if they wielded one sword and no off hand. Was that in the original BG1? I played the original 5 disc BG1 but by the time I got into the mechanics and learning everything I was playing BGTutu.
This mechanic was not implemented in the original BG1
Most of them have less than optimal stats and weapon proficiency selection is often not what you would like but it's working pretty well, in the end - if you look on BG1 as a tutorial for BG2 and low level, fun exploration game. Suboptimal stats will force you to think about buffing with items and consumables and seemingly ad hoc choice of weapon skills will enable you to actually used weapons you find you normally probably wouldn't.
Let's consider Minsc: failed berserker (can't control his rage) turned ranger (thus 2 pips in dual wield), oriented on big swords and proficient with spiked weapons / maces and longbows. As a ranger, he can give only 2 points into any weapon skill so at the end of the BG1 he can be specialized in all three - and there are only about 2 or 3 enemies on whom those combo won't work (and he can beat those even with weapon he isn't proficient with, fighter's THAC0 malus -1 is laughable at that point of the game). Longbows are perfect for a long range, 2H swords have both good reach and hitting power (and there is one of few +3 weapons in BG1 in that category) and blunt damage is less resisted than any other type of physical damage.
Or Garrick: often considered most useless companion (with Eldoth) because of rather mediocre stats. In reality, he is a perfect companion for practically any party - his song adds +1 Luck bonus to whole party map wide (dven to those in buildings, protects against magical fear and morale loss (no more panicking from Horror or when wounded - hi Khalid, yes, I'm looking to you), he can cast spells your specialist mage can't and use all arcane wands and scrolls, can pickpocket most NPC on first try and identify any unknown items (at the max level, 10). He isn't fighter - but you can give him halberd and he will help from a second row, or just have it for defense while singing - his single role is to buff party with the song and sometimes cast spell.
I do feel obliged to point out that if you adventure with Minsc and Keldorn for a while, Minsc learns how to control his rage with Keldorn's help.
Well, TIL
Is that +1 luck from bard song thing confirmed? All the materials say the vanilla bard song only protects from fear. Has this been data mined?
Yes, it was
Whoa! Thanks, this changes a lot.
I often use Garrick, he is also easy to recruit. One thing nice about bards : they are also nearly as useful naked. They don't require any gear to do what they do.
You have a level 1 character, that will always be somewhat useful without any investment.
I generally go solo until 32k (about half an hour 🙂) and then recruit Garrick - he will jump to bard L6 and can pickpocket nearly everybody, gets T2 spells (and some free spells learned) so I can do early run to Ulgoth's Beard for some ... shopping ... with five fingers discount 🙂 also, he can learn Friends so he will be an official face of any party with low charisma 🙂
That said, he is useful from L1 - his song alone is massive buff because it basically eliminates lowest value from a weapon damage table raising average damage output of the party. And protection against fear is invaluable - that's why I recruit him first before going up to FAI; our friend who waits for you at FAI's steps loves to start his ... interaction ... with the party by casting Horror.
I was wondering about this. I play BG1 now after completing BG2 and i loved using Korgan with his Rage that makes him immune to so much stuff. When i saw now, that Minsc has the same skill i was really confused when his circle suddenly went yellow from it.
Is this because of his class? Or does he have some special "ability" that makes his Rage not working the same way? Is it because of his stats?
In "lore": he wanted to be berserker but couldn't control his outburst of rage.
In game: when BG1 came out, there were no kits, no berserker ability. So they used already coded "normal" Rage (similar to Blood Rage which was used in IWD later) to give players an option against early game enchantment spells users (like, sirines).
At least, that's how I understand it but I can be wrong 🙂
So it shares the symbol but is different from Korgans Rage in BG2.
Exactly. Also, barbarian's rage is different from berserker's.
Minsc's Rage)
Korgan's - standard berserker's - Enrage
Barbarian's Rage
Minsc is the character whose player is super fun but not an optimizer, and in fact likes to make suboptimal choices if they seem fitting to his theme. Or, alternately, he is the 9 year old brother of the player you want in the campaign and mom will get mad if you don't include him.
The brother is actually playing Boo and Minsc is a hireling.
Xan isn't badly built, but sadly built. He should be a fighter mage or something that can take better advantage of his cool moonblade.
Rasaad suffers from terrible class syndrome, but I'm not sure that's a build problem.
Eldoth is possibly the character I'm least likely to ever take. He's the worst bard in a game where bards aren't super great to begin with, and to take him you also need to commit space to a very average thief.
Eldoth is super weird because his special ability is creating arrows and yet he has second worst dexterity in the game. So is he supposed to be an archer or not?
And poor Skie was just... weirdly thought out. I've read somewhere that the devs thought people would let the companions die and replace them with new ones, in which case you kinda might want Skie late in the game rather than go thief-less, but:
In order to get her you have to have Eldoth along, and for that you need to have a space left open in Cloakwood, where you get three much better party members in rapid succession, and chances of keeping Eldoth are near to nil. And, in vanilla game, you can't send him out of the Cloakwood to a more accessible place for later. Recruiting Skie feels like a very complicated easter egg, which would make sense if she were a cool and powerful character. Which she isn't.
If you are desperate for a thief in the city, there's Alora who is better at everything.
Temples offer raise dead so the whole "you were supposed to replace them" thing doesn't really hold water.
To me the moonblade works for Xan because he's an enchanter. Like the whole point of him is to disable the enemy, and then he uses the moonblade to finish off enemies.
As a Ranger he gets two free pips in Two Weapon Style.
So him using 2H weapons has no baring on that.
Two Handed weapon style only needs one pip, and since each weapon type of his can only go to two, not seeing an issue with options.
The thing about BG is, no matter the stats or base build, every companion can do well. You dont have to Min Max to succeed.
My dad likes to play characters that have no bonuses from ability scores. e.g. 15 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 10 Wis, 10 Cha
15 str is op, can use full plate with large shields.
But no attack/damage bonuses. He didn't consider being able to equip armor the class is normally allowed to equip a "bonus."
For 90% of players his suboptimal build won't be an issue. Give him a two handed sword & his strength means he hits like a truck. At max difficulty I'd skip him but most people don't play like that. Arguably in BG2 Keldorn is a better choice for powergaming... but Keldorn is boring.
On the other hand, Minsc yells and it gets reallllyyyy old!
Squeaky wheel gets the kick!
Jump on my sword while you still can, Evil. I won't be as GENTLE.
Other than the yelling I like Minsc’s catchphrases more than most.
Jaheira’s “yes omnipresent authority figure” is great. Edwin’s "I do not understand this 'mouse magic' that makes me do your bidding!" Is great too
Oh I detest omnipresent authority figure.
Almost all of the things they say when you select them get old really quick. Especially the ones where they act like you’re annoying for having them in your party.
If someone gave you a unicorn for your birthday, you'd complain that it farted.
That’s what’s great about it 😂 they are annoyed at your point and click shenanigans
Anomen has two pips in spears, that he can't use
IIRC one of his dialogues mentions killing a giant with a spear? I appreciate those pips as an immersive touch - like he was an actual fighter before he dueled and swore whatever oath prohibits clerics from edged weapon use.
Yes I remember that line. Still the pip is wasted.
Those pips were from his Fighter class before dualing into Cleric. In old PnP a player could do that... a silly mistake! It fits on Anomen ;)
Minsc certainly can wield magic weapons. What are you talking about?
His weapon proficiencies are suboptimal, but certainly serviceable. IMO, dual wielding maces is a preferred build.
Yeah I realized right after I posted.
Minsc's 2 weapon fighting is part of him being a ranger. Realistically he should have the berzerker class and focus 2 handers but at the time it was decided to make him an unhinged ranger
Minsc was an unhinged Ranger in BG1 before any kits or 2e classes were added. His original proficiencies were Large Sword (1h, 2h, Bastard), Spiked Weapon (Flail, Morningstar), and Axes. At higher levels he doesn't get Spiked Weapon or Axes and gets Small Sword (Daggers, Short Swords) and Bows. No styles existed.
I think BG2 should have retconned him into Berserker and updated his proficiencies to match. He deserved that treatment to make his gameplay match his character, but they kept him as a ranger and had to adjust to the ranger kit basics.
What they should've done, if anything, was not changing the class identity that's been central to Minsc's character from the beginning; it was to just make the Berserker kit available to all Warrior classes like it was in 2nd Edition PnP.
Agree. They even gave him a special berserker skill. Just make him a berserker or a barbarian.
The berserker class wasn't a part of the original game
Do not cite the old magics to me... I was there when it took a belt of 5 CDs...
Minsc is based on a PnP character from one of the original devs. He was always meant to be a ranger.
Easily Rasaad for me. His class is already borderline untenable at higher difficulties, but to give him 14 CON is just brutal. Just what he needs: even fewer HP for an already fragile class. The meh STR and DEX scores are just icing on the cake (though these are more easily remedied with items).
twf is given to all rangers for free
Rangers can't use most scrolls and wands anyway
Worst is probably Tiax with his piss poor wisdom giving him a single extra lvl 1 spell and his piss poor strength meaning he can't really do damage with the one ranged weapon he can use and can't even be used as a mule
Who is yall? A NPC?
Y’all = BioWare, Beamdog, and everybody enjoying that modded life.
He's technically better wielding duals, but even in BG2, I can't possibly imagine Minsc wearing anything else but a Two-Handed Sword, guy was made for it.
Coran. Coran is the worst built companion in the whole saga.
Nothing about him is legal. Longbow mastery? 20 DEX? Who designed this guy? Didn't they have a manual? And most of all, what the hell is that portrait?!
Minsc is one of the most optimal characters in the game he was originally designed for, which is BG2: Shadows of Amn. High strength / dex / constitution, racial enemy being Vampires which you will meet all the time, being restricted to Weapon Specialization didn't matter because original BG2 weapon grandmastery was genuinely not a huge difference (it lacked a point of damage and extra half APR). He can dual wield for free because he is a Ranger, he has a blunt weapon proficiency for clay golems which you immediately met in Chateau Irenicus, and the game gives you good two handed swords in the first two chapters and a really fantastic one late in the game. Pick-up-and-play guy you can use from the start and handily win on any difficulty setup.
It turns out, however, that if you scrutinize him through two decades of community optimization discourse, WeiDU or EE induced tweaks to Grandmastery, everyone and their grandma knowing that vampires aren't shit because the developers gave you like six different "instantly kill, or be completely impervious, to this undead" tools he is no longer "good".
In that same vein, the worst actual built character is, naturally, Keldorn, because through metagaming I already know how to dispel everything in the game, he has bad Dexterity and doesn't have 18 Strength, and I modded away everything that makes Carsomyr and Inquisitor good, so he is indubitably the worst built character in the game.
But why? Longbows aren't optimized. Why make him built worse?
Xan always annoyed me- why isnt he a fighter-mage, so he can use his moonblade properly?
Shar Teel with the crazy low constitution stands out too.
There arent any in BG2- all very well rounded
I’ve wondered why xan got that moon blade but couldn’t use it.
Shar teel is one of my favs. Give her two long swords and let her plow through things. The con isn’t to big of a hinderance if you get her AC down a bit. Her griping about being tired after a short travel is irksome though 😂
It’s why he’s so depressive.
I do appreciate the Xan BG2 mod gives the option of Xan Fighter/Mage with a slight update to the Moonblade accordingly that makes it fun.
Xan Eldritch Scion is flavourful
Playing the same mod right now. Love that you have to work to fix his con/str, although from what i've read the moonblade upgrade should be quite op (+1 apr iirc?), so i think i will give him a non belm offhand.
I prefered the original voice ofc but it's serviceable and i was quite surprised he has some banter with another mod companion (Adrian)
I made him a Fighter/Mage in my current playthrough.
Shar Teel have same constitution HP bonus than Dorn or Coran. She's great even with “just" 10 HP by level.
And you can dual class to thief which is not a bad choice
I love Minsc and other characters that aren't "optimal." They have more "character." Besides, Minsc was originally a pen and paper character prior to the BG series. Also, don't forget that in the original BG1 the weapon's proficiencies were different than BG2, and later, the EE versions.
Mace proficiency can be helpful when you need a blunt weapon. All my fighters/frontliners carry one. Starstorm dual wielding with kundane can be pretty good for minsc.
They don't even have 18s across the board! What kind of moron rolled these characters?
Minsc isnt bad in bg1…
the worst is propably Quayle? Eldoth, Rasaad, Shar-Teel as melee are pretty bad
What's wrong with minsc? Give him lilarcor and you have the true og experience with no issue to finish tob
In PnP AD&D player characters were build by rolling their stats and most were far from being 'perfect'. It feels right for me that companions have some good stats for their class but not minimaxed.
For BG1,
Garrick and Eldoth - bards aren't great in BG1 all round but these guys really do suck, with no meaningful stat bonuses to anything. Just give them wands and pretend they're gunslinging cowboys.
Rasaad - plain bad, probably taking Minsc's crown for worst NPC.
Quayle - bad mage + bad cleric. If you want a nice hat bring Tiax. Again just give him wands.
Jaheria - Never really gets going in BG1. Sub par on the front line, and if you want offensive druid magic Faldorn is way better. Just taking up space.
For BG2? They're all fairly usable except for Minsc and Rasaad imo (not including the bear).
Surprised to see Jaheira. She was my front line tank on my last playthrough and she was pretty awesome even though she doesn’t get iron skins yet. I equipped her with dexterity gauntlets and gave her dagger of venom and a shield. She was a great tank for me having something like -8/9 AC. Can’t remember exactly now. I’m still using her in the same role in SOD and she’s at -10 AC and has iron skins so she feels pretty invincible
Shes perfectly fine for tanking if built/buffed for it
Yeah possibly a little unfair, she's amazing in BG2 once things like Ironskins come into play. I just find her fustrating in 1 as the XP cap kicks in just before all the fun fighter/druid stuff kicks in.
Yeah I mean there are arguably better tanks. Khalid has more hp as a pure fighter but in my experience, there was never a fight where I needed that extra hp. So I found it more beneficial to use him as a backup tank but mostly just shooting arrows because those are better than slings. I feel like if you put her in the backline with a sling she’s very lackluster.
If you’re running the cannon party, she’s definitely the best option for dagger of venom which is one of the best weapons in BG1. And when I engage mages, I just send Khalid in first while she and/or Dynaheir are stripping buffs and debuffing and then one hit with dagger makes them obsolete.
Same here I always use Khalid for ranged primarily if I take him, but haven't done canon party in a long time. But I'd say Kagain is top dog on the front line by far. Dagger of Venom is nice, but since the poison nerf it's a shadow of the good old days.
I think you'd have stronger party with Kagain + Faldorn.
My next playthrough I plan on going with a stronger party. Like Kagain and Edwin. Might pick up Xzar and Montaron too and go full evil. I haven’t had to juggle my reputation before so that might be interesting
Cmon...Wilson is awesome. I mean...he's a bear. Do I really need to explain? 😃
I have had fun before with Wilson romping along beside me.
Bards are probably better than pure mages in BG1. They can use crossbows or longbows, have better thAC0 and HP, and wands are main arcane power with sleep, fireball and paralysis.
Quayle is probably the best caster in BG1, with many spells available. Yes he doesn't have wisdom divine spells bonus, but the base spells are a great addition to his arcane spells. Having divine spells up to level 4 is totally worth losing two level 5 arcane spells.
Am I the only one who gives the man a pair of flails to be the main tank? FoA and DoE plus armor of the faith and hardiness, tied for best physical damage resistance in the game! (Aside from Jahiera with the Earth Elemental token HLA in SCS.)
Edwin's low dexterity and weapon prof in quarterstaff is annoying in bg1, though the dex is easily fixable with the gauntlets from the gnoll stronghold
Kinda think you're doing it wrong if you're worried about your mage's AC. Edwin is one of if not the strongest character in the game btw.
Which is fine in 2 or late bg1 but stoneskin scrolls arent exactly common and mirror images can only provide so much luck. Xans extra 2 ac might be more handy until that point. But before then mages are scary frail and Xzars lack of blur and image is downright debilitating
I don't see much need for stoneskin or mirror images either. imo if you are positioning your characters competently your pure mages should not take any damage ever, or even be targeted. Pretty much the only exceptions are things like the tahazzar fight where you are basically ambushed.
Quayle and Tiax.
Boo doesn't like way you're talking
Some time ago I asked why all Rangers in the game use 2 handed weapons although Rangers have 2 weapon fighting skilled. I was told that in original BG1 there was no dual wield and you had to manually change from eeapon to bow, even unequipping your shield so it made more sense to give them weapons with no shields. I don't know how to put a link in here.
Nalia.
mages by default are obviously awesome. but her thief levels are basically unusable past her keep and you have to either pick up another thief or burn potions and her only remaining ring slot to get use out of them. genuinely pointless dual class.
Minsc isn't poorly built, you're just inexperienced.
I’m not supposed to encounter trolls until I get to BG2.
Well yeah but then again I wouldn't join Minsc even if he had maxed every stat.
There is bigger chance that some day I'm gonna join Anomen, and that says something. At least Anomen doesn't seems to be written by 9 year old.
BG1 seems like where you'd find the worse characters. (Not that it matters unless you're doing LoB or SCS)
Anyway, Eldoth comes to mind. Jaheira, Montaron, Quayle, and Tiax all have pretty meh stats I'd argue, though you can still get plenty of use out of them.
Bg1: everyone who is not Coran or Vic sucks in comparison. Minsc is an overrated one-trick pony and maintains this status throughout all the BG titles. Edwin has a nice necklace but he's a corny mf that I haven't liked for 26yr now, though he does get a lot better in BG1
Bg1: nobody is specced that well but that's okay because the most powerful builds (eg anomen) are such annoying people that I would never use em anyway. I also have a few crucial mods such as Tactics, SCS on at all times - I believe one of them has allowed respeccing when NPCs join, so I've been running with that for the longest time now. I think it is vital after 50, 100 playthroughs.