Shouldn’t Ned have known eventually he would get called up to the Big Leagues? It was well known Bobby B didn’t like/trust Tywin or Jaime for that role.
Jon Arryn was born two days before the Crone herself so obviously he probably wouldn’t have been around forever.
My theory is had Jon started getting sick and becoming bed ridden that he would have encouraged the King to get the ball rolling on his replacement and Elvis would have insisted on Ned anyways. Maybe Jon would have tried to encourage him to pick Stannis especially if they (Jon and Stannis) were solid on their Bastard theory by then. And maybe Cersei would have been at her breaking point then and planned for a funeral for 2.
What say you all?
Yes only Ned had the experience, reputation and loyalty. He’d also be invested in Joffrey’s reign due to Sansa being wed to him.
I don’t think either was an actual candidate but It’d be absolutely hilarious if Robert chose Renly over Stannis. Stannis was already fuming when he heard Ned was chosen.
Nonsense Stannis and Renly both had experience, reputation and loyalty. There was Also Tywin and Jamie who he could have chosen.
Ned’s is an experienced commander, lord over a large realm, in his prime, is well liked by his vassals, and loyal. Renly is only 20 when Jon Arryn dies. Stannis has a poor reputation and few accomplishments.
Jaime being chosen is a nonsense threat made by Robert to Ned. Tywin is a legitimate option but Robert’s already sick of being surrounded by Lannisters.
I think that marrying Sansa to Joffrey was the first big mistake Ned made.
The second he became hand he should have told Robert that Margery should have been Joffrey's bride.
Baratheon + Tyrell alliance is the next best thing to keep the realms in line after Dragons.
I agree but with the info Ned had marrying Sansa would make her son relative to the Starks, Tullys, and Arryns. It was a good match.
The Reach and Martells couldn’t hope to beat that + the Baratheons and Lannisters.
That is true. I had not thought about that.
He could have asked that an alternative is made and Myrcella marries Robb. That also connects the two houses.
However, Sansa/Joff was not a bad match at all. It was also an honor that his daughter becomes Queen. The North could only profit from having a Northern Queen. If Joff was not who he was, they would make a match songs are sung about.
I think that Myrcella marrying Robb could cause problems since Ned already married outside of the North (Robb getting engaged to the Freys was an exception because of war).
She could marry Bran, or Rickon . It would not connect any heirs, but it would connect the houses.
I am not under the impression that the unwritten policy/rule is "North to Northerners". I think they share a religion, customs, problems, there is actual proximity between houses etc. so it is more logical that they end up marrying into Northern houses, but if they arranged a bethrotal in the South, I doubt anyone would care as the woman would become a Stark. She is literally in the possession of her husband. So I can see Myrcella/Robb as an actual possibility that Ned would prefer to Joff/Sansa. I can even see Cersei agreeing to it, as she would be close to Casterly Rock. I just have no idea if they would leave the girl behind to get used to the North, as Cat's lady in waiting and "student" (Does she have one? Would Cat agree to that??) or would they take her to KL only to "return" her later. In any case, the Starks would fare better in the scenario, they would all live likely.
That is not what I meant.
You need to marry within your realm to solidify your power in the region.
The Tully's were actually struggling with this because all of their marriages were outside of their realm. Their lords were often uncooperative, and there was the whole Frey thing. Had Edmure married a Frey, or a Frey vessel to keep them in line, things would end up very differently.
Had Robb married Alys Karstark before the events of GOT for example, it would also have saved him of a lot of trouble by having the Karstarks being more cooperative.
???????? Why should Margery be joffreys bride? They don't need the tyrell at all, they have a block of 5 kingdoms. They already kept the realms inline just fine for 15 years.
Binding the Tyrells to the throne means they won't support Targaryen restoration.
Well that is sort of irrelevant to Robert and Ned. They were long dead by the time any of that came to fruition.
Unless they were told when they would die, I don't see how that's relevent.
Why would they he concerned about a Targ resurgence though? Its been like 15 years of essentially zero concern of it. Yes, there is a deep conspiracy but we as the reader are privileged to know it. No one in their right mind would suspect it nor plan a marriage around it. Though, binding the tyrells to the crown is a good idea for other reasons.
Robert was pissing himself at the thought of a Dothraki-backed Targ invasion. Binding the Tyrells to the Baratheons so they don't join against them makes sense.
Pissing himself with glee, man was ready and able to hurl them back into the sea with ease. Even if they invade, it;s doubtful that other houses would support a filthy barbarian invasion. Last time the tyrell were against him they did fk all anyway, insane to worry about this and plan around it.
Robert sent an assassin to kill a pregnant girl because of it. He was not "pissing himself with glee".
If they get a Queen out of it, I think the Tyrells would support almost anything. Besides the Dothraki would be attacking Baratheon-allied lands, not the Reach.
Hmm, I dont remember him pissing himself honestly. More that he wanted to cut out any possibility before things got threatening. But yes I do agree that it was at least on his mind.
The Tyrells are a good match but not a royal match. Really, Sansa was the best option for Joff. Makes me wonder how come Cat and Ned did not expect that?
Ned knew a lot of things he chose to ignore to live inside his bubble. We must remember he was both traumatised and disillusioned by the Rebellion and developed a distaste for anything south of the Neck and chose to find comfort in the Old ways of the North. That's the Watsonian reason, atleast.
Doylistically, Ned must remain clueless so he can be the audience surrogate and GRRM can ease us into the story-world. Just another one of his sacrifices for the greater good.
I agree that Ned was willfully ignorant. In fact, if Robert let him choose between marriage A) Joff/Sansa and marriage B) Robb/Myrcella, he would take option B, just to stay in the North.
I always figured everything Robert said to Ned should have come as absolutely zero surprise. I think it was pretty obvious he'd want Ned to be Hand and Joffrey to marry Sansa. People would have been theorising about that since Sansa was born tbh, particularly Catelyn. The only possible better match at the time of the books is Margaery and Robert doesn't give a shit about the Tyrells.
He trusted Tywin enough to make him warden of the west and Jaime warden of the east. In the end, this is why Ned accepted the offer for the Handship, to blunt the influence of House Lannister at court. Whether or not Ned had considered any of this before Arryn died is questionable.
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But they did have a falling out over Robert's reaction to the death of Aegon and Rhaenys. So it does kinda work that Ned would be surprised imo.
Didn’t mean to leave obviously and probably in there. Oh well. “Words are wind” or whatever Hodor said
Ned was a reasonable Hand. The Lannisters only won against him because Cersei killed Robert. It was the only good move Cersei did in the whole story that actually worked.
Hell, Tywin should be grateful she killed him. When Tywin sent the Mountain to attack the Riverlands and Hoster send word to KL, Tywin broke the King's Peace! That was sacred only below guests' rights and kinslaying. Ned did the smartest move and sent a group of warriors in the name of the King. It would have been better if he called the king's banners but I'm not sure he had that kind of power. But had Robert survived, he would have called the other six kingdom's armies and Lannisters would have been fucked (especially after Ned tells Robert about Cersei's children not being his... Bye, bye Jaime and Cersei). That's a "legal" attack on the richest kingdom. Nobody would have spared a lance against them.
I doubt the king's banners would have been called yet. Tywin sent the Mountain specifically so he could have plausible deniability like he did with Elia and her children. Tywin can't even claim it was retaliation for Cat taking Tyrion because Robert had already told Ned to have Tyrion released, so the "King" has sorted it stop complaining.
Not a single person in the realm thought Tywin was innocent in the matter of Elia and her children. Ned's deep-seated personal hatred of Tywin Lannister stems from that obvious act (which BTW is the reason Ned became Hand, Robert threatened to further empower the Lannisters).
Never said anybody actually believed Tywin, just that he often uses Gregor as a "mad dog" so he can pretend at innocence where there isn't any.
When did Robert say he didn't trust Tywin or Jaime for the role? He agreed to foster his pseudo brother Sweet Robin with Tywin.
And he names Jaime warden of the east.
He probably assumed he might’ve picked one of his brothers that are already on his councils
Ned more or less isolated himself from the realm at large after the rebellion. He only showed up again for the greyjoy revolt before promptly going back home.
I don't think that it is that unreasonable for him to be caught by surprise by Robert naming him hand. They haven't spoken in 9 or so years by the time of AGOT.
...Elvis? (or is this just a funny way of saying 'the King'?)
In the book, Ned specifically thinks that Robert's offer to become Hand didn't surprise him. He didn't have a reason to think about it though until after Jon Arryn died.
And sure, Jon was really old, but who was to say he wouldn't live as long as Walder Frey? He's specifically said to have been robust for his age, and he had good reason to want to stay alive at least long enough for Sweetrobin to become an adult. His death was sudden and unexpected (what with being caused by poison and all) and Ned looked at him like a father so he probably avoided thinking about it.
Not sure what Jon would have done if he'd become too ill to continue as Hand but I suspect he might well have argued for Stannis instead of Ned. Jon seems to have prioritised stability (he's the one who suggested the Cersei marriage to bring the Lannisters onside, and he's the one who went to Dorne to try to soothe the Martells) and I'm sure he realised that Stannis resented being passed over for Storm's End.
no, he didnt have to go. he has the whole power of the North. doubt robert would start a war over it
I think Ned was hiding his head in the snow. Of course it was inevitable. It was very likely that his BFF will summon him to KL at some point. It was also likely that his BFF would want to connect the two families. I think Ned expected a bethrotal between Robb and Myrcella. Or he should have expected. Or at least he could have expected Tommen and Arya to wed and go live in Casterly Rock (and take Lannister surname since Tywin has no heirs).
No, weirdly. Because the odds are not insane that Robert might have predeceased Jon Arryn. He was whoring and drinking and feasting, any of which could have killed him. Improperly prepared or poisoned foods, VD, alcohol poisoning, you name it.
Jon Arryn by contrast was temperate, active and still in remarkably good health for someone of his age (apparently the Dick van Dyke of Westeros).
Addendum 1: Also, does this mean Walder Frey was born 3 days before the Crone?