Since it is widely speculated Dany and Jon are first two heads of the dragon, who do you think is the third head? (Or if you think Dany and/or Jon is not a dragon, who do you think are 3 heads of the dragon)?
I feel like this is the most plausible answer. Even if he's a Blackfire and not a Targ, he still has Valyrian blood, which means he could likely bond a dragon. Three "Targaryen" claimants, three heads, three dragons.
Are the Greystarks Starks? Are the Penroses and Tarths also Targaryens? Just because there's a Targaryen in the lineage doesn't mean they're Targaryens; they're another house.
Why? Cadet branches are essentially new houses that develop independently, even if the Blackfyres were considered Targaryen at the beginning, the war caused a complete break, by your logic the Lannisters are Lydden and the Greystarks/Karstarks are Starks, that's not how it works, and if we go by the jus sanguinis argument, the houses I mentioned earlier are also Targaryen.
edit: To make the example more illustrative, in agot there are 3 Baratheon branches, they are not the same house, although they were from the same family; Another example is the Beaufort house, which comes from a Plantagenet king, Edward III, and is not even considered a cadet branch
People view the Blackfyres as Targaryens because Daemon was Targaryen on both sides despite his bastard origins. And they’ve been shown to have inherited Targaryen genetics. I don’t think it’s really about the literal family politics.
While the Lannisters didn’t become Lyddens, it is mentioned that they did become considered an Andal house after Joffrey took the Lannister name.
Look, I'm not denying that they have Targaryen blood, because that's a fact. I'm just saying they aren't Targaryens, especially fAegon, if he is, since it's been over a century since his Targaryen heritage. My point was purely political. Even after the legitimation, Daemon remained a Blackfyre because he had already founded his own cadet branch, which politically isn't the same house, even if they share the same blood. And this opens up other precedents for discussion: whether the Blackfyres, in their current situation, still have any right to the throne from the Targaryen side, or if they are being overlooked in favor of other houses.
Perhaps these three will form an alliance, with each one becoming a dragon. Probably one of them (with a dragon) will sacrifice itself to save Daenerys.
This one is resurrected by the White Shirts, just like in the series (the difference is that there's a rider on the dragon). In the final battle, Daenerys survives and marries whichever Targaryen is still alive. The end.
The question is that the Targaryen to be sacrificed might be Jon Snow, because Martin has built a whole archetype of a kind and honorable person around Jon, but Martin hates when a good person prevails in the end, so I think he's the one who will be resurrected a second time, but using the power of the "Others" instead of Rllor.
Other point that further supports this theory is that whoever is resurrected by Rllor becomes a fire wight (that is, they are as undead as the Others' army and cannot reproduce to perpetuate the lineage because they are a dead body).
But also more likely Dani will let him near her dragons than anyone else, since she buys the propaganda. Also, there are tons of theories about Nettles's background, and Valyrian blood is more common for dragon riders.
Because Arianne's preview chapters are teeing Aegon up to marry Arianne instead of Daenerys, and if so, Daenerys and Aegon are going to fight instead of ally. Moreover, both Aegon and Daenerys' arcs thus far have primed them to be fearful and resentful of each other rather than cooperative; see Aegon's reaction to Tyrion's Cyvasse speech and Daenerys' prophecy from Quaithe to beware the Mummer's Dragon. Moreover, the lie that Aegon is Rhaegar's son instead of Illyrio's (which he almost certainly is) is the sort of issue that is effectively placed to break trust between Daenerys and Aegon; when she figures it out, Daenerys will be convinced Illyrio betrayed her to place a new usurper, his son, on the Iron Throne. Daenerys will land in Westeros with all the rage and fury of a woman scorned.
Finally, Arianne and Doran's arc in AFFC is structured as a Greek tragedy where Doran has poured all his energies into a fifteen year policy of caution and restraint, hoping to spare Dorne the ravages the War of the Five Kings inflicted on the rest of Westeros, and that dragons have inflicted on Dorne in the past. Yet when Doran finally acts, he has unleashed forces he cannot control; his play in Meereen fails utterly in binding Daenerys or her dragons to Dorne, and despite this, his actions have motivated his daughter to behave extraordinarily recklessly, acting to preempt the wooing of Daenerys she incorrectly believes Quentyn is undertaking, a counterwooing of her own with Aegon that locks her and Aegon into enemy status with Daenerys. The tragedy is that all of Doran's caution will have failed to prevent the very disaster he hoped to avert, a cataclysmic Second Dance that will devastate Dorne (and likely, given Martin's extensive attention paid to the innocence of the children playing in the Water Gardens in AFFC, culminate in a horrific sack of the Gardens).
Doran's actions can be summed up in Barristan's sad verdict given to Quentyn:
"Your father keeps his secrets well, Prince Quentyn. Too well, I fear. If the queen had known of this pact in Qarth, she might never have turned aside for Slaver’s Bay, but you came too late."
Doran's caution and secrecy protects Dorne for fifteen years as he plots the downfall of the Usurper, but in the very moment of his victory, it destroys him by upending his plans, and causes the very tragedy he sought to avert.
Notwithstanding, Daenerys also is almost certain to play a significant role in the climax of ADOS, a joint attack by the last three dragons, mounted by Daenerys on Drogon, Jon on Rhaegal, and Tyrion/Bran on Viserion, on the heart of winter, and bringing an end to the Long Night. For Daenerys to be in position to do this, Aegon, being Daenerys' enemy, will have to die, and so he will.
For Tyrion truthers I have but one simple question: why did notorious Tyrion-stans David and Dan not make him the third head of the dragon in the show? George revealed the endings for all the major characters to them, so is the argument that they decided not to go in this direction? Or are we still coping about them not getting the 'true' ending info from George in big 26?
The three heads of the Dragon was not even really a thing in the show, barely mentioned (if at all). It makes lot of sense to me that they thought simply that it was too much trouble to introduce his Targeryen inheritance even if they knew it was meant to be in the books
I think it is probably fAegon, but with the introduction of the Dragon Horns, one might not need to be a Targ to be a Dragon Rider.
Also, I wouldn't put that much attention to the prophecies we haven't heard in detail. As you see from the Valonqar, it is qute possible that someone who receives a prophecy just reads in it what they wanted to it. IT is possible the prophecy was already fulfilled by the rebirth of Dragons that was caused by a Targ girl being exiled to Essos where she could sacrifice her husband, herself and a witch to the flames.
I'm still not sure what the dragon has three heads even means.
"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.
Head one is suggested to be Rhaegar's son Aegon. And Rhaegar said "one more" which seems clear to me Aegon is the second. Who is the first? Rhaenys? Who is the third? Jon? Dany? Rhaenys is dead, so a new head joins.
Aemon thinks the dragons prove Dany is in the middle of this.
Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. "I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger."
He even thinks it could be him.
He said the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler, whatever that meant. He asked Sam to read for him from a book by Septon Barth, whose writings had been burned during the reign of Baelor the Blessed. Once he woke up weeping. "The dragon must have three heads," he wailed, "but I am too old and frail to be one of them. I should be with her, showing her the way, but my body has betrayed me."
So it doesn't need to be Rhaegar's children, it can be someone of Targaryen ancestry. There could be many candidates if that's the case.
The prophecy just talks about "three heads of the dragon", of Targaryen blood, but no one knows who they are.
First Aegon the Conqueror thought that it was him and his two sisters.
Later on, Rhaegar thought that it was his three kids. The ones he had with Elia (Rhaenys and Aegon), and the third one whe planned to have with Lyanna.
I think that the three heads will end being the big three: Dany, Jon and Tyrion. Tyrion will be revealed to have been sired by Aerys' rape of Joana. To be honest, I don't like this theory much, but I think George is going for it.
The other candidates with Targaryen blood are far to distant, and also wouldn't fit with the prophecy that the prince that was promised would be born out of the line of Aerys and Rhaella Targaryen.
Tyrion will be revealed to have been sired by Aerys' rape of Joana.
Thematically, I don't think it adds to the story, on the contrary: Tyrion not being Tywin's son would ruin and cheapen:
- Tyrion's complex and painful relationship with his father
- Jon's heritage reveal (two secret Targs are too many secret Targs, especially when we have the whole FAegon aka Blackfyre pretending to be a Targ in play)
-It would make Tywin way less pathetic. The fact that he, the one who has always obsessed with preserving House Lannister's legacy and making his family dominate over others, has doomed his House precisely by despising his own blood, the son that is his spitting image, would lose its significance if he is a Targ.
I can see what reasons people have to doubt Tyrion's heritage, but thematically, the idea doesn't fit with what Martin imho wants to convey about Tyrion and Tywin's dynamics
The other candidates with Targaryen blood are far to distant,
The third head of the dragon doesn't need to be necessarily a Targ, in Martin's words. It could very well be Bran, who is the most powerful Greenseer, or Euron with the Horn.
also wouldn't fit with the prophecy that the prince that was promised would be born out of the line of Aerys and Rhaella Targaryen.
So you mean three heads of the dragon = 3 dragonriders = 3 PTWP? I think it is way more ambiguous. For example, perhaps we will have 3 dragonriders and 3 heroes, but they will be separate groups of people.
We only know the woods witch say Aerys and Rhaella had to wed because PTWP would come from their line... just with Dany being one of the AA figures the prophecy would be complete. I personally feel the dragonriders will be: 1) Dany, 2)Jon, 3) Euron/Bran. The 3 Azor Ahai figures: Dany, Arya, Jon (representating fire, ice, and both). But it is very difficult to ascertain: what/when/how the Targaryens heard about the three heads of the dragon? Because we only know their interpretation, and we know they are prone to make mistakes in prophecies (the obsession with a prince, when the original word was gender neutral, for example)
The prophecy just talks about "three heads of the dragon", of Targaryen blood,
Was it Targaryen blood? I think I missed that. Thanks.
and the third one whe planned to have with Lyanna.
Was that his plan?
Tyrion will be revealed to have been sired by Aerys' rape of Joana.
What evidence is there of rape?
The other candidates with Targaryen blood are far to distant, and also wouldn't fit with the prophecy that the prince that was promised would be born out of the line of Aerys and Rhaella Targaryen.
We don't know if the prophecy is correct or interpreted correctly. Aemon discussed errors creeping in. There could be more.
We know Aerys lusted for Joana. Barristan reveals that during Tywin's and Joana's wedding he said it was a pity that the first night had been abolished (or in other words, that it was a pity that he couldn't legally rape her). It's also said that he took too many "liberties" during the bedding. And when the twins were born, Aerys jokingly asked Joana if her "high and proud" breast had been ruined by giving milk.
Then there's this quote from AWOIAF: Sadly, the marriage between Aerys II Targaryen and his sister Rhaella was not as happy; though she turned a blind eye to most of the king’s infidelities, the queen did not approve of his “turning my ladies into his whores.” (Joanna Lannister was not the first lady to be dismissed abruptly from Her Grace’s service, nor was she the last).
And finally, there's Tywin's words to Tyrion in ASOS ("Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine.") and the knowledge that Joanna visited court during the year that Tyrion was conceived.
"As you command." The white knight chose his words with care. "Prince Aerys … as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord's right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the … the liberties your father took during the bedding." His face reddened. "I have said too much, Your Grace. I—"
Even Barristan dismissed it as a drunken jape. I don't think this is evidence of sex between the two much less rape.
If you are looking for hard evidence of the rape, of course you won't find it. That's why it's a theory.
But there's evidence that Aerys lusted for Joana. He had means, motive and opportunity. And Joana was, for some reason, suddenly dismissed from Rhaella's service (and Yandel links this event with Aerys treating Rhaella's ladies into his whores).
Yes, but I don't feel great hanging rape on the guy with zero direct evidence or even an accusation from Joanna.
Making someone a whore doesn't mean you had sex with them absent consent. We kinda focus on the bad things he is reported to have done, but keep in mind...
"Viserys was a child, and the queen sheltered him as much as she could. Your father always had a little madness in him, I now believe. Yet he was charming and generous as well, so his lapses were forgiven. His reign began with such promise . . . but as the years passed, the lapses grew more frequent, until . . ."
A charming and generous king could seduce someone rather than force them.
It doesn't have to be Rhaegar's kids. But, according to the prophecy by woods witch, shouldn't it be from both Aerys and Rhaella's line hence they were forced to marry each other?
This has been years, but IIRC there was a somewhat plausible theory that Tyrion could in fact also be a secret Targaryen, and that Tywin suspected it but could never prove it, and that's part of the reason he hates Tyrion so much. I thought it was interesting, but it's been too many years for me to remember the details of it.
Yeah it's from TWOIAF. As far as I can tell, this quote is all there is on the matter:
Jaehaerys and Shaera would have two children, Aerys and Rhaella. On the word of Jenny of Oldstone’s woods witch, Prince Jaehaerys determined to wed Aerys to Rhaella, or so the accounts from his court tell us. King Aegon washed his hands of it in frustration, letting the prince have his way.
I don't understand where OP is getting the exact detail of the three headed dragon's lineage. This quote is from the Aegon V chapter in TWOIAF, which is what the Wiki of Ice and Fire cites as the source for the claim about TPTWP. I couldn't find anything else in there about this.
In the "Tyrion is a Targaeryen" theory, it's The Mad King who raped Tywin's wife and impregnated her with Tyrion, so he would be Dany's brother and Jon's uncle. Same bloodline.
I'm not familiar with the stipulation that the three need to come from the line of Rhaella and Aerys. Where is that from? Regardless, there are only two living people remaining who share that ancestry - or three if you believe fAegon is real, which the prevailing opinion AFAIK is that he isn't. So if you're correct that all three need to descend from both Aerys and Rhaella, then either fAegon really is who he says he is (in which case he's the 3rd) or he's not and the prophecy can not be fulfilled until Jon and/or Daenerys have children.
Well in any case. If your interpretation of the prophecy is true, then it's either fAegon or the prophecy has failed. There are only two (or three potentially) living people who share the ancestry of both of them. So in that case there really isn't much room for speculation.
But also, isn't that just the Targs' interpretation of the prophecy? Like they could just be wrong, no?
Tyrion has dragon dreams, and the timeline matches up entirely for him to be the Mad King's bastard. As much as people hate the theory, I think it's him. But who knows.
it wouldn’t be unbelievably corny if that didn’t happen just for the sake of ‘subverting expectations’, given everything he’s laid down in the books supporting and foreshadowing it
It's not even about subverting expectations for me. I just personally find that GRRM's Tyrion favoritism leads to his character being a little tedious to read sometimes and that would basically be the zenith of all those tendencies which I don't really care for.
I think George can pull it off in a compelling way.
Imagine it like this: Bran’s been training in the Weirwood network. Hours feel like years. He’s changed. No longer a boy.
(This was the proposed theory for how George will account for Bran’s age after the removal of the five year gap).
While Bran’s in this trance, Bloodraven reveals his true intentions: he has a new body to inhabit now. A young one.
Bran and friends escape. Perhaps a reveal of Jojen paste at that point if you subscribe to the theory, and/or time-traveling Bran if you like that one.
They may have escaped, but Bran was still affected, partially deformed by the bits of Bloodraven left in him. He’s got some of his features now—maybe the iconic eyes or white hair.
Just an idea of how things might go in my mind. I don’t expect this theory to play out fully like I predict, but I think there could be some interesting aspects for GRRM to play with there.
But you’re right. He’s really gonna need to thread the needle to make such an idea work… perhaps another cause to the delay of Winds.
You introduce some interesting points. If bloodraven wargs into Bran or something to that effect, I could accept that. If Bran just wheels his ass back to Winterfell and gets a dragon, not cool
Totally agree. He needs a lot of work to get to the point of being compelling imo.
As a last note, there's also a lot of foreshadowing for Bran warging into or riding a dragon. The three-eyed-crow telling him he would never walk again, but he would fly. Obviously might just be referring to warging birds, and I might be reading too much into stuff there, but I don't know. Maybe
Not fAegon, which is described as a mummer's dragon in the prophecy world.
Tyrion fits narratively but there isn't a single valid hint anywhere, while for almost everything else in the series we are flooded by foreshadowing/prophecies/visions. Tyrion is a dwarf, or a lion! Anything figuratively involving him should be pretty easy to spot. His "dragon dream" on the narrow sea is clearly just a dream and not prophetic in the slightest, given the characters involved.
Euron is the kraken, so not him.
If we believe the show and trust the crow's eye's competence there will be two "valid" dragons present at the final battle, so I buy that the dragon "must" have three heads but it will have two, which will complicate things.
Can I speculate there will be no third rider? (Sincere question) Or, is it definitely mandatory that the story reveal the dragon did have three heads? I recognize there is some logic by which this might be true. I am simply the reader who never thought there would be three.
Prophecies will bite your prick off every time, and they almost always have multiple interpretations. I’m still not sure how far we should really trust the “three heads of the dragon will be Azor Ahai/The Last Hero/TPTWP and swoop in to save the day” lens
But assuming there will be three clear Targaryens mirroring Aegon and his sisters, I continue to view Jaime as the character with the most textual basis. It’s clear Tyrion was GRRM’s original plan, but far less evident is whether he stuck with it. Nearly all the big evidence comes from early in the series
Twin Targ Theory is under-discussed in general, though it has its fair share of detractors. I made a recent overview of the arguments for it here. But again, there’s no guarantee George even has a specific heroic trio planned
Tossup between Tyrion and Bran. Do note that neither have significant dragon blood, but both would thematically make a lot of sense as riders of Viserion (second son with maimed dignity and desperate to reclaim it). It's not clear to me how necessary Valyrian heritage is to ride dragons but I wanna say at least one Dance of the Dragons rider had no discernible Valyrian heritage.
If I have to choose, maybe Tyrion, bringing to the fore widespread rumors that he's Aerys' bastard. Do note that if non Valyrians can ride dragons, he doesn't need to be Aerys' bastard in truth, and his story arc probably works better if he isn't. It's enough to fulfill the foreshadowing if Tyrion being a dragonrider revives the rumors.
I mostly think that hyper focusing on the three heads of the dragon, and in particular the need for Targaryen/Valyrian ancestry, is going to spell doom for at least Dany. It’s really unclear to me whether or not Jon will give a shit about his biological father’s magical ambitions.
If you put a gun to my head about which Targaryen descendent could complete the Jon/Dany power team? Probably Brienne. She’s someone no one would expect based on appearances but she is pretty explicitly destined to defeat the Great Other.
Euron. The false dragon. The charlatan. If not, I’d say Tyrion but its not down to any dragon blood but his own intellect and interest in dragonlore, being the Nettles of 300 AC.
I hate tyrion Targaryen but I admit there is ample evidence, as well as the fact GRRM loves him so he might just make him a dragonrider for that alone. I just have to add do you think story needs another secret targ. Given the time since the last book and the years of theorising, I feel like we're all just dismissing how huge a moment it is that Jon is a secret targ. He's one of our protagonists and his identity has been a lie for 5 books. Another secret targ would throw shit all over that moment.
In world it would be like:
"Guys, Neds Stark bastard is back from the dead and he's actually Rhaegar's son!"
"That's old news keep up, the imp isn't Tywins son but actually the Mad King's bastard."
"Wait, then who's this guy who's been crowned in King's Landing?"
"He's Rhaegar's son aswell"
The world of fire and fire would be a more apt name.
Dany & Jon without a doubt, and for the third head — i think it’s probably Tyrion, but i also think that there will probably be more than three people who will end up potentially filling this prophecy, and it’ll be more in retrospect that we see who it is — i could see Bran, fAegon or even Arya potentially fitting, too. i really really really don’t feel there will ever be a moment where it’ll be stated that ‘x’ characters are the three heads.
people in the fandom are so cynical about prophecies and magic when we’re reading the dragons, ice monsters Song of Ice and Fire story where magic is only becoming more and more of a presence! Dany literally saw the Red Wedding in the HOTD. i’m sure that prophecies won’t be played straight but acting like the ethos of the story is Religion Bad Magic Bad Prophecies Evil Wrong and Pointless is holding everyone back from the full potential of the story, and from the fun of the story!
If we assume three heads of the dragon = dragonriders, then Bran/and or Euron
Though I think there may be some problem of interpretation, and instead of dragonriders or even Targs, it may refer to three people that will play the role of PTWP/AA
I think it’s one of those ironic Macbeth prophecies with a dozen different meanings
George is fond of this storytelling convention
It would make the most amount of sense for it to be fAegon, right?
I feel like this is the most plausible answer. Even if he's a Blackfire and not a Targ, he still has Valyrian blood, which means he could likely bond a dragon. Three "Targaryen" claimants, three heads, three dragons.
all blackfyres are targaryens.
not all targaryens are blackfyres.
Are the Greystarks Starks? Are the Penroses and Tarths also Targaryens? Just because there's a Targaryen in the lineage doesn't mean they're Targaryens; they're another house.
the blackfyres are literally targaryens, they are the same house, that's how houses work.
Why? Cadet branches are essentially new houses that develop independently, even if the Blackfyres were considered Targaryen at the beginning, the war caused a complete break, by your logic the Lannisters are Lydden and the Greystarks/Karstarks are Starks, that's not how it works, and if we go by the jus sanguinis argument, the houses I mentioned earlier are also Targaryen.
edit: To make the example more illustrative, in agot there are 3 Baratheon branches, they are not the same house, although they were from the same family; Another example is the Beaufort house, which comes from a Plantagenet king, Edward III, and is not even considered a cadet branch
People view the Blackfyres as Targaryens because Daemon was Targaryen on both sides despite his bastard origins. And they’ve been shown to have inherited Targaryen genetics. I don’t think it’s really about the literal family politics.
While the Lannisters didn’t become Lyddens, it is mentioned that they did become considered an Andal house after Joffrey took the Lannister name.
Look, I'm not denying that they have Targaryen blood, because that's a fact. I'm just saying they aren't Targaryens, especially fAegon, if he is, since it's been over a century since his Targaryen heritage. My point was purely political. Even after the legitimation, Daemon remained a Blackfyre because he had already founded his own cadet branch, which politically isn't the same house, even if they share the same blood. And this opens up other precedents for discussion: whether the Blackfyres, in their current situation, still have any right to the throne from the Targaryen side, or if they are being overlooked in favor of other houses.
Perhaps these three will form an alliance, with each one becoming a dragon. Probably one of them (with a dragon) will sacrifice itself to save Daenerys. This one is resurrected by the White Shirts, just like in the series (the difference is that there's a rider on the dragon). In the final battle, Daenerys survives and marries whichever Targaryen is still alive. The end.
The question is that the Targaryen to be sacrificed might be Jon Snow, because Martin has built a whole archetype of a kind and honorable person around Jon, but Martin hates when a good person prevails in the end, so I think he's the one who will be resurrected a second time, but using the power of the "Others" instead of Rllor.
Other point that further supports this theory is that whoever is resurrected by Rllor becomes a fire wight (that is, they are as undead as the Others' army and cannot reproduce to perpetuate the lineage because they are a dead body).
I think Dany will be the one to sacrifice herself against the Others to save Westeros and the Free Cities. Possible the other heads as well.
Valyrian blood requirement to ride a dragon is pure targ propaganda and it’s sad you’ve fallen for it
But also more likely Dani will let him near her dragons than anyone else, since she buys the propaganda. Also, there are tons of theories about Nettles's background, and Valyrian blood is more common for dragon riders.
At most she’s a child of the forest not Valyrian
Since Daenerys almost certainly will kill him, no.
Why would she kill him?
Because Arianne's preview chapters are teeing Aegon up to marry Arianne instead of Daenerys, and if so, Daenerys and Aegon are going to fight instead of ally. Moreover, both Aegon and Daenerys' arcs thus far have primed them to be fearful and resentful of each other rather than cooperative; see Aegon's reaction to Tyrion's Cyvasse speech and Daenerys' prophecy from Quaithe to beware the Mummer's Dragon. Moreover, the lie that Aegon is Rhaegar's son instead of Illyrio's (which he almost certainly is) is the sort of issue that is effectively placed to break trust between Daenerys and Aegon; when she figures it out, Daenerys will be convinced Illyrio betrayed her to place a new usurper, his son, on the Iron Throne. Daenerys will land in Westeros with all the rage and fury of a woman scorned.
Finally, Arianne and Doran's arc in AFFC is structured as a Greek tragedy where Doran has poured all his energies into a fifteen year policy of caution and restraint, hoping to spare Dorne the ravages the War of the Five Kings inflicted on the rest of Westeros, and that dragons have inflicted on Dorne in the past. Yet when Doran finally acts, he has unleashed forces he cannot control; his play in Meereen fails utterly in binding Daenerys or her dragons to Dorne, and despite this, his actions have motivated his daughter to behave extraordinarily recklessly, acting to preempt the wooing of Daenerys she incorrectly believes Quentyn is undertaking, a counterwooing of her own with Aegon that locks her and Aegon into enemy status with Daenerys. The tragedy is that all of Doran's caution will have failed to prevent the very disaster he hoped to avert, a cataclysmic Second Dance that will devastate Dorne (and likely, given Martin's extensive attention paid to the innocence of the children playing in the Water Gardens in AFFC, culminate in a horrific sack of the Gardens).
Doran's actions can be summed up in Barristan's sad verdict given to Quentyn:
Doran's caution and secrecy protects Dorne for fifteen years as he plots the downfall of the Usurper, but in the very moment of his victory, it destroys him by upending his plans, and causes the very tragedy he sought to avert.
Notwithstanding, Daenerys also is almost certain to play a significant role in the climax of ADOS, a joint attack by the last three dragons, mounted by Daenerys on Drogon, Jon on Rhaegal, and Tyrion/Bran on Viserion, on the heart of winter, and bringing an end to the Long Night. For Daenerys to be in position to do this, Aegon, being Daenerys' enemy, will have to die, and so he will.
It would make the most amount of sense for it to not be introduced in book 5 of 7
How so?
For Tyrion truthers I have but one simple question: why did notorious Tyrion-stans David and Dan not make him the third head of the dragon in the show? George revealed the endings for all the major characters to them, so is the argument that they decided not to go in this direction? Or are we still coping about them not getting the 'true' ending info from George in big 26?
The three heads of the Dragon was not even really a thing in the show, barely mentioned (if at all). It makes lot of sense to me that they thought simply that it was too much trouble to introduce his Targeryen inheritance even if they knew it was meant to be in the books
(see? people assume this is about dragonriders)
It's Tyrion, right ?
Can't seem to be anyone else
There are no three heads of the dragon.
I think it is probably fAegon, but with the introduction of the Dragon Horns, one might not need to be a Targ to be a Dragon Rider.
Also, I wouldn't put that much attention to the prophecies we haven't heard in detail. As you see from the Valonqar, it is qute possible that someone who receives a prophecy just reads in it what they wanted to it. IT is possible the prophecy was already fulfilled by the rebirth of Dragons that was caused by a Targ girl being exiled to Essos where she could sacrifice her husband, herself and a witch to the flames.
I'm still not sure what the dragon has three heads even means.
Head one is suggested to be Rhaegar's son Aegon. And Rhaegar said "one more" which seems clear to me Aegon is the second. Who is the first? Rhaenys? Who is the third? Jon? Dany? Rhaenys is dead, so a new head joins.
Aemon thinks the dragons prove Dany is in the middle of this.
He even thinks it could be him.
So it doesn't need to be Rhaegar's children, it can be someone of Targaryen ancestry. There could be many candidates if that's the case.
Tyrion or Aegon or Jon or anyone with the blood.
The prophecy just talks about "three heads of the dragon", of Targaryen blood, but no one knows who they are.
First Aegon the Conqueror thought that it was him and his two sisters.
Later on, Rhaegar thought that it was his three kids. The ones he had with Elia (Rhaenys and Aegon), and the third one whe planned to have with Lyanna.
I think that the three heads will end being the big three: Dany, Jon and Tyrion. Tyrion will be revealed to have been sired by Aerys' rape of Joana. To be honest, I don't like this theory much, but I think George is going for it.
The other candidates with Targaryen blood are far to distant, and also wouldn't fit with the prophecy that the prince that was promised would be born out of the line of Aerys and Rhaella Targaryen.
Thematically, I don't think it adds to the story, on the contrary: Tyrion not being Tywin's son would ruin and cheapen:
- Tyrion's complex and painful relationship with his father
- Jon's heritage reveal (two secret Targs are too many secret Targs, especially when we have the whole FAegon aka Blackfyre pretending to be a Targ in play)
-It would make Tywin way less pathetic. The fact that he, the one who has always obsessed with preserving House Lannister's legacy and making his family dominate over others, has doomed his House precisely by despising his own blood, the son that is his spitting image, would lose its significance if he is a Targ.
I can see what reasons people have to doubt Tyrion's heritage, but thematically, the idea doesn't fit with what Martin imho wants to convey about Tyrion and Tywin's dynamics
The third head of the dragon doesn't need to be necessarily a Targ, in Martin's words. It could very well be Bran, who is the most powerful Greenseer, or Euron with the Horn.
So you mean three heads of the dragon = 3 dragonriders = 3 PTWP? I think it is way more ambiguous. For example, perhaps we will have 3 dragonriders and 3 heroes, but they will be separate groups of people.
We only know the woods witch say Aerys and Rhaella had to wed because PTWP would come from their line... just with Dany being one of the AA figures the prophecy would be complete. I personally feel the dragonriders will be: 1) Dany, 2)Jon, 3) Euron/Bran. The 3 Azor Ahai figures: Dany, Arya, Jon (representating fire, ice, and both). But it is very difficult to ascertain: what/when/how the Targaryens heard about the three heads of the dragon? Because we only know their interpretation, and we know they are prone to make mistakes in prophecies (the obsession with a prince, when the original word was gender neutral, for example)
Was it Targaryen blood? I think I missed that. Thanks.
Was that his plan?
What evidence is there of rape?
We don't know if the prophecy is correct or interpreted correctly. Aemon discussed errors creeping in. There could be more.
We know Aerys lusted for Joana. Barristan reveals that during Tywin's and Joana's wedding he said it was a pity that the first night had been abolished (or in other words, that it was a pity that he couldn't legally rape her). It's also said that he took too many "liberties" during the bedding. And when the twins were born, Aerys jokingly asked Joana if her "high and proud" breast had been ruined by giving milk.
Then there's this quote from AWOIAF: Sadly, the marriage between Aerys II Targaryen and his sister Rhaella was not as happy; though she turned a blind eye to most of the king’s infidelities, the queen did not approve of his “turning my ladies into his whores.” (Joanna Lannister was not the first lady to be dismissed abruptly from Her Grace’s service, nor was she the last).
And finally, there's Tywin's words to Tyrion in ASOS ("Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine.") and the knowledge that Joanna visited court during the year that Tyrion was conceived.
I had a flashback to a show from my youth just now.
We have a report Aerys lusted for Joanna.
Even Barristan dismissed it as a drunken jape. I don't think this is evidence of sex between the two much less rape.
If you are looking for hard evidence of the rape, of course you won't find it. That's why it's a theory.
But there's evidence that Aerys lusted for Joana. He had means, motive and opportunity. And Joana was, for some reason, suddenly dismissed from Rhaella's service (and Yandel links this event with Aerys treating Rhaella's ladies into his whores).
Everyone can make of that what they will.
Yes, but I don't feel great hanging rape on the guy with zero direct evidence or even an accusation from Joanna.
Making someone a whore doesn't mean you had sex with them absent consent. We kinda focus on the bad things he is reported to have done, but keep in mind...
A charming and generous king could seduce someone rather than force them.
It doesn't have to be Rhaegar's kids. But, according to the prophecy by woods witch, shouldn't it be from both Aerys and Rhaella's line hence they were forced to marry each other?
That prophecy is about the Promised Prince, not about the three heads of the dragon.
"Three heads of the dragon... yes... but the third will not necessarily BE a Targaryen..." - GRRM
That prophecy is about the Promised Prince, not about the three heads of the dragon.
Tyrek. I can already see the half man, half horse, half man. 150% a real threat.
And 100% reason to remember the name
This has been years, but IIRC there was a somewhat plausible theory that Tyrion could in fact also be a secret Targaryen, and that Tywin suspected it but could never prove it, and that's part of the reason he hates Tyrion so much. I thought it was interesting, but it's been too many years for me to remember the details of it.
But Aerys and Rhaella were forced to get married because of the prophecy that 3 heads of the dragons would be from their line.
Is that TWOIAF? Barristan in ADWD only says about TPTWP.
Wood witch's prophecy
Is that TWOIAF? Barristan in ADWD only says about TPTWP.
Yeah it's from TWOIAF. As far as I can tell, this quote is all there is on the matter:
I don't understand where OP is getting the exact detail of the three headed dragon's lineage. This quote is from the Aegon V chapter in TWOIAF, which is what the Wiki of Ice and Fire cites as the source for the claim about TPTWP. I couldn't find anything else in there about this.
The claim about TPTWP is from ADWD as I said:
In the "Tyrion is a Targaeryen" theory, it's The Mad King who raped Tywin's wife and impregnated her with Tyrion, so he would be Dany's brother and Jon's uncle. Same bloodline.
Not Rhaella's though. Rhaella and Aerys could have gotten married to other people if only one of them is enough to sire the said dragons.
I'm not familiar with the stipulation that the three need to come from the line of Rhaella and Aerys. Where is that from? Regardless, there are only two living people remaining who share that ancestry - or three if you believe fAegon is real, which the prevailing opinion AFAIK is that he isn't. So if you're correct that all three need to descend from both Aerys and Rhaella, then either fAegon really is who he says he is (in which case he's the 3rd) or he's not and the prophecy can not be fulfilled until Jon and/or Daenerys have children.
Woods witch.
Well in any case. If your interpretation of the prophecy is true, then it's either fAegon or the prophecy has failed. There are only two (or three potentially) living people who share the ancestry of both of them. So in that case there really isn't much room for speculation.
But also, isn't that just the Targs' interpretation of the prophecy? Like they could just be wrong, no?
Tyrion has dragon dreams, and the timeline matches up entirely for him to be the Mad King's bastard. As much as people hate the theory, I think it's him. But who knows.
Tior of house Toland(idk if I'm saying her name right) also has dragon dreams, dragon dreams are not indicative of Targaryen blood
It's Tyrion.
Jon, Daenerys and Tyrion are the three main protagonists of the series.
Man that would be so unbelievably corny, I really hope not
it wouldn’t be unbelievably corny if that didn’t happen just for the sake of ‘subverting expectations’, given everything he’s laid down in the books supporting and foreshadowing it
It's not even about subverting expectations for me. I just personally find that GRRM's Tyrion favoritism leads to his character being a little tedious to read sometimes and that would basically be the zenith of all those tendencies which I don't really care for.
Maybe Bran? I only say this because he’s King at the end so he has to do something big. It’s either him or Tyrion.
Bran + Bloodraven when the latter attempts to inhabit the former's mind
If it’s Bran I’ll be so disappointed
I think George can pull it off in a compelling way.
Imagine it like this: Bran’s been training in the Weirwood network. Hours feel like years. He’s changed. No longer a boy. (This was the proposed theory for how George will account for Bran’s age after the removal of the five year gap).
While Bran’s in this trance, Bloodraven reveals his true intentions: he has a new body to inhabit now. A young one.
Bran and friends escape. Perhaps a reveal of Jojen paste at that point if you subscribe to the theory, and/or time-traveling Bran if you like that one.
They may have escaped, but Bran was still affected, partially deformed by the bits of Bloodraven left in him. He’s got some of his features now—maybe the iconic eyes or white hair.
Just an idea of how things might go in my mind. I don’t expect this theory to play out fully like I predict, but I think there could be some interesting aspects for GRRM to play with there.
But you’re right. He’s really gonna need to thread the needle to make such an idea work… perhaps another cause to the delay of Winds.
You introduce some interesting points. If bloodraven wargs into Bran or something to that effect, I could accept that. If Bran just wheels his ass back to Winterfell and gets a dragon, not cool
Totally agree. He needs a lot of work to get to the point of being compelling imo.
As a last note, there's also a lot of foreshadowing for Bran warging into or riding a dragon. The three-eyed-crow telling him he would never walk again, but he would fly. Obviously might just be referring to warging birds, and I might be reading too much into stuff there, but I don't know. Maybe
Not fAegon, which is described as a mummer's dragon in the prophecy world.
Tyrion fits narratively but there isn't a single valid hint anywhere, while for almost everything else in the series we are flooded by foreshadowing/prophecies/visions. Tyrion is a dwarf, or a lion! Anything figuratively involving him should be pretty easy to spot. His "dragon dream" on the narrow sea is clearly just a dream and not prophetic in the slightest, given the characters involved.
Euron is the kraken, so not him.
If we believe the show and trust the crow's eye's competence there will be two "valid" dragons present at the final battle, so I buy that the dragon "must" have three heads but it will have two, which will complicate things.
I think it'll be left somewhat ambiguous. There'll be people put forward as candidates, but it'll never be 100% clear. Such is the nature of prophecy.
I assumed fAeagon was the red herring and Tyrion was the secret third head.
But I also thought that Tyrion would end up on the Throne!
Hopefully half of these replies are specifically about 3 dragonriders, because we have no idea what does the prophecy thing in the title even mean.
Jon, Dany and Aegon. Fake Targ or not, he is still a dragon.
Can I speculate there will be no third rider? (Sincere question) Or, is it definitely mandatory that the story reveal the dragon did have three heads? I recognize there is some logic by which this might be true. I am simply the reader who never thought there would be three.
It works out better thematically if there are three riders. That's more important than internally consistent logic.
Prophecies will bite your prick off every time, and they almost always have multiple interpretations. I’m still not sure how far we should really trust the “three heads of the dragon will be Azor Ahai/The Last Hero/TPTWP and swoop in to save the day” lens
But assuming there will be three clear Targaryens mirroring Aegon and his sisters, I continue to view Jaime as the character with the most textual basis. It’s clear Tyrion was GRRM’s original plan, but far less evident is whether he stuck with it. Nearly all the big evidence comes from early in the series
Twin Targ Theory is under-discussed in general, though it has its fair share of detractors. I made a recent overview of the arguments for it here. But again, there’s no guarantee George even has a specific heroic trio planned
I think it's going to be Bran. He'll skinchange into one of them.
Tossup between Tyrion and Bran. Do note that neither have significant dragon blood, but both would thematically make a lot of sense as riders of Viserion (second son with maimed dignity and desperate to reclaim it). It's not clear to me how necessary Valyrian heritage is to ride dragons but I wanna say at least one Dance of the Dragons rider had no discernible Valyrian heritage.
If I have to choose, maybe Tyrion, bringing to the fore widespread rumors that he's Aerys' bastard. Do note that if non Valyrians can ride dragons, he doesn't need to be Aerys' bastard in truth, and his story arc probably works better if he isn't. It's enough to fulfill the foreshadowing if Tyrion being a dragonrider revives the rumors.
I mostly think that hyper focusing on the three heads of the dragon, and in particular the need for Targaryen/Valyrian ancestry, is going to spell doom for at least Dany. It’s really unclear to me whether or not Jon will give a shit about his biological father’s magical ambitions.
If you put a gun to my head about which Targaryen descendent could complete the Jon/Dany power team? Probably Brienne. She’s someone no one would expect based on appearances but she is pretty explicitly destined to defeat the Great Other.
Tyrion or Bran
Euron. The false dragon. The charlatan. If not, I’d say Tyrion but its not down to any dragon blood but his own intellect and interest in dragonlore, being the Nettles of 300 AC.
I hate tyrion Targaryen but I admit there is ample evidence, as well as the fact GRRM loves him so he might just make him a dragonrider for that alone. I just have to add do you think story needs another secret targ. Given the time since the last book and the years of theorising, I feel like we're all just dismissing how huge a moment it is that Jon is a secret targ. He's one of our protagonists and his identity has been a lie for 5 books. Another secret targ would throw shit all over that moment.
In world it would be like:
"Guys, Neds Stark bastard is back from the dead and he's actually Rhaegar's son!"
"That's old news keep up, the imp isn't Tywins son but actually the Mad King's bastard."
"Wait, then who's this guy who's been crowned in King's Landing?"
"He's Rhaegar's son aswell"
The world of fire and fire would be a more apt name.
Dany & Jon without a doubt, and for the third head — i think it’s probably Tyrion, but i also think that there will probably be more than three people who will end up potentially filling this prophecy, and it’ll be more in retrospect that we see who it is — i could see Bran, fAegon or even Arya potentially fitting, too. i really really really don’t feel there will ever be a moment where it’ll be stated that ‘x’ characters are the three heads.
people in the fandom are so cynical about prophecies and magic when we’re reading the dragons, ice monsters Song of Ice and Fire story where magic is only becoming more and more of a presence! Dany literally saw the Red Wedding in the HOTD. i’m sure that prophecies won’t be played straight but acting like the ethos of the story is Religion Bad Magic Bad Prophecies Evil Wrong and Pointless is holding everyone back from the full potential of the story, and from the fun of the story!
Cersei if Jaime gets done in by Lady Stoneheart.
If we assume three heads of the dragon = dragonriders, then Bran/and or Euron
Though I think there may be some problem of interpretation, and instead of dragonriders or even Targs, it may refer to three people that will play the role of PTWP/AA