Liking his characterization is distinct from liking the character. How he is portrayed and his role in the story is very different from what he does and values.
What George puts Tyrion through and how George has Tyrion respond to these things is well written in my view. I find the events and his response a great read despite not agreeing--on a moral standpoint--the choices Tyrion makes.
Same goes for people to be honest. We live in a time where people like to pose as morally pure and flawless when we all know that all of us have made bad decisions and mistakes before or used to have stupid opinions. Some more minor than others, but still.
Tyrion in ADWD is a little bit like Lady Stoneheart to Catelyn. There’s nothing about his characterization in ADWD that wasn’t already there, but we’re seeing it more amplified than ever.
Tyrion has never been a good guy. He is hedonistic, selfish and misogynistic. He is aware about his siblings incest and never confronts them. He supports his family, without question, in their bloody sack of the Riverlands and in the usurpation of the throne. He doesn't hesitate to murder Allar Deem and Symon Silvertongue. He strangles Shae with her own hands, when she really didn't have any other option than to do what she did.
We, the readers, forgive this dark side because he is funny, easy to empathize with, and the people who kills are scum anyways. But it has always seem clear to me (and to many other readers) that he is posed to be one of the big bad guys by the end of the series, and one of Dany's big treasons.
IMHO, his caracterization in a Dance with Dragons is consistent with what we have seen of him, considering that he has just killed his father and has lost his place among the Westerosi nobility. This sinister dwarf is what he has always been, at his core. And he will get much worse.
Not that these technicalities really matter when evaluating the morality of characters in a fantasy setting and not the 21st century, but Tyrion is acting as hand when he gives that order, so it's not extrajudicial at all. In this world, a king or lord can call for the execution of anyone just by their speech without a court case needing to be made first.
So it was not even an extrajudicial killing.
And even if it was, I personally have the maybe controversial opinion that having a baby murderer killed outweighs the potential bad of it being done eXtRaJuDiCiAlLy.
There are good and bad ways to deal with criminals, and that's a bad way. People should have the right to make their case, justify themselves, or even deny the accusation.
Tyrion might have been hand, but he was sentencing a man to death for executing a command from the regent, who happens to be Tyrion's sister. Killing Deem in secret but avoiding to incomodate Cersei, is hypocritical and reprehensible.
There are good and bad ways to deal with criminals, and that's a bad way. People should have the right to make their case, justify themselves, or even deny the accusation.
There is no better way available to Tyrion here. It's either Allar Deem gets to live at the Wall, or Tyrion gives the order for him to be dealt with directly.
Tyrion might have been hand, but he was sentencing a man to death for executing a command from the regent, who happens to be Tyrion's sister.
If you think Allar Deem should not be killed because he was following orders by someone with the legal authority to give them, how can you oppose Tyrion's orders? He has the same legal right to give binding orders as Cersei does at that moment as hand of the king.
The same logic you use to justify his actions can also be used to justify Tyrion's command.
Killing Deem in secret but avoiding to incomodate Cersei, is hypocritical
Right, these are genuinely some of the worst types of people you can meet in life. Someone does 14 good things and as soon as you do a bad thing they say you were always a piece of shit.
Nah, most of those either are in his best interests (saving Cat, or leading the sally), or cost him nothing (being kind with Sansa or Bran). Meanwhile, he is responsible of some deaths and complicit in many others.
I'm not saying that he has never done anything good. But any independent observer would agree that he has done more bad than good. We like him because he is fun, but he wouldn't stand any thorough ethical analysis.
(And confronting about the incest doesn't mean snitching. It means approaching his brother and warning him that the game he is playing can be the end of the entire family.)
Nah, most of those either are in his best interests (saving Cat, or leading the sally)
Saving Cat isn't really in his best interest, since she abducted him to have him tried for murder, and her specific survival as a woman doesn't increase the odds of his surviving all that much as it would if she was a battle capable man.
Leading the sally is a heroic thing to do since as an aristocrat of the highest tier, the odds of him getting killed in actual battle as a dwarf are much, much, much higher than if he got captured or if he made a run for it.
cost him nothing (being kind with Sansa
WHAT? Being kind to Sansa cost him a lot, he was the laughing stock of King's Landing, everyone either behind his back or straight up to his face questioned his manhood. His father taunts and belittles him for it. And since he is supposed to claim the north through Sansa, not getting her pregnant asap does nothing but undermine his chance to do so.
The only reason Tyrion doesn't do it despite all the incentives to do so is because he does actually have a conscience.
Bran
So just because you don't suffer greatly for it, a great deed is no longer a great deed?
And confronting about the incest doesn't mean snitching. It means approaching his brother and warning him that the game he is playing can be the end of the entire family.)
They know that. Him saying that would accomplish precisely nothing. He already taunted Cersei about his knowledge of the twincest. What is it you'd want him to if not snitch?
Nah, most of those either are in his best interests (saving Cat, or leading the sally), or cost him nothing (being kind with Sansa or Bran). Meanwhile, he is responsible of some deaths and complicit in many others.
Not letting Joffrey to be cruel to Sansa literally almost got Tyrion murdered and resulted in his nose being chopped off.
Saving Cat was certainly not in his interest and almost got him executed if not for Bronn winning. He had an opportunity to take a horse and flee. He knew logically that this was the right thing to do for himself yet he killed the mountain man attacking her instead.
His gift to Bran was thoughtful and not something someone who didn’t care would do.
I’m not saying that he has never done anything good. But any independent observer would agree that he has done more bad than good. We like him because he is fun, but he wouldn’t stand any thorough ethical analysis.
No. Pre his crash out Tyrion was certainly a good guy on the bad side.
(And confronting about the incest doesn’t mean snitching. It means approaching his brother and warning him that the game he is playing can be the end of the entire family.)
“I hope the boy does wake. I would be most interested in what he might have to say.”
His brother’s smile curdled like sour milk. “Tyrion, my sweet brother,” he said darkly, “there are times when you give me cause to wonder whose side you are on.”
Tyrion’s mouth was full of bread and fish. He took a swallow of strong black beer to wash it all down, and grinned up wolfishly at Jaime. “Why, Jaime my sweet brother,” he said, “you wound me. You know how much I love my family.”
Tyrion has never been a good guy. He is hedonistic, selfish and misogynistic.
This is my opinion as well. Tyrion is also very profligate with his father’s wealth. He acts like a victim, but he never uses this extreme wealth to help those in need. He just travels the world, drowning himself in liquor and sex-workers
In ACOK, we kind of see a more mature side of Tyrion, but even then he seems obsessed with personal recognition and ego-boosting
It’s funny how Tyrion thinks of himself as the guy who saved the city; but he barely spares a thought for Sir Characterman of Nowheresville who actually died in the mud to protect their home
Honestly, I think GRRM goes a bit too far on the self-pity and it drags on a bit too long. Tyrion being sad and angry is expected after ASOS, there’s just a little too much of it that particular mode he’s stuck in. I also don’t like the scene between him and the sex slave in Selhorys. His incel-ish behavior in general is very grating for a character we are clearly still meant to root for but that scene is grotesque.
Tyrion was always shitty. He’s definitely more shitty in ADWD but that part of him was always there. It just got ignored because he is a fan favorite. I wasn’t surprised that a man who killed his prostitute “girlfriend” also rapes slaves
I appreciate that its a fairly natural progression (or regression?) of Tyrion's character given the circumstances. He was never a particularly great person and hes pretty traumatized by killing his father and the Tysha stuff.
But no I dont like Tyrion as a character or enjoy reading his chapters. Its like reading a school shooters manifesto. Just personal preference but at the time of reading I'd read enough edgy shit to last a lifetime already. Reading Tyrion's chapters felt like reading Garth Ennis' Crossed again.
I mean I think part of him broke after all the shit he lived with his whole life. He was never a good guy, but it came to a boiling point. We are talking about a boy who faced hatred from his father and sister, a boy who was taught that no one would ever love him. When he fell in love he was made to think it was about Money and pity from his brother. Never really even had a true friend. The only reason people dealt with him was because of his family name, a name he hated. He believed his father and sister were actively trying to kill him. The first time he ever received anything good was when named hand. He thought he did a really good job. (I actually think he was a very bad hand and made too many enemies and fought battles that he didn't have to. And then he was replaced without a thank you. Then set up for Joeffreys murder. Her was betrayed by the only people he did feel close to. I don't think it's surprising that he becomes full of self loathing, hatred and Anger.
i personally think the "dark tyrion" arc felt , uh a little overkill. he loves jamie so even finding out about Tysha which is bad but not the end of the world it doesnt feel like to me Tyrion would flip to pure evil after that.
i dont know if im explaining it that well but it just doesnt feel warranted, not that i have a problem with his actions.
He loved jaime which is why it hurt so much, to him it did feel like the end of the world. Turning to evil after that and descending into being spiteful and self destructive all the time instead of just half the time like he was before is in line with his personality.
Actually, the fact that his beloved brother was involved in covering up what was essentially the gangrape of the only woman who loved him truly was always going to drive him deranged from fury. It's the ultimate betrayal. Him sputtering out a confession to killing Joffrey and accusing Cersei of cheating was very very realistic
Now, it wasn't essential that he stuck to the dark path and go about raping people. Tyrion could have come out of the crate in Essos, an ideological enemy of the Lannisters having reflected on the commonalities between Tysha and all the other victims of his family. Something closer to the show just not that stupid perhaps
I don't think you recognize how core the Tysha incident is to Tyrion's self-conception. For years he was made to believe that he was completely unloveable and women would only want him for his father's gold and then it turns out that the girl used to truly deliver this lesson to Tyrion was never a prostitute, never lied or deceived Tyrion, truly loved him for who ue was and was gangraped on his father's orders with Tyrion made to go last. His beloved brother Jaime lied to him every day of his life since then
It's a completely shattering discovery and it makes perfect sense that coming on top of his family trying to kill him that he completely breaks
Liking his characterization is distinct from liking the character. How he is portrayed and his role in the story is very different from what he does and values.
What George puts Tyrion through and how George has Tyrion respond to these things is well written in my view. I find the events and his response a great read despite not agreeing--on a moral standpoint--the choices Tyrion makes.
If you could only like morally good characters, that wouldn't leave you with many people in this series to like.
Same goes for people to be honest. We live in a time where people like to pose as morally pure and flawless when we all know that all of us have made bad decisions and mistakes before or used to have stupid opinions. Some more minor than others, but still.
Just Davos and Quentyn pretty much of the povs.
He also raped a sex slave.
Tyrion in ADWD is a little bit like Lady Stoneheart to Catelyn. There’s nothing about his characterization in ADWD that wasn’t already there, but we’re seeing it more amplified than ever.
Tyrion has never been a good guy. He is hedonistic, selfish and misogynistic. He is aware about his siblings incest and never confronts them. He supports his family, without question, in their bloody sack of the Riverlands and in the usurpation of the throne. He doesn't hesitate to murder Allar Deem and Symon Silvertongue. He strangles Shae with her own hands, when she really didn't have any other option than to do what she did.
We, the readers, forgive this dark side because he is funny, easy to empathize with, and the people who kills are scum anyways. But it has always seem clear to me (and to many other readers) that he is posed to be one of the big bad guys by the end of the series, and one of Dany's big treasons.
IMHO, his caracterization in a Dance with Dragons is consistent with what we have seen of him, considering that he has just killed his father and has lost his place among the Westerosi nobility. This sinister dwarf is what he has always been, at his core. And he will get much worse.
The guy who was Janos' go to man for murdering babies? Why do you make it sound like that's a bad thing?
Because extrajudicial killings are a bad thing.
Not that these technicalities really matter when evaluating the morality of characters in a fantasy setting and not the 21st century, but Tyrion is acting as hand when he gives that order, so it's not extrajudicial at all. In this world, a king or lord can call for the execution of anyone just by their speech without a court case needing to be made first.
So it was not even an extrajudicial killing.
And even if it was, I personally have the maybe controversial opinion that having a baby murderer killed outweighs the potential bad of it being done eXtRaJuDiCiAlLy.
There are good and bad ways to deal with criminals, and that's a bad way. People should have the right to make their case, justify themselves, or even deny the accusation.
Tyrion might have been hand, but he was sentencing a man to death for executing a command from the regent, who happens to be Tyrion's sister. Killing Deem in secret but avoiding to incomodate Cersei, is hypocritical and reprehensible.
There is no better way available to Tyrion here. It's either Allar Deem gets to live at the Wall, or Tyrion gives the order for him to be dealt with directly.
If you think Allar Deem should not be killed because he was following orders by someone with the legal authority to give them, how can you oppose Tyrion's orders? He has the same legal right to give binding orders as Cersei does at that moment as hand of the king.
The same logic you use to justify his actions can also be used to justify Tyrion's command.
Uhhh what about it is hypocritical?
Never understood how people just handwave and ignore Tyrions good deeds when we hear his inner thoughts.
He saves Catelyn from the mountain men despite it being an opportunity to escape.
Stops Joffreys cruelty despite it making him a target of the king.
Sansa chooses Tyrion over Lancel due to his kindness.
Instead of running away he leads the sally against Stannis’s men.
Having Bran made the saddle.
Confronting or snitching about the twincest would get his niece and nephews murdered.
Right, these are genuinely some of the worst types of people you can meet in life. Someone does 14 good things and as soon as you do a bad thing they say you were always a piece of shit.
Nah, most of those either are in his best interests (saving Cat, or leading the sally), or cost him nothing (being kind with Sansa or Bran). Meanwhile, he is responsible of some deaths and complicit in many others.
I'm not saying that he has never done anything good. But any independent observer would agree that he has done more bad than good. We like him because he is fun, but he wouldn't stand any thorough ethical analysis.
(And confronting about the incest doesn't mean snitching. It means approaching his brother and warning him that the game he is playing can be the end of the entire family.)
Saving Cat isn't really in his best interest, since she abducted him to have him tried for murder, and her specific survival as a woman doesn't increase the odds of his surviving all that much as it would if she was a battle capable man.
Leading the sally is a heroic thing to do since as an aristocrat of the highest tier, the odds of him getting killed in actual battle as a dwarf are much, much, much higher than if he got captured or if he made a run for it.
WHAT? Being kind to Sansa cost him a lot, he was the laughing stock of King's Landing, everyone either behind his back or straight up to his face questioned his manhood. His father taunts and belittles him for it. And since he is supposed to claim the north through Sansa, not getting her pregnant asap does nothing but undermine his chance to do so.
The only reason Tyrion doesn't do it despite all the incentives to do so is because he does actually have a conscience.
So just because you don't suffer greatly for it, a great deed is no longer a great deed?
They know that. Him saying that would accomplish precisely nothing. He already taunted Cersei about his knowledge of the twincest. What is it you'd want him to if not snitch?
Not letting Joffrey to be cruel to Sansa literally almost got Tyrion murdered and resulted in his nose being chopped off.
Saving Cat was certainly not in his interest and almost got him executed if not for Bronn winning. He had an opportunity to take a horse and flee. He knew logically that this was the right thing to do for himself yet he killed the mountain man attacking her instead.
His gift to Bran was thoughtful and not something someone who didn’t care would do.
No. Pre his crash out Tyrion was certainly a good guy on the bad side.
“I hope the boy does wake. I would be most interested in what he might have to say.”
His brother’s smile curdled like sour milk. “Tyrion, my sweet brother,” he said darkly, “there are times when you give me cause to wonder whose side you are on.”
Tyrion’s mouth was full of bread and fish. He took a swallow of strong black beer to wash it all down, and grinned up wolfishly at Jaime. “Why, Jaime my sweet brother,” he said, “you wound me. You know how much I love my family.”
This is my opinion as well. Tyrion is also very profligate with his father’s wealth. He acts like a victim, but he never uses this extreme wealth to help those in need. He just travels the world, drowning himself in liquor and sex-workers
In ACOK, we kind of see a more mature side of Tyrion, but even then he seems obsessed with personal recognition and ego-boosting
It’s funny how Tyrion thinks of himself as the guy who saved the city; but he barely spares a thought for Sir Characterman of Nowheresville who actually died in the mud to protect their home
Oof I know it probably wasn’t meant that way but shae wasn’t scum, as you say she had little choice in the matter
Honestly, I think GRRM goes a bit too far on the self-pity and it drags on a bit too long. Tyrion being sad and angry is expected after ASOS, there’s just a little too much of it that particular mode he’s stuck in. I also don’t like the scene between him and the sex slave in Selhorys. His incel-ish behavior in general is very grating for a character we are clearly still meant to root for but that scene is grotesque.
Tyrion was always shitty. He’s definitely more shitty in ADWD but that part of him was always there. It just got ignored because he is a fan favorite. I wasn’t surprised that a man who killed his prostitute “girlfriend” also rapes slaves
Yes, Tyrion becoming a full villain is an interesting turn that makes sense.
I appreciate that its a fairly natural progression (or regression?) of Tyrion's character given the circumstances. He was never a particularly great person and hes pretty traumatized by killing his father and the Tysha stuff.
But no I dont like Tyrion as a character or enjoy reading his chapters. Its like reading a school shooters manifesto. Just personal preference but at the time of reading I'd read enough edgy shit to last a lifetime already. Reading Tyrion's chapters felt like reading Garth Ennis' Crossed again.
Yes, it gives the message that all the abuse he faced had an effect on him.
If he had no development and jusg continued to be witty, funny, and likeable, then the story would be pointless.
Look how he treats Shae in ACOK and ASOS and it makes complete sense that he'd fully degenerate after the Tysha reveal.
I mean I think part of him broke after all the shit he lived with his whole life. He was never a good guy, but it came to a boiling point. We are talking about a boy who faced hatred from his father and sister, a boy who was taught that no one would ever love him. When he fell in love he was made to think it was about Money and pity from his brother. Never really even had a true friend. The only reason people dealt with him was because of his family name, a name he hated. He believed his father and sister were actively trying to kill him. The first time he ever received anything good was when named hand. He thought he did a really good job. (I actually think he was a very bad hand and made too many enemies and fought battles that he didn't have to. And then he was replaced without a thank you. Then set up for Joeffreys murder. Her was betrayed by the only people he did feel close to. I don't think it's surprising that he becomes full of self loathing, hatred and Anger.
Is it a sinister turn? He claimed he'd rape Tommen in Clash.
i personally think the "dark tyrion" arc felt , uh a little overkill. he loves jamie so even finding out about Tysha which is bad but not the end of the world it doesnt feel like to me Tyrion would flip to pure evil after that.
i dont know if im explaining it that well but it just doesnt feel warranted, not that i have a problem with his actions.
He loved jaime which is why it hurt so much, to him it did feel like the end of the world. Turning to evil after that and descending into being spiteful and self destructive all the time instead of just half the time like he was before is in line with his personality.
Actually, the fact that his beloved brother was involved in covering up what was essentially the gangrape of the only woman who loved him truly was always going to drive him deranged from fury. It's the ultimate betrayal. Him sputtering out a confession to killing Joffrey and accusing Cersei of cheating was very very realistic
Now, it wasn't essential that he stuck to the dark path and go about raping people. Tyrion could have come out of the crate in Essos, an ideological enemy of the Lannisters having reflected on the commonalities between Tysha and all the other victims of his family. Something closer to the show just not that stupid perhaps
[deleted]
I don't think you recognize how core the Tysha incident is to Tyrion's self-conception. For years he was made to believe that he was completely unloveable and women would only want him for his father's gold and then it turns out that the girl used to truly deliver this lesson to Tyrion was never a prostitute, never lied or deceived Tyrion, truly loved him for who ue was and was gangraped on his father's orders with Tyrion made to go last. His beloved brother Jaime lied to him every day of his life since then
It's a completely shattering discovery and it makes perfect sense that coming on top of his family trying to kill him that he completely breaks