I’m on approved time off that my boss personally approved. I have auto-replies set on my work email and phone, and my work cell phone rolls to the office while I’m out.
A collaborative project I had been working on got delayed after my vacation started. My boss first texted my work number, then my personal phone, asking if “we” needed to call the customer the day before notifying them of the delay. I didn’t respond because I’m on PTO and felt that once I’m out, this becomes a management responsibility.
A couple days later, he called again and left a voicemail saying he didn’t want to “step in the middle of the ball game” and that I needed to call my counterpart because the customer was upset. Again, I’m on approved PTO. I didn’t respond.
Then yesterday he called again saying leadership was escalating, the customer was losing faith in the company, and he needed contacts from me to try to resolve the situation. At that point, I blocked his number on my personal phone.
So he messaged me on Facebook asking me to call him. Two minutes later, a district manager from the department we’re collaborating with — the same one he referenced in the voicemail, also messaged me on Facebook asking me to call him. I muted both, marked them as read, and didn’t reply.
This feels like a huge boundary violation. I’m on approved time off that HE approved. I didn’t agree to work. I didn’t refuse, I was simply unavailable.
What makes this worse is that I recently raised concerns to my boss’s boss about my boss being retaliatory, and now this is happening. Am I wrong for ignoring all of this, or is this workplace crossing a serious line?
TL;DR: On approved PTO, boss tried to make me fix a project issue anyway. When I didn’t respond, he and upper management messaged me on Facebook. Feels like harassment, am I wrong?
Ooh, I have a relevant story here. This happened to me before except I answered the phone and solved the issues. This was before I learned to just disconnect, however, when I returned I went straight to payroll and asked them to give me my vacation days back, which they did. I specifically pointed out that since vacation time was compensation I was effectively paying them for the privilege of working while I should've been relaxing.
This is what I would have done, even with the chance you have to fight HR. I have anxiety, so if I did what OP did I would literally not be able to enjoy my vacation thinking about work and the retaliation of my boss.
I should have done that after was interrupted by calls from our department head 4x while on an outback holiday. She was calling my husbands phone because I had no reception out there. Prior to my leave I'd worked 2 weeks straight, having been on call both of the previous weekends. I was exhausted. She only cared about covering her ass.
That was the start of my earnest exit planning.....
Why would she even have your husband's phone?
Emergency contact numbers 🙄
Well, next job, your emergency number is 911.
🤣
Its the same concept as an unpaid 30 min lunch period. If you make me work 25 minutes into my lunch, it restarts my lunch after I am finished and im back on that clock for the first 25 minutes. You dont get to decide your emergencies are mine as well when im not on the clock.
I took two weeks in August and disabled every notification. I came back to a hilarious number of texts, emails, teams, and slack messages from people who said they know I'm on vacation, but...
One was a PM demanding I respond and fix something they fucked up the day after I left on vacation. When I didn't, she CC'd her manager and my manager. My manager basically told her to fuck off and that he'd be pissed off with me if I responded to her. She didn't like that answer, so she CC'd HIS manager who said the same thing. She's barely said a word to me since.
I do all this, then also book the day as on call (2 extra hours pay if its a weekday, 4 if its a weekend), and submit a call out (minimum 2 hours at double time).
In other words, I get a minimum of the day back plus 6 hours extra pay. I’ll answer the phone for that.
This is the way.
🛎️🛎️🛎️.
This is the way.
My work is actually pretty good about this, but I also tell them I go camping while on vacation in areas without coverage.
I don't. I just got in the habit of telling them that when I had a terrible boss.
As the ONLY outdoorsy guy in my entire company, I use this every single time. Even in the winter.
International traveller here. Exclusively. That way I don’t have any service and shouldn’t be bringing company equipment along anyway….
Pto does not mean partial time off. Disconnect and ignore everything.
I Travel internationally as well, and what's even better for me is I can't legally do my job from outside the country, due to privacy laws and the nature of my job I can only do my job from within Canada.
Really shuts off complaints when you respond to people with "I can't legally do this." or "Are you asking me to break the law?"
I'm as pale of a sheet of paper and speaking to me for 2 minutes makes it obvious that I don't do any kind of hunting, fishing, camping, etc. However, every time I'm going on holiday, I'm also "going to a remote cabin".
Being pale is perfectly fine, you don’t have to go to the Caribbean to travel internationally…
My point is that it's an obvious lie. I'm in effect informing them I won't answer my phone for any reason.
Why is it a lie? Just because it's a remote cabin doesn't mean you'll be doing outdoor activities. I'd be sitting on the couch all day reading with no interruptions. Same thing I'd do at a beach resort. Sit around and read all day.
Maybe it's a cabin with remotes for the TV, music system, Blu-ray player, blender and ceiling fan. 😆
Camping in the winter is great. Not when it's too cold though.
For those reading this and thinking about winter camping, I love winter camping but it requires a whole other level of stamina, even at like -5°C. You NEED to have specific winter gear and you need to keep your energy up, especially if you're new to it.
If you ever get too tired and cold to get up in the morning you need to either leave or go back to your car to warm up and eat because it's easy to get into a cycle of "I'm tired and hungry and cold and don't want to get out of my sleeping bag" and then laying for half a day.
Leave a good thermos of coffee in your sleeping bag to warm you up when you wake up, and any heat it expels goes into your body. Keep easy food like granola bars within reach so you don't wake up hungry.
But winter walks are beautiful. Setting up a campfire in the snow is an amazing experience.
I am definitely not a winter camper.
But we do like to rent a cabin by the North Cascades with a nice wood stove and to snow shoeing.
A eiderdown sleeping bag is a game changer. Lightweight and so beautifully warm.
The colder the better. I honestly am thinking about traveling to somewhere insanely cold in the dead of winter just to have an even colder camping experience.
I adore snow camping!! You should try it if you haven't before. :) I'm finally getting to do my first trip of the year in a few weeks and can't wait.
I learned about the fun of winter camping through anime.
woahhh this is nice thank you so much
exactly, once you stop answering they suddenly act like boundaries are new to them
i feel like thats a big overlap between “those” type of bosses and “those” type of, say, parents and other positions of power in our lives in which that dynamic is abused
I did the same with my boss that expected availability. I respected that it went both ways- he expected calls during his time away. He was also good about comp time, so that helped with me wanting to work with him too. I set my expectation because it kept an otherwise good working relationship.
In an instance like this, I would have probably waited a few hours and texted back the first time. I would have said yeah, someone should reach out, I'm on my way to an activity in town and reminded it's lucky I got the message and am unlikely to get another in any timely fashion. It would save me headaches, so that's the only reason. After that I wouldn't continue to respond. Marking a message read and refusing to respond is just more than I would want to deal with when I went back.
My boss does camping and is in the Boy Scouts. If I did that I'd have to actually learn about camping in order to make up answers to his questions about my experiences.
You could go to a cabin or resort and read in peace and quiet without cell service.
What a great idea!
Same. No matter what I am doing on my PTO, I tell them I’m going camping in the mountains with no cell service!
I do the same thing. I say cell service will be spotty at best. If there is anything you need before I go. I’m here for the next two days. THURSDAY, and FRIDAY. I’ll be driving MONDAY and won’t be able to answer while driving.
It’s an 8 hour drive!
im gonna steal this, luckily i am usually the outdoorsy one also. Just gonna say “oh somewhere in the mountains” when they ask where xD
My boss kept calling me when I was out on sick leave. She wanted to know if I could teach some classes via zoom or something. I was delirious from a blood infection and ignored her. She started calling my wife, who is my emergency contact. Seems she was unclear what “emergency “ means in this case. A friend is married to a lawyer, who sent an email where the subject was my name and the contents a relevant part of the labor law. Didn’t hear anything else until I went back
Emergency contact is in the case that you have an emergency. Like if you are at work and they have to call an ambulance for you. That’s basically the only time they should contact your emergency contact. It’s not for “work emergencies”
Why is this so difficult to understand for some people? lol. Emergency contacts have always been for the person who gets hurt, etc at work lol
My boss had a habit of contacting me on my days off Dumb shit every time and got bent out of shape when I put in to be paid
On his last vacation contacted him over something every single day. Every single day. Guess who now has true days off?
Yeah, they don’t get it until it happens to them.
🤣🤣🤣
Wise decision! Take your time off- work would replace you in an instant if they could.
And also, once you do it ONCE they will refer back to it again and again.
You nailed it-my out-of-office is there for a reason
Yup. There are only two of my customers I break the “I’m not being paid to work” rule for because the first is a genuinely good person who does not bother me unless he has to and the other I use in a personal capacity and he’s had my back with my equipment so I help him out. That’s it. Everyone else gets ignored.
Agreed. I will break my own rule for one coworker because he covers for me and is generally a very kind man, but he never contacts me anyway! Because he respects my vacation and we are adults who can handle things!
Why do you have them added on FB I'd put it on private. Keep ignoring them it's what I do
I had to use my personal Facebook account with my last job. Never again.
I would absolutely never. Don't even have a facebook and I refuse to make one for work.
I started a work facebook bc my managers wants us to be friends with our clients company pages.
In my previous job they wanted my FB so they can put me in some group chat, luckily I don't have one so they would only message me
You’re smart to keep your boundaries! I was weak and a people pleaser. And wasn’t clever enough to think of making an alt account to use, lol.
Oh fuck no absolutely not
'Sorry i don't have (insert social media account here)'
Why would you use your real name on Facebook in the first place?
Why even have a Facebook account at all honestly.
To keep in touch with various friends of my age (i.e., Gen X).
The other social media sites are really no better - or are they?
Emails and phone numbers should suffice
Ew, email? Emails are for work.
-xennial
OP uses FB and her coworkers use it for work lol
Surprisingly, not for all of them!
But in principle I agree with you, certainly.
Yeah, as a fellow Gen X I get where you’re coming from, but at the end of the day I found myself looking up people I wasn’t super close with in school anyways, mostly from a “huh, so that’s what they’re doing” curiosity perspective. I send emails to immediate family and focus on my IRL community where I’m at.
I've rarely bothered to do that, my care factor is nearly zero.
I'm comfortably retired, and while part of me would like to be chuffed that I'm (possibly) doing better than other people I endured high school with, I'm not that engaged to bother to look - it's not as if I've kept in contact with any of them nor attended any reunions.
Also I'd absolutely be doing less well than the children of multi-millionaires, I'm sure! :)
But emails for some friends, texts for others and facebook for more, with discord filling in some gaps for friends with specific mutual interests.
Variety exists for a reason, after all.
Birthday calendar....literally the only useful thing now....
I had Facebook for that reason, until I realized that I was never on there enough to get the notices. So I scraped the whole thing. Add their birthday to your contacts on your phone, and the phone will remind you too. Then you don't have to worry about performative wall shit and whatnot.
I think most people use it for family but I don't use it lmao
You can message people on FB even if they are not on friends list.
That's a setting you can turn off.
I don't use Facebook, if I had Facebook I would just use the browser on mobile is stead of the app
I never ever contact people when they’re on PTO, I expect that same courtesy from others.
I have all co-workers/anyone who would contact me blocked/muted/archived everywhere.
Too many instances in the past when I’ve been contacted, sometimes for no reason (just for a chat), when I’ve been on PTO. Go away.
The only time I contact someone while on PTO is to solve a payroll issue so they can get paid properly on time.
Probably the only valid reason I can think of for a company representative to be reaching out to someone enjoying some time off.
100% for ignoring them. You know they’ll hold it against you, though, right? It might never manifest itself in a significant way, but you can be sure that when people think it’s ok to harass you on your approved time off, they also thing you’re a bad employee for not making them more important than yourself.
I know this will probably get downvoted on this forum, but from the outside looking in, wouldn't this sort of stuff be very company specific?
In my company, we're a small team with very specific skill sets. If my manager were to reach out to me during my time off, I'd assume it was genuinely critical, because it's not something he would do otherwise. On the flip side, we enjoy a high degree of trust and flexibility, with the freedom to work when and where it best suits us, as long as the work gets done (within reasonable constraints obviously). This has been the case for all my jobs (granted in a european context).
To me, this sounds like something that warrants a discussion with the employee and employer, what constitutes an emergency, when it's acceptable to reach out, how that is balanced in return etc. In fact, a little surprised this conversation wasn't had beforehand.
Well exactly. A good manager has contingencies in place. This manager sounds like a moron, and clearly can’t function if OP isn’t around, and doesn’t have the foresight to implement back up plans should OP be needed.
Manager is definitely acting like a baboon here but judging by the way OP is communicating and the way this is being handled they're certainly not helping their own case either. Applying some common sense goes a long way.
edit: ah, of course, OP has a new job lined up over the holidays, that changes the dynamics a little. But please OP, talk with your manager on your first day to set some boundaries and expectations, i'm sure that'll serve you well in your new role!
Yeah in this case it sounds like OP didn’t properly inform their back up person or manager when the project went off the rails. Generally with most companies, you prepare the person taking over your duties and it sounds like OP failed to do that.
So you didn't read OP's comment from ~9 hours before yours?
They had reviewed the project status with the manager and gone over the daily-updated company documents.
Nope missed that. I commented off of what was posted. Pertinent information like that can always be edited into the top post.
You dont live to work, you work to live your life. A amanger should get needed information from you before youre out, not harass you and if the manager doesnt do their job right. Whatever happens is on them. Its not your job to fix when youre on vacation and not being paid to. A comapny never has the right to free labor from you.
Most people don't live to work, so i don't see how that's relevant here. Just a question; don't you or the OP pop out to the dentist office or leave early sometimes for emergencies. Applying your logic in reverse, a company should never allow that as they have the right for keep you in your cubicle during whatever working hours as defined in the contract. Not saying OP should drop whatever he's doing and pull out his laptop, but there's obviously a logical way of approaching these things and blocking ain't it.
Yet simultaneously (and maybe subconsciously) thinking that responding makes you weak and a pushover.
I can imagine scenarios in which this sort of thing has happened and the person who made the mistake and had to harass employees to fix it, took the credit for doing so.
As soon as an employer puts you back in work mode while on leave, the leave clock should reset
So for instance, I’m on holiday in France and 4 days into a 2 week holiday; my boss rings my personal number, I’m getting paid double day rate and getting an additional 4 days leave that I can take whenever I want, including being added on to the current holiday
If I’m needed on a meeting on my return, tough, should have thought about that.
Contact me on day 14 to sort out attending this meeting..you’re now giving me my 14 days back, paying me double day rate for today and any other day I agree to work that was part of my amended holiday request
This would make managers much better at their jobs
Spend the rest of your PTO updating your resume and applying for a new role. If you don’t get fired on your return, you will not want to stay under that boss and higher leadership.
I would have left those FB messages unread until I got back so I’d have the opportunity to address this.
By law, we have 28 days of paid vacation per year.
One of those vacations must be at least two weeks long — also required by law.
I work at a tech corporation as a Product Manager and am responsible for three major areas.
Before going on vacation, I prepare a document that clearly outlines which projects are at which stage and who is responsible for what. By the time my vacation starts, nothing usually depends on me anymore. If something does come up, another designated manager takes over.
I believe this should be the norm in any job. While you’re away, your responsibilities are covered either by your manager or by someone else on the team.
Yes. Very similar here. Discussion w manager beforehand too ab what is going on, etc - and contact info is here as it is on all company documents.
They were harassing you for information you had already told them was on company documents that you reviewed with them?
That's wild.
I mean, you're screwed but that's temporary. That kind of stupid is a permanent life condition for the boss.
Yes it’s standard information that is on all documents for a project like this which we do on the daily.
document all the vacation contact attempts and when you get back gather up the documentation that shows they already had the info they wanted, then schedule a meeting with big boss about your managers competence issues
A company that can’t handle an employee on vacation or sick leave has bigger problems than one customer.
Exactly
Not from the shareholders point of view
Prepare for the HR meeting when you get back where you will be accused of not being a team player. Just get some tough questions ready that will put your boss on the spot
This. Document the PTO approval, any messages or places you confirmed or indicated you’d be on PTO for these dates, and all the messages and attempts to contact you during that time. Just absolutely hate the profit > people model and the face that your manager seems incompetent.
I hate when managers do this. Of course I’m not going to respond but now you’ve ruined my mood and thrown me back into thinking about work
Where I used to work, if you got a call from work while on vacation you automatically got another day of vacation and whoever called you would have to justify to hr why they needed to call you.
That’s nice
TBH I'd have left the fb messages as unread and let them know when I got back that I was hiking somewhere with no coverage.
I feel like I've read this post before. Is it because it's a repeat or just managers pull the same shit?
It happens too much, we need the right to unplug law or whatever it’s called like they just enacted in Australia, this is such an issue that laws should be written for it everywhere.
Wage theft is one of the biggest crimes in the USA. They all pull the same shit.
part of it stems from the learned behavior that to have job security these days, a person needs to have at least one important thing that no one else at the company knows how to do.
Y'all should check out the other post op did in r/askHR the amount of condescension and bootlicking in the replies there is unreal
I read it and can only say wow.
Omg I just took a look and the responses are crazy. And every single one of OPs comments were downvoted.
While you're on PTO, you might as well look for another job.
Ontario has a 'right to disconnect' law now.
When you get back to work is when you can deal with it
Just remember this story during raise time. If they can't last one day without you that's good to know.
I’d have done the minimal work they asked and demanded the vacation days back from HR upon my return.
You did everything right. Kudos on sticking to boundaries!
You're right, and you're probably about to have the concept of "cultural fit" weaponized against you.
If this is the US, there are no relevant legal protections unless your state has strong workers' rights. Few do. Without additional state laws, they can out-escalate you. I'd update the resume and see how things go.
They don’t seem like very good managers if they can’t process things without you there lol
Maybe they’ll see some of the value I bring to the table
I sure see it and I’m not your boss! lol
I would’ve responded to the first message after an appropriate amount of time, “yes, please call x and let them know, service is spotty so I’ll check in with you in after I return” and then mute his number.
PTO is important, but taking a few seconds to CYA is also important to keeping a job in this economy.
I would’ve done the same, my peace of mind is too valuable to me. I’d rather be inconvenienced for 5 minutes than have my PTO overshadowed by gnawing anxiety. Upon my return, I’d try to have HR reimburse my PTO balance for the one day. Showing the Facebook messages as “read” and ignored when you’ve already accused your boss of being retaliatory is a whole different level of interesting than I strive to be.
Fuck 'em. Enjoy your vacation. You earned it. Just maybe have that resume handy in case they decide to find ways to retaliate. Just cuz you do the right thing doesn't mean they won't do the wrong thing.
I read a couple of comments that offered "compromises" where they answered the first time or gave a reason why they couldn't be reached. That's all well and good but OP's response is the best.
RADIO SILENCE.
You owe them nothing. No explanations, no head's up, nothing..
I have anxiety and in the past I would respond and it would just escalate. I no longer do that.
OPs response is a shining example of how you have to treat people willing to encroach on your privacy.
This is why I pre-emptively block all of my coworkers on social media.
Call the guy above the district guy, tell him this story, and ask him why your manager and his manager can't manage a project in your approved time off. Ask him if he wants to just make you manager.
If he says yes, go in and fire those two. Print out the texts and Facebook messages and call logs, and use those as the reasons for underperformance.
I’m France that’s be a 1500€ fine for your boss. Per instance of messaging/calling.
I used to tell my managers that I was going hiking in a remote part of the world, or sailing on a friends boat for a couple of weeks. Basically it would be impossible for me to maintain even sporadic contact online, even making best efforts on my part. I would simply be out of range, and no I can't afford starlink, sorry boss.
This kind of thing is why I absolutely love my current management. I’ve worked for people like what you’re describing. My current manager, she caught me checking on some stuff while I was on vacation and told me “You’re marked OOO. You should go be OOO.”
That’s also why if she did call me while I’m on vacation I’d know it was a real emergency and would answer immediately.
Get the notice that you were approved and every time they contacted you, also document it on a different page listed out so they don't have to go through it. Email this information to HR and include the information about how you have approached them/boss about their retaliatory ways. Set up your defense before they retaliate so that you could sue when they inevitably do.
Document everything between them and you. If you have a conversation with them, email them and document everything they say. -as per our conversation in the coffee break room at 1:45, you mentioned that it doesn't matter if we have approved time off we are expected to respond to management. If they pull you into a meeting make sure you're recording so that you don't have to summarize what they said you could directly quote it. Assume every interaction with said boss is them setting you up to get you fired.
So OPs manager is a useless wet blanket of wasted space that cannot 'manage' their way through a single PTO, or they WON'T do it to throw OP under the bus.
Either way OP, get out of there. Use your PTO to fins a new job anf make sure once you leave you let the company know they lost you because your manager kept HARASSING you during your approved leave.
It’s highly industry dependent.
Is someone waiting for your company’s deliverables to make a timely financial decision?
“We should have gotten this information from you by now. If we don’t know the thing we hired you to tell us before year end, we will have to make a choice without that information. Telling us January 2 won’t help us. We won’t pay you for providing this information to us later than agreed this time, and there will never be another time.”
If it’s just something that will sit unread for a week instead of three weeks, yeah, that’s unnecessary.
Your expectations are not unreasonable, but frankly your boss’s expectations are not unreasonable either. However, maybe their expectations are unreasonable to have OF YOU.
I’m sure this discrepancy will be resolved in the coming days.
Your firm should have a policy of where to share project contacts to ensure they’ll be available to everyone you work with. Otherwise, “chuck was buried in an avalanche on his snowboard trip. Does anyone else have contact information for the client contacts and the other team members? Or does the whole project die with Chuck, unless they reach out to us?”
If there’s no such policy, that’s your boss’s fault (or THEIR boss’s fault) and they have made two separate mistakes: 1) making an information sharing policy that is dependent on the person in your position, and 2) hiring someone for that position that they can’t depend on.
Well done
The customer is right to lose faith in this company.
You should follow suit...
100%
As "boss" he would have wasted less time if had just called the client as good sense would dictate.
Time to reply and copy his boss and hr asking if your time off has been rescinded or not.
Yeah tell ‘em to fuck off.. it’s the company’s client.. not YOUR client.. i would not respond at all
This is why I always tell my coworkers I’m vacationing in the mountains, regardless of where Im actually going. No reception there and everyone knows it.
This is one of those stories that you are right but you will pay the consequences of your actions. I recommend starting the job hunt now and don’t repeat this story to your new company.
For now. Screenshot everything regarding your boss and the district manager from the company your company is collaborating with. Once you get back from PTO. Talk to HR and keep records of any interactions with HR for record keeping/evidence.
HR will just protect the company they don’t care about the employee. Go look at this post on r/askHR
Why do you think I also suggested keeping records of any interactions with HR. That way, if HR refuses to do anything, OP can go above his boss. And he will keep records of those interactions as well. Just keep going until something is done. And keeping records of everything. Eventually someone will do something.
Let this be a lesson for your next job after they fire you. Create boundaries and keep them
It's different for everyone. My boss and I became friends outside of work, some years after he became my boss. Heck, I invite him to watch a game or hang out at my own personal functions. At work is obviously still professional and he's my boss. Outside of work, we're friends and we're equals.
The company I work for is also very generous with work/life balance and therefore I don't have an issue assisting when I'm on PTO. It takes all of what, 15 minutes? They're happy, I look good in their eyes, and they are even more willing to adjust to times where I might need an hour here or there for personal things, without having to put in time off.
Well you are fuck. Not saying you were wrong, but that will get you targeted.
Also never be friends with anyone on social media (work related)
You are an INSPIRATION
I'm a manager for a somewhat small firm. Generally, your PTO is your time and the team will do everything in their power not to bother you but sometimes it is not avoidable and you will have information that the rest of the team needs. This also is highly tied to how well you prepared for your PTO and created a coverage plan for your projects while you are gone. If you didnt prep, expect a lot of phone calls.
Contacts, photos, field notes, etc. In these cases, I will call you and ask you for them so that we can handle things for you.
Im not saying youre in the wrong but if you are the only person with client contacts and information you need to give that information somehow if its not somewhere else. The entire company can't grind to a halt because you took PTO.
The most sensible response I’ve seen. Thanks for your reasonable perspective.
Its a give an take. If you want people to leave you alone on your PTO then prepare to take your PTO. As a manager, I still need your projects moving forward while you aren't there.
You can't just up and leave without any sort of coverage plan or backup. You OOO response alone isn't enough. Its not fair to the team to ask them to pick up your slack of not preparing.
If I do have to call you or have to ask you to send me something or do something because only you have the relevant information, I'm also going to be looking for that time on your timesheet so you're credited back the PTO hours.
And you better believe I will be pissed if you hold onto critical information then refuse to take my calls while out of office going as far to block my number.
People think their work is out to get them but the reality is as managers, we have a business to run and you're a part of our team that makes it run. Your team wants to help you and wants you to unplug but you have to make it possible for us to do that.
Working during PTO, and as well being on call during company holidays (which I was on Dec 24, and will be again on Jan 1st) and responding to emails and teams messages is just something that comes with the territory. I don’t bother with putting these onesies twosies on my timesheet (salary exempt). There is no credit back for that time on my part. Maybe I grew up in a generation that just gets stuff done and only asks for employment and a fair paycheck in return. Maybe I’ll get it back during bonus season, maybe I won’t. Refusing to respond during non business hours when you have the capacity is wrong in my eyes. I don’t expect it of others, but give it of myself. Makes me a good individual contributor and a less than optimal manager.
No. You can have policies in place at your company where all the relevant information for everything is always documented and accessible to anyone who needs it, and where certain prep is done for time off as a part of policy. If you don't have your business structured that way, that is your problem and not your employee's.
Tell him PTO means Pretend To be Offline for real
Are you on PTO or FMLA? If FMLA, they cannot contact you.
PTO - coded under “vacation”
Need me on call? Pay me like I’m on call
I'm not sure of the details of your project or who was backing you up. I agree that you shouldn't work when on PTO. What is unclear is whether you took care of everything you needed to before being off or if you left things on the table once your last shift ended.
America is hilarious
This is great. Yes, it’s harassment, but if you would for whatever reason want to stay at this toxic place, you can reference and leverage how desperate they were for you when they inevitably try to threaten your position due to holding boundaries or “not being a team player”.
Luckily you'll have all of these records of him harassing you if he does decide to retaliate
99% of the time, I’d say yeah, absolutely ignore it and enjoy your vacation. But this honestly seemed like an emergency, and on something that you were particularly responsible for (as you were the only one with the customer contacts that were needed). It also didn’t seem like they were asking for all that much, although that’s just a guess, based on your post.
So my take - as someone who has been in BOTH situations (worker and management) - is that, if you’d just answered the initial call, you could’ve either just given your boss the necessary information, or simply made the call to the customer. Either way, you’re talking about an hour, tops. Hell, do as others have mentioned and put the time in as work time instead of PTO when you get back. It would be different if they were asking you to do more than answer/make a single phone call.
There are very few times I’d ever advise someone to voluntarily do work on their PTO. This is one of those rare instances, though, where it actually was important enough to warrant as,ing for a small inconvenience.
Unfriend them on fb, it is not for work at all. Block them there.
If you want to be nice, send one message that you're out and they need to figure it out. They kdunf incompetent, professionals understand that people on vacation aren't working
Per our contract at work(union job), we have a 3 hour minimum call out. When we are bothered on vacation, even if it is 2 minutes, we are paid 3 hours and given 3 hours of vacation time back. Have had it happen many times over the years. A lot of times, emergencys happen that management is not capable of handling but it needs sorted out asap for operations to continue. So we are expected to answer the phone regardless of what is going on. BUT we are compensated very well for that. I am not saying you are wrong in what you did. If supervison can't handle an issue, they should of let you know of the expectation before you left on PTO.
Are you asking for a legal recourse? There is none.
While they shouldn't have called you, strictly speaking, you're being an ass. Especially because a client is being left hanging. I don't agree with your measurement's behavior, but yours is also lacking. A 10-minute call would have resolved everything, and I don't see that as ruining your PTO.
I purposely turn read receipts off. Plausible denialibility. "Did you get my texts? " nope. I was in the woods/ the country/ the Andes mountains/otherwise unavailable.
There are no boundaries with these people. That is the milieu they work in.
You can expect they will retaliate.
I think the most important things is...are you lining up your next job? They already showed no problem in crossing your boundaries (unless there is an interrupt PTO clause) and escalating the issue. Your boss is not gonna suddenly go, "He didn't answer so I escalated to upper management and he blocked them too. Man, he really must be enjoying his well deserved PTO. Let's give him a break and figure this out so he can come back from PTO with a clean slate."
Yeah, they're def gonna retaliate. Get your next job lined up...or if you can't afford to for financial or career reasons...document as if you will be presenting stuff to a lawyer.
Why is management contacting you via FB messenger? Are they friends on your FB account? Is this a work FB account? These are definite boundary violations and you are well within your right to ignore or bill them for the hours worked, deduct from your approved vacation. Your choice, but you won't really get that time back.
Have you told them to stop bothering you while you're on PTO? Lots of commentors are going scorched Earth right away, but a simple direct response should be done first.
Should you have to do that? No, but here you are because your manager lacks common sense. Prepare to escalate the situation if needed, but just address the elephant in the room first.
For the first time ever, I had an old boss 7 years ago constantly calling and texting me on my actual DAYS OFF. In his mind we were "salaried" so we had no schedule. I clapped back saying "if that is the case, when I get my work done in 2 hours, I can leave for the day then" and I also told him the reason I didn't answer his calls/text is because I have a dedicated second line labeled WORK PHONE when I am on duty and I turn it OFF when not. I really don't have a second line.
Real talk: you will be let go when you get back to work. You should never have responded or read at all.
At an ex-employer, before I would take time off. my boss would let me know that he needed a way to contact me while I was out. I would tell him that I was going to be in an area without cell service and then point to some place like the Bob Marshall Wilderness and tell him that he could always call and check with the park rangers, but that it would probably take them a week or so to find me.
He’s also the same d-bag that wanted me to cancel my honeymoon because he was worried that my project would go sideways while I was out. This was despite the fact that the project was moving forward ahead of schedule and I had prepped everyone and had another engineer prepared to step in should it be necessary. I just told him that I’d see him when I got back and that if he wanted to fire me for that, it was OK with me.
You did the right thing. They are managers but they cant MANAGE this situation?
My thoughts exactly
'asking if “we” needed to call the customer'
"We" do, but I'm on vacation, so you'll have to call.
If your boss has to "check" with you for guidance, one of you is in the wrong position.
I worked as an accounting manager for a large corporation that did this exact same thing to me. They laid me off a week before Thanksgiving due to “budget cuts”. Don’t worry, you did the right thing.
My boss basically said he didn’t want to pay us to come in on the day after Christmas, so told us not to come in. He’s still messaging me.
Sounds like they need you more than you need them.
You work for a 100% dysfunctional organization.
It IS a huge boundary violation. I would’ve done the same thing .
only do so if they give you your PTO days back and then pay for your time at triple the rate. You know, because fuck em.
On my days off or PTO time, my phone is on DND (Do Not Disturb) mode. I tell every job I've worked that I do this. Some complained about not being a team player. I just rolled my eyes with those people...
People wander why my boss gets put on DND when my two days off roll around
Block that manager's number and block him from FB and any other way he tries to contact you. Forward what you have to HR and the manager's boss. Enjoy your time off.
Why can’t your counterpart deal with this? A company should not come to a standstill bc one person is ooo. If your knowledge/contributions can bring the whole system to a halt you should ask for more money.
I had a manager once asked me to do a project off the clock on my days off, but luckily HR was around and overheard, so the lady from HR said “no you can’t ask her to do that because she can come back around and sue us for pay” (which is true, I would def sue for back pay if they didn’t pay me for it), nonetheless asking me to do something on my days off. I never do work for free.
You did the right thing.
Tell them, “if you’re willing to pay me a minimum of one hour, at tripple time pay, then I’ll respond to off-time messages. But you WILL be billed for my time.”
As soon as they messaged you on social media, it crossed the line from inappropriate to harassment imo. If they can't function without you on your time off, you should be spending time looking for a new, functional workplace. If they don't give you on-call money, make the switch
The younger generations are spot on for their responses. I am on vacation, don’t bother me. I am 65, retired now fully and would never do this. Let me preface that my first 22 years were spent in a Marine officers uniform. Being on “leave” just meant you took your work with you. Even before the wonderful cell phone invention answering calls on leave were expected of us. At first I resented it, then grew to expect it and answered all calls and handled them as quick as I could. For me it was about loyalty to the Corps. Then to the defense company that hired me and lastly to the students in my classroom. What did it cost me? Nothing. Did I get angry? Maybe, a little bit but you are either in our out. Definitely a generational thing. It doesn’t bother me if you disapprove of my stance. It doesn’t matter any more because now I live in the world of six Saturday’s and a Sunday. I don’t even know what my hardest decision is.
Counting down the years until I can... Maybe? Get there myself. Semper fi and thank you for your service.
Unrelated, which flavor of crayon is your favorite?
Feel like I’m taking crazy pills. Could you not have saved yourself a ton of stress and negative hit to your reputation by simply calling your boss back and passing some customer contact information onto them? It would have taken less time than writing this post.
You do not have strong boundaries. I am on leave. What that means is I AM NOT AVAILABLE TO YOU AT ALL. Im not less available. Im not available at all. It wasn't just some contact info...it would have turned into more.
It would have been easier and less stressful if they hasn't called or emailed.
That would be working, for free.
I actually think you handled this poorly. Ignoring them is a guaranteed way to cause you problems in work.
Instead you should have responded within a reasonable time with a message along the lines of:-
“I’m sorry but I cannot help with this. I am on approved leave and not available to work during this period and have other plans. I will do all I can to help when I return to the office once my approved leave has concluded.”
Then don’t respond to any more messages.
As a manager your bosses were wrong, however I feel you were also. Your manager shouldn’t have kept pestering you and realistically harassing you while on PTO. Where I feel you were wrong is that you should have answered that first message saying that yes he should probably call the client and take 5 minutes of your time to give a quick run down if he needed. He should not expect you to call the client or be more than just a quick help to get them up to speed. I mean quick like 5 minutes max. After that then you continue with that you’re on PTO and have no access to work product and can’t help any further.
With that, you choose to ignore and not help and they continued to harass you and you should go to HR about that and get it documented and recorded. If they retaliate they don’t really have a leg to stand on but if they can’t trust you they may not keep you employed.
Me personally, I would have reached out to see your thoughts if you were lead on a project with a quick message and left it at that. If you left me on read for too long I would have proceeded to discuss with the team the standing and called the client myself to explain the issue.
As an example since it never fails, I had a guy ask if he could take the two days before Christmas off the night before. I asked where he stood on his projects and they were all great so I said sure no worries. Then the first day he’s out a client reached out asking for some addition work asap. I explained that their tech is out of office and will be back January 2nd (we get Christmas through New Year’s off at our firm and he asked to take the 23rd and 24th off the night of the 22nd). They explained that they really needed it faster. So I looked through the work got a couple questions that I needed my guy to answer so that I’m not wasting my time digging for something that doesn’t exist. I sent him one message asking the questions and about an hour later he saw the message and took a couple minutes to respond. I thanked him and had no need to bother him again. I reached back out to the client and did the work myself.
He reached out a couple hours later asking if I needed anything else and I told him to go enjoy his time off and thanked him for checking in but we got it covered.
Lastly, I will reiterate your bosses and managers failed you big time, and I don’t blame you for not wanting to respond when they act like that. I feel you’re slightly to blame got not taking a couple of minutes with the first message to answer a quick question and remind them you’re on PTO. BUT NEVER let them walk over you. I do get the feeling that that would have kept pushing if you did answer and they would have ruined your PTO. But we won’t know now. Sorry for the long comment. Hopefully it helps someone.
I think it's pretty normal that if your in a unique position or a position of authority, such as a project manager or team leader, that if shit hits the fan or gets delayed (which can also mean shits hitting the fan), that there's a possibility you will get called, even while on PTO. While you may feel its an abuse of boundaries, your clients, regardless of your vacation message, are probably expecting the project to continue on as planned.
What I would do, is instead of ghosting out of spite, is record any work you HAVE done while on PTO and give that info to HR as you may be entitled to some sort of reimbursement such as additional time off or monetary compensation for not actually taking your PTO. Like 30 minutes to read and respond to a text or email, hour to call the client, etc. These numbers can be inflated.
Good luck to you when you return to work.