Hi,
i m inexperienced, paranoid and might be overly carefull, but i am wondering if there is a way of Identifing pure merle breeds (which are prohibited in my country)? I just read they have a lot of white.
The puppy from the picture is currently living with the mother at the breeders home, but the father is from another city, so i wont visit him. I think thats pretty normal.
I probably will get papers from both parents, but there is no way to actually know if the papers are really from that the parents, right?
Is it common to genetically test the puppies or is testing the parents sufficant?
Don’t know what “pure merle breeds” are, do you mean double merle? This puppy is a blue merle, doesn’t appear to be a double. Double merles are mostly white, especially around the eyes and ears. Ask for genetic testing results and pictures of both parents if they haven’t already provided those.
Thanks <3. Yes, by "pure" i meant that both parents have the mutation, so double.
Serious question: Whats stopping the breeder from just showing me papers from another dog?
The level of fraudalancy between selling a double merle as a normal one and switching papers seems the same to me?
Maybe because more accountability is established and i could sue easier?
Wait both parents are Merle’s? I thought they weren’t supposed to breed two together cuz it causes tons of complications in the puppies.
They aren’t.
Merle is a dominant allele. So if you cross two merle dogs, you'll have a 25% chance of a non-merle puppy, 50% chance of a merle puppy, and 25% chance of a double merle puppy. Double merle causes malformation of the eyes, blindness, deafness, neurological and heart issues, etc. A puppy born to two merle parents can be healthy, but the fairly large (25%) chance of having a puppy with such severe health problems deters responsible breeders from breeding two merle dogs.
There is a 25% chance of being double Merle, not 25% of “severe health complications”. Some double Merle puppies have no secondary conditions other than white fur. My MM is deaf, but I’d hardly describe that as a severe health complication.
i mean, realistically- it is. in nature your baby wouldn't survive and you had to adapt to communicate with your baby. it might not be NOW, but they're missing one of their 5 senses! that's pretty big
I am just explaing my wrongly used terminology. I dont think they are.
But some breeders do that and because I wasnt there when they made love, i am asking if there is a good way to tell from the looks of the offspring. : D
Short answer: if the puppy was the kind of “double Merle” that you’re worried about you would easily be able to tell. This one is safe.
Longer answer: Every Merle you see walking around has one dominant Merle gene that gives them the look and one recessive non-Merle gene doing work behind the scenes. The Merle gene is like an expansion pack for a game— you need at least one copy of “Australian shepherd standard edition” before you can play Merle.
Since a puppy will need at least one copy of the non-Merle gene to live a good life, it’s very irresponsible to breed two Merles. You have a 50% chance for each parent to pass on the Merle gene, which means one puppy in four will get two copies and have severe birth defects. That’s the double Merle you hear horror stories about. Even if both parents were Merle, you’ve already dodged the bullet now that the puppy is born healthy. It will be genetically no different from any other Merle puppy.
This puppy isn’t a double merle just by looking at it so that should give you a little reassurance. Look at reviews from other people who have purchased from the breeder. Reputable breeders would never switch papers on you so just make sure they have good credentials.
You go to a reputable breeder and don't buy from a puppy mill
Have you googled pictures of double Merles? My friend had one that was deaf & they always look almost snowfall white with patches of merling & virtually no sable except on the haunches.
Your pup is 100% blue Merle, not a double. Meet it in person if you can so you can gauge temperament, but it looks like a normal pup to me.
Here’s my Merle sheltie as a puppy.
https://preview.redd.it/slwdgsze308g1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=04f93d7507e853ce96aef5b7c1f75b8698e2463d
Yeah i did before posting. Results were not helpful, without experience. But another user also posted a good picture. Thank you, too.
https://preview.redd.it/6ecbv18x0z7g1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5bd0545df883e10b69dff036f052d568b1b102b6
This is a double Merle. Different breed, but if you zoom, you can see his eye area is pink, the iris is blue, but the pupils are funny shaped. They don't dilate properly, causing sensitivity to bright lights. His eye balls are also small and appear to sink into his skull. Hes also hard of hearing. I would ask for a close up of the puppies eyes, but that does not appear to be a double to me.
Your pup looks so much like mine 💕
Great Dane/poodle
The pupils may be an iris coloboma, which is a deformity of the iris. This is common in aussies, but is a separate issue from double Merle. Any responsible breeder should be getting puppies eye checked at 6-8 weeks and a coloboma would be documented.
Thanks!
I’d be willing to bet that dog is not a double Merle. It’s got a lot of non-white colors that will darken as it ages. Additionally, double merles have pink skin around their eyes and this puppy clearly does not. As for determining if the breeder is legitimate, they should provide papers, including pictures of both parents and grandparents at the very least. I have papers that go back 4 lines on my Aussie. The ‘papers’ should include health testing and registration with whatever the top registry for dogs is in your country; in the US it’s AKC. They should also provide health and genetic testing as required by the registry and whatever is standard for the breed. Breeders that are legit won’t be trying to make loads of money from the puppies so in the US, any price over $3000 is going to raise my red flags. My dog 8 years ago was $2000, but prices for vet care and vaccines have gone up significantly. They shouldn’t be producing litter after litter as well. Any breeder that’s advertising more than two litters a year and is breeding the same dog over and over should raise red flags. Additionally, legit breeders do what they do because they love the breed so they’re going to be showing their dogs or participating in agility or herding trials. When you visit the puppies, look around the home and see how the breeder is taking care of the dogs. The space should be kept clean and shouldn’t smell like urine or poop. Use common sense. I know it’s exciting to be getting a puppy and it’s easy to fall instantly in love, but if you have any red flags be prepared to walk away. Or be prepared to care for a dog with health problems. Good luck.
Okay thanks. From phone I got a pretty good feeling. No real red flags yet. I checked several recommendations for good breeders in the last weeks.
Only negatives:
-She does not do dog sports or ring shows.
-3 litters in the last year
-No intoduction to kids, seniors or other dog races or other animals
-Probablx No formal professional temperament/social testing
-I had a feeling she is downplaying the activity-needs of a herd dog ("this is the show line, not the work line", no warning in the ebay-describtion)
-No Homepage, sold on ebay
But i guess i can get the most important info, when i visit.
eBay?
An Online Selling platform
Yes sorry I know all about eBay, just shocked there’s no web site (esp for 3 litters/year), just an online bidding mall account.
Mhh yeah. Me too. I will ask for the reason.
Did you do a reverse image search? Because honestly the ebay part seems to lean more into “scam” rather than the whole double merle possibility. Also in order for a puppy to even have papers (like AKC), the litter has to be registered. The parents are listed, the colors of the parents are listed, the puppies are given individual numbers for registrations, and (with the AKC) it can be either a full registration (i.e. the puppy’s descendants can also be registered) or limited registration (the puppy has registration but any descendants would not- usually used for pet dogs).
No, did not do a reverse search. I have no doubt this is a real breeder.
I will demand copies of the papers of both parents, when i visit the puppy.
I am not sure about papers of the puppies, though. My understanding was, that only dogs used for breeding need to be registered at the breeder-organisations.
No, registration also opens up different sporting events. Like an AKC agility event will probably require proof of registration, while an All Breed agility event won’t care if you run hodge-podge nobody knows until the DNA is tested mutt.
But thats only made if the person who adopt the dog especially ask for it, right? Or do reputable breeders give them to everyone?
I dont plan to participate in fair sporting competitive sports.
If i do sports, i wouldnt want to have the best dog. I would just want him to have fun - might as well be competing with mixed dogs or completly other dog breeds.
Reputable breeders give the papers for the registered puppies to the new owners. That's the whole point is proving the lineage. Granted it's up to the owners to actually fill out the paperwork and send it in, the puppies have a more or less temporary registration and you have to send in the paperwork within a certain time or it expires (this is all AKC related as I'm somewhat familiar with them), you can get the registration redone later if you let it expire-I think- but it's more complicated.
My dog is from a show line too but he is a very active dog. He also has a very strong herding instinct that came out around 18 months. She’s def downplaying the activity level! Which isn’t necessarily a red flag unless she’s making guarantees that the dog won’t need a high degree of physical activity.
Okay thanks.
I told her pretty quick i was aware about high the activity level of the breed, so i am not sure, what she would have said.
Do not get this puppy. No responsible breeder sells through ebay. No showing is fine but no dog sports? Yeah that’s a massive red flag for me. These dogs excel in dog sports. They need an outlet for all that energy.
As others have said double merle is irresponsible backyard breeders. My girl is merle, half the litter is merle and half are tricolour, merle mum and tri dad. I know someone who’s had double merle Aussie’s and they are deaf or half blind and deaf. She rescues them.
Yeah, the ebay thing is very... scammy to me. I know some breeders out there require deposits (I haven't personally dealt with any), but I've never paid for a puppy unless they are in my possession as I chat with the breeder.
This is a sheltie pup, right?
Nvm the nose to tail proportion always throws me off when I see an Aussie with a tail
Shetland sheepdog?
No. Its a Mini american shepherd
Girl this is 100% a backyard bred, poorly bred dog and the owner is a scammer who craps out multiple litters in a year, because they make profit off it. Maybe you’re colourblind when you refer to no red flags?
Not colorblind, but inexperienced.
I will visit today and look if there is a backyard or other signs of mass breddings and I will ask about the reasons for the other red flags.
Backyard breeding doesn't mean they're literally breeding in a backyard. It means they have no experience with breeding/are breeding for quick money.
When I got my purebred I had to sign about 5 different papers and put down a deposit before I could even reserve the puppy. But if they have merle in them they should be providing paperwork with the puppy to ensure that they've been checked for certain health issues, and that they've had required shots with a registered vet before they're given to you.
If the puppy is being offered to you before 8 weeks old, it's also another sign of a backyard breeder. A puppy should be staying with the mom for a minimum of 8 weeks, but ideally 10.
Yeah thanks. I visited two breeders this weekend. Both of them plan to give them out at week 9/10.
I wouldnt classify the first one as a classical mill, but the conditions were bad and too many suspicions were raised.
The one today was probably a puppy mill. She wanted to get the puppies outside to me and another visitor. I suggested we visit all the puppies at the place they currently grow up. She had a bullshit excuse. I insisted and threaten to leave. She said "ok leave" and i left.
If you go on the akc.com website they have registered breeders
Thanks. I am in germany, but i identified the german counterparts.
Oh you are in Germany. Did you mean eBay Kleinanzeigen where you found the dog? ( which is just Kleinanzeigen now, eBay isn’t involved anymore)
Anyway if the breeders are not part of the VDH or FCI they are most likely Vermehrer ( backyard breeder) without all the required health testing the parents would need BEFORE they are allowed to breed.
The puppy doesn’t appear to be double Merle but the “breeder” should be able to completely proof that the claimed parentage is truthful.
Yeah. As i said above. I visited. That puppy from the picture was probably not a backyard breeder, but a bad one. But the definition is a range and oversimplified i guess and i havent visited good breeders especially with the VDH/FCI labels, yet, so could be wrong, but i am not adopting there anyways.
There was another one i visited, which was also not a backyard breeder, but probably a puppy mill. And im only writing the "probably" because i dont want to get sued. Different from the first breeder, this one had the space and money (a whole farm, also breeding horses).
The first could just be incompetent/too poor, but the second one had seemed obviously deceiving and profit maximizing.
A double Merle will be missing pigment around its eyes and ears. The color genes are linked with hearing and vision, so if color is missing, there is a higher likelihood of blindness/deafness. This puppy looks fine.
My college buddy rescued a deaf double Merle Aussie pound pup. She learned hand signals surprisingly fast & was an amazing companion for almost 17 years, but she was 100% deaf & that brought its own set of issues as she aged
What does the breeder say about hip, elbow and eye testing? Also, did they do full genetic testing? There's a lot more than double merle to worry about. The comment about show lines, ha! My show line boy has tons of energy with insanely strong herding instincts. Given that this breeder hasn't exposed the puppies to various people and there's no temperament evaluation going on, plus some other things you mention, I'd pass on this breeder.
Yes, they do the testings- with the parents.
I dont think they will do the testing with the offspring.
OP, I would listen to LianeP and pass on this breeder. If they don’t include temperament in the breeding choices and have bred the same female 3 times this year, they’re most likely backyard breeders and you’re going to ga e a puppy with a lot of health issues. Also, herding breeds are herding breeds. There aren’t show herding breeds and herding breeds. I have 4 corgis, another herding breed, and 3 are purebred AKC registered, along with their parents. I got to know a lot about herding breeds from the breeder. Please pass/do not buy a dog from this breeder.
I dont think it was the same female. Just 3 litters in total this year.
When i asked if she is in a breeding association, she answered:
"MASCA or ASDR"
which confused me because 1) why is there an "or"?! You either registered or your not, right? 2) why is she not part of a german association, but an american one instead?
I looked up both and neither are nationally accredited. MASCA is for profit, ASDR is nonprofit run by volunteers. But if they’re not nationally accredited, it doesn’t mean anything. Breeders pay a fee and buy the label of being MASCA and ASDR certified. Listen to everyone here, please, and don’t buy from this breeder.
You are right, the breeder should be registering her dogs with a German or European registry. But also ASCA (Australian Shepherd Club of America) has a large and active European presence. So, if you decide to look for another breeder, you can look for one with ties to ASCA. The European folks I've met at Nationals are truly passionate about the breed.
most of the health testing can’t be done until they’re at least two years old
Pretty sure merle x merle breeding is prohibited everywhere since it is not healthy. You can ask for the breeding documents (all legally bred puppies should have them, at least in my country they have to) and you can see the parents on there.
Plenty of color on the nose, around the eyes and ears. The colored patches will likely spread as the pup grows bigger. This looks like a healthy Merle pup, but not the dangerous/illegal kind of Merle. We call those double Merles.
I would however be wary of purchasing from a breeder as many of them are puppy mills and quite unethical. Just make sure you do your research and due diligence in selecting a breeder and dog.
That dog looks very much like our girl as a puppy, and our dog has a Merle mom and black Tri dad. Your dog does not look like a double Merle
Sure, that's a dog
Adopt don’t shop. That dog is 100% from a mill and mother is on 3rd litter at least
Yeah, probably.
I will visit today. I check how many mother dogs i will see there and what the conditions are. I will make sure to check the locations for more indicators of a mill.
My boy had a merle mom and a red tri dad but came out as so dilute that he is considered a color fault, but not bad breeding. What you are referring to I think is double merle / lethal white. They have a distinctive white head and typically have vision& hearing issues. My boys body is mostly white now with normal markings around the head. He hasn't had any health issues generally but we have always been convinced he had poorer vision and now that he's 13 he can barely see. I also happen to have a ferret who is mostly white who is deaf and we didn't realize he had that until we had had him home for a month. If you don't trust the feedback you are getting from a breeder and they are not up front about you reviewing health info or letting you meet the parents, move on. If you fall in love with a pupper but have concerns I feel like checking to see if he can track with his eyes and reacts to noises (we realized the weasel was deaf when he didn't notice I was vacuuming until he was almost under it) might help you make a decision.
You can tell by the pupils/eyes that it is not a double merle
You would likely have to get the dog genetically tested. Only a specific percentage (around 25%) of dogs bred Merle to Merle will exhibit the signs of being double Merle, such as excessive whiteness, hearing and/or vision loss.
My girl is mostly white and I was concerned too. First trip to the vet he waved his finger in front of her to see if her eyes tracked, and did a finger snap on each side of the head to see if she heard it. That was it. Something easy you can try when you meet.
Side note: I got my girl to be a friend, not a show dog, so I’m not hung up on her genetic makeup like some people are.