Felony murder is applied to some total BS. Like you loan your keys to your friend and your friend drives your car, unbeknownst to you, and kills someone. It’s totally out of hand in this country. Not saying that’s what happened here. I didn’t watch the clip.
By that logic, her friend Paris should've also been convicted of felony murder, because Trinity Madison Pogue texted her that she hated the baby and wanted to kill it, and Paris didn't report it to the police. The fact that Paris didn't get charged with anything is a disgrace. She could've prevented this. Trinity sent her threatening texts about killing the baby, and she didn't report them to the cops. So as far as I'm concerned, she is a co-conspirator, and just as guilty of that baby's murder.
Felony murder is when you are intentionally committing another felony and the that leads to the death of a person. Meaning the intent wasn’t to kill but the intent was to commit a felony and the effect is a person died. So like a getaway driver hitting a pedestrian or your robbing someone and you associate shoots them.
Felony murder you don’t have to be the person who commits the act that directly causes the death (such as the example given where a partner in crime does it).
Manslaughter there was no intent to kill someone, but the defendant was reckless, negligent or in the heat of passion killed someone and it has a lessor penalty.
Felony murder the perpetrator had the intent to commit a felony and someone was killed. Felony murder has the same penalty as murder (generally speaking).
Pardon, I should have been more clear in my example. So the getaway driver intended to get away fast and accidentally hit and kill a pedestrian. So the getaway driver (and everyone else involved in the robbery) is guilty of murder even though no one intended to kill the pedestrian they hit, because they intended to be part of the robbery which led to the death.
So, say for example 5 guys are robbing a store, right? 4 of them were planning on leaving if the dude behind the register didn't hand over the cash at gunpoint. The 5th dude murders the cashier. The guy who pulled the trigger gets first degree the other 4, who didn't have any intention of killing, or maybe were all unarmed, are all charged with felony murder, and face the same consequences as first degree.
Unfortunately, it's actually significantly easier to get a felony murder charge, because you need significantly less evidence to get a charge, and if J remember correctly, there was one dude who got life in prison because he let his roommate borrow his car, and his roommate broke into someone's house with a few accomplices, murdered the owner, and they all got charged with felony murder, including the guy that lent the car keys, despite the fact that the owner of the car was a 3-4 hour drive away from the murder when it happened.
TL:DR Even the smallest connection to the crime can get felony murder, whereas all other murder charges require way more evidence and procedures. It carries the same penalties as first degree despite that.
Malice murder is only in effect in the state of Georgia, it's when someone unlawful kills someone with a "malignant heart," people charged with malice murder get the same treatment as first degree murder.
So it's a reworded version of first degree murder specific to Georgia. That's interesting. So, malice murder = first degree murder and felony murder = manslaughter everywhere outside of Georgia.
No. Manslaughter is manslaughter everywhere (pretty much). Felony murder is felony murder everywhere (pretty much). Manslaughter has recklessness or negligence as the mens rae (state of mind of the defendant), but no intent to kill or in the heat of passion.
Manslaughter is killing without intent and therefore not murder, so it has a much lessor penalty. In felony murder the intent was to commit another felony and that intent is transferred to the new crime: murder, so generally carries the same penalty as first degree murder. Basically, if you wrong a bank and your partner shoots someone you go to jail for most of the rest of your life like you killed then yourself.
Manslaughter would be I came home, found my wife in the arms of another and flew into a fit of rage and killed someone without intending to.
Happened in my hometown at the university dorms. Absolutely tragic case and she got off easier than she deserved ngl. Judge even said something to the effect of, I hope you can find a semblance of structure in life after your sentance, in the last hours of the case. If it were me no parole no nothing.
I know right? I was thinking she must have let herself go fast or that the stress of being on trial for murder took a lot out of her (which, boohoo, I know). But she actually looks better here than in her beauty pageant pictures imo.
The way her face turns after the judge starts reading out the guilty verdicts reminds me American Psycho. When Bateman finishes a conversation his face changes the exact same way. It's like the real monster is peaking out from under the curtain
Because justice isnt vengeance. That's why. We are disgusted by what she's done. Enraged even. However, justice is blind and isnt swayed by what we want or feel, but what the law demands.
Well, that isnt what justice called for here, now is it? If you and others believe it is unjust, perhaps you'd do good reaching out to your local lawmakers and get the ball rolling.
Yes, you could argue that the law isnt always "fair". As a black man, my heritage and I agree with you wholeheartedly. As an Amercian, I suggest you do your part by making your concerns known in a way that actually does something. Something more than Reddit.
“I don’t do a lot of speaking when I’m passing the sentence,” Judge W. James Sizemore Jr. of the Southwestern Circuit Court of Georgia told the court, according to Court TV. “The bottom line is you're going to receive a sentence of life in prison, which is the appropriate sentence for the conduct that you have been convicted of.”
She got a life sentence, with the possibility of parole after 30 years. Which is unlikely because it's a baby death case. But she is gonna do well in prison. She's gonna enjoy her life sentence. She handled this embarrassing situation well. She will do just fine in the slammer.
There’s something really off about her. She’s bonkers. She would’ve ended up in prison somehow. If it wasn’t for this, it would’ve been for something else eventually.
The only time felony murder doesn't apply is if your last name ends in Sackler and you create an epidemic of addiction (causing tens if not hundreds of thousands of deaths down the line) to line your own pockets.
Because “felony murder” is a legal loophole to sentence people for murder even though they didn’t do the murdering. If your friend borrowed your car and then murdered someone, you could be charged for felony murder for assisting him in the murder just because he used your car.
Only if the jury believes you knew they were going to be using the car for that. And the jury could make that finding, even if it's not really true, based on very flimsy evidence.
You have an awful lot of faith in the system, but clearly don't understand it. A jury finding that the defendant intended to help by lending his car would be very hard to get reversed on appeal.
I had a client once who gave $10 to his buddy in jail, so the buddy could use the money to buy cigarettes. The buddy tried to use the $10 to bribe someone and escape, which led my client to be convicted of helping with the escape.
Yeah I'm not talking about in this case I'm talking about in some case where the sentenced party did not have any adequate evidence to prove this fact but in the specific referenced case of Ryan Holle he did know about the crime his vehicle was being used for by his own admission.
As for your story, sounds made up. If you couldn't get that overturned you're bad at your job.
I’d recommend watching the John Oliver episode covering this because he has many examples, one being this exact scenario, where a man let his roommate borrow his car, went back asleep, and woke up the next morning with police arresting him for felony murder. He had no clue what was happening or what had been done.
He never knew, his friend and roommate simply asked to borrow the car. He had no fucking clue what the intention would be. Absolutely wild I have to sit here and defend this but I guess you’re okay with murder charges against people who don’t commit them.
Yeah he gave statements alleging he knew of the robbery which resulted in a murder. He purposefully lent his car for that purpose so is consistent with felony murder
He said he thought the discussion of robbery was a joke. He did not say that he intended to help with the robbery.
Of course, I don't know what was in his head. Neither do you. But the jury can find he intended to help (intent, i.e., purpose, is different than knowledge, btw) on very skinny evidence.
I'm not disputing that it's consistent with felony murder. I am saying that the felony-murder rule is bad and we should get rid of it.
Yeah he changed his story and only said he thought it was a joke later after he realized he was being charged accessory. While being interviewed he claimed he knew his car was being used for a crime but he didn't know about any intent to commit murder.
Having said that I'd agree his sentence was way too hard for his miniscule involvement.
I have no idea the factual details of his case. (When my cases show up in the media, the details are always wrong.) But from what I can see, I am fairly confident that 1) the evidence was legally sufficient to show that he intended to assist the robbery, but 2) I am skeptical that he really did intend to assist the robbery, and 3) sending him to prison for decades was an outrageous injustice.
The felony murder rule is a bad policy and we should get rid of it. I don’t know if the story at the top of the thread is an injustice, or a fair outcome for a wicked murderer, or something else. Even the worst and dumbest criminal laws will sometimes catch evil people who deserve punishment.
You’re crazy dude. Absolutely crazy. He didn’t do anything. He lent a friend and roommate a car without any prior knowledge of what he intended to do. Jesus fucking Christ you’re crazy.
Its also just rough to understand that you'll never enjoy another moment of life again, or at least not in the way you've known it up to this point. I'd probably shuffle off the plank real quick if faced with a life sentence. Not worth it.
Yah, I’ve read a couple accounts from people who were either in prison or worked in prisons and they all say something like this:
there’s a social hierarchy in prison, and the pedophile and those who hurt children are at the bottom of it but as long as they don’t cause any problems they don’t get messed with and they certainly not getting beaten everyday.
I guess it's just me. But the question I always ask about these things is ,why? We're in this person's head both morally and logically thinks it's a good idea to take from your lover something so precious? It just makes no sense.
Watch the women in the back, I believe this was the baby’s grandmother. Watch how steady she remains. I’ve watched this a few times wondering how she remains stoic through this roller coaster. That kind of strength is astonishing. I’m wondering if this is women has a deep sense of faith? The last few years have been difficult for me and I’ve been repeatedly encouraged to have faith that a higher power has a plan and everything will work out in the end. That’s what I think this woman is doing here. Idk if she will ever see this or if I’m way off base and she’s just a reporter or someone detached from the case. But watching her has given me an example of what I’ve been told to do but couldn’t really wrap my head around. So either way I want to thank her for this.
As for the defendant, she got what she had coming to her. This was a little (absolutely adorable) baby being raised by a single father. She has no place in society.
Because she's genetically related to the murderer, which means she may have the kind of genes that can go one way or the other - either very very stoic, or very very sociopathic. So she may be a sociopath like the murderer, or she may just be a stoic. These margins are more thin than you think, and trauma does a lot of damage to people through generations.
I'm not the person you're asking. but likely, no. not at all.
I think a huge part of the "God has a plan" view is, it's a big picture sorta thing. it's not for pleasure or comfort of the individual. so, the individual is gonna disagree with things that happen. and that's something the individual has to accept.
I think what this triggers in the mind of people is an expansion of perspective. the simple idea of "this existence is not about me" can be so powerful if it's fully believed. and I think religion does that for alot of people.
I don’t think “God has a plan” or “it’s God’s will” is supposed to point you to look at the bigger picture. I think it’s something people say so they can dismiss that good people sometimes have a bad hand dealt them by life. I think it’s a convenient dismissal of others’ feelings so people don’t have to be empathetic.
I was in a bad situation when I was pregnant with my first child. 25 weeks pregnant and literally about to deliver. I was looking for reassurance and the nurse told my husband “sometimes, it’s God’s will”. That’s comforting for her, but it sure as hell wasn’t for us. I reported her to my doctor a couple months later when I was getting a checkup while my son was in the NICU. That was not empathy or support—that’s giving up and imposing your beliefs on someone at their lowest. (FTR: the kid is good and about to get his driver’s license.)
Which isn’t just wrong but dangerous. People believing they’re parts of something bigger or a grand plan or divine intervention or the argument of determinism is part of the reason the world is as fucked as it is today. The idea that predestination is real TRANSFERS THE BURDENS OF CHOICE to an ethereal non existent plate, I.e. god. How many times have you heard of people doing dumb, dangerous, or otherwise deplorable things and justifying it by saying “it was gods will” or “god told me to do it”?
The world is a bunch of particles colliding at random angles and intervals. Coincidence is nothing more than coincidence. Your choices have consequences, and your choice is your choice.
plenty of things can potentially cause people to avoid choice or responsibility. the scientific concept of determinism does both of these things to people on a regular basis. that doesn't mean determinism is incorrect or inherently bad.
it's just a result of how many people the concept reaches, and the variation in how humans can interpret or contextualize things.
Whether what is correct? That god has a plan? I’m not arguing whether god is real or not. I’m saying people use that as a justification to commit horrible actions.
Determinism is not scientific lol. It’s a pseudo philosophical, more often religiously fueled ideology.
I’m not arguing whether god is real or not. I’m saying people use that as a justification to commit horrible actions.
yes and I'm saying people can use any number of things to justify horrible actions. that's the effect of having a mind that can make a decision first, and then find reasoning for it afterward.
someone can find a study showing how selfish humans are inherently, and use that as a reason to commit mass murder. I think it would be silly to look at that situation, and be upset at the study. rather than being upset at the person.
it depends on what you mean by "problem study". is there an argument to be made it should be taken away from public viewing? yea maybe, I'm fine with conceding that.
I think if we tried to do that with religion, you know how it would work out. it would simply stay. too many people already have their heels dug in, it might just make them more passionate about it. it could cause violence in areas where religious violence isn't common.
We don’t need to remove it from the public, it’s doing that to itself already. Each generation is less and less religious and hopefully eventually it will be relegated to the dark corners of the world.
Take a look at that woman who was looking to churches for baby formula. Stuff like that is also gods will. Look at the Muslims (I was raised Muslim) committing honor killings all over the globe. That’s gods plan too. Look at what’s happening at the West Bank. Totally gods will, on both sides.
The more and more organized religion keeps trying to justify atrocities and atrocious behavior, the more people will pull away because they recognize that it’s nothing more than a grift. All I have to do is call out their atrocious behavior in threads like this to plant the seed that grows .
I’m gonna catch shit for replying here it feels like - but yeah man that’s how it works. If one believes that God has plans then that means he has plans for everything. The bad and the good are included, I’m no Christian, but I’m able to understand their faith and if your comment was meant to shake belief then it’s not gonna work because those who truly believe would absolutely agree that yes it’s terrible the baby is dead, but it’s also something beyond our ability to understand and that those directly affected are being put through trials and tests and on the other side there’s the betterment of the people and the surviving family all in Gods plan.
I wish I was better informed as to quote it correctly but I believe I’ve heard a preached say “he giveth and he taketh away”
I’ve sort of come to believe when I hear someone crying out “why lord” at times of great trauma that they aren’t questioning why he’d let something happen, but why it’s happening, asking why they were chosen for a task they don’t feel they’re up to.
Anyways I’ve rambled - enjoy the rest of your day :)
Not trying to shake the OOPs faith but others who read the comment. I wish I was deluded enough to believe in some unknowable, unquantifiable plan. It would be, rather it is, so so easy to justify even the most horrendous of actions by saying “it’s gods plan”
The way I see it, as a Christian but also as a someone who tries to be idealistic, is that everyone has free will. I believe in God - do I believe he wants to kill children? No. Do I believe he is directing these things? Also no. A belief system called calvinism states everything is predetermined through God, which I do not prescribe to. Bad things happen and are unshakeable, but still bad and upsetting.
I also think that believing in a plan unbeknownst to you is still....a thing, without religious faith right? There are actions taking place in your world that you have no knowledge of, and they will later effect you. People you meet, jobs you take on, the way people treat you all effect you in reality.
Not really sure what your angle is here. Believing that theres a reason for everything/theres some greater plan does not inherently lead to justifying bad things.
Ah yes, I’m supposed to not trust my eyes and ears. Classic. For what it’s worth, I really really wish I was religious. Life would be so easy, devoid of ethics and principles. I’ve had more than enough experience with religious folks as I was raised to be religious. They’re all dangers to others, except for MAYBE Buddhists and Sikhs
Being a human is hard and complicated. During the course of one’s life with the various difficulties we face, many try to find some sort of meaning behind everything, be it secular or religious.
Mocking people for that doesn’t help, it just makes you an asshole.
Mmmm you know what, fair enough. But religion has been much* more of a pain in my life than a boon. Feel free to discredit my character or my argument style, but you can’t discredit my own memories. And that’s just my personal stuff. One only has to throw a stone in any direction to see examples of religion being twisted.
What are you on about? This is an example of the game of telephone contained in one persons mind. Just making up a bunch of stuff and throwing it out there
They should read every murder guilty verdict that way.
“Yeah that seems right”, she thinks.
Felony murder is applied to some total BS. Like you loan your keys to your friend and your friend drives your car, unbeknownst to you, and kills someone. It’s totally out of hand in this country. Not saying that’s what happened here. I didn’t watch the clip.
What country?
By that logic, her friend Paris should've also been convicted of felony murder, because Trinity Madison Pogue texted her that she hated the baby and wanted to kill it, and Paris didn't report it to the police. The fact that Paris didn't get charged with anything is a disgrace. She could've prevented this. Trinity sent her threatening texts about killing the baby, and she didn't report them to the cops. So as far as I'm concerned, she is a co-conspirator, and just as guilty of that baby's murder.
A John Oliver episode gets into this farce of a charge
Yes- that’s where I ripped that example from. People should be held accountable, but this is a complete miscarriage of justice in most cases it seems.
The way she stops crying and looks up is eerie
The mask slipped
"Count 1" was jaywalking 🤣
Forgot she’d opened more than one account
She thought she won. Lol priceless
What is malice murder and felony murder? Did I miss something? Last I checked it was murder one or murder two and both are felonies...
Felony murder is when you are intentionally committing another felony and the that leads to the death of a person. Meaning the intent wasn’t to kill but the intent was to commit a felony and the effect is a person died. So like a getaway driver hitting a pedestrian or your robbing someone and you associate shoots them.
How does that differ from manslaughter?
Felony murder you don’t have to be the person who commits the act that directly causes the death (such as the example given where a partner in crime does it).
Guess this explains the top comment thread, lol.
It’s an issue of intent.
Manslaughter there was no intent to kill someone, but the defendant was reckless, negligent or in the heat of passion killed someone and it has a lessor penalty.
Felony murder the perpetrator had the intent to commit a felony and someone was killed. Felony murder has the same penalty as murder (generally speaking).
Not going to lie. It was a bit confusing with the getaway driver example. They had to have known they were committing a felony as the getaway driver.
Pardon, I should have been more clear in my example. So the getaway driver intended to get away fast and accidentally hit and kill a pedestrian. So the getaway driver (and everyone else involved in the robbery) is guilty of murder even though no one intended to kill the pedestrian they hit, because they intended to be part of the robbery which led to the death.
So, say for example 5 guys are robbing a store, right? 4 of them were planning on leaving if the dude behind the register didn't hand over the cash at gunpoint. The 5th dude murders the cashier. The guy who pulled the trigger gets first degree the other 4, who didn't have any intention of killing, or maybe were all unarmed, are all charged with felony murder, and face the same consequences as first degree.
Unfortunately, it's actually significantly easier to get a felony murder charge, because you need significantly less evidence to get a charge, and if J remember correctly, there was one dude who got life in prison because he let his roommate borrow his car, and his roommate broke into someone's house with a few accomplices, murdered the owner, and they all got charged with felony murder, including the guy that lent the car keys, despite the fact that the owner of the car was a 3-4 hour drive away from the murder when it happened.
Let me find a video that explains it better
EDIT: https://youtu.be/Y93ljB7sfco?si=Rp2WF6076SDWG_hh
TL:DR Even the smallest connection to the crime can get felony murder, whereas all other murder charges require way more evidence and procedures. It carries the same penalties as first degree despite that.
That actually makes sense thank you.
Glad I was able to help! Have a wonderful rest of your day!
Malice murder is only in effect in the state of Georgia, it's when someone unlawful kills someone with a "malignant heart," people charged with malice murder get the same treatment as first degree murder.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malice_murder
So it's a reworded version of first degree murder specific to Georgia. That's interesting. So, malice murder = first degree murder and felony murder = manslaughter everywhere outside of Georgia.
No. Manslaughter is manslaughter everywhere (pretty much). Felony murder is felony murder everywhere (pretty much). Manslaughter has recklessness or negligence as the mens rae (state of mind of the defendant), but no intent to kill or in the heat of passion.
Manslaughter is killing without intent and therefore not murder, so it has a much lessor penalty. In felony murder the intent was to commit another felony and that intent is transferred to the new crime: murder, so generally carries the same penalty as first degree murder. Basically, if you wrong a bank and your partner shoots someone you go to jail for most of the rest of your life like you killed then yourself.
Manslaughter would be I came home, found my wife in the arms of another and flew into a fit of rage and killed someone without intending to.
That “oh😒” face after he said guilty
Booom!!!…. Judge like “hold on B@&&@ I ain’t done yet, before you start celebrating… you better know exactly what you celebrating for!”…. 🤣🤣
Happened in my hometown at the university dorms. Absolutely tragic case and she got off easier than she deserved ngl. Judge even said something to the effect of, I hope you can find a semblance of structure in life after your sentance, in the last hours of the case. If it were me no parole no nothing.
Gotcha bitch Dave chapelle voice
Serves her right
lol. Cried when she thought she got off. Went back to stoic when she got the other charges.
She won a beauty pageant? What the hell must 2nd and 3rd place have looked like?
I know right? I was thinking she must have let herself go fast or that the stress of being on trial for murder took a lot out of her (which, boohoo, I know). But she actually looks better here than in her beauty pageant pictures imo.
It's possible but she was trimming the Ugly Tree in her yard and then fell and hit every branch on the way down.
That's the neat part, there was no 2nd place. Old yo mama joke. Yo mama so ugly she got 2nd place in a beauty pageant that no one entered.
Small town pagent.
Hopefully she will enjoy her life sentence.
The way her face turns after the judge starts reading out the guilty verdicts reminds me American Psycho. When Bateman finishes a conversation his face changes the exact same way. It's like the real monster is peaking out from under the curtain
Had a friend from high school who had two kids… both him n his wife locked them in a small closet that can lock with a space heater
What happened to the perps?
40 years
Shes not crying for that poor child...but herself. Disgusting demon.
Why do you think Jesus lets the demons run free in this world?
careful...we walk amongst them just as freely
Ask your pastor
Kenneth Copeland knows everything about demons
Remember that great scene in True Detective season 1 where MM whispers that “prison is hard on child killers… better go off yourself”
curb song
ROFL....the fake happy tears right into the glance up and the judge tells everyone "Shhh shhh" like: "shhh the best part is coming"
Rot in prison...then in hell.
My thoughts exactly!!!! What a psycho
Killed a baby……hopefully she is put in general population.
Coed prisons are bad for women
Good
Empathetic are you
You care about what happens to a child murderer? Fucks wrong with you?
I don't care what happens to her.
You're objectively wrong.
Because justice isnt vengeance. That's why. We are disgusted by what she's done. Enraged even. However, justice is blind and isnt swayed by what we want or feel, but what the law demands.
Unless youre rich.
Death sentance for baby murder
Well, that isnt what justice called for here, now is it? If you and others believe it is unjust, perhaps you'd do good reaching out to your local lawmakers and get the ball rolling.
Yes, you could argue that the law isnt always "fair". As a black man, my heritage and I agree with you wholeheartedly. As an Amercian, I suggest you do your part by making your concerns known in a way that actually does something. Something more than Reddit.
“I don’t do a lot of speaking when I’m passing the sentence,” Judge W. James Sizemore Jr. of the Southwestern Circuit Court of Georgia told the court, according to Court TV. “The bottom line is you're going to receive a sentence of life in prison, which is the appropriate sentence for the conduct that you have been convicted of.”
Good thing prisons are for bad people
This woman was bad for babies
Hahahaha awesome
When she looks up, she looks like Marla Hooch!
It had to be you…
I’m singing to Nelson. Ain’t I baby?
You sure are
What a hitter!
That look up… oh.. oh shit
Who??
I literally says who it is in the description.
But why male models?
Judge is a savage for reading it out the way he did
My thoughts exactly!!
Those fake ass tears. 😂😂😂
Did you see her peaking up once she noticed she was fucked 😭😭😭
She went from “I can’t believe it” to “okay fair enough” real quick
Them were quite the crocodile tears she had 🤣🤣
Bwahahahahahahahahahaaaa
It’s all good, your life’s not over…
SYKE
Well, them tears dissolved quickly.
When she looked up, it was almost like a… smirk 😏.
Yup.
Great verdit!!
Hahahahaa
So performative lol
If you saw the John Oliver show on Felony Murder, you'd know shes about to get absolutely screwed in sentencing.
The whole case was absolutely atrocious. She deserves everything she got.
She got a life sentence, with the possibility of parole after 30 years. Which is unlikely because it's a baby death case. But she is gonna do well in prison. She's gonna enjoy her life sentence. She handled this embarrassing situation well. She will do just fine in the slammer.
Her massive reaction to thay first "not guilty" was awfully big to then basically turn it right the fuck off when she got her actual guilty verdict.
People amaze me in ways I wish I never knew. How could someone do that? Insane.
People like her aren't "normal."
This is proper sociopathic behavior.
Ones as bad as her lack fundamental empathy for others and express most emotions purely theatrically.
Not all sociopaths are dangerous like her. But I've met a couple that were and I wouldn't trust any of them with a glass of water let alone a child.
There’s something really off about her. She’s bonkers. She would’ve ended up in prison somehow. If it wasn’t for this, it would’ve been for something else eventually.
If youre guilty of murder why dont more people just accept it, you took human lives. literal time and now you pay the time.
The only time felony murder doesn't apply is if your last name ends in Sackler and you create an epidemic of addiction (causing tens if not hundreds of thousands of deaths down the line) to line your own pockets.
Because “felony murder” is a legal loophole to sentence people for murder even though they didn’t do the murdering. If your friend borrowed your car and then murdered someone, you could be charged for felony murder for assisting him in the murder just because he used your car.
Felony murder is unintentional death while committing a felony
Only if you knew they were going to be using the car for that
No, you need to prove that.
That's not how the burden of proof or presumption of innocence works but ok.
Only if the jury believes you knew they were going to be using the car for that. And the jury could make that finding, even if it's not really true, based on very flimsy evidence.
Theoretically possible If there isn't valid evidence that's an easy appeal + overturn. Basically no chance of actual jail time.
You have an awful lot of faith in the system, but clearly don't understand it. A jury finding that the defendant intended to help by lending his car would be very hard to get reversed on appeal.
I had a client once who gave $10 to his buddy in jail, so the buddy could use the money to buy cigarettes. The buddy tried to use the $10 to bribe someone and escape, which led my client to be convicted of helping with the escape.
No judge would have let that go to the jury it would be judgement of acquittal granted
This was an actual case I worked on. Your view of what judges will let go to the jury is a lot different than my experience.
Yeah I'm not talking about in this case I'm talking about in some case where the sentenced party did not have any adequate evidence to prove this fact but in the specific referenced case of Ryan Holle he did know about the crime his vehicle was being used for by his own admission.
As for your story, sounds made up. If you couldn't get that overturned you're bad at your job.
I’d recommend watching the John Oliver episode covering this because he has many examples, one being this exact scenario, where a man let his roommate borrow his car, went back asleep, and woke up the next morning with police arresting him for felony murder. He had no clue what was happening or what had been done.
He lent his car for a robbery which resulted in a murder .
He never knew, his friend and roommate simply asked to borrow the car. He had no fucking clue what the intention would be. Absolutely wild I have to sit here and defend this but I guess you’re okay with murder charges against people who don’t commit them.
Go read the Wikipedia page for the case
Arrested or sentenced? These are two, entirely different things. They could arrest a guy and then release him after he was proven not guilty.
Dudes been in jail for years because of it.
Charging and sentencing are two different things. The comment I'm responding to claims they sentence based on that scenario which is simply not true.
The man's name is Ryan Holle. He was convicted on those facts and served 21 years in prison in Florida.
Yeah he gave statements alleging he knew of the robbery which resulted in a murder. He purposefully lent his car for that purpose so is consistent with felony murder
He said he thought the discussion of robbery was a joke. He did not say that he intended to help with the robbery.
Of course, I don't know what was in his head. Neither do you. But the jury can find he intended to help (intent, i.e., purpose, is different than knowledge, btw) on very skinny evidence.
I'm not disputing that it's consistent with felony murder. I am saying that the felony-murder rule is bad and we should get rid of it.
Yeah he changed his story and only said he thought it was a joke later after he realized he was being charged accessory. While being interviewed he claimed he knew his car was being used for a crime but he didn't know about any intent to commit murder.
Having said that I'd agree his sentence was way too hard for his miniscule involvement.
I have no idea the factual details of his case. (When my cases show up in the media, the details are always wrong.) But from what I can see, I am fairly confident that 1) the evidence was legally sufficient to show that he intended to assist the robbery, but 2) I am skeptical that he really did intend to assist the robbery, and 3) sending him to prison for decades was an outrageous injustice.
The felony murder rule is a bad policy and we should get rid of it. I don’t know if the story at the top of the thread is an injustice, or a fair outcome for a wicked murderer, or something else. Even the worst and dumbest criminal laws will sometimes catch evil people who deserve punishment.
He’s in jail. Like bros been there for years.
He deserves to be there based on all the evidence
You’re crazy dude. Absolutely crazy. He didn’t do anything. He lent a friend and roommate a car without any prior knowledge of what he intended to do. Jesus fucking Christ you’re crazy.
Not according to him. You should calm down.
No one thinks they’re the bad guy. They feel they have good reason to do anything they do. It’s what humans do
Its also just rough to understand that you'll never enjoy another moment of life again, or at least not in the way you've known it up to this point. I'd probably shuffle off the plank real quick if faced with a life sentence. Not worth it.
Eh. People seem ok in prison
Except for the baby abusers/killers.
They seem fine too.
You’re thinking of movies, TV programs
Source: I provide medical care in prisons
Yah, I’ve read a couple accounts from people who were either in prison or worked in prisons and they all say something like this:
there’s a social hierarchy in prison, and the pedophile and those who hurt children are at the bottom of it but as long as they don’t cause any problems they don’t get messed with and they certainly not getting beaten everyday.
Movies and TV programs picked it up from reality.
There are laws in many countries to separate child abusers from others inmates to prevent stigma/retaliation.
It’s a movie, a tv progrum
Anyway, it's $4 a pound
Fact: in 100% of all fake-gun-related shootings, the victim is always the one with the fake gun.
The laws protecting them aren't.
It’s true, a lot of people find the best version of themselves in prison
I guess it's just me. But the question I always ask about these things is ,why? We're in this person's head both morally and logically thinks it's a good idea to take from your lover something so precious? It just makes no sense.
She texted an acquaintance about how she hated the kid... so because hatred?
Well some real bitter baby mas and dads out there let's just say that
Gotcha Bitch!!!
No crying in court bro
Watch the women in the back, I believe this was the baby’s grandmother. Watch how steady she remains. I’ve watched this a few times wondering how she remains stoic through this roller coaster. That kind of strength is astonishing. I’m wondering if this is women has a deep sense of faith? The last few years have been difficult for me and I’ve been repeatedly encouraged to have faith that a higher power has a plan and everything will work out in the end. That’s what I think this woman is doing here. Idk if she will ever see this or if I’m way off base and she’s just a reporter or someone detached from the case. But watching her has given me an example of what I’ve been told to do but couldn’t really wrap my head around. So either way I want to thank her for this. As for the defendant, she got what she had coming to her. This was a little (absolutely adorable) baby being raised by a single father. She has no place in society.
Because she's genetically related to the murderer, which means she may have the kind of genes that can go one way or the other - either very very stoic, or very very sociopathic. So she may be a sociopath like the murderer, or she may just be a stoic. These margins are more thin than you think, and trauma does a lot of damage to people through generations.
Fuck "God's plan"
https://youtu.be/dnsk7SF6How?si=2g5Sq3kn4efzVZas
If god has a plan, god planned for that baby to die. That cool with you?
People have free will. God did not call a woman via prayer and say "murder a baby for me".
I'm not the person you're asking. but likely, no. not at all.
I think a huge part of the "God has a plan" view is, it's a big picture sorta thing. it's not for pleasure or comfort of the individual. so, the individual is gonna disagree with things that happen. and that's something the individual has to accept.
I think what this triggers in the mind of people is an expansion of perspective. the simple idea of "this existence is not about me" can be so powerful if it's fully believed. and I think religion does that for alot of people.
I don’t think “God has a plan” or “it’s God’s will” is supposed to point you to look at the bigger picture. I think it’s something people say so they can dismiss that good people sometimes have a bad hand dealt them by life. I think it’s a convenient dismissal of others’ feelings so people don’t have to be empathetic.
I was in a bad situation when I was pregnant with my first child. 25 weeks pregnant and literally about to deliver. I was looking for reassurance and the nurse told my husband “sometimes, it’s God’s will”. That’s comforting for her, but it sure as hell wasn’t for us. I reported her to my doctor a couple months later when I was getting a checkup while my son was in the NICU. That was not empathy or support—that’s giving up and imposing your beliefs on someone at their lowest. (FTR: the kid is good and about to get his driver’s license.)
Which isn’t just wrong but dangerous. People believing they’re parts of something bigger or a grand plan or divine intervention or the argument of determinism is part of the reason the world is as fucked as it is today. The idea that predestination is real TRANSFERS THE BURDENS OF CHOICE to an ethereal non existent plate, I.e. god. How many times have you heard of people doing dumb, dangerous, or otherwise deplorable things and justifying it by saying “it was gods will” or “god told me to do it”?
The world is a bunch of particles colliding at random angles and intervals. Coincidence is nothing more than coincidence. Your choices have consequences, and your choice is your choice.
you have no clue whether or not it's correct
plenty of things can potentially cause people to avoid choice or responsibility. the scientific concept of determinism does both of these things to people on a regular basis. that doesn't mean determinism is incorrect or inherently bad.
it's just a result of how many people the concept reaches, and the variation in how humans can interpret or contextualize things.
Whether what is correct? That god has a plan? I’m not arguing whether god is real or not. I’m saying people use that as a justification to commit horrible actions.
Determinism is not scientific lol. It’s a pseudo philosophical, more often religiously fueled ideology.
yes and I'm saying people can use any number of things to justify horrible actions. that's the effect of having a mind that can make a decision first, and then find reasoning for it afterward.
someone can find a study showing how selfish humans are inherently, and use that as a reason to commit mass murder. I think it would be silly to look at that situation, and be upset at the study. rather than being upset at the person.
Okay, but it would be a problem study if A LOT, and maybe even a MAJORITY of mass murderers use the study as justification, no?
it depends on what you mean by "problem study". is there an argument to be made it should be taken away from public viewing? yea maybe, I'm fine with conceding that.
I think if we tried to do that with religion, you know how it would work out. it would simply stay. too many people already have their heels dug in, it might just make them more passionate about it. it could cause violence in areas where religious violence isn't common.
We don’t need to remove it from the public, it’s doing that to itself already. Each generation is less and less religious and hopefully eventually it will be relegated to the dark corners of the world.
Take a look at that woman who was looking to churches for baby formula. Stuff like that is also gods will. Look at the Muslims (I was raised Muslim) committing honor killings all over the globe. That’s gods plan too. Look at what’s happening at the West Bank. Totally gods will, on both sides.
The more and more organized religion keeps trying to justify atrocities and atrocious behavior, the more people will pull away because they recognize that it’s nothing more than a grift. All I have to do is call out their atrocious behavior in threads like this to plant the seed that grows .
I’m gonna catch shit for replying here it feels like - but yeah man that’s how it works. If one believes that God has plans then that means he has plans for everything. The bad and the good are included, I’m no Christian, but I’m able to understand their faith and if your comment was meant to shake belief then it’s not gonna work because those who truly believe would absolutely agree that yes it’s terrible the baby is dead, but it’s also something beyond our ability to understand and that those directly affected are being put through trials and tests and on the other side there’s the betterment of the people and the surviving family all in Gods plan.
I wish I was better informed as to quote it correctly but I believe I’ve heard a preached say “he giveth and he taketh away”
I’ve sort of come to believe when I hear someone crying out “why lord” at times of great trauma that they aren’t questioning why he’d let something happen, but why it’s happening, asking why they were chosen for a task they don’t feel they’re up to.
Anyways I’ve rambled - enjoy the rest of your day :)
Not trying to shake the OOPs faith but others who read the comment. I wish I was deluded enough to believe in some unknowable, unquantifiable plan. It would be, rather it is, so so easy to justify even the most horrendous of actions by saying “it’s gods plan”
The way I see it, as a Christian but also as a someone who tries to be idealistic, is that everyone has free will. I believe in God - do I believe he wants to kill children? No. Do I believe he is directing these things? Also no. A belief system called calvinism states everything is predetermined through God, which I do not prescribe to. Bad things happen and are unshakeable, but still bad and upsetting.
I also think that believing in a plan unbeknownst to you is still....a thing, without religious faith right? There are actions taking place in your world that you have no knowledge of, and they will later effect you. People you meet, jobs you take on, the way people treat you all effect you in reality.
Not really sure what your angle is here. Believing that theres a reason for everything/theres some greater plan does not inherently lead to justifying bad things.
Sure, it doesn’t inherently cause bad things just as a jug of milk isn’t inherently milk. It’s just 98% milk.
Your caracature of people who believe in a greater plan is not reality.
Ah yes, I’m supposed to not trust my eyes and ears. Classic. For what it’s worth, I really really wish I was religious. Life would be so easy, devoid of ethics and principles. I’ve had more than enough experience with religious folks as I was raised to be religious. They’re all dangers to others, except for MAYBE Buddhists and Sikhs
Being a human is hard and complicated. During the course of one’s life with the various difficulties we face, many try to find some sort of meaning behind everything, be it secular or religious.
Mocking people for that doesn’t help, it just makes you an asshole.
https://youtu.be/dnsk7SF6How?si=2g5Sq3kn4efzVZas
2015 called. They want their m'lady reddit athiest back.
Seriously man you use completely false caracatures of others while being a talking caracature yourself.
Mmmm you know what, fair enough. But religion has been much* more of a pain in my life than a boon. Feel free to discredit my character or my argument style, but you can’t discredit my own memories. And that’s just my personal stuff. One only has to throw a stone in any direction to see examples of religion being twisted.
What are you on about? This is an example of the game of telephone contained in one persons mind. Just making up a bunch of stuff and throwing it out there
yea it's called thinking and pondering
Coulda been an email
Damn you.. LOL.. take my upvote good sir