I love playing cata recently because I don't think I've ever found a difficulty in a game where the players and team actually know what they're DOING! Like I actually feel supported on cata. I get giddy when I get to jump on and play a cata game. Sure, there are some occasions where team should've stuck together or made a mistake, but it's by far very rare. I only play on Legend to test new builds that I'm unfamiliar with or to quickly grind for more dust for upgrades. And the difference in how the team plays is huge.
Because of this, there are specific traits in players I notice that makes me gravitate towards cata way more. But I like to improve and also make sure I'm a good player, and carry my weight on the team as well.
What are good and bad traits that you've observed on Legend, or Cata if you play? I wanna hear what you've encountered, but I'll name some of the obvious ones:
Good
- Looking behind frequently to check on rest of team
- Wait for whole team to drop past a cliff before going ahead
- healing others while you're wounded will clear your wound
- giving pot of concentration to a class that really benefits from it (ex Bounty Hunter
- ACTUALLY paying attention and giving hp pot to someone who is wounded
- aggro monster for team (if you know how to dodge) or help player /team kill monster after horde
- tagging items/specials/elites (I love when players do this)
Bad
- host rage quitting when dead
- running ahead without checking on team behind you (obv)
- using pots / medkits without any regard for other team members
- not helping team member with a aggroed patrol
- not aware of friendly fire with their class (looking at you outcast engineers...)
- starting map event or chest of Trials when team isn't ready / mid-horde (I see this on cata a lot LOL)
- if a player is using movetech to speed ahead of team (not always bad, helps to get out of certain situations)
What are some traits you have seen that make you realize if a player will be a good / bad teammate?
Wait what? I didn't know that was a thing. Thanks
Especially helpful with zealot to get out of wound but keep all stacks
And I guess it's also good if you have Regen and a medkit since you can't give those to teammates but you can heal them and get out of wound
it also work with necklace trait "hand of shallya". that way you can heal/remove wounds from all 4 members
Yes this, my cousin plays this Necklace build on Wayfarer Kerillian with Amaranthe to be asutosufficient and the team can make use of more medpacks/potions.
Mowing down a horde with ranged attacks when it’s all trash mobs and the team needs temp HP is a pretty bad one. Feels like it happens a lot on legend. I’ve just started playing Cata, and my low sample size has me getting a green circle for ranged kills on classes that are melee, meaning almost nobody is killing anything with ranged attacks unless it’s elites and bosses.
Oh... I just got engineer to lvl 30 and been spamming minigun, i guess its not a good idea
It absolutely depends on how you’re doing it. If you’re killing a trash horde (no elites, no specials) that another player or 2 is already capable of killing, and aren’t topped off on temp hp, they’re probably not going to like that.
On the other hand, if you’re protecting their flank from a small horde in the distance, or cleaning up a more dangerous horde so it’s more manageable, that’s good!
ranged attack spam is honestly fine. More dps = less enemies which means you dont need as much thp (also theres more than enough enemies on cata to go around even with someone killing them quickly with ranged). Only one that is super annoying is flamestorm because of the visual blocking and how op it is.
Just be careful to not kill ambient elites if someones running kill thp, dont ff obviously, and make sure not to run out of minigun ammo at a bad time by shooting stuff that doesn't matter.
People overuse their ranged weapons on ambient elites and it drives me nuts.
There will be a lone stormvermin, I'm walking up to it to melee - really no risk involved here - and get domed by some friendly fire. What was the purpose to use the ranged attack?! It uses your ammo and I take more damage from the FF then I was at risk of from the stormvermin. It's easy to block/dodge out of the way of a lone one.
I can kinda understand for a waystalker using their profession skill to get ammo off one, but it's especially annoying for an infinite ammo class to friendly fire you chasing that solo elite kill.
im guilty of it if I play bounty hunter or another 1 shot class like that (bluntsman on unarmored elites, bw with bolt, handgun rv etc...) Its pretty fun to snipe them ngl so I slip up often, but I know its annoying to some.
I'll blow away an elite if it's far away and in our way. I don't trust my teammates to not eat overheads. But once we're stuck in, I'll let them handle it. I would never risk FF to clear trash, even elite trash.
I have friends who do this constantly and it's aggravating, especially since it makes running Execute/THP on Kill much less powerful. Getting to stay topped off on temp HP or build it up after a horde or mistake is really helpful with the low risk of ambient elites.
From my experience with them and randoms it really seems to come from a lack of trust(People don't trust others to melee well and also won't give them practice they need if they suck), green circle chasing and since with many ranged classes there's no ammo concerns so it's "free" to shoot ambient elites. It's genuinely annoying and I feel like a lot of people rely on ranged combat to avoid going into melee, which might not be wrong, but is definitely not how I prefer playing since I want every excuse to go crack some rat skulls on the frontlines.
Just run carve/second wind on everything ftw.
I'm very aware that this is an option, but it's often worse on some weapons I prefer running than Execute so it's not a great solution, especially in the grand scheme of things where people could just learn to be less trigger happy.
IMO execute is a bad option with randoms because:
There's only like 4-5 weapons across all the characters that don't work well with carve/second wind, most of those being pretty bad options anyways.
A lot of the ranged careers will get ammo back with kills or even set up things like huntsman taking the easy headshot to set up crit bonus (and get ammo back).
They can do whatever they want so long as they don't friendly fire. So if they want to farm ammo off ambients I really only care if I'm getting hit by FF - which tends to happen a lot. If they're mindful of allies and will not shoot if there's a chance at FF then power to them.
I agree ff should be avoided as good as possible but sometimes accidents happen.
My point was the sv you were walking up to gives stuff all thp but the ranged might need an easy kill for easy ammo.
They'd give a trivial amount of ammo. If the build can generate ammo off of ambients they shouldn't have ammo problems, and shouldn't risk friendly fire over ammo.
FF does happen, but it should be happening when ranged attacks are actually delivering value (e.g. specials/elites during a horde/boss).
Ah this is a good one. I'm guilty of doing this but also a bit ignorant on which classes can generate THP faster too. Like I know SOTT, merc, BW can be fine but when I play cata and as the games get very chaotic i don't tend to focus on who needs THP. I def should tho
Also this greatly increases the chance of friendly fire. No Sienna, I did not to take 10 hp damage from you to help with these three slave rats. Aim at elites/specials and only trash if you have a totally clear LOS and ammo to burn.
Great point. Cata deed twitch provides enough THP, even with the most stubborn ranged greedy goblins! 😄
This gets brought up a lot when it comes to ranged weapons. But its not relevant at all how i kill the horde. Either i leave them up because i think my teammates will heal from the horde, or i kill them myself.
So the tip should be: "dont fight trash if you are at high hp and the team is not".
Which in my expierience is a 50/50, half the time it works out perfectly and the other times the allready low teammates die because i let the back-half of the wave run through. Because trash waves are not free hp in this game, they pose a real threat as well.
In defense of Legend players, the Ui doesn't actually show who has a wound so it's not necessarily always obvious if someone has one. People usually go down in chaotic moments and they're rezzed by handmaiden, warrior priest bubble, or heal via an irregular source their health won't really look like they went down.
That is true, this has to do more with player awareness and watching who actually goes down, even harder to tell if you just joined a game and have no idea what's going on lol. I enabled the mod (or setting? I forgot) that allows you to see if someone is wounded, so I do forget that it's not like that by default.
If it’s a setting I’d love to know. It’s frustrated me since the very start. I keep tabs on my teammates and will give away healing items to them even if they have more hp than me, if I know I can easily generate enough temp hp to stay in the fight.
UI Tweaks does it, I'm not sure there's a vanilla way.
There's been a sanctioned mod that does this for years.
There are a lot of new players from free week that almost certainly don't know about it.
this mode doesnt work any more, or im too stooopid to make it work again, but i liked that one a lot
I measure a good and bad team player by a few things.
Who is generous enough to wait and give people a chance to grab an item?
Who prioritizes reviving team members?
Both of those show selflessness which is what makes a good team player. I wouldn’t expect them to have that much awareness over the exact circumstances of other teammates. That’s something that comes more with experience which is a little different.
When you say prioritize reviving team members, do you mean when they've just gone down and they should leave it to the handmaiden to get them up? Or they're dead and need to be revived? In the former scenario I think any teammate should prioritize getting someone back up but I wasn't sure if that's what you meant.
Generally you want them up as fast as possible, in a situation that won't get them immediately downed again or get the rescuer downed. So first is to push or kill away attacking enemies. Ideally someone else can get them up while you're doing this. So first priority is security, then revive. If someone is reviving, provide security.
I would say whoever is closest should get the guy up in any scenario. Whether it’s being downed or rescued. Doesn’t matter if it’s a handmaiden. That little extra health from her career generally isn’t worth it on higher difficulties.
Of course just because someone else makes it there and stars reviving first doesn’t mean the others can’t help by covering that person from a horde.
Things happen, people get isolated and downed. That happens often enough that I won’t fault someone for getting isolated and picked off. Stuff happens in this game.
But if someone goes down, making sure everyone on the team is up and fighting is the priority. A good team player would want to work to ensure the total up time of all the players is up for as long as possible.
Yeah that makes sense. I mentioned handmaiden cus her class has faster revive speed than all other classes and I know some ppl specialize their build for that, so I feel like I'm getting in the way of a revive if a handmaiden could beat me to it. But of course that's if they're available and not getting horde smacked.
Yeah, if a teammate is down, the rest of the group needs to prioritize them, whether by reviving or by fighting off the mobs around their body.
Of course, if someone runs off alone, it is permissible to just let 'em die.
Before the game started - looking at what role the team would benefit from most. If you joined a lobby with a Shade, Witch hunter and Outcast Engi — consider taking a frontliner/tank like Footknight or Unchained
Yeah agreed, I really appreciate when players do this. If you're god tier and used to carrying teams, then sure any class you play works, but on Cata I do see people actually switch to a role the team needs and it's awesome. Very thoughtful.
I like that in a teammate, but unfortunately for Cata, there’s not much I can play yet at that level. So I have to hope others have that ability. But I’ve succeeded in back to back cata runs with a warrior priest, grail knight, me as iron breaker (with trollhammer), and a battle mage, but it was just because they were all good at managing the specials.
Good teammates can balance aggression with awareness. You'll know because they're able to pick out and eliminate specials even in the middle of a wave, and can break off intelligently to handle waves from different directions. Bad players tend to tunnel vision, only attacking what's in front of them, even if that front doesn't need help.
For me, Just one rule for all of it.
Dont be a dick. IDC if you down me idc if you are bad, just dont be an asswhole to your team.
Thanks for coming to my ted talk.
Good players don't panic when something goes wrong.
Understanding their role. If you have a big clusterfuck where you have a horde, a bunch of elites and a monster (or several in case of twitch/CW) and you're say a Shade or a Bounty Hunter or Grail Knight and the rest of the party has poop monster damage, then you should prioritize the monster, if you're at all able to.
Similarly if you have monster aggro sometimes its more valuable to just kite the monster around and give your team space/time to clear smaller threats before you tackle the monster as a team.
Same with people also not just over-committing to chasing green circles. You don't need 4 people all competing for kills against a trickle of clan/slave rats funneling through a doorway. It's much preferable that 1-2 people hang back and scan for specials or other threats, even if they "not doing anything but standing around" for a little bit.
Completely blowing up hordes / low threat density mobs with ranged spam, when one of your party members could probably use the temp health from being allowed to kill/hit those in melee.
People who don't move away from Chests of trials when they're activated and then immediately get surrounded and gang-banged by 3 goat banners or pinned by 4 ratlings or yeeted off a ledge by 3 warpfire throwers or etc.
Using a medkit on themselves in favor of carrying a healing draught... So now they're not able to help a person carrying a tome later when that ends up being needed.
Not just blindly grabbing ammo pouches if someone else clearly needs it more.
That's difficulty dependent, on Legend medpacks > draughts, on Cata draughts > medpacks.
Obviously that point only applies in game modes where people pick up books, which basically no one does on Cata.
Good trait: communication! It doesn't have to be much. Just a simple "want 2nd grim?" or "ready?" or "heals here" is really, really appreciated. I also love a chatty, cheerful group where people laugh off deaths or wipes. I play for fun and it's more fun when I'm among like-minded people.
Bad traits: Hogging all the ammo. If you get an ammo drop, let someone else get the next one. Don't just eat it because you found it first!
Also, a little friendly fire is expected, but if I can't melee anything without getting my ass toasted or javelined, CUT IT OUT. Learn to read player body language to figure out what they're going to do. Hint: most classes are primarily melee, and they need to walk up to stuff to hit them. Let them!!
Love a squad who can crack up at random wipes, even if it was at the final boss and it had 5% hp left. I had a game where we all wiped right outside the bubble at the end, one after the other, it was hilarious. We just needed one person in the danged bubble. When is that going to happen again?? It’s a game, it’s for entertainment. The good and the bad can all be entertaining.
Some of the best teams I’ve had, we wiped the first 2 missions early, then went on to stomp every single one after. Nobody rage quit, they were all for it and laughing it off. Shit happens, even to good players. Those good players continue to get better if they’re met by unexpected circumstances that they can learn from.
Legend used to be like this. Now it's full of dumbass noobs.
I play at a lower skill level: Champ to Legend. For me, good teammates are simply those who look out for each other. The intricacies of how that plays out may shift a little, but team-based behaviours, including not purposely losing sight of your team, are important.
Which strikes me as a little ironic, because earlier today I played three Champ games in a row with a team that seemed to really grasp all of that. So the host set the 4th to Legend. First horde was a team wipe because, now that the difficulty was higher, half the team seemed to think the fundamentals no longer mattered and scattered across the map. XD
A lot is already said, but the thing that infuriates me the most, is when managing two frontlines ppl just mindlessly hacks away and not making sure they get every kill. The amount of times getting stabbed in the back by a rat that got smacked out of line of sight just annoys me.
And stop hunting green circles- think we are all guilty of it - getting most ranged kills on slayer(that one I am guilty of) is cool and all, but it jeopardises the run more often than not
My toxic trait is calling out patrols, and when the qp people inevitably pull it I leave them to die so I can solo it and look all-so-cool.
Isn't all of this basically standard at Legend difficulty?
Or have the plebs finally absorbed enough minmax gear strats from the tryhards that it isn't required anymore?
Because I'd expect all of this from most Legend groups, with Cata basically being this + "don't get hit and move fast"
About the only thing I notice between Legend and Cata is that people in Cata will actively drop/not pickup Grims if the run is looking dodgy, in Legend everyone always grabs every Grim even if there's no healing and someone is at deaths door/is obviously playing badly.
Oh, I guess people generally understand parry mechanics in Legend, but not always, I assume most people on Cata are using the parry indicator mod.
Never was, not even remotely close. And since the recent free giveaway Legend got much worse player quality-wise.
Even on Cata many people won't meet these criteria. Way better than Legend but randoms will random.
Parry? The trait is seldom used and people using the mod will be a percentage of a percentage.
You got the most important ones. What I would add:
1. Team composition. Now this isn't a MMO and we don't need a tank/healer/DPS setup, but what I care about is our special sniping capability. Games go much smoother if you have either a decent amount of it or none at all.
Decent: a minimum of at least 2 people with ranged weapons that snipe well + 1 that is poor at sniping but can still get disablers off people at range. Like Handgun FK + BoP WHC + Coru Pyro + Slayer, more is better but that is plenty enough. Just 2x ranged careers + 2x pure melee can work too but that third guy who can get disablers off people is a big help when a ranged guy gets caught.
None: that's right, pure melee comps can be great because then everyone realizes no one will deal with specials for them and they need to do it themselves. A melee deathball that stays mobile, knows when to pull back and when to push through can be incredibly effective and fun. Pushing in specials' shit despite not having any ranged ability yourself is extremely satisfying.
2. I want to stress proper heal item usage. One can fill their HP bar with:
THP easily sourced from infinitely spawning enemies
GHP from finite healing items that need to be found first
It seriously grinds my gears to see people chug non-surplus heals left and right just because they are low on HP. Now if, IF there's an incoming Monster/Patrol/stacked ambients with horde/tough Twitch vote, then it's fine. If you got downed you'll probably die with no possibility of rescue so chug ahead. But in all other situations just keep fighting, in 9 times out of 10 you'll just farm THP to full and if you do get downed we'll easily rez you.
3. Oh, and let Zealots pick up medpacks. If you already have one then trade it with a heal pot on the ground so that he can grab the pack.
Too many times I've seen a Wounded Zealot walk up to a heal pot, ping it and tell a guy with a medpack to grab the pot only for him to come, heal himself with the pack and walk away with the pot. Sometimes "Pick up the healing draught" means "pick up the healing draught", not "heal your ass and keep trying to kill your teammates".
I only just learned today about using med packs on others to heal your own wounds. Now I know why Zealots were always stealing my med packs when I would swap it for a pot to give the pot to someone else. (I like to keep the med packs as I usually play tanks, so I can rez someone and remove their wound, sometimes at the same time)
What is difference between potion and medpack when it comes to zealots
Person A healing person B with a medpack fills HP of person B and clears the Wound of person B and clears the Wound of person A.
Useful tech for everybody but especially crucial for Zealots, to clear their Wound without healing themselves. Not using this and just healing yourself and having to drop your health again to regain your passive stacks is very dangerous and can easily result in losing Heart of Iron or getting downed. And of course it is a waste of the healed health.
Good teammate:
Bad teammate:
Good: - Knows efficient map pathing - Can survive trashmobs - Understands map pacing
Bad: - Is too fixated on bad habits picked up on lower difficulties - Blocks vision in melee (Conflag Siennas or Battlewizards are great with this) - is SoTT and uses the Wall in a melee brawl (this is so absolutely infuriating) DO NOT cast your wall into a melee fight. SoTT is a great class and can provide a shitton of value to the team, but casting walls in melee and youre getting the boot. - is SoTT and lifts every single lone elite/special there is to find, especially those already engaged in melee. You could call that nitpicky but I play alot of dwarf, so I absolutely hate having to look up all the time to kill elites. I dont mind lifting if there is danger but a lone elite, no need to lift. Best thing is when you just want to kill something thats on a ledge and suddenly it flies out of melee reach. Yes, thank you SoTT. You failed to understand that ability. - GK pooping str pots all over the map and they remain unused the whole map. I see alot of GK running the Str Pot Boon. Yes, its great, but if you aint using the pots yourself, pass them around for people to use. Why run it, if youre going to finish the run with none of them used by the end? Just pick an other talent if you refuse to make use of it. - Merc/WP picking revive talents and then holding in their ability for the majority of the run.
Damn more bad than good huh? But these are good points, especially 2, 3 and 6. I get nervous when a SOTT joins and I dunno if they're using thorns or wall ability.
You already pointed out alot of the good ones and I listed very class specific ones, which go into detail. There isnt much needed to make a good teammate, but specific things that make out a bad teammate. I also dont agree with a couple of bad points. For example: - Host ragequitting. I know it sucks, however I sometimes can understand ragequits. I dont mind a singular host rq, but if I meet a person doing it regularly, I avoid their party. - Starting Map Event mid horde: I do this all the time. Most map events have a period of buildup, so you can clean up the horde before the actual event starts. Or use the event to clean up the horde (For example Sofias introduction in Tower of Treachery. Nothing happens here, so I like to push into the trigger and then you can fight the horde during the talk phase)
I used to play SOTT a lot as a worse player, as I felt like it still allowed me to contribute even though I was less skilled at the game. There’s lots of great situations to use the wall in melee to manage the horde better, or mess with a boss, but I can count on one hand the amount of SOTT players I’ve encountered that even know they can rotate their wall 90 degrees….
Also, now that I rarely play SOTT, I realize how freaking annoying her lifts can be. Lift a special, sure, lift a bunch of a patrol great! But super random lifts of an elite I was about to decapitate are really frustrating, especially as I mostly play dwarf like you. I’ve gotten to the point now where if they lift something, I don’t touch it and keep moving to the next target. If they thought it was such a high priority, they can kill it themselves, they can have their kill. There’s no fun to be had in hacking away at a helpless enemy hanging in their air.
The Issue with SoTT is she is highly dependant on the skill of the player. Just yesterday I was running the weekly event for serveral runs with a SoTT and she was awesome. Great value, great contribution. However even on Cata this is not the norm. Alot of people do not know how to play the class correctly. And with SoTT it becomes an issue as she can outright be hurtful to the team.
I feel the SotT ones so hard. Walls are miserable to fight around because they stop your swings and their hitbox is enormous, it's extremely dangerous to fight anything near them. Not to mention how well they protect specials from being sniped.
Lifts are a great CC tool but overuse turns the game into Pinatatide and I'm not here to play that. If a SotT spams them too much I just start walking past the elites they lift, if you want so badly to beat up some floating balloons then be my guest but do that yourself, I'm gonna go fight something that fights back.
And of course every liftspammer suddenly clams up when a patrol comes rolling and forgets they have the staff. One case where lifting everything would be useful and they'll do anything but that.
Sounds rough but I had many bad experiences with player SotTs, with staff it's a coinflip but seeing a wall ult I'm certain I'm gonna have a bad time.
I want to add to list of bad:
People who spend foreverrrr in the lobby. Especially as the host. If the whole team is ready and we already voted on a mission, let’s please start unless you can communicate to us why we’re all waiting. If you need to craft something quick, or reroll a trait, swap some talents around that’s fine. But let’s be respectful of the other players.
If I go grab a practice dummy and bring it to the portal. That’s a cue that things are taking too long, and I feel like I’m quite a patient player compared to most. I will make my own fun, but time is finite.
Good
I’m like 3 years rusty, but started playing again recently and noticed that a lot of people in legend hold their ground during a horde. This would slow a cata run down way too much.
Depends on whether there's a patrol/monster trigger coming up. If not then yeah keep pushing, but if there's one close by then it's better to hold and not progress until the horde's gone.
Yes, you would not push during a horde at the expense of all the other “good” advice in the thread.
Shooting anything you see is a big one for me. I hate when i play GK or Shade and other meele focused careers and get to kill nothing but maybe the horde because my team shoots all the ambiance an elites, it just gets boring. Also do not shoot at something your mate (whom you are likely going to hit aswell) is trying to meele, unless he needs help. Had a BH yesterday shoot me because he wanted to kill a singular chaos barbarian (not the elites just the tougher chaff) which i stood in front of and like .5 meters away from. Sometimes i think reverse ff should trigger after some time, because i had games where i took more dmg from ff than the enemy
Swift Slaying :3
Good teammates just play the game.