It’s about time a province took this approach. While Eby is busy hand-wringing and lecturing others about how racist they are, Ford is taking a strong stance that is pro-Canada and pro-opportunity.
The treaty text is pretty clear over who should make the land decisions:
...the said Indians do hereby cede, release, surrender and yield up to the government of the Dominion of Canada, for His Majesty the King and His successors for ever, all their rights titles and privileges whatsoever, to the lands...
It is unceded territory meaning the natives still own it. King George, to stave off the Americans from trying to take Canada, declared that the land of Canada was owned by the natives. To get land for Canada he declared that the land would become Canada only by treaties. BC never completed the transaction ie they took the land and diddnt pay for it. so according to the constitution all of bc is still owned by the natives. We should have paid when we were getting it for peanuts.
Well those people who were to sign are gone, on both sides. Canada has been a country since 1867.
Collecting sporadic income based on ancestry doesn't do anyone any good. We've seen that with the continuous payouts for anything and everything, it just causes a big spike in truck and SUV sales along with exacerbating some major cultural/society problems.
Canada’s existence is based on buying the land from the natives of Canada. That was what formed Canada. Until the government honours its contract the land has not been transferred into Canadas hands. We, legally, do not own the land in BC. That said the government is not going to give it to the natives. What is likely to happen is we, the non natives will shove an agreement down their throats pay them some money and be done with it.
Oh wow you're right! So dougie should drop the law suit, because clearly they've ceded their rights and priveledges to the federal government. Thanks for making that clear.
It’s ridiculous that this argument is even raised. And any time they get land they just build casinos or hire developers to do the work. They are not becoming independent.
Thankfully the courts in BC used their brains and education, and had some inkling of foresight that didn't make themselves look stupid by saying something like this as their prime argument, and therefore, idiocy like this didn't exist in BC for quite some time, circa 30 ish years. The good news for you, is when I was in my lower years in high school, this was the arguments that the western kids tried to tell us how we should have to hunt. So you're not the first to say this, and this is a entry level thing to say from high school (13-14 year old teenager).
How's the price of meat in the stores going for you?
The problem is with greedy bands like Cowichan and Kamloops who are going to mess up your comfortable lifestyle of free handouts and a tax free existence. The truth is, you were slaving other tribes and taking land before it was done to you. You weren't the first people here as archeological evidence shows people before you. Time to join the current Canadians
That's the problem, they're not greedy, they are getting something and these bands aren't desolate beggers anymore and that bothers many. They have something and many have a problem with that. Your perspective is everyone should have what you have.
The point is that it's hypocritical that it's called traditional but then done non-traditionally with modern (colonizer) technology. I have absolutely no problem with a traditional whale hunt using canoes and harpoons.
Exactly. If they want to argue the land back idea, then they should get land with nothing on it and they should find the money and investment themselves to develop it or exploit the resources.
You know we would take that deal in a second. Give us our old growth forests back, our wildlife, and salmon and we will be rich beyond our dreams. We would find partners in minutes. Imagine when you get more than $50+/ cubic meter of wood? Our all people would be working and you know what? You would still cry foul! That's the best part. How it wasn't fair. Why would we get so much?
Most of us do, tons of ppl in my band have university or college, tons of professionals, doctors lawyers, carpenters, etc. I guess i could ask you the same, why doesn't every western person work? See tons on the streets as well.
Not all the work ffs. But you need capital build a mill. If you're hypothetically making us start with nothing lol, you need capital. Like you don't do a single thing in your life by yourself. You don't make a toothbrush, toothpaste. We would still take the deal any and every day. That's why your not leading negotiator, giving away the province for nothing but that caveat? Easy peasy
Show me what indigenous bands do in-house. All the so called “settlers” had to build from nothing too. You want to build from the work of the settlers.
We weren't excluded from that process of changing the land. Again, we can create that capacity. But as I said above, nobody can do anything without the past, and it's a stupid take trying to find your "gotcha" moment here. I really don't know what you're trying to achieve when you yourself produce nothing. We all rely on someone and something these days - even the Amish have to change their tune a bit to adapt to the modern world. The other side of your coin would be simply we wouldn't have to listen to any of your rules. Why would we? The only rules you try to make up are ones that hinder us. That's your point? That's your gotcha?
When most of your cultural and actual traditions get taken away, this is the best they're most likely able to do.
Not sure if you actually hunt, or hang out in a canoe, but I can't even begin to fathom how insanely dangerous that would be without all the knowledge and skills of back in the day. Canoes are crazy shaky. Also requiring immense strength to spear a multi ton animal. I doubt even the best hunters in the world today would come out of this unscathed or treacherous near-misses for their safety, if they didn't starve in the boats looking for the whales first.
You for sure would be ok with them dying for a meal, and that's a great thing for you to advocate for - if you wear a white pointy toque. Nobody wants to see them die or nearly dying trying to revive their culture my guy.... really. Unless you have an affection for whales, let them be.
I just think if you want to claim a right to do something because it's your tradition, you should have to do it traditionally. If you want to use modern methods, follow the rules that the rest of us have to.
Even that statement is erroneous. Only within your traditional territory is this correct. And then within our culture, we couldn't just go grab 1000 crabs because that's all we want to eat for the year. Need to grab a sustainable amount from each of the areas. Same thing with moose. You don't get to kill 5 moose because you're allowed to. At that point, you would need to be a community hunter and disperse the meat is some organized fashion (used elders and poor ppl first kinda thing). Everyone thinks it's a free for all. Usually at 2 moose killed, people are knocking at your door inquiring what's going on.
Well then it would also be hypocritical of you to be eating foods developed by native Americans. Better stop eating tomatoes, potatoes, beans, corn, etc.. society is like a stew, made from the contributions of many races, not just white people. A black man invented blood transfusions. Does that mean white people can't get them? First nations invented tons of things used today by everyone so why do they have to be frozen in time just to serve your narrative?
I'm not the one claiming special rights because of "tradition". I accept that I live in a modern world and avail myself of it's conveniences. I live within the rules of the society into which I was born. I'm not asking for special privileges.
These aren't special rights lol. Do you know what your tax dollars go towards? And you support that? Do you understand the role of government in a free modern society? These "special privileges" you think natives are asking for, what are they?
They too can pick and choose how they practice their traditions. They never gave up those rights and require no permission from any government besides their own to assert them. They too acknowledge they live in a modern world, just because it doesn't meet your approval doesn't mean a thing.
No it's not the same as their way of life at the time of the treaties. They can change their way of life if they choose, and they have. If they want internet and houses and cars fine, but it's not a treaty right
What you're talking about is the "frozen rights" doctrine that says indigenous people must remain static and unchanging, unable to evolve. Whereas the settlers aren't stuck in the 1500's or 1600's. They are able to make laws around things that didn't exist back then like television and radio. It's quite a racist belief. As my grandfather used to say, "what's so special about meeting a white man that at the moment of meeting all your rights are frozen in time?". Unfortunately it's a belief shared by many including those in government.
They absolutely do not, which I already said if you bothered to read my comment instead of just reacting. They can absolutely choose to change. But those changes don't have the muscle of treaty rights behind them.
Native people aren't the only people that have been lied to and used by the Canadian government/British Empire.
Look it up! 🙌 The Brits use to force anyone they could to come to Canada to work the land. People talk about the 60s scoop, about Native children been taken from their parents sent to go work farms, sent to abusive religious schools, but I've watched my grandmother cry about the same thing happening to my Great Grandfather. Crying that we don't know our family name.
The Catholic oppression Native people experienced isn't limited to native peoples..
There are mass graves of other cultures in Canada, we just don't care.
The "Barnardo Act": In 1891, the British Parliament passed legislation that gave organizations like Dr. Barnardo’s the legal right to emigrate children without parental consent if the parents were deemed to have "abandoned" them to a home.
Some organizations actively removed children from families they considered "immoral" or "unfit" due to extreme poverty. Dr. Barnardo even published a pamphlet titled Kidnapped! to defend his practice of taking children from the streets or poor homes and shipping them overseas before parents could intervene.
Between 1869 and 1948, over 100,000 children were sent from the United Kingdom to Canada. These children were often orphans or from destitute families, and they were brought over by charitable organizations (like Dr. Barnardo’s) to serve as cheap labor for Canadian farms and households.
Indentured Labor: Once they arrived in Canada, they were not "adopted" in the modern sense. They were indentured laborers. They were legally bound to work on a farm (for boys) or as domestic help (for girls) until they reached adulthood (usually 18 for girls and 21 for boys).
Systemic Isolation: Upon arrival, siblings were frequently separated and sent to different provinces to prevent them from "distracting" each other from their work. This further isolated the children and ensured they remained dependent on their employers.
Today, it is estimated that over 4 million Canadians (about 1 in 10) are descendants of these children.
These were orphaned and impoverished children being sent to Canada, a place that regularly has -35c winters. These people are still walking around today.
No. The idea is that it was Europeans who brought all this technology and innovation that is being used today. You can’t have it both ways - all your land back plus all the advances that happened because of people who came here.
They are gaming the system. A system a littany of milquetoast governments allowed to persist because of virtue signalling and cowardice. Blame the politicians. Canada is not a valid country. Activist courts and inaction have made this clear. It's just a matter of time. Lament it all you want but at the end of the day every litigation basically comes down in the side of indigenoous because the courts are too scared and interested in appearing virtuous. There is no way any of this ends well for the nation as a whole.
It would be nice to see where Canadians as a whole fit into this. Right now all we see are activists who likely don’t own anything, and grifters who make money off of it. Those two groups are noisy. What about the silent (hopefully) majority who are paying for it.
You are spot on. The current governments have made it taboo to say too much which is ironic since this is primarily a situation of their making via inaction. I am taking a graduate degree that looks at the resource industry and engagement...it is an interesting topic and one with a lot of nuance but as someone who has knuckle dragged all over the country working with some good indigenou lads I can tell you there are lot of internal push pull going on within their groups as well.
I’ve seen a few comments on here as well from indigenous people. They really need to push things internally as well. So if you’re seeing it that’s good. The way it is now is not sustainable.
Interestingly your Reddit handle is a mikmaq word. It means explosive place or “fart/stinky” commonly. The Pictou area was named that because of the smell of the tides there
"The lawsuit is seeking $95 billion in damages for Treaty 9 First Nations, as well as injunctions to prevent the provincial and federal governments from enforcing regulations in the treaty lands without the consent of the First Nations."
I'm always advocating for rights, however, this is the exact problem of signing treaties, they got their payout, and they signed up for whatever they signed up for and besides basic welfare (ie drinking water), they should live with their decisions that they've already been paid for.
Most of BC didn't sign up for treaties, so there are pros and cons to both sides.
Why is an article about the Treaty 9 lawsuit being shared in the “Vancouver landlords” subreddit? Treaty 9 First Nations rights have nothing to do with that. It’s very Treaty-specific and you all know very well (because I see you commenting it over and over again) that the majority of land in BC is unceded through treaties. Is it boredom? Treaties are Nation-specific and these Nations are not coming for your Vancouver properties.
You mean tax paying citizens in that Ontario and Canada are being sued in the Treaty 9 case, right? Just clarifying to find out if citizens are facing lawsuits as individuals.
It’s about time a province took this approach. While Eby is busy hand-wringing and lecturing others about how racist they are, Ford is taking a strong stance that is pro-Canada and pro-opportunity.
The treaty text is pretty clear over who should make the land decisions:
And they claim that those who signed it weren't educated enough to know what that meant. Welp too bad so sad I guess.
Using your logic. Bc is completely unceded territory and the land was never paid for so they own it all. Look out you can’t have it both ways.
Well it's part of Canada, they missed their window to sign. If they're a sovereign nation...they need to defend it, not play victim.
It is unceded territory meaning the natives still own it. King George, to stave off the Americans from trying to take Canada, declared that the land of Canada was owned by the natives. To get land for Canada he declared that the land would become Canada only by treaties. BC never completed the transaction ie they took the land and diddnt pay for it. so according to the constitution all of bc is still owned by the natives. We should have paid when we were getting it for peanuts.
Well those people who were to sign are gone, on both sides. Canada has been a country since 1867.
Collecting sporadic income based on ancestry doesn't do anyone any good. We've seen that with the continuous payouts for anything and everything, it just causes a big spike in truck and SUV sales along with exacerbating some major cultural/society problems.
Canada’s existence is based on buying the land from the natives of Canada. That was what formed Canada. Until the government honours its contract the land has not been transferred into Canadas hands. We, legally, do not own the land in BC. That said the government is not going to give it to the natives. What is likely to happen is we, the non natives will shove an agreement down their throats pay them some money and be done with it.
Oh wow you're right! So dougie should drop the law suit, because clearly they've ceded their rights and priveledges to the federal government. Thanks for making that clear.
Their way of life of digging for oil, mining minerals and controlling water streams.. you know like their ancestors did for thousands of years /s
It’s ridiculous that this argument is even raised. And any time they get land they just build casinos or hire developers to do the work. They are not becoming independent.
Lol. Just like the "traditional whale hunts" with zodiacs and rifles.
Rifles that are now deemed prohibited for all OTHER Canadians.
Thankfully the courts in BC used their brains and education, and had some inkling of foresight that didn't make themselves look stupid by saying something like this as their prime argument, and therefore, idiocy like this didn't exist in BC for quite some time, circa 30 ish years. The good news for you, is when I was in my lower years in high school, this was the arguments that the western kids tried to tell us how we should have to hunt. So you're not the first to say this, and this is a entry level thing to say from high school (13-14 year old teenager).
How's the price of meat in the stores going for you?
The problem is with greedy bands like Cowichan and Kamloops who are going to mess up your comfortable lifestyle of free handouts and a tax free existence. The truth is, you were slaving other tribes and taking land before it was done to you. You weren't the first people here as archeological evidence shows people before you. Time to join the current Canadians
All archeological evidence does show that first nations were the first people here, show me your articles with peer reviews stating the facts.
Any land that was taken from them, has been annexed. Just like countries all over the world. Time to move forward.
That's the problem, they're not greedy, they are getting something and these bands aren't desolate beggers anymore and that bothers many. They have something and many have a problem with that. Your perspective is everyone should have what you have.
The point is that it's hypocritical that it's called traditional but then done non-traditionally with modern (colonizer) technology. I have absolutely no problem with a traditional whale hunt using canoes and harpoons.
Exactly. If they want to argue the land back idea, then they should get land with nothing on it and they should find the money and investment themselves to develop it or exploit the resources.
You know we would take that deal in a second. Give us our old growth forests back, our wildlife, and salmon and we will be rich beyond our dreams. We would find partners in minutes. Imagine when you get more than $50+/ cubic meter of wood? Our all people would be working and you know what? You would still cry foul! That's the best part. How it wasn't fair. Why would we get so much?
Why don’t they all work now?
Most of us do, tons of ppl in my band have university or college, tons of professionals, doctors lawyers, carpenters, etc. I guess i could ask you the same, why doesn't every western person work? See tons on the streets as well.
Exactly. You’d find someone to do the work for you. And those people are who you call settlers.
Not all the work ffs. But you need capital build a mill. If you're hypothetically making us start with nothing lol, you need capital. Like you don't do a single thing in your life by yourself. You don't make a toothbrush, toothpaste. We would still take the deal any and every day. That's why your not leading negotiator, giving away the province for nothing but that caveat? Easy peasy
Show me what indigenous bands do in-house. All the so called “settlers” had to build from nothing too. You want to build from the work of the settlers.
We weren't excluded from that process of changing the land. Again, we can create that capacity. But as I said above, nobody can do anything without the past, and it's a stupid take trying to find your "gotcha" moment here. I really don't know what you're trying to achieve when you yourself produce nothing. We all rely on someone and something these days - even the Amish have to change their tune a bit to adapt to the modern world. The other side of your coin would be simply we wouldn't have to listen to any of your rules. Why would we? The only rules you try to make up are ones that hinder us. That's your point? That's your gotcha?
When most of your cultural and actual traditions get taken away, this is the best they're most likely able to do.
Not sure if you actually hunt, or hang out in a canoe, but I can't even begin to fathom how insanely dangerous that would be without all the knowledge and skills of back in the day. Canoes are crazy shaky. Also requiring immense strength to spear a multi ton animal. I doubt even the best hunters in the world today would come out of this unscathed or treacherous near-misses for their safety, if they didn't starve in the boats looking for the whales first.
You for sure would be ok with them dying for a meal, and that's a great thing for you to advocate for - if you wear a white pointy toque. Nobody wants to see them die or nearly dying trying to revive their culture my guy.... really. Unless you have an affection for whales, let them be.
I just think if you want to claim a right to do something because it's your tradition, you should have to do it traditionally. If you want to use modern methods, follow the rules that the rest of us have to.
They are already allowed to hunt, fish, and crab all year round with modern tools with no limits.
The rules are already different traditional or modern.
Even that statement is erroneous. Only within your traditional territory is this correct. And then within our culture, we couldn't just go grab 1000 crabs because that's all we want to eat for the year. Need to grab a sustainable amount from each of the areas. Same thing with moose. You don't get to kill 5 moose because you're allowed to. At that point, you would need to be a community hunter and disperse the meat is some organized fashion (used elders and poor ppl first kinda thing). Everyone thinks it's a free for all. Usually at 2 moose killed, people are knocking at your door inquiring what's going on.
That's great that your band is responsible and self govern.
It doesn't change the vague rules that can get abused by bands not so responsible.
Well then it would also be hypocritical of you to be eating foods developed by native Americans. Better stop eating tomatoes, potatoes, beans, corn, etc.. society is like a stew, made from the contributions of many races, not just white people. A black man invented blood transfusions. Does that mean white people can't get them? First nations invented tons of things used today by everyone so why do they have to be frozen in time just to serve your narrative?
I'm not the one claiming special rights because of "tradition". I accept that I live in a modern world and avail myself of it's conveniences. I live within the rules of the society into which I was born. I'm not asking for special privileges.
These aren't special rights lol. Do you know what your tax dollars go towards? And you support that? Do you understand the role of government in a free modern society? These "special privileges" you think natives are asking for, what are they?
They too can pick and choose how they practice their traditions. They never gave up those rights and require no permission from any government besides their own to assert them. They too acknowledge they live in a modern world, just because it doesn't meet your approval doesn't mean a thing.
People unironically believe this, among many other things.
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That's exactly what it means. What are you talking about
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No it's not the same as their way of life at the time of the treaties. They can change their way of life if they choose, and they have. If they want internet and houses and cars fine, but it's not a treaty right
What you're talking about is the "frozen rights" doctrine that says indigenous people must remain static and unchanging, unable to evolve. Whereas the settlers aren't stuck in the 1500's or 1600's. They are able to make laws around things that didn't exist back then like television and radio. It's quite a racist belief. As my grandfather used to say, "what's so special about meeting a white man that at the moment of meeting all your rights are frozen in time?". Unfortunately it's a belief shared by many including those in government.
They absolutely do not, which I already said if you bothered to read my comment instead of just reacting. They can absolutely choose to change. But those changes don't have the muscle of treaty rights behind them.
Native people aren't the only people that have been lied to and used by the Canadian government/British Empire.
Look it up! 🙌 The Brits use to force anyone they could to come to Canada to work the land. People talk about the 60s scoop, about Native children been taken from their parents sent to go work farms, sent to abusive religious schools, but I've watched my grandmother cry about the same thing happening to my Great Grandfather. Crying that we don't know our family name.
The Catholic oppression Native people experienced isn't limited to native peoples..
There are mass graves of other cultures in Canada, we just don't care.
These were orphaned and impoverished children being sent to Canada, a place that regularly has -35c winters. These people are still walking around today.
That's just ONE instance. ONE!
No. The idea is that it was Europeans who brought all this technology and innovation that is being used today. You can’t have it both ways - all your land back plus all the advances that happened because of people who came here.
we need to stop this madness
If royalties were promised, and then they weren’t given is it not fair to ask for compensation?
Its time to apply a statute of limitations.
Nobody alive today wants to
By that logic if your great grandpa passed down a home you should have to give it up with no compensation
They are gaming the system. A system a littany of milquetoast governments allowed to persist because of virtue signalling and cowardice. Blame the politicians. Canada is not a valid country. Activist courts and inaction have made this clear. It's just a matter of time. Lament it all you want but at the end of the day every litigation basically comes down in the side of indigenoous because the courts are too scared and interested in appearing virtuous. There is no way any of this ends well for the nation as a whole.
It would be nice to see where Canadians as a whole fit into this. Right now all we see are activists who likely don’t own anything, and grifters who make money off of it. Those two groups are noisy. What about the silent (hopefully) majority who are paying for it.
You are spot on. The current governments have made it taboo to say too much which is ironic since this is primarily a situation of their making via inaction. I am taking a graduate degree that looks at the resource industry and engagement...it is an interesting topic and one with a lot of nuance but as someone who has knuckle dragged all over the country working with some good indigenou lads I can tell you there are lot of internal push pull going on within their groups as well.
I’ve seen a few comments on here as well from indigenous people. They really need to push things internally as well. So if you’re seeing it that’s good. The way it is now is not sustainable.
Interestingly your Reddit handle is a mikmaq word. It means explosive place or “fart/stinky” commonly. The Pictou area was named that because of the smell of the tides there
95 billion lol Just leave it in the ground not worth to do anything
I guess accountability and honesty aren't taught in the first nations?
Or the concept of math and numbers. 95 Billion! Ah hahahahahahaha.
Kempton rejected the suggestion that the lawsuit seeks “extraordinary” or unprecedented remedies.
Then maybe Kemtpon should foot the bill.
They're not first as archeology has shown. And they're certainly not nations in the way we use the word for every other nation.
They're just Canadians trying to scam the system.
I'm always advocating for rights, however, this is the exact problem of signing treaties, they got their payout, and they signed up for whatever they signed up for and besides basic welfare (ie drinking water), they should live with their decisions that they've already been paid for.
Most of BC didn't sign up for treaties, so there are pros and cons to both sides.
Throw the treaties out.
Shut the system down. They fight agents the province there supply from tax payers end . Enough is enough
Why is an article about the Treaty 9 lawsuit being shared in the “Vancouver landlords” subreddit? Treaty 9 First Nations rights have nothing to do with that. It’s very Treaty-specific and you all know very well (because I see you commenting it over and over again) that the majority of land in BC is unceded through treaties. Is it boredom? Treaties are Nation-specific and these Nations are not coming for your Vancouver properties.
There were lots of intellectual users here that claimed land disputes only occur in BC because the rest of the country is under treaty.
Turns out even under treaty, tax paying citizens will still face lawsuits.
You mean tax paying citizens in that Ontario and Canada are being sued in the Treaty 9 case, right? Just clarifying to find out if citizens are facing lawsuits as individuals.
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I had no idea, I certainly didn’t go to school for this or anything. What is a tax?
It’s become a sub to spread hate to indigenous, no surprise here