Following up on the August 2025 re-indictment in the disappearance of her two young children, Catherine Hoggle has been found competent to stand trial.
Catherine and her partner Troy Turner lived with three children in Montgomery, MD. She struggled with mental health, having a diagnosis of schizophrenia. She was supposed to be supervised at all times when with the children. The Hoggle children were last seen on Sept. 7, 2014 along with Catherine at her parents' house. Catherine and Jacob left in her father's car to pick up pizza; Catherine returned alone 2 hours later and said she had left Jacob with a friend. The parents then took Catherine and Sara home. Troy worked a late shift and checked on Jacob in his crib upon returning home. Jacob wasn't there, but Troy assumed he had climbed in bed with Sara, as sometimes happened. But in the morning, both children were gone, along with their mother. Troy called police but Catherine returned just at that time, saying she had dropped Sara and Jacob off at a daycare in Germantown. When it was time to pick them up, Catherine could not remember the name of the daycare. There followed a drive all around the area trying to find the daycare. Finally Troy was going to the police, but Catherine asked to stop for a drink at Chik-Fil-A. She then ran out the back door and disappeared for four days. When found wandering, she was charged with misdemeanor child neglect but deemed not mentally competent to be tried. She was committed to a maximum security psychiatric hospital and was institutionalized through July 2025. Sarah and Jacob have never been found.
In 2017, Catherine was indicted for two counts of murder. Again she was deemed incompetent to stand trial. This repeated in 2022. Under Maryland law, the court has 5 years to bring such a person to competence, after which time the charges must be dropped. The murder charges were accordingly dropped, but Catherine was ordered to remain confined as a danger to herself and others. But on July 23, 2025, Catherine was discharged from the psychiatric hospital where she had been since 2014. The prosecutors immediately brought charges, and she has been in custody since that time while the courts once again evaluated her competency to stand trial. That has now been decided, with a hearing scheduled for Dec. 23 to determine trial dates.
Catherine has never given any information about where the children are. Troy Turner believes his children are dead, and that Catherine is responsible. Catherine mother, who initially thought the same, seems to have changed her mind and believes that they are with a person who was helping Catherine to escape in 2014. She hasn't given an explanation for her change of thinking and has said it's nothing that LE could use.
ETA See below comment for more background information that was not in this post.
The podcast Unrestorable covers this case in detail and is recommended.
I did a write-up previously where there are some good comments, including from one of the searchers after the disappearance:
Catherine Hoggle is reindicted for murder of her two children, 3 year od Sara and two year old Jacob
Adding some more background to answer a few questions that have come up. Most of this information comes from the Unrestorable podcast. Note that the podcast relies heavily on information from Troy, but also from Lindsay Hoggle, Catherine's mother.
According to Lindsay, Catherine Hoggle had shown signs of mental illness in her teens. Her parents were divorced, and her mother eventually sent her to live with her father Randy since she broke rules and was disruptive in the family. Catherine became pregnant fairly early while dating Troy Turner. She was 22 when they met and he was 36. Troy says they
marriedmoved in together in order to do the best by their child. The baby was born by emergency C-section, and the new family lived in a small apartment. This oldest child lives with Troy and his wife, and their identity has been preserved for safety and privacy reasons.At first, Catherine enjoyed motherhood. Things were normal enough that she and Troy had two more children (Sarah and Jacob) within 5 years. By 2012, Catherine was showing signs of instability and paranoia. One example was when she accosted a stranger on the street and ended up spending the night at their house. Near the end of 2013, Troy enlisted Catherine's parents in a plan whereby they would have Catherine and the children during the day, with various family members being there. But this didn't resolve Catherine's issues, and she was involuntarily committed to a psychiatric ward in December that year. Her diagnosis was schizo-affective disorder. She discharged after a short time but was in and out of the hospital in 2014. At this point, the family devised the plan that someone would always be with her when she was with the children. Obviously this put a strain on the family. The hospital staff told them Catherine was not a danger to herself or others; but Troy worried they might be wrong. Meanwhile Catherine became increasingly worried that her children were going to be taken away from her. All of this led to the events of Sept. 7, 2014.
When she was found after 4 days, police also found her purse, ID and paperwork in a trash can along with "a drawing of a hand throwing away a minivan and three hand-drawn faces of children and a box with the words “wwe vaccine.” A witness at the treatment center on the 7th said she "asked for directions to her stress management class and told the person, “Oh, that’s ironic — I just strangled my kids,” and reportedly made a strangulation motion with her hands. She then told the witness she was “just joking.” " - https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/catherine-hoggle-makes-first-court-192215515.html?guccounter=1
Troy and his legal team have made clear that they think Catherine knows what she's doing and is exploiting the Maryland loophole regarding competency that led to murder charges being dropped. Catherine's lawyer asserts that she is still unable to understand the charges and assist counsel in her defense.
In the present decision, the prosecutors presented text messages Catherine exchanged with her parents and , surprisingly, Troy's wife. Catherine wrote apropos of a suggestion to get a 2nd lawyer: ""… I don't want us to take him if he's offering an obsene price like I think he's going to do. We have a little time to get a reasonable lawyer for all this."" She suggested that a peaceful protest should be held outside the courthouse to show how much support she had. She texted ""My secret for navigating my many diff environments is: Im a chameleon. Sike. I have good support system around me."" Prosecutors argued that she showed understanding of the issues at hand ("My freedom is the situation at hand.") and was taking part in plans regarding her defense. These arguments seem to have been effective.
https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/how-catherine-hoggles-texts-may-have-led-judge-to-rule-her-competent-for-trial/4027328/
I honestly think it’s both - she is genuinely mentally ill and is hoping that will keep her out of prison for life. I have a family member with a similar diagnosis and she is definitely not “normal,” especially if unmedicated. But she is also still a smart person who is capable of manipulating others or trying to get her way. I think Catherine knew was she was doing when she did it but her frame of mind was delusional. I think there is strategy behind trying to use the delusional part of her mind to lessen her culpability.
Everything I’ve read says they were longtime partners but did not ever marry. In some articles they are referenced as being in a “common law marriage.”
This is correct. They were not married. They decided to have the baby and live together to bring the child up in the best way, i.e., with two parents. They were not long term partners at the time, but they did continue to live together through the time the youngest children disappeared.
I’m (almost) always on the side of innocent until proven guilty, but the more I read about the more I’m wondering if that’s not the case here.
Where was their eldest child when all of this happened? They would’ve been young, right? Maybe seven or eight at the time? (Unless my pre-morning caffeine brain is worse at maths than it normally is)
Also, she said she dropped the children off at a daycare. I don’t know the rules and laws around daycares (or any other similar services, like kindy, pre-school, prep etc) in other countries but I thought children had to be registered at a specific place with set days and times, parents contact info, emergency contacts, payment details etc for them to be able to go. Is that different in the US or in certain states?
The oldest child went to school that morning. I believe you're right that you have to sign up/register with a daycare in advance, so I'm not sure why Troy would have accepted the story that she dropped them off. Somewhere I read or heard that they had been looking into the idea, but not that they had registered.
Places like gyms and rec centres often have drop-off daycare
There are also drop-in daycares near me that don’t require anything more than an online registration and a parent ID when you get there.
When my kids were small there were walk in daycares that only did drop offs and charged by the hour. I was a stay at home mom and didn’t need full time daycare. I would drop my boys off there when I wanted to get my nails done or my haircut.
Yup. They were called dropins here. They did encourage you to pre-register but that was just paperwork and you could do it then.
One of the articles said police think she came back to abduct the oldest at his bus stop, but Troy had walked him there that morning so she couldn’t.
Correction, the ages of the children when they went missing are reversed. Sarah was 3 and Jacob was 2.
I’m confused, she wasn’t allowed to be with the children alone, but they lived at the same home as her? Also, what happened to the third child living with them?
It was not a legal requirement that she not be alone with her children. She voluntarily sought inpatient treatment for her schizophrenia and when she was released, the family decided they would not leave her alone with the children as in someone would supervise her with the children. But again this was never a legal requirement and I’m not sure that the family had any real power to enforce their choice here.
The fact that this only came from the family and not the legal system is from one of the sources OP provided. If you read the previous post they listed, as well as the comments, you can see how this was a highly sad and complicated situation for everyone. It seems the mom still had all her legal rights for herself and as a parent, and it seems that the family was trying to figure out how best to navigate a very difficult situation.
But I understand the frustration as I don’t want to blame the woman who was voluntarily seeking treatment for her mental illness… I think the system as a whole failed here or at least a major flaw was exposed. Also I hope none of this comment comes off as argumentative as that’s not my intention, just wanting to add some context and information gleaned from the sources and the previous post which was quite a bit longer.
I have a friend with schizophrenia that has 2 kids. I've known her since her oldest was like 2 & he's almost 18, now. Things have been insanely difficult, at times. The oldest's sperm donor has NEVER been around in the entire time I've known her & then when my friend was hospitalized, almost 2 years ago, her daughter's father came & took her, completely out of the blue. The man never paid a cent in support, had only visited with her a handful of times, in ten years & now, has her in a different state & the courts are slow & useless. She doesn't even have her daughter's address. I know her kid's went through shit they shouldn't have but she always kept them fed & sheltered & stayed in her community program & people can be so cruel to her, while the dad's were uninvolved for a majority of the time. Her kids are both very intelligent, caring & responsible so she's doing something right.
Sorry for the rant, schizophrenia just fucking sucks.
that hurts my heart for your friend
That’s awful. I’m so sorry that your friend and her children are going through, and have been through, all of this.
It sounds like she did the best she could by her children and herself without the help of their so called ‘fathers’. I feel for her daughter too, she probably wants to talk to and see her Mum and older brother.
I know there are a lot of cases that go through court everyday and there may be other cases that are deemed ‘more important’ or ‘urgent’, but that doesn’t take away from the pain and anguish your friend and her kids are feeling.
I hope everything is resolved as soon as possible.
Her mother doesn't seem to care that her grandchildren are likely dead. That's not remotely normal.
She seems to believe they are with a person or group that is keeping them safe. Denial? Perhaps.
Yes feels like willful self-delusion. Part of me can't blame her tbh, I can't imagine how painful this situation must be.
Convenient excuse for her to hide behind. If I was her I'd want to know what person or group. And why?
But she knows it isn't true. I suspect she's covering up and playing dumb as well.
She's not getting any younger either.
I know her mom personally, and I assure you, she cares. I think a lot of the reason she maintains a relationship with Catherine (a relationship that has been very hard for her) is that she hopes Catherine will disclose the location of those kids.
What about the dad?
I'm not in contact with her dad but my understanding is that they are very close.
Sure seems like he helped her get away with this and even facilitated by letting her take the car and leave alone with the kid.
I hope his role comes tomorrow light and that he's held accountable for whatever he's done.
Thank you for adding this context. What a horribly tragic situation all the way around.
Well said.
You… don’t want to blame the person who almost certainly murdered her children and then covered it up for over a decade??
I blame her. There’s no mental illness in the world that requires that type of behavior. The fact that she was “seeking treatment” makes it worse, not better. She had resources and support and instead of working on herself decided that she should murder her own children in an act of obscene selfishness.
Here is my comment where I talk about things that I have done due to acute psychosis, while actively being treated and on antipsychotic medication, including long acting depo injections
Psychosis makes you COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY CONVINCED BEYOND ANY AND ALL DOUBT of things that outside of an episode you would immediately dismiss. Not only that, but a lot of the time, the delusions involve catastrophic harm to others/humanity, that only you can stop by completing some type of ritual. Most of the time, the rituals are completely innocent, but sometimes they can involve committing horrific acts of violence.
Also, it is incredibly common for symptoms to disappear after a person begins treatment, only for them to return suddenly and at a much more severe level weeks or months later despite being on medication and seeing psychiatric professionals.
The illiteracy around mental health I see round Reddit lately is so disappointing.
Yes, mental illness absolutely can cause a person to do utterly heinous things, including harm their own children. If somebody is severely psychotic and genuinely believes a paranoid delusion that their children are the devil, or that they need to be ‘saved’ from some or another awful fate by being sent to Heaven, or any other bizarre hallucination- that person has not ‘chosen’ to harm their children. That’s why the notion of competency exists in the first place.
*Now, I’m not saying Sarah Hoggle fits into this category of person whose psychosis was the sole cause of their crime. We will have to wait and see what comes out in the trial.
Are you aware of ANY validated case study in which someone maintained a delusion for 11 years while under treatment? Her continued lies undermine the original mental health claim.
Here's 2 facts. Approximately 1/3 of people with schizophrenia will go into full remission, sometimes without medical assistance at all. And about 30% of people with schizophrenia are treatment resistant, meaning meds don't do a thing. No effect at all, except the side effects, and there are always side effects.
It's no like diabetes, where you take your medicine and feel better. It's more like a roll of the dice.
“She decided.”
This sort of rhetoric demonstrates you don’t understand how a lot of mental illness works.
There are absolutely illnesses that can make someone not responsible for their actions.
I feel like a lot of people just straight have not ever interacted with a person in psychosis. It's difficult to understand until you've done it, I guess.
Yeah I agree. Also, in all the rush to de-stigmatise mental illness (a good thing in general!), there’s become this like knee jerk reaction to dismiss any harmful behaviour a person does as not because of mental illness (‘I have mental illness and it’s never made me kill/become a Nazi/be racist/“ etc) and like- it’s overly simplifying a really complex issue. Not least of all because there’s a world of difference between anxiey/depression, and psychosis.
I don’t say that psychosis doesn’t exist or that it can’t in limited circumstances excuse horrible behavior. I’m saying this isn’t that case and this person is pulling a con.
She's been in a psychiatric hospital for 11 years. It would be incredibly difficult, bordering on nearly impossible, to convincingly fake psychosis for that long.
There’s no evidence she was considered psychotic throughout. She’s been released and then re-confined a few times based on the criminal proceedings changing. She’s confessed privately and strategized about her defense. This is my point. She’s a murdering con artist who has managed to just stay out of prison.
Someone asked where I heard she confessed. Its here: https://bethesdamagazine.com/2025/12/09/hoggle-competency-hearing-december-2025-conflicting/ and was apparently raised at her bond hearing by prosecutors so it must be somewhat credible
“There’s no mental illness in the world” implies you were just speaking about her
There are, but I’m not sure that’s the case here. It’s totally possible for her to be paranoid and/or delusional and still be responsible for her children’s disappearances.
I think it’s very possible she thought she had to kill the children for some reason; if she really feels that Troy was abusive, that could have been enough. Deciding that she had to kill her kids using faulty reasoning stemming from her mental illness isn’t quite the same thing as actually not knowing what she was doing, and it’s very different from not understanding right and wrong.
The way she lied and obfuscated after disappearing the kids strongly suggests that she knew she’d done something wrong. The fact that she made two separate decisions to take a child and return without them shows that she was thinking and planning, and the nature of her excuses shows rational judgment. She knew what people would believe.
Also, it’s worth mentioning that no one has ever argued that she is not guilty by reason of insanity. They have only argued that she’s not competent to stand trial, which is a whole different issue. The question of her competence at the time of the disappearances has yet to be raised.
I’m just saying things are more complicated than we know and the fact that things haven’t gone to trial—which is where pleas would happen—make it harder to say anything definitive
She’s definitely complicated; no argument there!
There’s no indication that she plans to offer an inanity plea, though - her lawyer is still insisting that she did not harm her children. Of course that could change, and it’ll be very interesting to see how it plays out.
That just sounds like a good lawyer, tbh. Why imply you’re going to implicate your client if you have no reason to yet?
Yeah sure. People like Andrea Yates. People who’ve been pushed to the brink by their families and beliefs. Not people who have other options, plan it out, commit the murders most likely separately, and then cover it up for a decade running.
You're using terms like "excuses" or "requires" behaviours. That's a very odd hill to die on. Some mental illnesses will CAUSE behaviours. There is no "working on yourself" or "deciding" during acute psychosis, you numpty.
Its the pretty white woman effect
Nah. There’s something specific to Reddit where if someone invokes mental illness they get invulnerable plot armour.
Troy has married and the oldest child lives with him and his wife.
Sorry, what? Troy was married at the time these kids disappeared? And the other child lived with him and his wife? So he didnt live with Catherine?
The very first sentence of your write up says that Catherine and Troy lived with the three kids..?
No, between 2014 and now, Troy married another person and the third child lives with them.
OP is referring to current day— Troy has remarried, and the eldest child lives with him and his current wife.
Troy and Catherine were not married.
Bizarre that she seemingly did this in stages. Not the MO of A family annihilator really, and you'd think if she was having a severe break for that long her family would notice. Rip children
She didn't have the opportunity to get all 3 at once. Katherine's father let her take Jacob to go buy a pizza when he wasn't supposed to. She did the same with Sarah the next morning.
He parents are culpable! Those poor babies
I can't help but read between the lines here, and maybe reading too much in to it but... The father had concerns for the safety of the children, obviously, but why? There's no mention of abuse or a specific incident that would cause him to feel that way, so he must have been implying there was with out saying directly. I feel like there's more to the story, otherwise the family wouldn't have tried to monitor her time with her kids.
Perhaps she didn't directly abuse or hurt them, but perhaps had mentioned to him or someone in the family that her impulses were urging her to hurt her kids. I understand the delicacy of the situation and the complications of family dynamics, and how difficult this all can be. The whole situation is awful, but those kids are most likely no longer with us. It just doesn't make sense that someone helping her would still have these kids considering the situation and ramifications.
It was mentioned in the comments and on the podcast about the case that Catherine exhibited poor or irrational decision-making. She would go into dangerous parts of the area, go off with strangers. I think Troy worried that she would do these things with the kids, and they would come to harm through her carelessness or irrational behavior. He didn't necessarily think she would harm them.
If this is the concerning behaviour, I think this helps explain why her parents behaved the way they did. Especially the former, going into dangerous parts of the area is such a nebulous risk (99.9% of the time you'll be fine, many people live in these areas). Going off with strangers is more concerning, but again if she isn't leaving her kids with the strangers it's not exactly something major enough you could lose custody for.
This behaviour all sounds relatively subjective - it's not ideal, but it's a far cry from believing she would hurt them herself.
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She spent the night at the stranger’s place after accosting them? Dafuq?
From other things I have read and listened to about this case, I think people around her knew she was “off” but not to the point of thinking she was capable of killing the kids.
Families love to downplay and deny how mentally ill someone is (and sometimes just don’t understand how mental illness works I.e the person talks normally or works so they must be fine). You see it all the time when someone mentally ill has a mental breakdown and goes missing and likely dies- the family refuses to believe they were that unwell.
Absolutely bonkers that a 36 year old man impregnates a mentally ill 22 year old and then impregnating her 2 more times within 5 years goes shocked pikachu face when the woman is, in fact, mentally ill and not a safe parent. But I think he’s also responsible for taking advantage of a vulnerable young woman. The only people I feel bad for are the poor children who have no say who their parents are.
thank you! i always thought that was way weird. in no way is this as simple as “that evil woman stole my kids from me and got away with it” like troy wants to portray. youre right, ultimately the kids pay the most for their parents’ judgment calls
Mentally ill and/or disabled women are giant targets for abusers. Add in the age difference and I don’t see Toby as innocent by any means. He was 14 years her senior and her own parents couldn’t take care of her due to her mental health. He knew she was an unsafe mother due to her mental health and kept getting her pregnant. Honestly i think he’s the evil one here ¯_(ツ)_/¯
ETA: even if she has been “faking” schizoeffective disorder like so many people in this thread like to believe—she has been showing severe disfigured behavior/thinking since being a teen. Who in their adult mind would want to have children with someone like that? She was only 22 and he was nearly 40!! I’m tired of people having kids with shitty partners and then being all sad and shocked when shitty partner is still the same person they had kids with.
I think she was able to hide a lot of the past illness from him.
The man was still 36 years old impregnating a 22 year old who doesn’t have their prefrontal cortex fully developed yet. He’s not innocent.
She was 22, not 18. She wasn't a child. If she was unable to make her own decisions, she should have had a legal guardian well before this.
He is absolutely "innocent" in the disappearance and presumed murder of his kids. Do I think the age gap is weird? Yes. But it has jack shit to do with Katherine killing their kids, allegedly
A woman likely murdered her two kids and you're placing the blame on the husband in a completely legal (though a bit creepy) relationship with an adult?
Did not blame the husband for the missing kids. Blamed the husband for creating the children with a mentally unstable vulnerable woman.
She’s been deemed incompetent for trial for years and has been in a psych ward for years—clearly it’s a bit more complicated than that
I agree. I dont know that she should be charged if she was in a mental break. She definitely needs psychiatric help and will need more if she comes to and realizes what she's done to the kids.
She knows what she did to her kids. She's able to lie and obscure the truth. This isn't an Andrea Yates situation.
This is absolutely fucking heartbreaking. Poor Catherine.
Catherine's parents fucking knew that she was not supposed to be left alone with the children, and yet they not only let her leave the house with Jacob, but when she returned 2 hours later without him OR the pizza she was supposed to be getting, they just accepted her story, and then dropped her home with Sara.
They are exactly like Rusty Yates, and like Rusty, they will receive zero fucking punishment.
I suffer a psychotic disorder, and during episodes, I can appear completely normal to others, yet the delusions and hallucinations are horrific, and have driven me to do awful things as a result.
TW: False SA accusation
I once made a 4 hour long police report against my husband claiming he had been sexually abusing his toddler nieces, because when I tried to call him when he was at his sister's he didn't immediately answer and when he called back he told me he had been bathing the girls while his sis was breastfeeding her newborn, and my psychosis convinced me that combined with completely innocent interactions he had with them meant that he was abusing them. I even took photos of him cuddling and playing with the girls while they were wearing only diapers (due to the summer ave temp being 45°C/113°F). Thankfully, the cops discovered that it was false due to my psychiatric history (I had been detained multiple times under the NSW Mental Health Act and placed in involuntary psychiatric treatment) and I was hospitalised. I also tried to kill my 10yo sister when I was 15yo, during my 4th episode, because I believed that doing so would save the world from the impending apocalypse (9/11 triggered an episode, and I believed it was the sign of the apocalypse), because my sisters name is Celeste, and I believed that if I cut her chest open, her soul would be freed, and it would call the angels from Heaven to save us. As a result, I spent 7 months in a locked adolescent psychiatric hospital and was released to a group home for mentally ill young people until I was 18, with multiple returns to hospital because of psychosis.
During both episodes (and basically every one of the dozens of episodes I have suffered), nobody had any idea that I was experiencing these beliefs, and I was able to "mask" during my interactions with my family, and friends. I have also been on antipsychotic medication since I was 13yo, when I had my first episode, and have been managed by psychiatrists, and all my episodes have began while I have been medication compliant, including while being on depo antipsychotics, although the delusions very quickly convince me that I am "cured" and to cease taking my meds.
As a result of my episodes, I decided as a teenager that I would never have children, and always used long term hormonal contraception combined with physical barrier contraception, and had a hysterectomy at 31.
i have done completely and utterly unsafe things when unmedicated and undiagnosed. i ran away from home at 17, i used to go with strangers places at 19, i let an abusive boyfriend dictate my life at 18, and so much more. nobody thought anything, i was normal to everyone. until i was medicated and acted differently, and everyone was surprised at the stark contrast. it's dangerous and bad. i would plan out harm on myself, as my brain tried to convince me that it was the right thing to do, it was the only way to feel human.
i would never harm another person, normally, at least never intentionally. but if i were to be unmedicated and stopped therapy, i would go off the deep end. i become a danger to myself and others.
i also decided to never have children, as i wouldn't want to pass on my health issues or make life difficult for them. mental illness is no joke.
Thank you for sharing your story.
My pleasure. I am happy to share my experiences with mental illness, in the hope that it helps someone have a clearer understanding or what it fan be like for the person who experiences these types of episodes.
People have this misconception that psychosis is just hallucinations, which is totally wrong. The delusions are just as bad as the hallucinations, and in some cases, even worse. I suffer from auditory, visual and tactile hallucinations, and the hallucinations ALWAYS begin exactly the same. I always have an electric fan on when I go to bed, and it starts by me waking up in the middle of sleep, and once I am properly awake, I begin to realise that there is a radio station playing somewhere quietly. I can barely hear it through the hum of the fan, after concentrating for a few minutes, I realise that the presenters are talking about me. They talk about all different parts of my life, but then occasionally they will say something that isn't true but they don't say it any different than the true things. Every so often, the radio will play one of my favourite songs, before going back to talking about me.
I become OBSESSED with listening to the radio, and abandon the idea of sleep, instead I sit on my bed and write notes about what they are saying.
After a few hours, one of the presenters will say something like "Did you know" and then they will say something like "Ezra really upset "insert person who it could end up doing loads of damage if I did upset them' and now they are incredibly angry and they are plotting their revenge" or something else to trigger paranoia (once it was that I had locked my cat outside all night, and I freaked out and ran to let her in, and proceeded to trip over him and break my nose and wrist). Then they just go back to chatting about my life like before, however, my mind is now super hyperactive, thinking about the bad thing that I have done and what the potential consequences are going to be. This can go one of two ways. The radio station slowly becomes quieter and quieter as it becomes daylight, and eventually it's gone. And sometimes when the radio stops, I forget about the delusion. Other times, I keep thinking about it, and the delusion begins to snowball.
The visual hallucinations are things that are just on the edges of my vision, like shadow people, swarms of bugs, demons, cascading blood, someone running at me with a weapon, and rolling darkness. They come and go throughout an episode.
Tactile hallucinations include feeling bugs on my skin, feeling like I have been cut open and am bleeding, feeling like I am missing a limb, losing feeling in parts of my body, thinking I am paralysed and unable to walk, and feeling like my limbs or extremities are ridiculously large or incredibly minuscule.
And the delusions are fucked up.
Sending hugs, that sounds really scary and intense.
Guessing she'll suddenly become incompetent again.
I don't doubt she's mentally ill, but I do believe she's also being manipulative. Her actions during the crime were logical and intentionally deceptive.
If I can't have them, then nobody will? This seems to be her reasoning? She knew what she was doing and I'm glad she's been found competent to stand trial.
Yup. Its calculated domestic abuser logic through and through and a total embarrassment that Maryland has allowed her to skate by for so long with this competency ruling.
thankyou
It's wild how many people are totally excusing her and some comments even blaming the husband because of the age gap lmao
A lot of women with this particular illness believe to kill a child is to remove it from a horrible violent world, doing it a favor and in fact what God expects from you. Is it wrong? Yes but they cannot comprehend this in the moment.
It’s not 100% clear what her illness actually is. I’ve read both paranoid schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder, which are quite different, although it’s pretty common for the two to be very hard to distinguish diagnostically, especially since she’s likely been hiding or trying to alter features of her presentation right from the beginning.
Reading excerpts from her text messages and phone calls kinda makes me think schizoaffective is more likely.
I'm not sure how I feel about this. Yes, she killed her kids, but she is mentally ill and was not supposed to be left alone with them.
Frankly, I blame the husband and family more, WTF were they thinking?
She’s mentally ill BUT the suspected motive at the time was fear and resentment of her family and partner taking her kids away from her and taking more control of the situation. She said as much shortly before the murder.
Also she knew it was wrong to kill them. The coverup afterwards of lying to her partner and then finally fleeing and hiding when it became apparent her lies weren’t working tells me she knew right from wrong. That’s the legal definition in regard to culpability with mental illness.
I do think answers need to be given to lay the children to rest and for public safety reasons alone she needs to be separated from society. She was deemed a danger to others for 7 years even with medications and psychiatric treatment. Sorry I wouldn’t want to unknowingly live near her being a new mom to a 9 month old.
Andrea Yates was different in that she confessed immediately to what she had done and even though she could petition to be released from the psychiatric facility in recent years, she has chosen to stay there as she’s doing well there and believes it’s best. Catherine’s behavior indicates she’s much more dangerous to society.
For 7 years Catherine was deemed far too dangerous by multiple doctors to be released back into society according to their testimony at each court hearing.
Yes her parents should’ve been much stricter but keep in mind she was attending an out patient day program and at that time and that CPS wasn’t notified nor any of Catherine’s treating providers told the family she wasn’t allowed unsupervised around the children. It was simply her partner agreeing with her parents to supervise her. At the time it wasn’t due to fear of her intentionally hurting the children but because of her poor and irresponsible decision making.
Catherine was very vocal about her intense resentment about having her family agreeing to supervise her interactions with her children. She was very angry about that and assumed (probably correctly or with some truth in there especially if her and her partner split up - which the relationship wasn’t in a good place) that the kids would be taken away from her.
Id say she might have known the law thought it was wrong but not feel so morally depending on the illnesses state. If someone thinks a law is unjust or evil, they may go against it believing theyre morally right.
If it wasn't a health care provider that said she needed supervision then I'm not sure it needs to be repeated as much as it is.
Her family decided she needed supervision and then didn't do it. They can't have it both ways. It can't be "she was gonna do something to hurt the children" and "well we thought she wouldn't hurt the children" at the same time.
The children’s father made that decision. It was his attempt to keep their family together while still making the children safe.
HeCatherine’s father dropped them all off at Catherine’s parents’ home before Troy went to work so that Catherine and the kids would be supervised.Catherine’s parents were obviously not convinced that it was necessary, and they let her not only take Jacob out alone, but also return to her home with just the other two kids. It’s pretty telling that her mother, at least, still firmly believes that Catherine did not harm her children.
I’ll repeat it since you didn’t read what I wrote. Her partner wanted someone there to supervise her with the children due to irresponsible behavior taking place like her ability to drive and driving in sketchy areas for no reason. Nobody thought she would intentionally harm and murder her children. They thought her poor decision making skills would could possibly put the children in an unsafe environment or situation inadvertently.
I’m not defending her elderly father’s actions for allowing her to run and grab pizza with her son. I’m sure he privately regrets it everyday of his life.
Should her partner have called CPS to put a mandated safety plan in place due to her irresponsible decision making skills and maybe her parents would’ve followed through much better on never allowing her to be unsupervised especially when driving because they would’ve feared court action / the children taken? Yesthe partner should’ve done that.
For the most part her statements of being resentful and angry leading up to this was directed to other patients at the day program and drawings she made while in those classes.
I’m not defending the family. Yes her mother’s statements now are inconsistent with her original statements regarding her beliefs about her daughter’s guilt and if the children are alive. It’s bizarre to us BUT i can’t imagine being in the psychological position of the child you raised and gave birth to murdering your grandchildren. I’m sure privately there’s a lot of guilt. I just think the denial now is a way to survive psychologically
No need to get rude, youre going to come up against questions & differing opinions when posting. I read what you wrote, I just dont agree with you.
There have been cases where that happened, but this isn't one of those cases so I'm not sure why that's relevant.
Yes, there are many things the partner should have done. The mother isn't blameless, she should receive punishment. I think more was withheld from CPS than should have been. You don't go from "maybe needs supervision" to "a danger to the public" overnight. Lots more was withheld from the right people to "keep the family together".
Where are you getting information that CPS had an open case against her at the time? I said he should’ve reported her to CPS. That wasn’t done.
Also most people don’t imagine or think their loved one would intentionally murder their children.
In the vast majority of cases someone with mental illness who’s a mom needs supervision and supportive services unless they actively threaten to kill their children or are physically abusive. I worked in social services until recently when I decided to stay home with our infant. Unless her family heard her threaten to cause harm to her children or witnessed/suspected physical abuse, I can understand them thinking by giving her supervision and making her attend that full time out patient day program they were doing the best they could.
The threats were made to other mental health patients and drawings she made in class that she threw away immediately after. These patients didn’t come forward until after their disappearance and the drawings were only found after police searched the trash after the disappearance. Hence the presumed motive and her family wasn’t aware of.
In all likelihood, without substantiated allegations of physical abuse or threats to physically harm her children, if she was attending a full time day program for mental health and her parents and partner agreed to general supervision that’s very likely all CPS would require anyways if it was reported. It’s an extremely high threshold to remove children from a mother/parent especially not allowing any access. It also has to be proven as CPS has to go to court. I said if it had been reported hopefully the parents would’ve been more diligent about supervising her.
My entire point is putting her parents or partner in prison really does nothing. The remaining living child would have her father taken from her life and elderly grandparents would had no clue how this would turn out and made a mistake I assure you thousands of other family do daily. The only difference is most mentally ill people in active intensive treatment don’t kill their children out of anger and resentment to those around them.
Oh, I see, because you said "cps hadn't been notified or other health providers" in the original, I thought they were involved on some level.
I didnt say anything about her parents or partner going to prison. I'm saying more than one person was negligent here and that should be acknowledged. I dont know anybody who would leave a struggling schizophrenic to take small children anywhere. Either the parents didn't understand the illness or didn't care enough to learn.
You seem pretty zeroed in on this woman being the sole problem here. I dont agree. My biological mother was severely mentally ill, to this level, and deemed a danger more than once by more than once agency. There is an awful lot of enablement that goes into these situations, and even more excuses when things go terribly wrong.
I’m sorry to hear that. That’s awful. However keep in mind Catherine wasn’t deemed an actual threat to her children or dangerous until after her children disappeared. It was thought she needed intensive treatment and family support/supervision to ensure her poor decision making didn’t inadvertently or accidentally harm the children. That’s very different than being deemed too dangerous to be around her children.
Keep in mind how rare this kind of case is. If CPS lowered their threshold overall for removing children from their mothers such as it was many decades ago, mothers with postpartum depression, mental illness, struggling with poverty or a minority would unfairly loose their children.
Most people who struggle with mental illness and their families need resources and support which she was receiving. Keep in mind this case is very rare and that’s why it’s remained such a big national story for a decade.
No doctor or treating therapist deemed her dangerous or a physical threat to her children at the IOP she was attending 8 hours a day. If they had they are mandated to make a report to CPS. If not they would lose their license. So nobody, including her family, knew she was an intentional danger to her children prior.
Why? I personally suspect that although her mental illness definitely played a significant role, this was an act of spite and anger not because she was in a psychosis. She was fearful of her children being taken which given how fragile her relationship was at the time and her impairments in judgement around her children due to her mental illness, that fear wasn’t unfounded. If her relationship ended, her partner almost certainly would’ve gained full custody as family court is very different and has a different standard than CPS going to court and removing a child from their mother.
Having family support / supervision / help and attending an intensive outpatient day program is in most cases an excellent care plan for a parent struggling with mental illness.
Enabling is a spectrum and in my experience almost all families do it to some extent. Some less than others. If we’re being honest with ourselves, both of us have probably enabled someone in our lives at some point atleast one time. I don’t think I’ve met a single parent who didn’t enable their child atleast once. A lot of people mistake enabling as helping. Again it’s a spectrum. Lastly she wasn’t an addict. Especially since she was in intensive treatment for mental health treatment, I’m sure there are times when she appeared normal. Mental illness is very complex and hard to understand especially for some parents to adults with mental illness. It’s still their child. It’s much more nuanced.
If anything support and therapy for the family dealing with such a situation would’ve been beneficial in this case but again I truly don’t think anyone could have foreseen Catherine planning and carrying out the systemic murder of first one child and then hours later her other one.
Tl:Dr
Also, her not being deemed a danger means nothing. The right people weren't being told the right things. Like I said, a lot of enablement goes into these situations. Her family enabled her and she murdered the children.
Are you the dads new wife or something?
No. I use to work in social services before staying home with my infant daughter and read a lot about this case as I’ve encountered a lot of parents struggling with mental health in my career so I was interested in the case.
Just because someone worked in the field and states they believe the situation with her family is probably complex and nuanced doesn’t mean I’m the partners new wife. I’m also stating that to the vast majority of parents with mental illness do not murder their children intentionally so this is a very rare occurrence.
Not related to the family or have any connection to them whatsoever. I clearly stated I have a newborn daughter which is why I’m currently not working in my field and that to my knowledge the partner and his new wife do not have a newborn child. So nice try.
She was mentally ill, but she actively lied about where they were. She knew what she did was wrong, or else she would've just admitted that she killed them and where they were.
Being mentally ill doesn't mean you don't know right from wrong.
Compare it to Andrea Yates, who immediately called the police and confessed to what she did.
When you are in full paychosis, you don't know right from wrong necessarily, because what world you perceive yourself to be in might be very different. Could be paranoia, could be any sort of delusion. While people with schizophrenia and schizo-affective disorder commit murder at a lower rate than people without those disorders, there have been plenty of cases where someone who had one of those illness committed murder because they thought they were saving the world/people because of a direct connection with god, or that they are a werewolf, or that they are sending their children to heaven, etc.
Right, which is why I mentioned Andrea Yates.
She was experiencing psychosis when she killed her kids and immediately called the police to report what she did.
That's not the case here. She lied to her family over and over again. First saying she left one kid with friends and then trying to name different daycares she left them at.
She knew what she did was wrong and tried to cover it up.
I'm not sure why you're trying to make excuses for her. Yes, people with mental illness are more likely to be victims of crimes than perpetrators, but that's not the case here. This was purposeful.
She was allowed the opportunity to dispose of her children when the rest of the family knew she was a risk to them.
They seem to not care about the lives of the children to the same degree as Catherine.
I never said they didn't.
I said that her being mentally ill isn't an excuse. She knew what she was doing and she lied to cover it up.
This wasn't required by court or anything, it's just something her family decided when she was released from treatment. But there was no way to legally enforce that as it wasn't court ordered
Okay? Still doesn't explain why the family left her alone with the kids.
Troy didn’t leave her alone with the kinds. He took Catherine to her parents’ house along with the kids when he left for work, which was their usual arrangement.
Catherine’s parents were the ones who didn’t take it seriously and allowed her to be alone with the children.
This is not entirely accurate. Though, her parents, clearly were also negligent here.
Catherine’s father resided with them, and he drove her and the children, to her mother’s home. From what I’ve read, the agreement was also that Catherine not be permitted to drive.
Catherine’s mother, Lindsey, was not at home when she left with Jacob.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/charges-pending-against-maryland-mom-in-disappearance-of-2-kids/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/police-grave-concerns-over-missing-children/2014/09/09/a91d776c-3828-11e4-8601-97ba88884ffd_story.html
There are so many points of failure in this entire situation. It’s so sad. If the children are dead, I hope they didn’t suffer and weren’t scared.
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Finally. Can’t wait until justice is served for these babies. I’m in the area and have been waiting for her to be found competent.
I'm so glad the judge said she is competent to stand trial! I wish she'd say where the children are. I never trusted her from day 1 and I've always believed that she knew where they were and what she was doing. With those text messages coming out and giving an insight into how she really is, it was the best thing; now she can stand trial and hopefully go to jail for life. This is too close to home, literally!
I didn't know Troy was that much older than her. Gives me the ick. That and why he believed the stories, makes this whole thing even weirder.
I don't think he believed her. Her parents did. Her dad is the one who gave her Jacob.
The Prosecutors Podcast has a good episode about this case where they discuss competency from a legal standpoint. It was good. I’m hoping they’ll do a follow up now that this has been decided
The prosecuters worked for Trump, and give biased views on cases, let's not with them.
Brett Talley: A former Deputy Assistant Attorney General, Talley was nominated by President Trump for a federal judgeship but received a rare "not qualified" rating from the American Bar Association. His nomination was criticized due to his lack of courtroom experience and controversial past statements, including remarks defending the founder of the Ku Klux Klan.
Is she at the same hospital as Lindsey Clancy?
All I've read is that she was to be remanded to a state psychiatric institution, unnamed.