It’s interesting I had this question for years as well and someone described it as this. When we’re alive we have not yet stepped into the world to come in the realm of eternity. While we still breathe we have the opportunity to repent. Once that’s over and we pass on, we’ve lost that opportunity, the deed is done and we’re judged. Imagine rebelling in eternity where time and space are not defined or found. It’s over for them.
God explains this often. Satan and his angels knew God's glory, rules and more. They chose, knowing the truth, to rebel. On top of this scripture, including Book of Enoch, has God tell us and show us these fallen angels the second time they fall, and probably the first too, teach mankind all manner of evil. They use Heavenly Knowledge to teach how to make weapons for example and this leads to mass wars in and before Noahs time.
Add to this their offspring the giants, who become the demons when God kills them in the flood and their spirits are cursed and more.
They have no excuse. Imagine being an angel seeing God make Earth and more and you fight God and more? Us Humans are born into sin but God came to give us a chance to choose Him and life.
Consider this; Why did your guardian angel and mine and Michael and Gabriel not betray God? See? Angels knew the truth. Satan and his minions chose to rebel, and they naturally knew better than humans. No one forced them to do this and if you read Book of Adam and Eve, it claims Jesus gives Satan time to repent, literally in Heaven Jesus is saying stuff like," Please turn from this way of thinking."
If true, and even if not, it would mean Jesus even gave the devil chances to repent. The devil chose not to and faced the rightful fair consequences for his actions. God is good, amen.
Satan and his angels are not human. God has a separate plan for them, and there is not a lot said about what that plan is other than they will eventually be condemned to hell.
God's mercy and love is not infinite. To humans, God shows mercy and love now, but there will be a time where judgment comes and that mercy and love will turn to fury and wrath.
Too many people want to believe that God is all love, nothing but love, and will always be love, but that is far from truth.
I feel like your question is leading an answer. His mercy and love are not diminished by people or angels going to hell. A better question might be: are devils redeemable?
The comments to this thread that I see are missing one key component. I think we must first ask ‘what were the angels (and Lucifer) created for?’ Their eternal trajectory isn’t the same as ours because they were ‘built different’. They were given a specific task (messenger) that’s different than what we humans have, so why should their outcome be the same as ours?
Answers to that would be more telling, I would think.
Because Angels are different than us. They're highly intelligent and were well aware of the consequences of their decision to rebel against God. They did it anyway.
well people can reject God then return. think of atheists that convert. these answers kinda make sense and im sure satans pride wont let him repent, but i am failing to see how it isnt possible since infinite love and mercy means just that. infinite.
well people can reject God then return. think of atheists that convert.
Yes, because those people do not see God face to face. Even if they reject God their rejection isn’t final since they lack complete and certain knowledge of God’s existence(as opposed to the angels). They still maintain access to what we Catholics call actual grace—which is facilitating their vacillating states of for/against God.
In fact, let’s go over it.
HOW GOD WORKS WITH HUMAN WILL
Catholic theology holds that God works with human will in two different ways: from the outside and from the inside.
God prepares the will: Even unbelievers can do what we call natural good—acts of kindness, justice, or sacrifice. This is possible because of what we call God’s actual grace. Also known as “the grace to act”. It’s a kind of help He gives that moves the will from the outside. (Calvinists would call this “common grace.”)
God regenerates the sinner: For believers, however, God not only moves the will from the outside but dwells within the soul. By the gift of faith and charity infused through the Sacraments, the believer’s actions become supernatural good—meritorious because they are joined to God’s own life within us (Romans 5:5: “God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us”).
So while unbelievers may do genuine good, the difference for a baptized Christian is that his or her good works flow from union with God Himself. They aren’t just good deeds; they are part of the life of grace, ordered toward eternal reward.
The bottom line is that the purpose of actual/common grace is to help you ladder 🪜 up to sanctifying grace, without which one cannot be saved. If at the time of death one does not possess sanctifying grace or this self-sustaining source of goodness, then one shall be damned. The reason why is because the external help of sanctifying grace is withdrawn at the moment of death and then comes the judgment.
So for example, notice how in Acts it says:
”At Caesarea there was a man named *Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2 He and all his family were **devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly.”*(Acts 10:1-2)
So there’s our setup.
This guy was “devout” and “God-fearing”.
Now let’s think about that—can you fear a God that you don’t believe in?
Of course not.
Scripture actually talks about that:
”And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.”(Hebrews 11:6)
So Cornelius had faith but it did not become “saving faith” until Peter came and preached the gospel to him.
We call this faith which exists but does not justify:
”IMPERFECT FAITH”.
Once Cornelius exhibited “saving faith”, the effects described in Ezekiel 36 kicked in(through baptism) and thus Cornelius experienced this “indwelling”source of sanctifying grace:
”…but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”(John 4:14)
I guess he could, but he isnt. The angels saw the full glory of god as well as the gift of eternity, knowledge of all things, timeless. And then they rejected it.
Imagine god personally visiting you, you KNOW he's god, you KNOW he's all powerful, and you reject him out of pride. There is no saving you. At the end of this theres an interesting question about angels and the amount of free will they have. They have to have some sort of free will, or they couldnt choose to reject him.
Angels have a “perfect will.” That is to say once they choose to either love God or reject God, they cannot change.
Because they cannot change, they cannot repent.
Humans have an “imperfect will.” Meaning we can change our minds and turn back to God or change them again and turn away from God. This means we have the ability to repent.
Only mankind was created with CHOICE. All other heavenly critters are programmed only ONE was found with flaw, and even his servants had no CHOICE but to turn with him. They are not capable of, nor would ever enter their souls/minds to repent and ask forgiveness. A can opener cant just decide it's a blender or change into one.
That's not entirely true. They rebelled against God which means they had some level of free will. Otherwise, they wouldn't of been able to choose anything other then what they were designed for.
One could argue that God stripped them of this after the war when he cast them down and that they don't have free will anymore, but I have a feeling they still do but just choose to continually stand in opposition to God.
In short God could forgive them but can they even accept forgiveness? I don't think they can or want to. I think they believe the evil they are doing as good, they believed it then and they believe it now.
Only ONE creature showed a choice: lucifer. We have zero evidence of any other apart mankind. Even lucifer's army had no CHOICE, they were 100% turned with him. not 70% or 50% or 43%
They were Gods creations and CHOOSE to follow Satan then remain in their original position under God authority. If there was no choice involved by the angels, then that means none of them are to fault for their rebellion because they were forced to do it.
Rebellion HAS TO BE A CHOICE.
Otherwise, it is Gods command. Theres his will and then there is Rebellion against his will. Theres no in-between.
"And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day" Jude 1:6-7
They left their positions and dwellings on purpose not because they were forced but because they CHOSE to follow in rebellion to God.
"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;" 2 Peter 2:4
Sin means to Miss the Mark, that means they chose to have aims contrary to him. If they had no choice then how could they of sinned ? If they were just mindless, choiceless robots then there would be no sin because they couldn't make any other choice.
The book of Enoch ( if you choose to believe it) which was widely respected by early Jewish and Christians (not saying it inspired but God knows) is quoted in the bible by Jude in 1:14-15, which was found with the dead sea scrolls ( that are over 2000 years ago, 1 century BC) goes into great detail about them choosing Satan in rebellion against God.
They made a choice.
Just like we have to.
Its the exact same choice we must all make in our hearts.
Nope, no subordinate angel has any CHOICE, they were MADE to follow their leader. There's a hierarchy, just like dogs will automatically follow pack leader
and Wolves.... they naturally elect a leader, they don't just follow him. They CHOOSE a leader based off of complex relationships. Its not just and most vicious and powerful become the top dog lol
"Alpha" idea is only seen when wolves are in captivity but in the wild. They have leaders based on age and ability not some over powerful forced dominance. In captivity wolves, dogs, cats and humans will often develop an alpha but not because they choose him but because they fear him. Like a Bully in a School. Hes not a bully anywhere else other than that one specific place where the system allows him to exist.
Anywhere else he gets his ass kicked.
Animals are creatures of God too my friend and they also make choices anyone with a pet can attest to this.
its derived, or inferred from what the bible says. satan and demons pre-exist mankind. Logically, since our JOB is to worship God (former lucifer's job) AND we have free will and CHOICE, and there is zero mention of redemption or saving lucifer, AND his final fate is clearly spelled out, do you see now why he hates us so very much. How he's a slave to defy and fight against God, going through us, His special beloved creation. WE can be hurt and killed, but God cannot be touched by satan
Eze 28:13-15 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. 14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. 15You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you.
This is not so special, WE are far superior creations, we are FAMILY. And yet, most of us will be lost; apparently necessary to produce "good" creations and family for God forever.
It’s interesting I had this question for years as well and someone described it as this. When we’re alive we have not yet stepped into the world to come in the realm of eternity. While we still breathe we have the opportunity to repent. Once that’s over and we pass on, we’ve lost that opportunity, the deed is done and we’re judged. Imagine rebelling in eternity where time and space are not defined or found. It’s over for them.
Interesting - the breath of Life, they never had it!
God explains this often. Satan and his angels knew God's glory, rules and more. They chose, knowing the truth, to rebel. On top of this scripture, including Book of Enoch, has God tell us and show us these fallen angels the second time they fall, and probably the first too, teach mankind all manner of evil. They use Heavenly Knowledge to teach how to make weapons for example and this leads to mass wars in and before Noahs time.
Add to this their offspring the giants, who become the demons when God kills them in the flood and their spirits are cursed and more.
They have no excuse. Imagine being an angel seeing God make Earth and more and you fight God and more? Us Humans are born into sin but God came to give us a chance to choose Him and life.
Consider this; Why did your guardian angel and mine and Michael and Gabriel not betray God? See? Angels knew the truth. Satan and his minions chose to rebel, and they naturally knew better than humans. No one forced them to do this and if you read Book of Adam and Eve, it claims Jesus gives Satan time to repent, literally in Heaven Jesus is saying stuff like," Please turn from this way of thinking."
If true, and even if not, it would mean Jesus even gave the devil chances to repent. The devil chose not to and faced the rightful fair consequences for his actions. God is good, amen.
Satan and his angels are not human. God has a separate plan for them, and there is not a lot said about what that plan is other than they will eventually be condemned to hell.
God's mercy and love is not infinite. To humans, God shows mercy and love now, but there will be a time where judgment comes and that mercy and love will turn to fury and wrath.
Too many people want to believe that God is all love, nothing but love, and will always be love, but that is far from truth.
I feel like your question is leading an answer. His mercy and love are not diminished by people or angels going to hell. A better question might be: are devils redeemable?
The comments to this thread that I see are missing one key component. I think we must first ask ‘what were the angels (and Lucifer) created for?’ Their eternal trajectory isn’t the same as ours because they were ‘built different’. They were given a specific task (messenger) that’s different than what we humans have, so why should their outcome be the same as ours?
Answers to that would be more telling, I would think.
Because Angels are different than us. They're highly intelligent and were well aware of the consequences of their decision to rebel against God. They did it anyway.
God's love is infinite. So is His justice.
They can be. The problem is that once they rejected God they lost access to the capacity to repent since that comes from God.
well people can reject God then return. think of atheists that convert. these answers kinda make sense and im sure satans pride wont let him repent, but i am failing to see how it isnt possible since infinite love and mercy means just that. infinite.
Yes, because those people do not see God face to face. Even if they reject God their rejection isn’t final since they lack complete and certain knowledge of God’s existence(as opposed to the angels). They still maintain access to what we Catholics call actual grace—which is facilitating their vacillating states of for/against God.
In fact, let’s go over it.
HOW GOD WORKS WITH HUMAN WILL
Catholic theology holds that God works with human will in two different ways: from the outside and from the inside.
God prepares the will: Even unbelievers can do what we call natural good—acts of kindness, justice, or sacrifice. This is possible because of what we call God’s actual grace. Also known as “the grace to act”. It’s a kind of help He gives that moves the will from the outside. (Calvinists would call this “common grace.”)
God regenerates the sinner: For believers, however, God not only moves the will from the outside but dwells within the soul. By the gift of faith and charity infused through the Sacraments, the believer’s actions become supernatural good—meritorious because they are joined to God’s own life within us (Romans 5:5: “God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us”).
So while unbelievers may do genuine good, the difference for a baptized Christian is that his or her good works flow from union with God Himself. They aren’t just good deeds; they are part of the life of grace, ordered toward eternal reward.
The bottom line is that the purpose of actual/common grace is to help you ladder 🪜 up to sanctifying grace, without which one cannot be saved. If at the time of death one does not possess sanctifying grace or this self-sustaining source of goodness, then one shall be damned. The reason why is because the external help of sanctifying grace is withdrawn at the moment of death and then comes the judgment.
So for example, notice how in Acts it says:
So there’s our setup.
This guy was “devout” and “God-fearing”.
Now let’s think about that—can you fear a God that you don’t believe in?
Of course not.
Scripture actually talks about that:
So Cornelius had faith but it did not become “saving faith” until Peter came and preached the gospel to him.
We call this faith which exists but does not justify:
”IMPERFECT FAITH”.
Once Cornelius exhibited “saving faith”, the effects described in Ezekiel 36 kicked in(through baptism) and thus Cornelius experienced this “indwelling”source of sanctifying grace:
Because they have made their decision and have been confirmed in it. They do not want His forgiveness.
I guess he could, but he isnt. The angels saw the full glory of god as well as the gift of eternity, knowledge of all things, timeless. And then they rejected it.
Imagine god personally visiting you, you KNOW he's god, you KNOW he's all powerful, and you reject him out of pride. There is no saving you. At the end of this theres an interesting question about angels and the amount of free will they have. They have to have some sort of free will, or they couldnt choose to reject him.
Because faith is impossible when you have first-hand knowledge. Truly blessed are those who have faith and have not seen.
Angels have a “perfect will.” That is to say once they choose to either love God or reject God, they cannot change.
Because they cannot change, they cannot repent.
Humans have an “imperfect will.” Meaning we can change our minds and turn back to God or change them again and turn away from God. This means we have the ability to repent.
Because He is as merciful and loving as He is just. He is not unjust.
Only mankind was created with CHOICE. All other heavenly critters are programmed only ONE was found with flaw, and even his servants had no CHOICE but to turn with him. They are not capable of, nor would ever enter their souls/minds to repent and ask forgiveness. A can opener cant just decide it's a blender or change into one.
That's not entirely true. They rebelled against God which means they had some level of free will. Otherwise, they wouldn't of been able to choose anything other then what they were designed for.
One could argue that God stripped them of this after the war when he cast them down and that they don't have free will anymore, but I have a feeling they still do but just choose to continually stand in opposition to God.
In short God could forgive them but can they even accept forgiveness? I don't think they can or want to. I think they believe the evil they are doing as good, they believed it then and they believe it now.
Only ONE creature showed a choice: lucifer. We have zero evidence of any other apart mankind. Even lucifer's army had no CHOICE, they were 100% turned with him. not 70% or 50% or 43%
They were Gods creations and CHOOSE to follow Satan then remain in their original position under God authority. If there was no choice involved by the angels, then that means none of them are to fault for their rebellion because they were forced to do it.
Rebellion HAS TO BE A CHOICE.
Otherwise, it is Gods command. Theres his will and then there is Rebellion against his will. Theres no in-between.
"And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day" Jude 1:6-7
They left their positions and dwellings on purpose not because they were forced but because they CHOSE to follow in rebellion to God.
"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;" 2 Peter 2:4
Sin means to Miss the Mark, that means they chose to have aims contrary to him. If they had no choice then how could they of sinned ? If they were just mindless, choiceless robots then there would be no sin because they couldn't make any other choice.
The book of Enoch ( if you choose to believe it) which was widely respected by early Jewish and Christians (not saying it inspired but God knows) is quoted in the bible by Jude in 1:14-15, which was found with the dead sea scrolls ( that are over 2000 years ago, 1 century BC) goes into great detail about them choosing Satan in rebellion against God.
They made a choice.
Just like we have to.
Its the exact same choice we must all make in our hearts.
Nope, no subordinate angel has any CHOICE, they were MADE to follow their leader. There's a hierarchy, just like dogs will automatically follow pack leader
and Wolves.... they naturally elect a leader, they don't just follow him. They CHOOSE a leader based off of complex relationships. Its not just and most vicious and powerful become the top dog lol
"Alpha" idea is only seen when wolves are in captivity but in the wild. They have leaders based on age and ability not some over powerful forced dominance. In captivity wolves, dogs, cats and humans will often develop an alpha but not because they choose him but because they fear him. Like a Bully in a School. Hes not a bully anywhere else other than that one specific place where the system allows him to exist.
Anywhere else he gets his ass kicked.
Animals are creatures of God too my friend and they also make choices anyone with a pet can attest to this.
Do animals have something Angels don't ?
Ok brother. We will have to agree to disagree.
They all had choice. They chose to reject God.
You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. (Ezekiel 28:15, 1984 NIV)
ive heard this. is it in the Bible?
its derived, or inferred from what the bible says. satan and demons pre-exist mankind. Logically, since our JOB is to worship God (former lucifer's job) AND we have free will and CHOICE, and there is zero mention of redemption or saving lucifer, AND his final fate is clearly spelled out, do you see now why he hates us so very much. How he's a slave to defy and fight against God, going through us, His special beloved creation. WE can be hurt and killed, but God cannot be touched by satan
Interesting. Are you inferring God had a flaw in his programmed creation then?
yes, it clearly says so:
Eze 28:13-15 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. 14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you.
This is not so special, WE are far superior creations, we are FAMILY. And yet, most of us will be lost; apparently necessary to produce "good" creations and family for God forever.
God never sent them a Saviour
They had God the Father, God the Son and God, the Holy Spirit!
None of which became full God and full angel to take their punishment upon Himself
Because God is also Just. He can't just forgive sins.