Like if God could send us to hell justly, do we have no right to call suffering unjust? Did the victims of genocide deserve it as we are all sinners? Do children who are bullied deserve it?
The thing, bad thing that happen to people do so not because we deserved them, but because we live in cursed world. Sure, none of us deserved heaven, it doesn't mean God wants hell for us. It's important. God doesn't want people to suffer. Otherwise he wouldn't send his Son to save us at the first place
To really hammer this home, people should read Job. His lost his wealth, his family, everything, and his friends came and tried to convince him that he deserved it because he did something to draw God's wrath. Finally, God comes and rebukes his friends, calling Job righteous, yet rebuking Job for not placing his faith in God that these things happened for a greater purpose than Job could comprehend.
Yes and no. Humanity chose to step away from God and because God is good, literally God IS everything good , sometimes in the world that rejected God, rejected all good bad things happen. It's logical. But no. People doesn't deserve to suffer because of their bad behaviour. Hell even is not really a torturing room. It's a place of separation. And suffering in hell is not suffering of a prisoner that being tortured by his executioner, it.is suffering of a man who've been separated from everything good and light.
Yeah i was told I deserved it after being sexually assaulted as a child and honestly it brings me comfort to see that they're right. No sarcasm. I'm just kinda glad it's that simple.
Not everyone directly deserves every injustice that happens to them, but generically all injustice is due to all sin, so we may as well say that we deserve it, and bear it up with a humble heart.
it is unjust because it is not God's way to be angry, but a reaction to this abomination that has drunken the world.
The lord never wished for any evil, it is not what he made, nor has it ever been meant to be.
Let the lord shine on you, he is willing, repent, humble yourself and ask him, for he alone is the reason you ask about what is righteous and good because he meant it to be the only way.
7Ā āAsk and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8Ā For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
May the glory of God shine through the holy spirit for you and through you.
Romans 5 talks about sin and death spreading even to those who had not sinned in the manner of Adam. For most of us, we are hostages to that first sin, and that's why Jesus says He became a ransom - to set us free. We are judged on what we do with the Light we have. We don't necessarily deserve all the evil that's in the world, but we do have to deal with it.
"For I know the plansĀ I have for you,ā declares theĀ Lord, āplans to prosperĀ you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." Jeremiah 29:11
"Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life." John 9:2
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28
The evil you speak of is not something God wants for anyone; it is a condition of this post fall existence that is manifest in the hearts of men.
You have to ask yourself what is the purpose of life? What is the purpose of this existence?
As far as I can see this "life" is a place where we can answer those questions for ourselves through trials and tribulations so that our souls and hearts may be reformed into the image of the almighty and image, we should of always been.
There is also evil done unto men ( and women) by other men ( and women) for the sake of evil and this is terrible and wicked thing that God despises. However this life is to complicated for us to understand or control and no matter how much you want to understand it , you cant because what happens here is too vast to be held by one mind and one heart. We are hear and this place is corrupted by evil and so we must accept that we must face evil while we are here or be overcome by it. Either way trying to understand WHY it is this way will not get you anywhere.
"When I applied my mind to know wisdomĀ and to observe the labor that is done on earthāpeople getting no sleep day or nightāĀ 17Ā then I saw all that God has done.Ā No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all their efforts to search it out, no one can discover its meaning. Even if the wise claim they know, they cannot really comprehend it." Ecclesiastes 8:16
You are conflating two different things. HELL is one's eternal home, because one CHOOSES to go there, AFTER rejecting the love and grace and mercy of God, repeatedly, throughout one's life. That's the destination for EVERYONE who does that, irregardless of creed, race, color or ethnicity. It's that one's unrepentant sins and lack of belief in Jesus Christ, DESERVE HELL, but one DOESN'T have to go there. As long as there's life, there's hope in Christ. Now regarding the evil events in this world: the succinct answer is that GOD doesn't "do" evil, it is IMPOSSIBLE, yes, impossible, the evil things that happen in life, is from Satan.
we deserve nothing. and remember, all the evil in the world is not from God. it is not HIS will, He allows it. God made a perfect world without sickness, death, pain, it was perfect. sinless. then sin entered the world and corrupted the perfect creation made, so now theres death, natural disasters, people get cancer.
God didnt create cancer. cancer is a result of sin and evil in this world. now imperfect things happen. and again, this is not Gods will, He doesnt enjoy watching us suffer, but He uses the evil to further His purpose and even gives us a solution. (how amazing is He) a promise that if we believe in Him ā all this destruction and death from sin stands no chance against a believer in Christ
I think I'm just rationalising God not stopping injustice by trying to remove the fact that an injustice happened (if we deserve evil, then things like cancer and murder aren't unjust and therefore God not stepping in is fine)
The reality God made has those on earth able to affect others on earth, sometimes radically so. So you can be greatly affected or even killed before being saved by the actions of others. This is fair if you think of us all as being a part of the family of (fallen) mankind. It is not fair if you compare causes and what effects they have on you.
But who wants fairness? I'd rather have God's undeserved forgiveness!
I accepted that I deserved a lot of bad things in my life because I had been disobedient to God, my parents, the law or whatever else decisions or choices or actions I made deserved consequences, and they did and I was okay with that. I chalked it up as discipline and learning experiences. But it was fair. Iāve always had a very strong sense of right and wrong and fairness.
But when I was 19 years old, trying to get a certificate to be a pharmacy technician to provide for my 6 month old out of wedlock baby as a single mom my life got flipped upside down.
I was the top student, and one of the older guys, a married man, who was nice, was failing. I offered to tutor him, help him catch up and study with him. He came to my house, met my baby, my family, ate with us and then we spent time studying. The next time about 2 weeks later, we were supposed to go to the library but on the way he said he forgot something and asked if we could just go to his apartment to study. I was young and naive and figured sure no problem. At his apartment he starts talking, and talking and I made attempts to start studying but he just kept talking about himself, his past, and then he got to a point where he told me about a man he had strangled to death with his bare hands. Oh yes, alarm bells were ringing in my head. I was terrified. I was terrified I would never see my baby again.
For the first time in my life I could not fight. I was too scared and I knew I couldnāt fight him off of me. He was much bigger and stronger. He raped me and the whole time I begged him not to. I told him I didnāt want to get pregnant again. But he would not stop. So I cried out to Jesus. And my mind went away.
He took me home after. My parents and brothers were at the hospital because my grandma had a massive heart attack and was in the ICU fighting for her life. So I picked my baby up from the lady who was watching him for me. Held him so tightly and actually rarely ever put him down after that.
I did not tell my family. I tried so hard to just go on but I could no longer concentrate and hated going to class. My A+ began dropping and I couldnāt seem to learn anything new.
A month later I began to suspect I was pregnant and I was. Iād not been with any other men so I knew whoās it was. My friend who was in class with me and I made a plan to get an abortion. I backed out thanks to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. I dropped out of school. My mother slapped me across the face and called me a lying whore when I told her and told her I was pregnant and wanted to put the baby up for adoption. I was still living with my family.
I didnāt deserve it. Not even a little bit. But the Holy Spirit reminded me that Jesus did not deserve what was done to Him either. He kept my faith in tact and actually increased it. He also gave me compassion and patience and kindness for people because sometimes really bad things do happen to people who donāt deserve it at all. I think it made me a better human. And He never left my side. I can see His hand in so many things.
Life isnāt easy, itās not promised to be, and itās not fair, but trust God. He will give you what you need when you need it most. I can testify to that.
By the way I am 49 now. My faith grows daily and I still suffer from things but Iāve always experienced so many good things and Iāve been so blessed. The rock solid faith, is by far the best gift.
If we all deserve hell, do we deserve all bad things that happen to us?
Yes, we deserve Hell and all of the bad things that happen to us in this life. It all started with the fall in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve, but the fact of the matter is we ALL fall short. The only one to come and live through this life in perfection is Christ. If you can't say the life you've lived looked like Christ's from the beginning to the end, then you've ultimately sinned which places you in the position of everyone else, being deserving of punishment for said sins.
God is gracious and paid our debts, so we ultimately don't get Hell as we technically deserve. And as for bullying, humans sinning against each other is just proof that God's way of life is superior and that sin is our only real enemy here. We can complain to God for issues based on sins humans are committing because nobody has to sin. It's ultimately our own fault as a race.
What would be the opposite of "deserving" these bad things you list?
I think answering that question will get you to the heart of the matter. If we "dont deserve bad", then we "deserve good"... which is a way of saying "we are owed good things".
It gets to the heart of the matter, which is that we are not owed good things, we are not entitled to them. Nevertheless, many good things come our way š¤·
What do you make of that? And does it change how we operate in the world, fundamentally, if we take the attitude that we "deserve and are owed good things"?
The thing, bad thing that happen to people do so not because we deserved them, but because we live in cursed world. Sure, none of us deserved heaven, it doesn't mean God wants hell for us. It's important. God doesn't want people to suffer. Otherwise he wouldn't send his Son to save us at the first place
Was gonna say more or less this!
To really hammer this home, people should read Job. His lost his wealth, his family, everything, and his friends came and tried to convince him that he deserved it because he did something to draw God's wrath. Finally, God comes and rebukes his friends, calling Job righteous, yet rebuking Job for not placing his faith in God that these things happened for a greater purpose than Job could comprehend.
Though He slay me, yet I will praise Him.
Yeah but like... if it's just for us to go to hell, it's also just for us to suffer, right? š¢
Yes and no. Humanity chose to step away from God and because God is good, literally God IS everything good , sometimes in the world that rejected God, rejected all good bad things happen. It's logical. But no. People doesn't deserve to suffer because of their bad behaviour. Hell even is not really a torturing room. It's a place of separation. And suffering in hell is not suffering of a prisoner that being tortured by his executioner, it.is suffering of a man who've been separated from everything good and light.
I heard it said once that all a person deserves was to die naked and alone in a ditch.
I could not disagree. We deserve nothing. That we continually receive Godās grace and mercy is the greatest gift.
We are told to glorify in our suffering.
Romans 5:3-5
. āNot only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance;
perseverance , character; and character, hope.
And hope does not put us to shame, because Godās love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to usā
Yeah i was told I deserved it after being sexually assaulted as a child and honestly it brings me comfort to see that they're right. No sarcasm. I'm just kinda glad it's that simple.
Not everyone directly deserves every injustice that happens to them, but generically all injustice is due to all sin, so we may as well say that we deserve it, and bear it up with a humble heart.
"Father, forgive *us* our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."
Does not corporate repentance inquire of even greater mercy?
Does it not keep us on the path of humility?
Amen and amen.
We deserve heaven, not by the merit of our own actions, that's the tricky part
Hi,
it is unjust because it is not God's way to be angry, but a reaction to this abomination that has drunken the world.
The lord never wished for any evil, it is not what he made, nor has it ever been meant to be.
Let the lord shine on you, he is willing, repent, humble yourself and ask him, for he alone is the reason you ask about what is righteous and good because he meant it to be the only way.
Matthew 7:7-8 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207%3A7-8&version=NIV
7Ā āAsk and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8Ā For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
May the glory of God shine through the holy spirit for you and through you.
Romans 5 talks about sin and death spreading even to those who had not sinned in the manner of Adam. For most of us, we are hostages to that first sin, and that's why Jesus says He became a ransom - to set us free. We are judged on what we do with the Light we have. We don't necessarily deserve all the evil that's in the world, but we do have to deal with it.
"For I know the plansĀ I have for you,ā declares theĀ Lord, āplans to prosperĀ you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." Jeremiah 29:11
"Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life." John 9:2
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28
The evil you speak of is not something God wants for anyone; it is a condition of this post fall existence that is manifest in the hearts of men.
You have to ask yourself what is the purpose of life? What is the purpose of this existence?
As far as I can see this "life" is a place where we can answer those questions for ourselves through trials and tribulations so that our souls and hearts may be reformed into the image of the almighty and image, we should of always been.
There is also evil done unto men ( and women) by other men ( and women) for the sake of evil and this is terrible and wicked thing that God despises. However this life is to complicated for us to understand or control and no matter how much you want to understand it , you cant because what happens here is too vast to be held by one mind and one heart. We are hear and this place is corrupted by evil and so we must accept that we must face evil while we are here or be overcome by it. Either way trying to understand WHY it is this way will not get you anywhere.
"When I applied my mind to know wisdomĀ and to observe the labor that is done on earthāpeople getting no sleep day or nightāĀ 17Ā then I saw all that God has done.Ā No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all their efforts to search it out, no one can discover its meaning. Even if the wise claim they know, they cannot really comprehend it." Ecclesiastes 8:16
The Ten Commandments were not suggestions. Follow them, and all is well. And no. No one deserves the bad things that happen.
You are conflating two different things. HELL is one's eternal home, because one CHOOSES to go there, AFTER rejecting the love and grace and mercy of God, repeatedly, throughout one's life. That's the destination for EVERYONE who does that, irregardless of creed, race, color or ethnicity. It's that one's unrepentant sins and lack of belief in Jesus Christ, DESERVE HELL, but one DOESN'T have to go there. As long as there's life, there's hope in Christ. Now regarding the evil events in this world: the succinct answer is that GOD doesn't "do" evil, it is IMPOSSIBLE, yes, impossible, the evil things that happen in life, is from Satan.
I see. Thanks
we deserve nothing. and remember, all the evil in the world is not from God. it is not HIS will, He allows it. God made a perfect world without sickness, death, pain, it was perfect. sinless. then sin entered the world and corrupted the perfect creation made, so now theres death, natural disasters, people get cancer.
God didnt create cancer. cancer is a result of sin and evil in this world. now imperfect things happen. and again, this is not Gods will, He doesnt enjoy watching us suffer, but He uses the evil to further His purpose and even gives us a solution. (how amazing is He) a promise that if we believe in Him ā all this destruction and death from sin stands no chance against a believer in Christ
I think I'm just rationalising God not stopping injustice by trying to remove the fact that an injustice happened (if we deserve evil, then things like cancer and murder aren't unjust and therefore God not stepping in is fine)
No. If something bad happens to you, fight back. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt6iTwVIiMM
The reality God made has those on earth able to affect others on earth, sometimes radically so. So you can be greatly affected or even killed before being saved by the actions of others. This is fair if you think of us all as being a part of the family of (fallen) mankind. It is not fair if you compare causes and what effects they have on you.
But who wants fairness? I'd rather have God's undeserved forgiveness!
Free will.
We deserve the wrath of God. Unless we do something unjust to another person, we don't deserve the wrath of humans. Does that make sense?
I see thanks
No, sin & the devil want to torture us but God only wants justice for our wrongs & blessings for our actions that submit to the will of Christ.
No, if you chose Jesus you will go to Heaven, and prove the blessings he has in store for us, his children.
In a sense yes.
I accepted that I deserved a lot of bad things in my life because I had been disobedient to God, my parents, the law or whatever else decisions or choices or actions I made deserved consequences, and they did and I was okay with that. I chalked it up as discipline and learning experiences. But it was fair. Iāve always had a very strong sense of right and wrong and fairness.
But when I was 19 years old, trying to get a certificate to be a pharmacy technician to provide for my 6 month old out of wedlock baby as a single mom my life got flipped upside down.
I was the top student, and one of the older guys, a married man, who was nice, was failing. I offered to tutor him, help him catch up and study with him. He came to my house, met my baby, my family, ate with us and then we spent time studying. The next time about 2 weeks later, we were supposed to go to the library but on the way he said he forgot something and asked if we could just go to his apartment to study. I was young and naive and figured sure no problem. At his apartment he starts talking, and talking and I made attempts to start studying but he just kept talking about himself, his past, and then he got to a point where he told me about a man he had strangled to death with his bare hands. Oh yes, alarm bells were ringing in my head. I was terrified. I was terrified I would never see my baby again.
For the first time in my life I could not fight. I was too scared and I knew I couldnāt fight him off of me. He was much bigger and stronger. He raped me and the whole time I begged him not to. I told him I didnāt want to get pregnant again. But he would not stop. So I cried out to Jesus. And my mind went away.
He took me home after. My parents and brothers were at the hospital because my grandma had a massive heart attack and was in the ICU fighting for her life. So I picked my baby up from the lady who was watching him for me. Held him so tightly and actually rarely ever put him down after that.
I did not tell my family. I tried so hard to just go on but I could no longer concentrate and hated going to class. My A+ began dropping and I couldnāt seem to learn anything new.
A month later I began to suspect I was pregnant and I was. Iād not been with any other men so I knew whoās it was. My friend who was in class with me and I made a plan to get an abortion. I backed out thanks to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. I dropped out of school. My mother slapped me across the face and called me a lying whore when I told her and told her I was pregnant and wanted to put the baby up for adoption. I was still living with my family.
I didnāt deserve it. Not even a little bit. But the Holy Spirit reminded me that Jesus did not deserve what was done to Him either. He kept my faith in tact and actually increased it. He also gave me compassion and patience and kindness for people because sometimes really bad things do happen to people who donāt deserve it at all. I think it made me a better human. And He never left my side. I can see His hand in so many things.
Life isnāt easy, itās not promised to be, and itās not fair, but trust God. He will give you what you need when you need it most. I can testify to that.
By the way I am 49 now. My faith grows daily and I still suffer from things but Iāve always experienced so many good things and Iāve been so blessed. The rock solid faith, is by far the best gift.
I'm so sorry to hear of such a horrible thing. This comment almost made me cry. I'm glad that your faith remained firm.
Yes, we deserve Hell and all of the bad things that happen to us in this life. It all started with the fall in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve, but the fact of the matter is we ALL fall short. The only one to come and live through this life in perfection is Christ. If you can't say the life you've lived looked like Christ's from the beginning to the end, then you've ultimately sinned which places you in the position of everyone else, being deserving of punishment for said sins.
God is gracious and paid our debts, so we ultimately don't get Hell as we technically deserve. And as for bullying, humans sinning against each other is just proof that God's way of life is superior and that sin is our only real enemy here. We can complain to God for issues based on sins humans are committing because nobody has to sin. It's ultimately our own fault as a race.
I guess I did deserve to be groomed as a young kid then (not sarcastic)
What would be the opposite of "deserving" these bad things you list?
I think answering that question will get you to the heart of the matter. If we "dont deserve bad", then we "deserve good"... which is a way of saying "we are owed good things".
It gets to the heart of the matter, which is that we are not owed good things, we are not entitled to them. Nevertheless, many good things come our way š¤·
What do you make of that? And does it change how we operate in the world, fundamentally, if we take the attitude that we "deserve and are owed good things"?
I would say it does.
I see
Your idea of "justice" doesn't really matter.
Just as a 3 year old crying, "That's not fair!"
Nah I'm not complaining, just trying to better understand how evil works ig