They said that they can get in Heaven as a joke because they follow Jesus's teachings more better than Christians and if you said that works cannot save you then they will reply with a Bible verse
James 2:24 “So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.”
This got me thinking that we keep risking our salvation because keep sinning consistently everyday. Or the Bible is contradicting itself again:
Titus 3:5 “he saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins, giving us a new birth and new life through the Holy Spirit.”
I'm really having a hard time trusting the Bible at this point and I might just well consider myself I'm going to Hell anyway just in case Jesus says He doesnt want to be with me and those words will no longer hurt me because I'm prepared for it
It’s understandable to feel that way. We all stumble and wonder if God’s grace still holds us, especially when verses seem to say opposite things. But Christianity teaches that salvation depends on God’s mercy, not our performance. Titus 3:5 reminds us that Christ saves by grace, not by works. James isn’t contradicting that, he’s saying real faith naturally produces good works as evidence of life in Christ.
We still fail daily, yes. But the good news is that the same Savior who began the work of salvation promises to finish it. Our sin is strong, but His mercy is stronger.
Daniel. This is proper biblical teaching here
Real faith doesn't naturally produce good works as evidence. It would take free will out of the equation, we'd all be robots and nobody would ever sin again. I strongly disagree. Let me give you some examples.
King David, nobody doubts that he is saved, as God deems him as the man after God's own heart. God used David's genealogy to bring us Jesus Christ, there's no doubt he is saved.
When he set eyes on Bathsheba, he first Matthew 5:28'd her, and then he commits actual adultery with her. Where was the evidence of his salvation then?
What about when he went to cover up his adultery, he sent his most loyal servant Uriah to die in the toughest part of the battle. Where was the evidence of his salvation?
What about when Tamar was raped by Absalom, his son raped his daughter, David did nothing about it. Where was the evidence of his salvation?
What about when he numbered the tribes of Israel and caused tens of thousands of people to die? According to that "works is evidence of salvation", he wouldn't do that right? If he was "really saved" right?
Let's take the example of Lot, this guy... a lifetime refusal to commit himself to God, for his whole entire life. He pitched his tent toward Sodom, lived in Sodom, and then when God destroyed Sodom he had to have his angels drag him out. He brings out booze from Sodom, gets drunk and lays with his two daughters to create two evil nations in Moab and Ammon, and then he dies in a cave. Real righteous right? There was no documentation in the bible that Lot did ANY good work for the Lord. But 2 Peter 2 declared him "just" and "righteous". Luke 17 Lot was depicted as a picture of the rapture. Yeah, he's saved, did nothing for the Lord. But still saved.
It is a very dangerous line of thinking because it makes people doubt: "well, I don't feel like going to church, I don't feel like reading the bible, I don't feel like doing XYZ for the Lord." Am I really saved?
So at that point, you're looking at the fact that you're doing these works in order to justify yourself. You become the most important one in the equation, it's no longer Jesus. Faith is what justifies you (Romans 3:28), without the deeds of the law, it's something you cannot see, only God can see your heart and whether you truly 100% trust him.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things NOT SEEN
Hope you see where I'm coming from.
I thumbed up your comment—shocking anyone has a problem with it. Attempts to justify oneself with works “are sin”—whereas God using your works for justification are not sin—but rather it is grace.
So was Lot "living in sin" as one would say? Yet he was still saved? I ask this from a place of conviction after much weeping. I do not mean to offend or sound arrogant. Or to rebuttal. I truly pray, and have been trying to believe in the Lord alone 100%. I just fear I am not being "obedient" or doing what I am supposed to. Though I try my best and I really know I am using my whole heart. I feel a lot of attacks in my mind, and am learning to test the spirits, so to speak. I am learning to trust in the Word of God, and His character more than my thoughts. So many voices between osas or you have to do your part but it just seems to be impossible. I have tried both ways but I cannot take my heart out of the fight to seek the truth. Of course I don't advocate for sin and hate what it does in this world, but I can't help but feel that God is clearly greater than all that and is in ultimate control though we still have a free will. I hope this makes sense.
"For the Lord knows our frame, He knows that we are dust."
David was a real, “Game of Thrones” kinda guy. King Saul asked David for 100 foreskins from Philistines as an offering to marry Saul’s daughter..
He instead killed two hundred Philistines and brought King Saul twice what he asked. He got the girl, but.. yeah, gross.
For some reason each time in my mind’s eye I see David stringing the body parts on a vine or something, kinda like a necklace. (This part isn’t scriptural, just my imagination.)
We have to remember Saul was demon possessed, mental, or just plan insane. But, David seemed a bit happy killing when not needed for his end game.
Jesus was from the lineage of David, so there you go. God did favor David although he wasn’t what we think of as someone that found favor from God.
@u/Top_Initiative_4047:
No, that was not James’ point. His point was not:
—his point was that Abraham’s faith was working alongside👈 his works👇:
If your takeaway from James 2:21-22 is that “faith naturally produces works” then you’re reading something into the text that isn’t there.
You CAN say this:
But you CAN’T ✋say this:
To say one thing is “working with” something else is not the same as saying:
That’s causal language.
For example, I can say:
But I cannot say:
Those are massively different statements.
u/Leather_Sea_711
u/Daniel_J07
Sigh the catholic lies and misunderstandings never seem to cease eh?
Your understanding of James is sad, inconsistent, and incomplete.
Ive said it before and Ill say it again… join the protest against the lies of the catholic church.
Once saved you become a slave to righteousness and cannot do anything other than grow in faith. Therefore yes, true faith ALWAYS yields good works.
Romans 6:15-19
[15] What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! [16] Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? [17] But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, [18] and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. [19] I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
Protestants do be so bold speaking of things they don't know so little and read so much without comprehension but still spreading it.
Ill await your refutation of Salvation by grace alone through faith in Christ alone. I’ll be here forever as it is a doctrine impossible to refute given any refutation would be against scripture.
Ephesians says we are saved for works not by them, it is by faith alone. We cant boast about something God did, which is saving us.
James is digging into the discussion of liars, or people who falsely profess faith. If you actually read James’ letter it’s abundantly clear that he is explaining how if you have real faith there will be works to back it up. If you are a pretender, or one just claiming to have faith, there will be no works to show for it… those without works have no faith… you cant show faith without works.
Romans explains that those who are saved are now slaves to righteousness and will 100% grow in faith otherwise you are actually still a slave to sin, we call this sanctification.
Jesus discusses this topic as well when he is explaining forgiveness. You are not a follower of God if you cannot and wont forgive your neighbour. People who claim to be followers of God and dont forgive… they are liars who are not actually saved.
John 6 discusses how those who are saved will never be let go of.
Revelation says that the elect have been chosen BEFORE the world was even created.
It’s a nice try by the Catholics to lead people away from God, but the lies from the council of trent are not hidden to those with eyes and ears. Faithful believers run from catholicism, rightly so.
Cheers tho! Hopefully you too will join the protest of the deceitful ways of the catholic church, God willing.
Hallelujah 🙌🙏
1 Peter 5:8: Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
Seems like youre ready to drop your guard. Dont let the enemy devour you. The fruits of the enemy are despair and hopelessness
Sometimes Atheists sound right all the time
Yeah I can see that happening. Atheists like to rely on “science” and “logic” to explain away God but logic and science are from God. If you dwell in His word you’ll find all of the answers
There’s no such thing as an atheist. There are only anti-theists. All men know they are created, they just deny the glory to the Creator out of disdain for the nature of reality.
It’s like someone looking at the Sistine chapel and saying “no one made this. It just appeared.”. They would look and sound insane. They don’t like the way the world is, they blame God for all that’s wrong.
I hate this common view because it basically says "Youre a liar" to atheists, and we should respect each others views even if we think the each other is stupid
When I was an atheist I genuinally did not believe in god. I was not secretely tsundere for him, I never had "but what if they are right" thoughts in my head or heart period. I believed it was all lotto, given enough time eventually everything will happen, that was my reasoning and its honestly not that far fetched with some theories, stuff like "premordial soup" and "god" require both equal faith
I only believed in him when he himself gave me pretty personal evidence and saved my earth life in a way, but it did not open up some secret faith in me
[deleted]
You are right. I can't defend my faith against Atheists
Sounds like a personal problem. - Former atheist
Regardless even at the time of judgement, it is still only by God‘s Grace that we are saved nothing we do will ever make up for what God has done for us. Keep the faith, marathon not a sprint
God’s grace is shared here on earth while we all fall short of the glory of God many times over and it’s his grace that still forgives us no matter how many times we’ve already failed. Asking for forgiveness and the name of Jesus Christ again and again and again and receiving forgiveness is God’s grace. After death, there is no more grace because while we are in the spirit, we will know 100% of all truth and just like Satan and his demons who knew 100% of all truth they were unable to get God‘s grace.
Dude, if you could lose your salvation, you'd lose it. You're not good enough to gain it, neither are you good enough to keep it.
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
No man can take you out of his hand.
You salvation is secure so long as you get into and stay in his hand.
Don't look back
If one still lives in sin he still needs to undergo the spiritual rebirth (what jesus said to nicodemus). This starts with repentance - ie having a contrite heart.
A slave (to sin) does not abide in the house for ever (ie no salvation). Jesus said this in john 8 to encourage us to be set free from sin by him.
Keep persistent and bring these questions to Jesus in prayer.
When we get saved Jesus comes into our heart as a tiny seed, which creates a new clean heart in the midst of our old, sinful heart. As we walk with Jesus and repent of our sins, we get more of his Blood that nourishes the seed in our New Heart. We also must feed upon the Word. Gradually the New Heart grows and the incorruptible seed starts to form Jesus' store of truth within us. This power within is what enables us to overcome sin & do good works. It's all about Jesus' power in us.
When we fail to repent we don't lose our salvation. We just miss out on opportunities for growth, and learn the hard way what not to do. This is all part of God's plan for us.
Our salvation could never be based on our righteousness. But only the righteousness of Jesus Christ. We are complete in Him, but without Him we are nothing. That's why Jesus said "I live by my Father, and you live by me. Unless you eat my flesh & drink my blood you have no life in you." This is speaking not only of communion, but also of feeding on Jesus the word made flesh, and partaking of his Blood through sincere repentance.
No. You cannot loose it no matter what. Salvation is believing on Jesus alone that He is God, died, and rose again for you.
Lie.
Back up your claim then.
Salvation is not a prison sentence. You can choose to forfeit your own salvation by the choices you make in life.
CHRISTIANS (those truly "saved to begin with") CAN:
You’re confusing salvation with fellowship, and standing with experience. None of the verses you listed describe a born-again person losing salvation. Every one of them describes believers drifting, stumbling, being deceived, being unfruitful, losing reward, or coming under discipline, but not one of them says a justified person becomes unjustified or a child of God becomes unborn. Jesus said in John 5.24 that the one who believes has everlasting life and will not come into condemnation and has passed from death unto life. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 11.32 that God judges believers now so they will not be condemned with the world. Discipline proves salvation, it does not cancel it. Hebrews warns professing believers in the community who never trusted Christ, not regenerate people losing eternal life. Second Peter 2 is about false teachers who were never saved. First John 5’s sin unto death is physical death, not loss of salvation. Galatians 5.4’s “fallen from grace” is falling out of the sphere of grace into legalism, not falling out of salvation. None of these texts overturn Jesus’ direct promise that His sheep will never perish and no one will pluck them out of His hand. Eternal life cannot be temporary. Sealing cannot be undone. Justification cannot be reversed. If salvation can be lost, then Christ’s finished work was not finished, His promise was unreliable, and eternal life was never eternal. Your list collapses because it confuses spiritual maturity with salvation itself. The Bible never teaches you can forfeit what Christ already paid in full.
By choice u can loose your salvation. Salvation is not a prison sentence. You can be blotted out of the book of life by your choices.
Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
And if you don’t wanna believe what’s in written in the Bible about losing of salvation, then of course that is your choice. It’s only in there as warnings. There’s a reason why the narrow path there’s only a “ few” that find it. It takes major sacrifices of people, relationships, situations, and environments that a lot of people don’t want to do.
You are treating salvation like a lease you can walk away from, but the Greek text treats it like a birth, a sealing, and a completed legal act, not something you can hand back if you change your mind. When Jesus said in John 5.24 that the one who hears and believes “has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life,” the verbs matter. “Has” is echei in the present tense, real possession now, and “is passed” is metabebēken, perfect tense, a completed crossing from death into life with continuing result. You cannot choose to uncross that once God has done it. In John 10.28 He says “I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish,” the Greek is ou mē apolōntai eis ton aiōna, the strongest possible negation, “they shall certainly not ever perish.” If my salvation depends on me continuing to hang on, then Jesus’ promise is false the first time any believer falls away.
Matthew 24.13 does not say what you are trying to make it say. The Greek is ho de hypomeinas eis telos, houtos sōthēsetai, “the one who endures to the end, that one shall be saved.” In context Jesus is talking to His Jewish disciples about the tribulation in Judea, fleeing when they see the abomination of desolation, false Christs, and physical survival in those days. “Saved” (sōthēsetai from sōzō) is used all through the New Testament for physical deliverance as well as eternal salvation. Reading Matthew 24 as “you keep yourself saved by hanging on hard enough” flatly contradicts John 6.39 where Jesus says “this is the Father’s will, that of all which He hath given Me I should lose nothing.” Either endurance proves who truly belonged to Him, or Jesus fails the Father’s will. It cannot be both.
Your use of Revelation 3.5 also ignores the Greek. Christ says “I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,” the phrase is ou mē exaleipsō, again the strongest possible negation, it is a promise of security, not a threat. Elsewhere that same book is called “the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” and names are written there from before creation, not penciled in and erased every time someone struggles. If God can mistakenly write a name and then erase it, His foreknowledge and purpose in Romans 8.30 collapses, where those He foreknew He also predestined, called, justified, and glorified, all in the same unbroken chain. Paul even says nothing “in all creation” can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8.39. Unless you are not part of creation, your own will cannot break the bond God Himself created.
The long list of warnings you quoted proves something very real, but not the loss of salvation. Departing from the faith, drifting, falling, being hardened, even physical death for sin, all show that believers can wreck their testimony and come under severe discipline. First Corinthians 11.32 says “when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.” Discipline now so that we will not be condemned then. Hebrews warns people who are around the truth and tasting its blessings not to turn back to law and unbelief, but those who are truly Christ’s are described as “perfected forever” in Hebrews 10.14, teleiōken eis to dienekes, perfect tense again, and “having boldness” by the blood of Jesus.
If salvation can be lost by choice, then “eternal” life is only provisional life. If names can be blotted out after being written from the foundation of the world, God’s decree is uncertain. If Christ can lose those the Father gave Him, then He failed the Father’s will. The Greek of the New Testament will not support that. It presents salvation as a finished payment (tetelestai, paid in full), a new birth, a sealing by the Spirit, and a promise that those who truly come to Christ will never be cast out. Your “endure or lose it” view might sound serious and strict, but it makes every one of those promises unstable and turns grace into a contract you have to keep up instead of a salvation Christ already accomplished.
So you’re telling me that a person who is saved, then chooses to go to witchcraft and worships Satan is still saved. When this is their choice to do this.
Or a person who is saved goes off to murder, thousands of people is unrepented, wears is a cross around their neck, that person is still saved?
Or a person who thinks they were saved at 10 years old, lived a life of sin and all of worldly pleasures and is now 80 years old is still saved from their choice at 10 years old?
If you don’t think Christians cant actually end up in hell, then you’ve been blinded by everything. Just because somebody says they’re a Christian doesn’t mean they actually are. God‘s grace comes through repentance. And a change of lifestyle. But for the Christian, that is greedy, murderous, sexual immoral, fornicator, and a liar, and all the other lists of who will not inherit the kingdom of God :doesn’t play a part or matter because they believe in Jesus, keeps a person just blind.
1 corinthians 6:11-13 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 12"Everything is permissible for me"-but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"-but I will not be mastered by anything. 13"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"-but God will destroy them both The body is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
I’m not the one that wrote the Bible I’m just referring to what is written. And I’ve listed so many verses about what is written and you still want to think that your salvation is eternal no matter the choices you make in your life. once saved, always saved is the doctrines of demons.
i guess we can both find out in the end. Many blessings on your path.🌿
I know for a fact that your examples do not disprove eternal security because I personally did one of the very things you listed. As a saved person I actually engaged in witchcraft. I hated it while doing it, I knew it was wrong, and yet I still did it. Even in the middle of it I knew I was one hundred percent saved because my salvation never rested on my behavior. It rested on Christ alone. The conviction I felt was not proof of losing salvation. It was the clearest proof that I already belonged to Him. An unsaved person does not feel that kind of grief. They enjoy sin and defend it. A saved person fights sin even while falling into it. That is exactly what Romans 7 describes.
Your entire objection still confuses salvation with behavior. The Greek text does not treat salvation as something you maintain by consistency or cancel by inconsistency. When Jesus said in John 5.24 that the believer has everlasting life, has is echei, real possession in the present. When He said is passed from death unto life, it is metabebēken, perfect tense, a completed crossing with permanent results. A birth cannot be undone. The Spirit’s sealing in Ephesians 1.13 is sphragisthentes, a completed act done by God, not reversible by human failure.
Your extreme hypotheticals about witchcraft, murder, or someone living wickedly for decades do not overturn what Scripture says about justification. Romans 4.5 says God justifies the ungodly, asebē, and that happens the moment someone believes. If salvation were based on the level of transformation afterward, then David would have lost salvation after adultery and murder, Solomon after idolatry, Peter after denying Christ, and the Corinthian believer in 1 Corinthians 5 would have been condemned instead of restored. Scripture says the opposite. Believers are judged now so they will not be condemned with the world. That is 1 Corinthians 11.32. Discipline, not damnation.
When someone plunges into deep rebellion, the Bible never assumes they were saved and lost it. The Bible says they were never His to begin with. First John 2.19 says they went out from us because they were not of us. Jesus says in John 10 that His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. He did not say they follow perfectly, but that they remain His because He holds them, not because they hold Him.
Your question about a ten-year-old professing faith and living in sin for seventy years proves that point. If there is no conviction, no discipline, no desire for Christ across a lifetime, then that person was never born again. Eternal security does not mean every childhood profession was real. Eternal security means that the moment the real new birth happens, it cannot be reversed.
So yes, a saved person can fall into horrific sin. I am living proof of that. The presence of conviction is proof of salvation, not the loss of it. Eternal life cannot turn into temporary life. Sealing cannot be undone. Justification cannot be reversed. If salvation can be lost, Christ’s perfect tense verbs, the Spirit’s sealing, and the Father’s will all collapse. The Bible does not allow that. Salvation, when it is real, is permanent.
Okay. Repenting matters and really having faith matters. There is no sin that God will not forgive a person for Gods Grace is infinite, and there is nothing new under the sun. And everybody will find out in the end.
Be well on your path.🌿
The story of the prodigal son, he left and spent his inheritance on the world only to find out that it wasn’t worth it then he went back to the father, who was waiting for him with open arms, gave him a robe and his crown back
It's a bunch of "free grace" nonsense.
Ephesians 2.8–9 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 4.5 (KJV) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Yes. But not in the way you're thinking. Think of it more like forfeiting salvation.
To give an example. Say you're following the faith rightfully. And every now and then temptations gets to high and you fall into sin but then you repent each time.
Your salvation wasn't in risk in this scenario. As it's clear your heart is for God even though you committed sins every now and then.
But let's say you were following the faith rightfully but then decided on keeping a sin, saying there is nothing wrong with this sin and you continue to do the sin without repenting.
Here you did forfeit your salvation. As at that point your heart wasn't for God.
Salvation isn’t yours to lose, it’s Christs to give. The Author and finisher of our faith. If salvation could be lost then every single professing believer would lose it.
So if a Person is saved. they can then live a life of sin and still be saved?
They won’t want to. That would give valid reason to doubt they’re saved. No human can pay for their sin. Only Christ can pay for sin. He doesn’t give eternal life only to take it back again. Thats not the gospel, that’s works based. The entire process of coming to Christ by grace through faith, sanctification then glorification, begins and ends with Christ. He will see us through and none who are saved will be lost.
If you live a life of sin and feel un-phased, then where is the chastening promised to those He loves?
How bad of sins?
Like if they recite the Filioque every Sunday and are unrepentant about it?
Oh no. Straight to hell for that. Doesn't even have to die, they skip that part and go straight there.
Kidding aside, my point is, we have no way to know the threshold of how much unrepented sin we can have before we are consigned to the fire.
Everyone has unrepented sin. Everyone.
I have no doubt that there are things I do that I I don't think are sin but really are.
But that isn't what's in question here.
that is why, in the sacrament of confession, we are forgiven of ALL sins, of knowledge and of ignorance,. God isn't a lawyer pouring over the books trying to find a technicality of the ONE thing we forgot to repent over...
Wrong. You cannot forsake your salvation. There is no way to forsake your salvation. Once you are saved, you are always saved.
So if a Person is saved. they can then live a life of sin and still be saved?
Did Jesus pay for some sin? or all sins? past present future, right?
Does God know your life from beginning to end? He knows you're gonna sin afterwards right? Is that cover under the blood?
You sin prior to salvation and you sin after you are saved. We are still in the flesh after we are saved. You can be a serial killer rapist and still be saved. You can commit all sins and still be saved.
so then what's the point of christianity? all you have to do is say you believe in jesus then continue murdering or raping people and you'll still be saved.
what an odd religion you believe in. which doesn't match the bible at all.
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Not just say it vainly, but mean it truly. I don’t have a religion, I don’t participate in traditional sacraments. Salvation and behavior are not the same category in Scripture. The Bible teaches that salvation is a legal declaration based on Christ’s finished work, not a reward for moral improvement. When a person believes the gospel, God justifies them. The Greek word is dikaioō which means to declare righteous in a courtroom sense. That status does not fluctuate because Christ’s righteousness does not fluctuate. Second Corinthians 5.21 says God made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. That is not partial righteousness. That is a permanent legal standing.
Can a saved person still sin? Yes, because the flesh does not get redeemed yet. Paul says in Romans 7.18 that nothing good dwells in his flesh. That is why believers can fall, struggle, mess up, and even do terrible things. It does not mean God approves of sin. It means salvation is not maintained by sin management. If salvation depended on how much sin you avoided, then salvation would be by works, not by grace, and that contradicts Ephesians 2.8 and 9.
As for your objection that someone could believe and then go commit horrific crimes. Of course that is wicked, and God will discipline His children severely for it. Hebrews 12.6 says the Lord chastens every son He receives. But discipline is not loss of salvation. Salvation is a birth. You cannot be unborn. Jesus said in John 10.28 that He gives eternal life and His sheep shall never perish. Eternal life is not temporary life. If someone could lose it, then Jesus was wrong.
It’s not really wrong, it is written that your name can be blotted out of the book of life (rev 3:5)
And a human can choose after being saved not to be saved anymore. It’s not a prison sentence.
CHRISTIANS (those truly "saved to begin with") CAN:
Your entire argument collapses because you’re mixing two completely different categories: standing and state. Salvation is a legal standing based on Christ’s finished work, not on the believer’s daily state of faithfulness. Every verse you listed describes believers drifting in experience, fellowship, fruitfulness, reward, or falling under discipline, not believers losing justification. Scripture never once says a person who has been born of God becomes unborn. It never once says someone sealed by the Spirit becomes unsealed. It never once says someone given eternal life receives temporary life instead. In fact, Jesus said the opposite in John 5.24. The believer has everlasting life, shall not come into condemnation, and is passed from death unto life. Perfect tense, irreversible. Your verses describe Christians failing, wandering, sinning, ruining their testimony, being disciplined, even dying early under judgment, but not losing salvation. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 11.32 that believers are judged now so that they will not be condemned with the world. The purpose of discipline is to prevent condemnation, not to cause it. Hebrews 6 and 10 describe those who reject Christ’s sacrifice as their only hope, not born again people losing salvation. Revelation 3.5 does not say names are blotted out; it promises the opposite. Christ says He will never blot out the name of the overcomer. And 1 John 5.16’s sin unto death is physical death, not loss of eternal life. Not one verse you listed overturns Jesus’ own words. Eternal life cannot end. Sealing cannot be undone. Adoption cannot be reversed. Justification cannot be overturned. If salvation can be lost, then Christ’s promise is a lie, His blood is insufficient, His sealing is temporary, and eternal life is not eternal. That is why OSAS is not optional. It is the only position that does not contradict the gospel itself.
How about Atheists who followed Jesus rightfully and didn't sin at all daily unlike Christians. Would Jesus like that better than Christians do?
Do atheists believe in God?
No but they follow God's teachings. I think it doesn't matter whether they believe in God or not
God's teachings involve believing in him. The first commandment is literally love God.
So if an atheist doesn't believe in God then obviously they don't love them and thus it cannot be said they follow God's teachings.
Yeah. If you're literally choosing to reject Him, it doesn't matter how much good you're doing because you're choosing to be away from Him for one reason or another.
Jesus said “no one comes to the Father except through me”. That is exclusionary language and means one must believe and put their faith in Him for salvation.
Stalin was a hell of a Christian /s
Yeah. You're right about the 'hell" thing
"“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment."
take that verse as a thought experiment: All your heart, All your soul, All your mind.
So, if you're not loving God with ALL your heart soul mind, then you are violating the commandment. Meaning you are in sin.
But how many people live 100% in the spirit and love God with 100% of everything they have? Nobody. All have sinned, and they everyone needs salvation.
That is literally the one thing that matters
Sin is followed rightfully when decisions are made by the impositions of fear -- is an atheist someone who has fear?
Ok, but if you want to actually know what the Bible says about salvation, just ask.
Context is important, read the chapter to see how James defines "Works"
Is it really that He doesn't want to be with you, or is it that you don't want to be with Him?
It's not too late for you to consider your ways.
You're shown to be right with God by what you do -- you can see it being true for people on different levels and in different ways, it's not only faith alone that can show you. Faith alone is not the only way you can have your salvation and your reconciliation. It is not a singular because the truth isn't a grave stone, the truth is alive, and if you want nothing more than just faith alone that's good enough, and if you want to notice it in the qualities of the most subtle kind in your every day life you can have that too because it starts to remake your mind and your actions become assertions of the truth.
The only person’s faith and works that justify salvation is in the faith and works of Christ alone. The faith and works of others are a result of what Christ had done and of who he is and says who you are.
Hebrews 11:1 says that faith is that assurance from hope and evidence of what was done when we could not see it done.
" Let us therefore FEAR, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.". Hebrews 4:1
" And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in FEAR:". 1 Peter 1:17
You need to fear God hard enough to act right
Saying the Bible contradicts itself “again” implies a previous instance of “contradiction” that is usually based on people’s personal interpretations as to what exactly they think qualifies as a contradiction.
Furthermore, Titus 3:5 is a simple statement that God saves us as an act of His own free will, not on the basis of what is owed. This has no interaction whatsoever with understanding what destroys our salvation and what doesn’t—that’s an entirely separate topic. We Catholics refer to that topic as the mortal-venial distinction.
Suffice it to say that not every sin threatens one’s salvation and therefore, ”no”, one’s salvation is not “at risk all the time” unless one is committing mortal sin “all the time”. Thus such a statement is highly subjective and intrinsically involves some nuance(i.e; for person A it might be at risk all the time and for person B it may never be at risk at ANY time).
No once saved always saved.
Reveal your bias much?
James 2:24 “So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.”
Titus 3:5 “he saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins, giving us a new birth and new life through the Holy Spirit.”
This is not a contradiction. James says very clearly works is what righteousness is based off of NOT what salvation is based off of. You are using salvation and righteousness as the same thing and they are not because of Christ's work on the cross.
James is right, if I want to be righteous on my own I need to do works.
Paul is right, if I want to be saved, by not my righteousness, but Christ's, I need to have faith in him. Then his righteousness will be imparted to me by his works.
Here’s a condensed list of logizomai’s core definitions, distilled to the most essential meanings from lexical sources(LSJ and BDAG) for the sake of brevity:
1. To Calculate Meaning: To count or tally numerically. Source: LSJ, A.I; BDAG, 1.
2. To Consider Meaning: To think or reason about something. Source: LSJ, B.I; BDAG, 2a.
3. To Judge Meaning: To evaluate or assess as true. Source: LSJ, B.II; BDAG, 2b.
4. To Credit Meaning: To attribute or impute a quality/status. Source: BDAG, 3; LSJ, A.II.
These four capture the primary semantic range—numerical, rational, evaluative, and attributive. Now, having established that, we see the word “logizomai” translated as “credited” or “reckoned” in Romans 4:3 where Paul says:
Protestants view salvation as static. If logizomai means God “credits” Christ’s righteousness externally, salvation is a done deal at the moment of faith. Think of it like “snow” covering over a ball of “dung”. The believer’s status is secure—righteousness isn’t theirs to lose because it’s Christ’s, imputed to them. This supports the idea that salvation, once received, remains static and eternal.
Catholics view salvation as dynamic. If logizomai reflects God judging an infused, innate righteousness, salvation hinges on maintaining that state through faith, works, and grace. In other words, if I do a deliberately unrighteous thing…then God is going to see that for what it is and declare that I have become an “unrighteous” person.
If you read the full context (Romans 4:19–22), you’ll see why Abraham was considered righteous:
In short, God saw Abraham’s living faith and called it righteous—not because something was swapped behind the scenes, but because of who Abraham was becoming through faith.
This fits with how scripture consistently speaks of righteousness—as an actual, Spirit-filled quality. For instance, in Numbers 27:18, we read:
God doesn’t merely declare people righteous on paper. He fills them with His Spirit, transforming them into people who walk in His ways. In fact, Paul’s use of logizomai elsewhere also reflects this meaning of mental recognition or moral assessment—not legal imputation:
EXAMPLE FROM SCRIPTURE: KING DAVID
Even before David became king, God called him “a man after His own heart” (1 Sam 13:14). That mirrors what Scripture says about Abraham, who was credited with righteousness by faith (Romans 4:3). This tells us plainly: David was already justified—he had eternal life.
The faith that justified both Abraham and David wasn’t something they generated themselves. As Paul writes:
So the faith that justifies is itself a gift—not a human accomplishment. Just like faith, repentance is not a work of man—it too is a gift from God:
This will become important later when we examine what David did after sinning. After becoming king, David committed murder by arranging the death of Uriah. And Scripture says:
That means David lost eternal life—he was no longer justified. He had fallen from grace.
In Romans 4:6–8, Paul quotes David’s own words from Psalm 32, saying that God justified David apart from works. But this doesn’t mean David did nothing. It means that David’s restoration to righteousness wasn’t earned—it wasn’t caused by any work originating in man.
Remember, we already noted that scripture says repentance is not a human work—it’s a divine gift.
In Psalm 32, David describes how he was burdened with guilt until he finally repented—and then God forgave him:
So David wasn’t justified by “faith alone” during the year he remained unrepentant. It was only after his repentance, prompted by grace, that he was purified and restored. 1 John 1:9 confirms the pattern:
That’s exactly what happened to David: confession, forgiveness, purification—not because of his merit, but because of God’s mercy in response to repentance. David still had faith during the year he remained silent about his sin (Psalm 32:3–4). But faith alone didn’t restore him. It was faith + repentance—the kind of “work” that God Himself gives (Acts 11:18)—that led to his justification.
So yes, justification is by faith, but not by faith alone. That’s why Scripture says:
IN CONCLUSION
Yes, one does have to keep the commandments in order to be saved but there is some nuance, as minor infractions do not destroy justification or “sanctifying grace”:
On the other hand, mortal sin will destroy one’s justification unless one repents:
Thus human cooperation is necessary for salvation.
The Bible says you cannot lose your salvation. Jesus says this of believers in John 10:28: “I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.”
Christ's judgment of man is nuanced and based on each individual's circumstances. Salvation is a transformative process, guided by the Holy Spirit, but yes it is possible to turn away from God at any time, even after accepting the Gospel and repenting, you are not forced to follow God.
Remember, it is not works that save, but rather Christ's sacrifice, but Christ only offers salvation to those who come to him in earnest, which requires repentance. The works do not save you, but rather testify to your faith in Christ, who makes us righteous. Unfortunately some think that works not making a man righteous means you're given a free pass to sin without consequence, which is absolutely not true.
The new testament Bible doesn't contradict itself it clarifies and supports itself. Many people might be at risk of judgement of they don't have a deep relationship with God. I don't serve God to ensure my spot in heaven. I serve God because God is good and his ways are better. I love God because he loves me. I respect God because he is worthy of respect.
These questions about salvation and what it takes to make it to heaven will become unimportant once a person has a personal relationship with God and is filled with his spirit. The Bible says many times that the spirit is our guarantee. So those who have the spirit of God know that they are going to heaven. The Bible says " there is no longer any condemnation for those who walk according to the spirit" this means people who have surrendered their lives to God and the spirit of God directs their choices.
The majority of Christians are probably still figuring out their relationship with God and that's okay. For many people it takes years. I was a Luke warm Christian for over 10 years. Some people may ask " what if you had died during that time"? Only God can answer that question. But the point is to not focus on salvation and whether or not you are saved. The point is to continue to grow closer to God,no matter how close you think you are currently. Paul said " not that I have already attained,but I press forward towards the upward call in Christ"
There might be a finish line but unless you are certain you are about to die,it's best to not focus on that. " Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added to you" . That scripture is actually talking about material things but there are many scriptures that tell us to focus on God and his righteousness instead of our mortality and what will happen afterwards.
Just keep pressing in and your faith and self confidence will continue to grow. That's all anyone can do. Doesn't matter if you came to God yesterday or 20 years ago. We all must CONTINUE in our faith. It's not a one time decision. It's a daily choice.
Risk?
Salvation is grace by faith not of works - meaning, works don’t justify us to be saved but faith in Jesus’ blood does as we believe upon our hope, Jesus Christ, our High Priest and apostle of our faith, who has passed within the veil, and intercedes for us on our behalf.
We are then patiently awaiting the manifestation of substance and evidence, the end of our faith, the salvation of our souls. Whereby faith without works is dead, we then are bearing fruit worthy of repentance as works justify our faith and make it perfect.
As God works in us to will and do according to His good pleasure, let’s work out our salvation in fear and trembling. We have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins; walk in the light as He is in the light and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from sin.
We’re not interested in willful sin as there’s no longer sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking to of fiery wrath and indignation that shall devour the adversaries. We’re not servants of sin but of righteousness and our salvation is jeopardized because the servant of sin abides not in the house forever but the son of God is an heir of God and joint-heir of Jesus Christ.
We’re not confounded, nor in confusion, nor are we perplexed. Continue reading the Bible by faith, trusting in Jesus for understanding and believe we shall have it. Don’t give up! Keep going and let’s not live our lives to give Jesus a reason to depart us from Him.
Let’s increase in the knowledge of God through bible intake and we will have understanding.
who are 'they?'
Bro Jesus wants you are you kidding me. Just because you struggle in faith or you sin or you question him or whatever flaw you have he still wants you and loves you. It’s a lie from the pit of hell to say he doesn’t love you or care for you that version of Jesus you have in your head is not him at all. You are not an exception no matter how much you think you are. I think you just need to root yourself in his love for you man, don’t fear about salvation you already have it. Perfect love casts out all fear (1John 4:18) start studying and learning about his love for you instead, you will find that his word is bleeding with passion for you.
My understanding is this… Faith without action is empty, and actions without faith are equally empty. Those who are truly saved will have both.
Those who sincerely have the Holy Spirit will be motivated to show God’s love in external ways. You cannot love your neighbor and abide their suffering—you act to care for loved ones. When Jesus divides the sheep from the goats, he will divide them based on how they treated the least of these, not by how much faith they had in him being the son of God. To be a true follower, you must actually follow teachings. To be a faithful servant, you must do the work that has been assigned. This is why Christians know each other by the fruits of the spirit: you cannot actually have the Holy Spirit in your heart if you never produce its fruits.
However, this isn’t some “fake it until you make it” situation. You cannot trick God into thinking you have faith or the Holy Spirit by doing good works to earn praise and rewards/salvation. You must be sincerely motivated to help others because you love them, and genuinely endeavor to follow Jesus.
So, I don’t think our salvation is constantly at risk, but I think it’s easy for us to assure ourselves we’re super good with God just because we believe in him a whole bunch and have (mostly) avoided doing sinful things. Loving people is difficult. Learning how to master the worst of ourselves so we can actually show love to others is hard. Risking constant rejection from the people we want to save is painful. Having patience and temperance with those who lash out at us is frightening. It’s so much easier to simply think it’s fine as long as we say we believe then tell other people they should believe just like us. Yet we are warned the false prophets will also believe they proclaim Jesus as lord, and they will also insist they did works in his name, but will have never actually known Jesus (Matt 7:21-23).
My advice is to worry less about if you’re saved, and worry more about if you actually understand Jesus’ expectations.
No, the only case would be if you were to deny your salvation completely. Jesus gave us our salvation to hold onto, but we can't drop it or give it up.
I guess they have never read Matthew 7:21-23
"21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’
Have you ever consider to take some years to study salvation? Request from God to help you understand what salvation means.
How could I forget
"I'm really having a hard time trusting the Bible at this point and I might just well consider myself I'm going to Hell"
This tells me you still lack revelation about what God says about salvation and you also lack understanding of Godly love. It would be better you start shutting voices that is not God, so that you can put more of your time seeking God directly for explanation of what He means.
Holy Spirit is a far better teacher than a human being.
Huh? What do you mean?
I've chatted with OP before, he's having trouble understanding Jesus' ministry towards humankind.
No - watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYazW9Kzvxs
Amen, I don't know how people can read through Romans 3, especially verses 20-28 and still think their works has anything to do with salvation. That whole passage points all to Jesus, all him, through him, chapter 4 he continues to beat it in like you've posted.
I especially love Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by FAITH, WITHOUT the deeds of the law. That's a mic drop moment.
The deeds of the law are not a part of the equation, at all.
Amen!
Perhaps reading Augustine will help you see “why” they “still think” that.
St.Augustine exegetes Romans 3:28, saying:
“When St. Paul says, therefore, that man is justified by faith and not by the observance of the law [Rom. 3:28], he does not mean that good works are not necessary or that it is enough to receive and to profess the faith and no more. What he means rather and what he wants us to understand is that man can be justified by faith, even though he has not previously performed any works of the law. For the works of the law are meritorious not before but AFTER justification. But there is no need to discuss this matter any furthe, especially since I have treated of it at length in another book entitled On the Letter and the Spirit.”(St.Augustine, Faith and Works)
Luther scoffed at St.Augustine’s understanding, saying:
But this perfectly explains what James is saying in James 2:24(i.e; ”not by faith alone”) and what Paul wrote in Romans 2:13 about the “doers” of the law being justified.
If you wake up every day and go to work to make money, you learn your job so you can do better right? No matter what anyone says otherwise trying to change it, you still do what is required to keep your job, move up in position and make a better life, right? After years of it, you retire with a large pension and retirement that was earned with hard work and obedient discipline, correct?
So why is a relationship with JESUS any different? Why are His guidelines, rules and way of living any different? Especially when your Father owns the company, so losing isn't an option if you just stick to his understanding. Life gets better, you understand and see things clearer, no matter who opposes it , and the retirement is beyond anything this world could ever offer!
So ponder on that , and ask yourself that several times and compare the reality of it. Why settle for less that doesn't last or truly benefit you anywhere other than this world, when you can choose the right path of truth and life we were created to walk in the beginning, with an ending beyond comprehension before a lying, murdering ,thief betrayed that innocence , and still doing it today, only more easily . Satan is only as strong as you allow him to be. He will enhance your doubts by preying on your weaknesses, always sweetening the pot until you give in. Making you feel out of place in his world, but why fit in when you were created to stand out with so much more.
So don't accept it, put your faith in Jesus and make a stand and keep your job. Otherwise he will get you fired in a heartbeat and then hell begins. So when he hits you in the face, hit back with the power of the 1 who he is terrified of !
"If you want to place me in hell, then do so, only do not let me lose your love!"
-St. Porphyrios of Kafsokalyvia
James 2 is a book end to Paul’s point in Romans 3. Your faith will produce fruit. The fruit will be an evidence of your faith. Some of that fruit will be works you’re doing for God’s Kingdom and it will bring you joy.
Jesus says in John 6 that no one can come to Him except those the Father calls to Him, and that He will raise them up on the last day. He also says in that chapter that of those the Father gives Him, He will lose none.
Remember that Jesus’ work on the cross was complete and full. He said Tetelestai. It is finished. If we could lose our salvation, I don’t think anyone would make it. Hebrews also says that Christ can’t be re-crucified, so if you could lose your salvation, there no sacrifice left for you based on that verse, I believe. As believers, we shouldn’t even want to test if we can. We should be seeking to grow in the Lord and pursue Him. He’s amazing!
Another point. The Bible says in Philippians 1:6 “And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.”
God will complete the work in you that He started. Rest in that. Sanctification is God’s work in our lives. We have to follow and obey.
No, that was not James’ point. His point was not:
—his point was that Abraham’s faith was working alongside👈 his works👇:
If your takeaway from James 2:21-22 is that “faith naturally produces works” then you’re reading something into the text that isn’t there.
You CAN say this:
But you CAN’T ✋say this:
To say one thing is “working with” something else is not the same as saying:
That’s causal language.
For example, I can say:
But I cannot say:
Those are massively different statements.
Meanwhile, here is St.Augustine exegesis of Romans 3:28:
“When St. Paul says, therefore, that man is justified by faith and not by the observance of the law [Rom. 3:28], he does not mean that good works are not necessary or that it is enough to receive and to profess the faith and no more. What he means rather and what he wants us to understand is that man can be justified by faith, even though he has not previously performed any works of the law. For the works of the law are meritorious not before but AFTER justification. But there is no need to discuss this matter any furthe, especially since I have treated of it at length in another book entitled On the Letter and the Spirit.”(St.Augustine, Faith and Works)
Luther scoffed at St.Augustine’s understanding, saying:
But this perfectly explains what James is saying in James 2:24(i.e; ”not by faith alone”) and what Paul wrote in Romans 2:13 about the “doers” of the law being justified.
I think the big thing there though was the faith itself, which he demonstrated by his actions. His willingness to do God’s command demonstrates his faith to God.
There’s a precedent for this established in Genesis 15 and Romans 4. From the start we’re seeing that righteousness comes through faith and not works of the law or adherence to it. Paul warns against this in Galatians and stresses this point emphatically. Romans 3 as well.
My fear is we run dangerously close to, if not actually creating a contradiction to interpret it the other way.
Admittedly, I’ve struggled to reconcile the two teachings and I saw a video with RC Sproul a bit of time ago and he explained it the way I was, if I remember correctly. I’ll post the link below.
I appreciate your insight on this. Very well broken down and explained.
https://youtu.be/-HMb9YjRq8Q?si=M8Xx8FFulLzsPcAe
Yes, that’s perfectly fine but if you start saying:
—then that isn’t supported by the text.
What “causes” one person to do one thing or another is that person’s free will. They might be doing something because they believe it’s what God wants them to do but it’s always them personally causing that thing—or rather co-operating with the Spirit to do that thing.
Yes, that’s fine. There is no error in that statement.
Yes righteousness comes through faith but it also comes through faith-based works. We see this in the example of Phinehas.
You see, in Numbers 25, Israel fell into idolatry and sexual immorality with the Moabites. When an Israelite man publicly brought a Midianite woman into his tent, Phinehas, the grandson of Aaron, acted zealously for God: he took a spear and killed them both, stopping the plague God had sent on Israel.
Psalm 106:30–31 reflects on this:
“But Phinehas stood up and INTERVENED, and the plague was checked. This was CREDITED to him as RIGHTEOUSNESS for endless generations to come.” (Psalm 106:30–31)
So now we have a problem for Sola Fide.
Protestants will generally try to explain this passage a couple of ways.
This is what we call an adhoc argument. Nothing in the passage itself clarifies that Phinehas’ justification was with respect to the “covenant only” and to be honest I’m not even sure what that even means.
”What Phinehas did was an act of faith!”
This one always tickles me—because no one disagrees that it was an “act of faith”. That’s not what the problem is. The problem is the SEQUENCE of the crediting. The passage doesn’t say:
“Then Phinehas believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness; and afterward, out of that faith, he rose and intervened, and the plague was stayed.”
Or more plainly, in the “Reformation” idiom:
“By faith Phinehas was justified, and his faith was shown genuine when he intervened; thus his deed was the fruit of the righteousness he had already received by faith”.
Thankfully the actual explanation isn’t that difficult to grasp, it just can’t be grasped in the Protestant framework.
For the solution, we just need to turn to Matthew 17:20…
“…if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”(Matthew 17:20)
So that’s all you need. A “mustard seed sized faith” and God, by means of His grace, can accept your imperfect faith for justification. Just as God can accept “imperfect faith” for justification by the means of His grace, so too can He accept “imperfect works” for justification on the very same basis.
No need for adhoc Protestant explanations that go no where.
Avoid Sproul, I’ve already caught him in contradictions with respect to justification. I’d be happy to elaborate further if needed.
I appreciate YOU actually reasoning through it.
Here’s a good talk about this by RC Sproul
https://youtu.be/-HMb9YjRq8Q?si=orVwEKYM0yBZt8CI
If by “good” you mean it exposes Sproul’s poor handle on justification, then yes. During the interview Sproul says:
”…he’s(James) saying real faith naturally produces good works as evidence of life in Christ.”
I have already explained why that falls apart here👇:
What those watching this interview with Sproul aren’t’ aware of is where in his book he admits:
This is Sproul admitting:
—and that should end the discussion right there.
But let’s just go ahead and reconcile these two apostles.
Paul often uses “works” to mean sinful acts or self-reliant deeds:
And:
That’s why elsewhere Paul says:
Paul was saying that Abraham never committed “works of the flesh” for salvation or justification. Also notice where James says:
You see here James is talking about a different kind of “works.” He’s talking about “good works.”
Thus:
VS.
That’s the way we reconcile Romans 4:2 and James 2:21.
Very simple.
BUT WHAT ABOUT ROMANS 4?
To be thorough, let’s wrap up that little loose end.
Let’s look at Romans 4:6-8.
Here again Paul uses the word “works” and says that David “says the same thing” about being justified by faith “apart from works”….only when he actually quotes David…he(David) talks about “sin” not works:
You see sin” is a kind of “work” that you *do. David called it “sin”. Paul called it “works”. They were talking about the same thing: SIN. In Romans 6:16 Paul notes that sin is a form of slavery. Now look at what he says to the Galatians who sought justification through works👇:
He then follows up in Galatians 5:4, noting that those who take on the “yoke” of the Law—the yoke which is sin, have “fallen from grace”.
So that’s it.
That’s how we reconcile James and Paul and it leaves no wiggle room for Sola Fide.
If you enjoyed this then see my other post here:
—and here:
Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling
There are over 80 passages in the New Testament that warn Christians not to lose what they have in Christ. Most go ignored by churches today.
• Passages like Hebrews 6, Hebrews 10, Romans 11, 2 Peter 2, James 5 clearly teach that genuine believers can fall away and forfeit salvation.
• Jesus himself warned his disciples that only those who endure to the end will be saved (Matt 24:13).
• The Sermon on the Mount is for Christians and is not an unattainable standard, as some claim. Jesus expects his followers to live out his teachings.
• Future sins are not automatically pre-forgiven when a person first believes. Ongoing repentance and confession is necessary (1 John 1:9).
• Salvation is by grace through faith, not by works. But saving faith will necessarily produce good works and a changed life. Faith without works is dead (James 2).
• Believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit, but this seal can be broken. We are warned not to grieve the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30).
• John 10 does not teach unconditional security, only that no external force can snatch believers out of God's hand against their will. Believers can choose to leave.
• The "golden chain" of Romans 8 is not an unbreakable sequence. Many are called but few chosen (Matt 22:14). The justified must live by faith (Rom 1:17).
• Romans 7 is not describing Paul's Christian experience but his former state under the law. Romans 6 and 8 make clear we can have victory over sin.
• The fear of the Lord is still relevant for believers' salvation and sanctification according to the NT. It keeps us from playing games with sin.
• Holiness and a victorious Christian life are possible through the power of the Holy Spirit, as the early church demonstrated even under persecution.
• Grace teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness (Titus 2:12). Walking in the Spirit enables us to overcome the desires of the flesh (Gal 5:16).
• Repentance means changing your mind resulting in a changed life, not just feeling sorry. Turning from sin to Jesus Christ.
• Believers can have assurance of salvation but this is not the same as unconditional security. We must continue in faith. Our standing is in Christ alone.
• God hates sin but gives us free will to choose. If we fall away, the responsibility is ours alone. His grace is sufficient if we persevere in faith.