It’s that time of year again, and while I know it’s not even Thanksgiving yet the debate is already starting!
Christmas: that time of year when Christians the world over celebrate the incarnation of Jesus Christ! Or His birthday?
Or is it a commercial holiday based on pagan saturnalia practices during the winter solstice that was too difficult for pagans to give up so the church just decided to slap a Christian sticker on top of it to get them to show up to the building?
Is Santa the beloved good ol’ St. Nick, the guy who gave to the poor, performed miracles and (allegedly) punched Arius in the face (in a holy way) to get him to repent at the council of Nicea? Or is he an anagram for Satan, deflecting the attention of the holiday off Jesus and created by Coca-Cola to sell soda (or pop, for all you midwesterners in the US)?
Whatever your opinion is, whether it’s a tradition of God or a tradition of men, this is the place to air it out, because you won’t be allowed do it in the main sub.
I like to imagine the stereotypical Santa Claus yelling at Arius calling him a heretic.
Arius POV
👋🎅
It’s even funnier to imagine the stereotypical Santa Claus punching Arius.
Santa Claus is about to give Arius the Old Saint Nick Haymaker.
"'Santa' is an anagram of 'Satan!'" dudes when they learn what 'saint' or 'holy' is in other languages:
Santa Maria! Proof Mary worship is satanic /s
Hallelujah the saviour is born!
Raised with Santa. Beat up a kid in elementary school because I knew satan was real. Confronted my mother who finally admitted she lied. My siblings and I chose to make Christmas about Jesus and not have santa be part of it.
But it is crazy how both Jesus holidays has a secular replacement for him.
I think you meant, "I knew Santa is real", but it's funny to imagine that you beat up a kid because he said the devil isn't real.
lol
In that case MERRY CHRISTMAS! Hope yall get loads of presents 🎁
SNOWS FALLEN DOOOOWWWNNNN
I wasn't on the sub at this time last year, but I think I can understand why this would be needed. Thank you for all that you do and I hope that everyone has a happy upcoming Christmas season if they celebrate.
Wes Huff on Christmas as a pagan holiday
Always have been disciplined to wait until after thanksgiving to put up the tree but I have it up now and it’s very nice and it brings me a bit of joy
Us Midwesterners are weird lol
Also nice Megathread
Glory to God for all good things! Christmas time is a time of so many good things. Especially the birth of our savior into the world to save us from death and sin. Let us celebrate all our Christmas traditions, but always keep Christ in mind throughout the entire season. Glory to God, and have a Merry Christmas!
Posting this helpful expansive summary by historian Tim O'Niel:
Pagan Christmas, Again
Coca Cola has a pretty good claim at inventing the modern image of Santa Claus
Not gonna argue with that in the slightest. As for the origins of Santa Claus, however...
I remember at the age of seven finding out Santa was not true. Talk about a very personal meltdown. I loved that guy, not only because of the gifts or presents but his happy and joyous nature. His fight for principles of good and bad, right and wrong, just disappeared. It was all a lie. I began to question everything right and wrong, why people lie especially those you count on and love. I even started questioning whether God and Jesus even existed, maybe it was all a lie too.
I must admit that even though that difficult time in childhood the Spirit of God still held tight though all the tears and questions. It never left me even after turning from it for awhile. It showed me in such a gentle way that it was necessary for me to understand the silent workings of things we can't see or understand. That sometimes the truth is not in what we see but what we don't see.
I love how Christmas can be both a celebration of Jesus and a fun time with family and friends. For me, it’s nice to enjoy the traditions while remembering the real reason for the season.
Can't wait for Christmas! I celebrate it as the unofficial birthday of Christ, since I don't know the actual day he was born! My family never did Santa growing up, so I don't either, but it's a fun tradition.
You can't just follow or celebrate whatever it is that you want to follow or celebrate. You need to follow what the Father commands. In the Holy scripture, those are the appointed feast days. There is no where in the bible to allow man to add to a holy day in the form of a pagan converted day to celebrate the birth of Jesus. Read Mark 7. When man put his own slant on things, it doesn't end well as the Golden Calf incident clearly shows.
https://www.growingchristians.org/devotions/the-subtle-sin-of-syncretism
Christmas is a celebration of the incarnation of Christ regardless if it started out as a Christian holiday or a pagan holiday baptized as Christian. I prefer Saint Nicholas/Sinterklass/Father Christmas over modern Santa as the three are more mythical.
Either way, I think Christmas is good even in a secular sense as it encourages community building and family time. In an increasingly hyper commercialized rat race world, I appreciate that holidays like Christmas still exist as cultural barricades allowing people to relax. I still don’t think positively of the holiday becoming so commercialized (decorations being sold before Halloween).
I think I would have far less of a problem with the idea of choosing to celebrate the birth of Christ—at the wrong time of year and on a day that has nothing to do with His birth but holds serious pagan worship significance—if those same professing-believers who are so committed to championing Christmas observance were just as fervent about observing the holy (feast) days God has commanded His people to observe.
It just makes no sense to me that a Spirit-led child of God would so zealously “celebrate” the manmade-tradition holidays that are not even mentioned in Scripture but not observe the feast (holy) days that are—and which even Christ and the first-century AD church comprised of both believing Jews and believing Gentiles observed, such as Passover [Ezekiel 36:26-27, 1 Corinthians 5:8].
Advocating for the observance of manmade holidays while ignoring or even scorning the observance of God-ordained holy days that He expressly instructs His people to keep seems exactly like the kind of unscriptural stance that was the object of Christ’s strong rebuke in Mark 7:6-9.
If the argument for believers celebrating Christmas is truly about Christ, why not be just as excited about and promote the observance of the scriptural feast days, too, since they also are all about Him?
A lot of Christians do celebrate the Feast days. I don't celebrate halloween or easter. But my question to you is why are you so opposed to Christians celebrating the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ even on an incorrect day when it is the ONLY time of year when even secular people can openly hear about Jesus Christ? When it is the ONLY time of year when Christians can profess our faith in market places, on corners, at work without political or secular pushback? When Christians can tell people the Gospel of Jesus Christ and how their lives have been changed? The backdrop is Christmas but it is written--“Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven." Matthew 10:32. I encourage people and have for years to let this alone. It is dangerous to tell people to not celebrate their Lord and Savior. In my opinion only, I don't believe that my Father in heaven Whom I love, adore, revere and sacrifice and the only Father I've ever known, would be angry with any Christian spreading the TRUTH about His Son and our King during this season. There will be a time (as end days approaches nearer than ever) when it will no longer be allowed, even ridiculed, mocked, scourged and forbidden. For now, let our brothers and sisters around the world in Truth and Spirit worship the LORD and His coming to earth to save all of mankind. Glory be to God in the Highest and our heartfelt gratitude for sending His Son to us, defeating death and hell which he nailed to the cross, forever, Amen.
First off, I never once suggested or even intimated that people…”not celebrate their Lord and Savior.” My comment quite plainly states that it is the manner in which they do so with which I take issue, based upon the Word of that very Savior God.
Since your argument seems to center upon the idea that the manmade Christmas holiday is a time to be a witness to the unsaved world about Christ and the gospel, I am wondering why you are not one of the believers who celebrates the feast days—which are all about Christ and, compared to Christmas, provide seven times the opportunity to testify of Him to the unsaved throughout the year…Thus, your argument comes across as entirely disingenuous to me.
Furthermore, since we are all (presumably) indwelt by the one Spirit of God, why would the Spirit lead only some believers to love and worship Him by obeying His righteous instruction to keep the feasts? [Ephesians 4:4] Why would someone who professes to “love, adore, revere” our Savior God and (I assume) desires to be like Him not follow His example to us and walk as He and His disciples did—in humble, reverent obedience to His commandments and keep the feast days? [John 13:15, 1 John 2:26]
I also disagree with your Christmas is the “only time of year when…” assertions, as believers are charged with sharing our personal testimonies and the gospel with the unsaved regardless of and without special notice of or care for the current “secular” season, patiently enduring all manner of “pushback” whenever we share our faith, publicly or otherwise. Many believers are regularly mocked and ridiculed for spreading the truth about Christ but boldly do so anyway, as the Spirit leads.
The thing is, we are not to worship the Lord according to our opinions or personal preferences as to what that should look like. And that you do not believe He would be angry with (so-called) worship that violates His explicit commands tells me you are unfamiliar with the Leviticus 10 passage that details how He dealt with two men who presumptuously attempted worship of God in a way He did not command but as they wanted to. Spoiler alert…He immediately killed them with fire.
It is a fact that nearly all of the customs and traditions of Christmas can be traced back to pagan religious rites. That you would quote John 4:24 in defense of worshipping God in a way that violates His commands is puzzling because worshipping “Him in spirit and in truth” entails doing that which aligns with His commandments/Law, as that is what Scripture calls truth [Psalm 119:142].
The one true God we serve is a jealous God. And because He knew the religious customs of the pagan nations would be attractive to His people, He explicitly warned us to reject all of them. He made it clear that He would not accept any pagan religious traditions, even if done unto Him [Deuteronomy 12:1-4, 29-31]. We are called to be separate ourselves from the unsaved world, to be holy and distinct, recognizable as different. And advocating for—a.k.a. teaching—and practicing the observance of a manmade tradition/holiday while ignoring the keeping of God’s commandment to observe His feast days seems a straight-up witting defiance of Christ’s words in Matthew 5:19, that we are to keep even the “lesser” commandments, and an example of the (idolatrous) practice He warns against in Mark 7:7-9.
I didn't read all of your post as it is way too long. You disagree, fine. Goodbye.
Your comment was long, too, and yet I chose to treat you as I would like to be treated and read it in its entirety before responding, despite your disagreement with my precious comment [Luke 6:31]. Why do you call Him Lord and not do as He says? [Luke 6:46].
And my comment is not just for your benefit, so no worries ;) I wish you well.
Neither was mine. No worries indeed.
For those like me who celebrate the feat of St. Nicholas. What traditions do you have?
We usually do those little gold coins in the kids shoes. I also tell the older kids the legend of St. Nick punching Arius in the face. And thanks to OP now I will add "In a holy way" to that story :)
For Christmas we go to Mass. Then we eat, drink, and be merry with tons of family.
We do the same.
B.
It has never made me an impact but is a festive season nevertheless
Christmas is a concept that we as Christians celebrate everyday, The basis of the day is the beginning of our faith. If people don’t se our faith in action Decembe 26-December 24, what we do December 25 won’t really matter.
I love the story and lessons of Santa Claus. Fairies, Frosty, Elves, Mickey Mouse, Nancy Drew, and so many other fictional/mythical characters. Again, I think it’s how rest of life is handled that determines if teaching Santa Claus is lying or problematic.
I was in Israel in the fall of 1988 - Nazareth, Capernaum and the Sea of Galilee, Bethlehem, and Jerusalem. When you are on the Mount of Olives where Jesus wept, or at the birthplace in Bethlehem, or in the Garden of Gethsemane, it is very real, solemn, and blessed.
I guess I "celebrated" Christmas for real that year.
A lot of Christians do celebrate the Feast days. I don't celebrate halloween or easter. But my question to you is why are you so opposed to Christians celebrating the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ even on an incorrect day when it is the ONLY time of year when even secular people can openly hear about Jesus Christ? When it is the ONLY time of year when Christians can profess our faith in market places, on corners, at work without political or secular pushback? When Christians can tell people the Gospel of Jesus Christ and how their lives have been changed? The backdrop is Christmas but it is written--“Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven." Matthew 10:32. I encourage people and have for years to let this alone. It is dangerous to tell people to not celebrate their Lord and Savior. In my opinion only, I don't believe that my Father in heaven Whom I love, adore, revere and sacrifice and the only Father I've ever known, would be angry with any Christian spreading the TRUTH about His Son and our King during this season. There will be a time (as end days approaches nearer than ever) when it will no longer be allowed, even ridiculed, mocked, scourged and forbidden. For now, let our brothers and sisters around the world in Truth and Spirit worship the LORD and His coming to earth to save all of mankind. Glory be to God in the Highest and our heartfelt gratitude for sending His Son to us, defeating death and hell which he nailed to the cross, forever, Amen.
Everyone go listen to Wolves at the Gate's EP Lowborn right now!
I recently had a conversation with a family member about Adventist claims regarding Christmas. I feel like, a lot of times, no amount of historical evidence will ever be enough because it's not about the evidence, but about identity and certainty
I'm not even sure I want presents this year. In general, I can get everything that my family can buy already. I'm excited to give stuff, but I mostly just want to spend time with my girlfriend because I expect this Christmas to be really hard for her because her dad died last year on Christmas Day.
It’s interesting that a tradition that is so celebrated in our culture is the topic of debate at all or that we don’t know the origin lol
It's very well documented. Just search youtube. PLENTY of scholars and pastors give an historical account of the origins of pagen rituals and celebrations that were integrated within Christianity, thus going against scripture about NOT mixing the holy with the profane. The entire old testament documents the Israelites constant rebellion against God and who thoroughly dismiss the first four of His 10 commandments. It's entirely in your face, verse after verse, chapter after chapter, book after book...Only the willfully blind cannot see the outrageousness of their rebellion. In the 21st century, it is now both Jewish and Christians who are in profound rebellion, with their traditions of man --- read Mark 7.
You must understand that Jesus warned us that in the end times, the end of the age will be marked by deception. (Matthew 24) We are currently living in the time and spirit of great deception, and so only the narrow path walked in lock step with Jesus and the Holy Spirit can protect you from the lies and deceit marinating the entirety of mankind --- except possibly for the most obedient of Christians. That being said, Jesus warned that even the very elect may be deceived.
People do need to wake up to the reality of the age.
Christmas is not pagan nor based on pagan holidays or gods. There are classicist scholars who have published about this online if anyone would care to check that out (I can’t post links in the subreddit per rule 8). While some of or Christmas traditions were of pagan origin (the Lord of Misrule as one example), American Christmas no longer includes these traditions.
I engaged in a discussion where someone claimed that Christmas was pagan in origin so thought I’d offer this information.
this is purely a doctrine of deception
If you don’t want to include any of the traditions, that’s between you and the Lord and I’d understand. However, please do not accuse someone of being deceptive when they are giving you historical information from written sources and not something that they’ve made up.
Idk. If it's about Jesus, it's good. If it promotes the other traditions, not so much.
I don't practice it, it's just a gathering at the family, because that's it, no commemoration of anything else, from my part.
Coca cola? 😂😂😂😂
Awesome. Thanks. Looking forward to the return of the light, on the December solstice. These times of dark and preparation and cold (in the north) are reflections of advent rituals. I think this ancient winter time of reflection and candles and eventually feast is large enough to contain the traditions of many.
I was raised in a family that celebrated a very commercialized version of Christmas: lots of gifts. It also included heavy parental drinking and meltdowns by mom. By the time I was a young adult, I began to dread it. The stress, the expense, the alcoholism and the family dynamics were just awful.
As an older adult, I celebrate it as a quiet religious commemoration. I do attend one party at work and one for church, but otherwise keep it very simple. Alas, I can no longer stay up late enough to go to the midnight service, which I used to love.
I don't know about y'all. First I have been born again Christian for more than a decade now. I used to celebrate 'Christmas' in December coz that's what I see people and even people who call themselves Christians do. But this year, God put into my heart to really try understand the origin of Christmas and when Jesus real birthday is. From the gospels, you can infer that Jesus was born 6 months after John the Baptist. And bible scholars have proven that John the Baptist was born mid-March. And simple math will tell you that March, the 3rd month in our modern calendar + 6 months is equal to 9th month of the year which is September. And basic biology will tell you that the normal pregnancy of a woman is 9 months, so Jesus was in the womb for 9 months then if John the Baptist was born around March, then Jesus' real birthday is September. And if you understand Jewish holidays, you would learn that there are two Jewish festivals around September (Rosh Hashanah/The Jewish New Year and Yom Kippur (The Day of Atonement). Another theory is Luke 2:1-2 there was Roman census ongoing. And Roman custom for doing census avoids winter seasons. So we know from that few verses that Jesus birth, travel was possible and it was not winter, high travel hence they were only able to lodge in a manger and no available inn. Winter season in the land of Israel happens November to March. So if you connect the dots, Jesus real birthday never happened on December 25. So as a true Christian, you should not celebrate December 25 because it has pagan origins. December 25 has the same level of demonic activity as October 31 Halloween. No amount of cultural white washing can erase what happens in the spiritual realm. Yes we celebrate Jesus becoming Immanuel for us but Jesus was never born on December 25 hence it's useless to participate in December 25 celebration. God bless you all!
I find it odd that there are two holidays dedicated to Jesus (Christmas and Easter) and the only ones who don't like it are some legalistic Christians.
I'll just say it's wrong to lie to your kids, telling them Santa is real.
The War on Christmas shall not end until its illegal occupation of November ceases.
You're joking but has anyone seen this in the wild?
https://fetch.com/blog/smart-shopping/pop-vs-soda
Also.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_mePjkQW_c