Continuing in a reply because you can't put much text in image comments:
To be clear, this isn't about shaming women for choosing to do things like shave or wear makeup. It's about acknowledging and remaining critical of the fact that patriarchal forces strongly influence our choices and preferences.
"Let women do these things if they want to; feminism is about choice!!" might feel good to say on the surface, but underneath lies a dismissive, uncritical stance that will never result in changing harmful beauty standards. It's important to understand that we don't make choices in a vacuum. That's all we (usually radical feminists) mean when we criticize "choice feminism."
It becomes a very important distinction in countries that are non-western, extremely patriachal and still uphold the standards that control women for the benefit of men. The brainwashing is real, the misogyny often comes from inside the house.
Wow holy cow I shave but it's because I don't like how my underwear fits when I've got a bush. I don't need it to be smooth though. Weirdly, I like the short stubble the best? Idk it's just more satisfying to scratch!
The need to be perfectly smooth isn't just a misogyny thing either. It's a pedo thing. Men who want their women to look prepubescent are a ✨ PROBLEM ✨
Edit: I'm sleep deprived so I'm over sharing but fun fact, my obgyn offered to write my husband a "prescription to shave" because I was having irritation from his pubes during sex, so he shaves lol.
I only shave my legs if I'm going to be wearing a dress that shows them. (This is me bending to the patriarchy I confess.) I also have very fine hair and it can kinda get frizzy I guess at a certain length? IDK how to explain it. But sometimes my baggy pajama pants brush only against my leg hair and I'll shave at that length because it feels like bugs are crawling on me? Grew up in a hoarder house and ants were a frequent problem. 😭
Althouuuugh, when I'm 90% sure the person is being serious, I respond and say something like, "lol damn that's a good one, can you believe people actually think this shit though?" Funnily enough, those are the times when I usually don't get a response, or it disarms them enough that the conversation goes a bit differently than it normally would have.
Well, it's good that you're already a radfem. Well, good, sort of speaking, because you grew up during the rise of the manosphere and incel content online.
But at least you know what most men think of women, so you won't be naive.
If I were a woman of your age, I'd probably go 4B, to be honest.
Men love to claim that dating is easy for women and impossible for them. However, they conveniently leave out the fact that quantity doesn't equal quality.
My thoughts- some people see a tension with the idea that a woman decides (e.g.) to be a stay at home mom, she’s giving up to the patriarchy. Not a real feminist because a true feminist would never compromise on her independence. But there’s nothing wrong with wanting to be a mom. And society will coerce women into making these choices, for example by making child care unaffordable, and not having paid parental leave. Choice feminism acknowledges real world constraints and alleviates some guilt women feel with their choices. But it doesn’t do anything to make the systematic changes that will fix a patriarchal society.
Agreed. The vast majority of women make non-feminist choices most of the time. That doesn’t mean they deserve to suffer under patriarchy. The purpose of feminism is not to tell women what to do, it’s to reveal the misogynistic structure of our society.
If feminism is the political, economic and social equality for women, then a feminist choice is something that furthers that agenda.
That does not mean any choice that doesn’t further this agenda is not a valid choice, it’s just not a feminist choice.
Choosing a sandwich for lunch is not a feminist choice because you’re a woman making that decision. Choosing to be a stay at home mom with no protections for your unpaid labour is valid if you want to do it, but it’s not a feminist choice.
I consider myself a feminist and I make choices that aren’t feminist choices often.
Agreed. Every one of us has to do the socially encouraged thing sometimes, else we couldn't survive. We would exhaust ourselves sailing against the wind. It doesn't make us bad feminists... as long as we're honest and we don't frame it to other women as "only a personal preference completely unrelated to social standards, I just personally prefer to have smooth skin due to sensory issues". Bollocks.
…I can admit maybe wanting to wax certain body hair isn’t an actively feminist choice but like what’s your beef with sensory issues lol I’ve grown all my body hair out for long periods of time and strongly prefer not having most of it because of how it feels
I also have sensory issues with some body hair (and clothes, and foods, etc), and I kinda think people policing your own experience "no you don't have sensory issues with body hair" should butt out. It may be "feminist-neutral" to shave body hair, but it's not feminist to tell other women they're just not trying hard enough to love a "bush" either.
Same. Sensory issues in various parts of my life. I like body hair some places and absolutely cannot stand it in others. It feels shitty to read other women jusy dismissing how I feel about my own body.
I guess I don’t spend enough time on TikTok/other mainstream social media to notice the trend. I didn’t know it was a widespread used reasoning to the point of it being annoying. I’m part of the small population that does indeed have genuine sensory issues (thanks autism/adhd)across the board.
Even that post admits that 20% of the population could have sensory issues.
Seems a little bizarre for it to insist that sensory issues are rare and wouldn't account for a lot of people disliking the feeling of body hair, but also saying that up to 20% of the population might have sensory issues. That isn't rare— that's extremely common.
I think it really depends though, because our ancestors were fine with being hairy for majority of our history. I do have certain sensory issues with body hair, but I genuinely think that a large portion of the people who feel the need to shave their legs are not doing it because of sensory issues.
That isn't true though. Humans have been shaving since the Paleolithic age, which means that since we developed tools, we've been shaving.
I don't doubt that plenty of women shave their legs because of patriarchal beauty standards, but it's disingenuous and incorrect to state that early humans were "fine with being hairy" or that many people don't remove hair for sensory issues.
Sometimes the line between patriarchy and just being patronizing overlaps, and inevitably when people talk about hair removal that occurs.
I think it really depends though, because our ancestors were fine with being hairy for majority of our history.
Bad assumption. Inaccurate too. Humans have been shaving since ancient times for many reasons. How can you be so sure of sensory issues not being one of these reasons...?
That post is a difficult read and contradicts itself in multiple parts. It really just seems incredulous that people can truly dislike the feeling of body hair, which is paternalistic to say the least.
Sensory processing challenges only affect 5-20ish percent of the general population.
So we can acknowledge that up to 20% of the population has sensory processing challenges, but somehow also say that it's "rare"?
Well said!! I agree with you, and I think we’re aligned, I just would like to expand on questioning choice feminism a bit to open dialogue (assuming my adhd brain remembers to see if anyone does want to engage in a discussion).
This is where choice feminism feels like a driver of postfeminist dialogue because people rationalize their own choices and ignore the external factors that have artificially shaped their reality, eg Plato’s Cave. Does the stay at home mom make that choice because it is truly what she wants or is it artificial constraints that limit her ability to do as she wishes? Is it truly realpolitik to say that a non-choice feminist is fanciful and out of touch?
I would argue that it’s intentionally subversive to the feminist movement to say any choice a woman makes is a feminist choice. Since everyone is a human, is any choice any human makes intrinsically a humanist choice? Obviously not. Feminism is about uplifting women not woman. Choice feminism is not realpolitik, it’s propaganda. Feminism doesn’t ignore the real world constraints, it just doesn’t accept them as immutable and fundamental laws of reality.
I think you make some very good points. What you mention about Plato's cave is in line with what I was trying to say. And I agree about your criticism for choice feminism.
I am not as well read as I'd like on some aspects of feminism. I'm not sure about calling anything postfeminist, because I think it assumes we can freeze feminism as a point in time, and then say we're done. As though we've achieved our goal, and now we just want to hang onto the status quo. But it's an ongoing struggle, and the goals evolve but never disappear. We stand on the shoulders of the giantesses who proceeded us, but deal with new problems they never would have imagined.
Aaaand I will be stealing that, thank you. What a sadly apt encapsulation of... Well, everything about a "sexually liberated" society where we still have a massive orgasm gap and consent problems.
I think I’m not really understanding the discourse here. I ask because I’m curious and want to learn, not because I want to debate anyone.
If one end of the spectrum is purity culture (men controlling women’s bodies and denying their pleasure) and the other end of the spectrum is sexual liberation (prioritizing men’s sexual interests per the meme), then what’s the “right” choice in the eyes of radical feminism?
My immediate perception is that it’s yet another group of people putting expectations on women and shaming them for making the “wrong” choice, and it feels like there’s no “right” way to be a human women living in the western world. But again, that’s my immediate reaction, and I’d like to understand if/how that perception is wrong.
Radical feminism isn't in the business of prescribing "right" choices for women. We just oppose liberal/choice feminism because it doesn't criticize harmful patriarchal institutions like the beauty and porn industries, and doesn't acknowledge that people's choices can be influenced by misogyny.
Where liberal feminists would unquestioningly celebrate a woman deciding to make porn, for instance, radical feminists would ask "is this really what she wants to do, or does she feel she has no other choice? Is she safe? Does she actually feel good and 'empowered', or is that a coping mechanism to tolerate all the abuse by her male customers/co-performers?" If you read practically any anecdotes about the porn industry, it's shockingly clear that these questions are not being asked often enough.
To quote an old post I once saw-- "Feminism isn't about choice. The problem isn't whether to eat apples or oranges in your cage, it's the cage."
That I can understand. But then my question is what about if a woman who partakes in an activity/behavior labeled as unfeminist has “genuine” reasons for doing so?
I’ve seen the leg shaving example brought up here a lot. Shaving one’s legs is seen as a thing women are conditioned to do to look feminine, but lots of women here are saying they do it for lots of other reasons (it’s itchy, they get ingrowns, hygiene, etc etc). Does that still make shaving unfeminist regardless of the reason for doing so? The folks here saying they shave for non-aesthetic reasons are still being told that’s not the real reason they shave.
I understand asking the question of why someone would want to do something that maintains the patriarchy, critique is important. But it feels like they have to prove their intentions are “good enough.”
If these things are deemed unfeminist regardless of intention, then is the only way forward not to do them at all?
I really want to stress that I’m not debating you and my questions are genuine; I want to understand whether or not intent matters. My only real critique is that I know you’re saying radical feminists aren’t in the business of prescribing right and wrong, but then I see memes like the one above and the OG post and it seems like there is indeed a wrong way to do things.
does that still make shaving unfeminist regardless of the reason for doing so?
I think you might be looking at this the wrong way. Saying something is not feminist doesn't mean it's morally wrong or that you shouldn't do it. It just means it doesn't further the cause of women's liberation. Drinking water isn't feminist, either, but we should obviously all be doing it. Plenty of actions are just neutral.
Intentions do matter. It's kinda like asking "I painted my face brown when I was a tree in a school play, was this anti-racist?" Like, it may not be racist because of the intentions, but it's also not anti-racist. And similarly, shaving to prevent ingrown hairs is not misogynistic, but it's also not feminist. Does that make sense?
Edit: I will also add the caveat, though, that a big part of the radical feminist critique is encouraging women to think about whether their intentions are truly organic, or if they've been influenced in ways they don't yet recognize. Ingrown hairs are one thing, sure, but is your body hair really "itchy" or have you just been forced to shave since you were 12 years old and therefore are no longer used to the feeling of body hair? Would your life be easier if you gave up the ritual and got used to it again? I know it doesn't feel good to have one's motives questioned, but experience proves that we're often very good at lying to ourselves. Someone has to ask these uncomfortable questions if progress is going to be made.
Yeah that makes sense. I think distinguishing something being feminist from being morally right/wrong was what I needed to read to get it. I think I’m so used to seeing “not feminist = bad” that it was my assumption here too. I appreciate you taking the time to explain all this 💕
I'm a radical feminist. I shave my legs, wear lipstick and suck dick. The radical feminist part of all that is that I acknowledge that while I "choose" to do those things, that my choices are inherently shaped by the patriarchy. There is a social pressure on me to have shaved legs, and look and act feminine, and social consequences if I don't abide by those standards. I used to argue that I wore lipstick for myself because I liked feeling good and looking good but like...where does the idea that lipstick looks good come from? Who decided that make up looks better on women than no make up? The fact is that beauty standards have historically been shaped by the male gaze.
Being a radical feminist doesn't mean that I neither feel guilty about doing these things, nor that I shame other women for their choices. I simply acknowledge and am aware that these aren't feminist choices. Not everything I do is feminist. That's fine, we are people, not walking agendas. Some choices I make are feminist - like not allowing myself to be used as the note taker during a meeting and speaking up when I see a woman being talked over. Some choices I make aren't - like...drinking a coffee isn't a feminist choice, it's just a choice. Wearing lipstick isn't anti feminist, but nor is it feminist. Sucking dick isn't empowering, it's just sex (and obviously influenced by the patriarchy). But there's nothing wrong with having and enjoying sex. Radical feminism isn't about shaming you for your choices, just creating awareness of what shapes them, and pushing back where you can on the things that actively harm and undermine women.
Ok I think this is the best explanation I’ve read so far and makes complete sense to me. I appreciate you typing all that out.
What I think I was getting stuck on was the critique of calling slut pride “empowering”. I thought it was saying “it’s bad, not empowering”, but if I understand correctly I think it’s actually saying it’s not necessarily anything.
Reading your description of your life, thought processes, choices, and personal beliefs, I relate to and align with you. And by that definition would probably consider myself a radical feminist. Appreciate you!
Yeah, pretty much. Just because something isn't feminist doesn't necessarily mean it's "bad". Most things we do aren't feminist, really, they're just nothing. Sometimes they're unfeminist, but that also doesn't mean bad. Now there IS overlap over bad and unfeminist, but theres also debate over those things, especially when it's not clear cut. Like, I would argue sexual promiscuity isn't feminist but it's also not bad - but some people might argue it actually is, and they have their own reasons for that view. For me the line for bad AND unfeminist is where it actively causes harm. For example, porn and sex work. I actually wrote originally in my comment that I watch porn - and then I realized that actually, no I don't anymore. I used to (I used to be a choice feminist too), but the more I learned about it and understood its harms the more repulsive I found it and now I just...don't. And then there is sex work - I don't think women who do it are wrong or bad - but I will always believe that sex work harms women, both individually and generally and I very much push back against the idea that there is any merit to the "choice" to engage in sex work. If your choice is to sell your body or starve, it's not a choice, it's exploitation and oppression. Which no, isn't unique to sex work! But sex work is a problem that is perpetuated by patriarchy and primarily harms women, so it is a feminist issue.
There will probably be arguments about what exactly harm constitutes - some people might argue that anything that perpetuates stereotypes contributes to the oppression of women and therefore lipstick is harmful. Like many ideologies, there's a pretty broad spectrum. Mine is just one perspective. Anyway I enjoyed reading your questions too so thanks for entertaining my rambles. I'm glad you joined our ranks ;)
I think the point of this meme is to convey that sometimes radical feminists feel like liberal/choice feminists have hijacked feminism, and the latter's defense of certain issues is counterproductive to the former.
Porn and sex work (SW) are two main topics on which they tend to disagree:
Libfems emphasize the sexual liberation of women and focus more on women as individuals. Radfems, on the other hand, argue that women as a class don't live in a vacuum and that patriarchy can still influence women's choices.
I believe the image below sums up radical feminists' perspective on sex quite well. They don't oppose sex itself; they're just critical of how it's often practiced:
I fucking hate it. I will ALWAYS advocate for sex workers to have rights and be treated like human beings, but pretending it's great and that there's no harm involved is hopelessly naive and offensive.
Yes, and the same goes for pornography.
In theory, a regulated industry should not be problematic, but in practice, it's a different story. Abuse is still not rare.
Besides, it's definitely not a good thing that acts like choking are being normalized when they can cause long-term brain damage.
Teaching men to treat women like pieces of meat is not sexual education, and it probably doesn't help men see women as human beings when they're used to watching a lot of porn.
God I was in a thread a couple years ago where a woman posted about her being worried because daughter had been slapped in the face during sex and it turned out the daughter had asked her bf to do it? And the entire thread was defending it. Like ok sure this 15 year old spontaneously realized that she wanted to be slapped in the face with zero external factors or influences whatsoever. Porn had absolutely NOTHING to do with this literal child thinking violence during sex was normal. Ok then. Porn is so fucking normalized it's insane. I have no issue with grown women who enjoy rough sex (I do too) but you have to acknowledge that when literal children are being influenced like this it is really fucked up.
Honestly, it was men who radicalized me. A few months ago, I was pretty active on a debate sub about relationships.
I noticed that there were a lot of extreme opinions from men, like lowering the age of consent to 12 years, apologizing for or at least not condemning R*, treating women like crap, blaming women and feminism for everything, and so on.
1- So... Is meeting someone just for sex considered wrong? I imagine that it could happen more in a more gender-equal society.
2- I was considering posting on /changemyview about me having a bad view of human sexual desire, but my problems are about patriarchy.
As long as both people are honest about their intentions and practice protected, safe, and consensual sex in a respectful manner, I think that's totally fine.
2- I don't know this sub very well, but I think men might get defensive or even hostile if you start blaming patriarchy.
But if you're ready for that, then go for it! You might still get a few interesting opinions in the comments.
Yes, you're probably right that the bond and intimacy between close partners is usually stronger than that between random people.
However, in theory, casual sex could be the same way if both people want it to be.
Yes omg and I'm so tired of being screamed at that SEX WORK IS WORK or that COAL MINERS SELL THEIR BODIES TOO and getting called a swerf. I'm not excluding sex workers I'm trying to argue for stronger protections! Nobody is saying sex work isn't work...but it's undeniable that women are coerced and exploited and trafficked in sex work. And you know what, miners are also coerced and exploited and THAT IS ALSO BAD. They can both be bad and we can want more rights and protections for all the bad things people do to each other! We should not be encouraging or normalizing "choices" people are forced to make that result in deep and lasting harm when the alternative is starvation.
It's not looking down on other women. You don't need be a functionally asexual butch to be a "real" feminist, but not every choice a woman makes is inherently feminist.
And you can’t think of a way to make that point without belittling them and implying you are their mental better? I don’t necessarily disagree with you even, just your tone here in one of the few places on reddit where I expect women to be respected was… sad.
Patriarchal programming is very deep, and it influences your choices even when you're not aware of it. Because of this, it's not inherently feminist to be a stay-at-home mom or a sex worker or wear a hijab.
That’s a better way to begin than whatever squidward was doing. That’s all I meant. Good luck. I hope you reach a wider audience as you fine tune your approach.
As I said in another comment chain, it's not about shaming women at all; it's about understanding that our choices don't exist in a vacuum. Would we still be "choosing" to shave or wear makeup if patriarchal beauty standards didn't exist? (I know I wouldn't). Would women still "choose" to be sex workers if the pressures of living under capitalism were removed?
Radical feminists aren't saying "you suck if you wear makeup". Rather, we're focusing on abolishing the patriarchal structures that make women feel obligated to do all these things, rather than dismissing all of it as a neutral "choice" and allowing those oppressive structures to keep existing. That is why we are critical of "choice feminism"-- because it doesn't challenge the patriarchy at all, and, in fact, tends to empower it.
I respect your viewpoint completely. For me, being a radical feminist vs a liberal/"choice" feminist in this context is just a matter of being aware of the patriarchy's influence. Would you ever casually "feel like shaving" your legs if that just wasn't a thing that women ever did, for instance? I'm now aware of just how insidious societal misogyny is and how it can cause us to invent justifications for ourselves that feel organic, but aren't. I, like many others, thought that I just "liked" wearing makeup until I did some serious reflection and broke though the several layers of literal brainwashing society had inflicted upon me to make me feel that way.
Now that I see all of this for what it is, of course, I can't go back. I don't want to take choices away from any woman. I just now have the proper tools and insight to place criticism where it belongs.
Hi, I am not trying to argue with you or debate or anything like that. I just want to offer my perspective as a trans person on something you said.
A big reason trans people gravitate towards conservative gender roles and expectations is that we aren’t gendered correctly unless we do. I see why that perpetuates those roles and expectations, and how that reinforces patriarchal values, but I don’t know what else we’re supposed to do then. Am I supposed to change nothing about myself and just yell, “actually I am a woman!!!!” at everyone around me while I do traditionally masculine things? Probably not. So what do I do then?
That’s all I wanted to say. We don’t all have cartoonish views of womanhood we’re just forced into roles deemed feminine by the patriarchy.
Hold on a sec, you said you don't want to associate with terfs, but you realize what you said here is the entire extent of what they believe, right? I have a more generous view of trans people than you do (I believe sex dysphoria is a real condition distinct from regular dysmorphia, and that transition is probably the most effective way to treat it. I also think that most people transition because of dysphoria and not because of stereotypes), and yet most people would still consider me a terf because I think misogyny is based on sex, not gender.
Edit: here is a detailed summary of what terfs believe about sex vs gender. If you think there's any more to it, or that the conservatives on Twitter coopting the label have anything to do with radical feminism, then you've been the victim of propaganda.
Edit 2: And she blocked me lmao
Sorry sis but you're probably a terf whether you want to believe it or not. The only acceptable trans affirming belief nowadays is that you can literally change your sex.
How do you define someone's sex? Based on their chromosomes? There are many, many people in this world who do not have XX or XY genotypes. Further, there are people who have (for example) an XY genotype with androgen insensitivity syndrome, who may go years without realizing that their "sex" (if genotype is our definition) is male.
Or do you go by phenotypic expression of primary and/or secondary sexual characteristics at birth? Does that mean that intersex people have no sex at all because they don't have genital/gonadal tissue that is legible to you? Or are the plastic surgeons who historically modify infants' genitals to "correct" their intersex-ness get to determine their sex (if phenotypic expression of primary sexual characteristics is our definition)? Or does that count as "artificial"?
If we're sticking purely in the biology vein, we can also look at hormones, which yes, can be "artificially" changed. Does that mean cis women who go on hormone replacement therapy after menopause now magically become "artificial" women?
The "fact" that you can only change your sex "artificially" has an awful lot of holes in it, and more importantly, I'm not sure that it's dispositive of absolutely anything at all.
Yeah. Gender stereotypes do harm people more often than not though. Since they then seep into societal expectations (ex- women are better with people, hence they should be trad wives and handle children type shi, or women are the fairer sex, hence they wear more makeup, so then women who don't wear makeup get less attention at work, are taken less seriously, so on and so forth.) it's a vicious cycle. Also, the reason why I made this meme was I recently got into arguments with liberal feminists who defended women with enough autonomy wearing niqabs and even hijabs (in more developed countries than the ones where burqas and niqabs are mandatory). It was really baffling.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choice_feminism
TLDR: neoliberal idea that any choice a woman makes is a feminist choice.
And if anyone doesn't understand why choice feminism is harmful, here's a relevant screenshot I had saved:
https://preview.redd.it/301pwi1kezbg1.jpeg?width=1076&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5799593a09a9765e19b2166c7f04d1fdcadbc982
Continuing in a reply because you can't put much text in image comments:
To be clear, this isn't about shaming women for choosing to do things like shave or wear makeup. It's about acknowledging and remaining critical of the fact that patriarchal forces strongly influence our choices and preferences.
"Let women do these things if they want to; feminism is about choice!!" might feel good to say on the surface, but underneath lies a dismissive, uncritical stance that will never result in changing harmful beauty standards. It's important to understand that we don't make choices in a vacuum. That's all we (usually radical feminists) mean when we criticize "choice feminism."
It becomes a very important distinction in countries that are non-western, extremely patriachal and still uphold the standards that control women for the benefit of men. The brainwashing is real, the misogyny often comes from inside the house.
Wow holy cow I shave but it's because I don't like how my underwear fits when I've got a bush. I don't need it to be smooth though. Weirdly, I like the short stubble the best? Idk it's just more satisfying to scratch!
The need to be perfectly smooth isn't just a misogyny thing either. It's a pedo thing. Men who want their women to look prepubescent are a ✨ PROBLEM ✨
Edit: I'm sleep deprived so I'm over sharing but fun fact, my obgyn offered to write my husband a "prescription to shave" because I was having irritation from his pubes during sex, so he shaves lol.
Your obgyn rules, a true girls girl
I shave in the spring/summer, but I’m in full bear mode right now haha
I mean, I leave a full bush, but shave my legs and underarms.
Underarms because I regularly have eczema issues there, and it's easier to apply ointment when it's shaved.
Legs because freshly shaved legs on freshly washed sheets is the best feeling in the whole damn world. And I get to have it tonight!
I only shave my legs if I'm going to be wearing a dress that shows them. (This is me bending to the patriarchy I confess.) I also have very fine hair and it can kinda get frizzy I guess at a certain length? IDK how to explain it. But sometimes my baggy pajama pants brush only against my leg hair and I'll shave at that length because it feels like bugs are crawling on me? Grew up in a hoarder house and ants were a frequent problem. 😭
Thank you for explaining! I wasn’t understanding from the picture alone.
Wow so all the women who openly and actively oppose feminism were feminists this whole time, crazy world
Why the downvotes, was the sarcasm not obvious
It’s Reddit. They stopped understanding sarcasm years ago, unfortunately
You have to use /s lest you be accused of being evil or whatever
The problem is that people do say crazy shit
Yup. Poe's Law is in effect and will be for the foreseeable future.
Althouuuugh, when I'm 90% sure the person is being serious, I respond and say something like, "lol damn that's a good one, can you believe people actually think this shit though?" Funnily enough, those are the times when I usually don't get a response, or it disarms them enough that the conversation goes a bit differently than it normally would have.
https://preview.redd.it/iucczqv695cg1.png?width=898&format=png&auto=webp&s=fcebb71a2f4e363d61aeb30565c3357a515981d7
Does anyone feel like posting it on TrollX?
How dare they!!!!
Feel free to share it!
I think it shows that radfem views are not extreme at all in a fun way.
Besides, it's a good, subtle way to radicalize the libfem from this sub :) .
Yeah haha! How old are you btw?
I'm almost 40! And you?
Haha wow! I'll be 18 in a couple months
Well, it's good that you're already a radfem. Well, good, sort of speaking, because you grew up during the rise of the manosphere and incel content online.
But at least you know what most men think of women, so you won't be naive.
If I were a woman of your age, I'd probably go 4B, to be honest.
Men love to claim that dating is easy for women and impossible for them. However, they conveniently leave out the fact that quantity doesn't equal quality.
What's that?
Someone who thinks any choice a woman makes is a feminist choice.
My thoughts- some people see a tension with the idea that a woman decides (e.g.) to be a stay at home mom, she’s giving up to the patriarchy. Not a real feminist because a true feminist would never compromise on her independence. But there’s nothing wrong with wanting to be a mom. And society will coerce women into making these choices, for example by making child care unaffordable, and not having paid parental leave. Choice feminism acknowledges real world constraints and alleviates some guilt women feel with their choices. But it doesn’t do anything to make the systematic changes that will fix a patriarchal society.
I think you're equating "it's not a feminist choice" with "she's not a feminist." They're not the same thing.
I shave my legs. This doesn't make me not a feminist or a bad feminist, but it's not feminist to shave my legs.
That's my two cents, anyway.
Agreed. The vast majority of women make non-feminist choices most of the time. That doesn’t mean they deserve to suffer under patriarchy. The purpose of feminism is not to tell women what to do, it’s to reveal the misogynistic structure of our society.
Me reading my romance novels unfeministly.
https://theonion.com/woman-takes-short-half-hour-break-from-being-feminist-t-1819576049/
This is how I’ve always seen it too.
If feminism is the political, economic and social equality for women, then a feminist choice is something that furthers that agenda.
That does not mean any choice that doesn’t further this agenda is not a valid choice, it’s just not a feminist choice.
Choosing a sandwich for lunch is not a feminist choice because you’re a woman making that decision. Choosing to be a stay at home mom with no protections for your unpaid labour is valid if you want to do it, but it’s not a feminist choice.
I consider myself a feminist and I make choices that aren’t feminist choices often.
Agreed. Every one of us has to do the socially encouraged thing sometimes, else we couldn't survive. We would exhaust ourselves sailing against the wind. It doesn't make us bad feminists... as long as we're honest and we don't frame it to other women as "only a personal preference completely unrelated to social standards, I just personally prefer to have smooth skin due to sensory issues". Bollocks.
…I can admit maybe wanting to wax certain body hair isn’t an actively feminist choice but like what’s your beef with sensory issues lol I’ve grown all my body hair out for long periods of time and strongly prefer not having most of it because of how it feels
I also have sensory issues with some body hair (and clothes, and foods, etc), and I kinda think people policing your own experience "no you don't have sensory issues with body hair" should butt out. It may be "feminist-neutral" to shave body hair, but it's not feminist to tell other women they're just not trying hard enough to love a "bush" either.
Same. Sensory issues in various parts of my life. I like body hair some places and absolutely cannot stand it in others. It feels shitty to read other women jusy dismissing how I feel about my own body.
This post, along with several of the comments, does a good job explaining it
I guess I don’t spend enough time on TikTok/other mainstream social media to notice the trend. I didn’t know it was a widespread used reasoning to the point of it being annoying. I’m part of the small population that does indeed have genuine sensory issues (thanks autism/adhd)across the board.
Even that post admits that 20% of the population could have sensory issues.
Seems a little bizarre for it to insist that sensory issues are rare and wouldn't account for a lot of people disliking the feeling of body hair, but also saying that up to 20% of the population might have sensory issues. That isn't rare— that's extremely common.
I think it really depends though, because our ancestors were fine with being hairy for majority of our history. I do have certain sensory issues with body hair, but I genuinely think that a large portion of the people who feel the need to shave their legs are not doing it because of sensory issues.
That isn't true though. Humans have been shaving since the Paleolithic age, which means that since we developed tools, we've been shaving.
I don't doubt that plenty of women shave their legs because of patriarchal beauty standards, but it's disingenuous and incorrect to state that early humans were "fine with being hairy" or that many people don't remove hair for sensory issues.
Sometimes the line between patriarchy and just being patronizing overlaps, and inevitably when people talk about hair removal that occurs.
Bad assumption. Inaccurate too. Humans have been shaving since ancient times for many reasons. How can you be so sure of sensory issues not being one of these reasons...?
That post is a difficult read and contradicts itself in multiple parts. It really just seems incredulous that people can truly dislike the feeling of body hair, which is paternalistic to say the least.
So we can acknowledge that up to 20% of the population has sensory processing challenges, but somehow also say that it's "rare"?
Well said!! I agree with you, and I think we’re aligned, I just would like to expand on questioning choice feminism a bit to open dialogue (assuming my adhd brain remembers to see if anyone does want to engage in a discussion).
This is where choice feminism feels like a driver of postfeminist dialogue because people rationalize their own choices and ignore the external factors that have artificially shaped their reality, eg Plato’s Cave. Does the stay at home mom make that choice because it is truly what she wants or is it artificial constraints that limit her ability to do as she wishes? Is it truly realpolitik to say that a non-choice feminist is fanciful and out of touch?
I would argue that it’s intentionally subversive to the feminist movement to say any choice a woman makes is a feminist choice. Since everyone is a human, is any choice any human makes intrinsically a humanist choice? Obviously not. Feminism is about uplifting women not woman. Choice feminism is not realpolitik, it’s propaganda. Feminism doesn’t ignore the real world constraints, it just doesn’t accept them as immutable and fundamental laws of reality.
I think you make some very good points. What you mention about Plato's cave is in line with what I was trying to say. And I agree about your criticism for choice feminism.
I am not as well read as I'd like on some aspects of feminism. I'm not sure about calling anything postfeminist, because I think it assumes we can freeze feminism as a point in time, and then say we're done. As though we've achieved our goal, and now we just want to hang onto the status quo. But it's an ongoing struggle, and the goals evolve but never disappear. We stand on the shoulders of the giantesses who proceeded us, but deal with new problems they never would have imagined.
https://preview.redd.it/gq6gp3ao60cg1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=3e306c03579d71d08c2db9d6355bb1af41cb9ac2
Aaaand I will be stealing that, thank you. What a sadly apt encapsulation of... Well, everything about a "sexually liberated" society where we still have a massive orgasm gap and consent problems.
I think I’m not really understanding the discourse here. I ask because I’m curious and want to learn, not because I want to debate anyone.
If one end of the spectrum is purity culture (men controlling women’s bodies and denying their pleasure) and the other end of the spectrum is sexual liberation (prioritizing men’s sexual interests per the meme), then what’s the “right” choice in the eyes of radical feminism?
My immediate perception is that it’s yet another group of people putting expectations on women and shaming them for making the “wrong” choice, and it feels like there’s no “right” way to be a human women living in the western world. But again, that’s my immediate reaction, and I’d like to understand if/how that perception is wrong.
Radical feminism isn't in the business of prescribing "right" choices for women. We just oppose liberal/choice feminism because it doesn't criticize harmful patriarchal institutions like the beauty and porn industries, and doesn't acknowledge that people's choices can be influenced by misogyny.
Where liberal feminists would unquestioningly celebrate a woman deciding to make porn, for instance, radical feminists would ask "is this really what she wants to do, or does she feel she has no other choice? Is she safe? Does she actually feel good and 'empowered', or is that a coping mechanism to tolerate all the abuse by her male customers/co-performers?" If you read practically any anecdotes about the porn industry, it's shockingly clear that these questions are not being asked often enough.
To quote an old post I once saw-- "Feminism isn't about choice. The problem isn't whether to eat apples or oranges in your cage, it's the cage."
That I can understand. But then my question is what about if a woman who partakes in an activity/behavior labeled as unfeminist has “genuine” reasons for doing so?
I’ve seen the leg shaving example brought up here a lot. Shaving one’s legs is seen as a thing women are conditioned to do to look feminine, but lots of women here are saying they do it for lots of other reasons (it’s itchy, they get ingrowns, hygiene, etc etc). Does that still make shaving unfeminist regardless of the reason for doing so? The folks here saying they shave for non-aesthetic reasons are still being told that’s not the real reason they shave.
I understand asking the question of why someone would want to do something that maintains the patriarchy, critique is important. But it feels like they have to prove their intentions are “good enough.”
If these things are deemed unfeminist regardless of intention, then is the only way forward not to do them at all?
I really want to stress that I’m not debating you and my questions are genuine; I want to understand whether or not intent matters. My only real critique is that I know you’re saying radical feminists aren’t in the business of prescribing right and wrong, but then I see memes like the one above and the OG post and it seems like there is indeed a wrong way to do things.
I think you might be looking at this the wrong way. Saying something is not feminist doesn't mean it's morally wrong or that you shouldn't do it. It just means it doesn't further the cause of women's liberation. Drinking water isn't feminist, either, but we should obviously all be doing it. Plenty of actions are just neutral.
Intentions do matter. It's kinda like asking "I painted my face brown when I was a tree in a school play, was this anti-racist?" Like, it may not be racist because of the intentions, but it's also not anti-racist. And similarly, shaving to prevent ingrown hairs is not misogynistic, but it's also not feminist. Does that make sense?
Edit: I will also add the caveat, though, that a big part of the radical feminist critique is encouraging women to think about whether their intentions are truly organic, or if they've been influenced in ways they don't yet recognize. Ingrown hairs are one thing, sure, but is your body hair really "itchy" or have you just been forced to shave since you were 12 years old and therefore are no longer used to the feeling of body hair? Would your life be easier if you gave up the ritual and got used to it again? I know it doesn't feel good to have one's motives questioned, but experience proves that we're often very good at lying to ourselves. Someone has to ask these uncomfortable questions if progress is going to be made.
Yeah that makes sense. I think distinguishing something being feminist from being morally right/wrong was what I needed to read to get it. I think I’m so used to seeing “not feminist = bad” that it was my assumption here too. I appreciate you taking the time to explain all this 💕
No worries, glad I could help!!
I'm a radical feminist. I shave my legs, wear lipstick and suck dick. The radical feminist part of all that is that I acknowledge that while I "choose" to do those things, that my choices are inherently shaped by the patriarchy. There is a social pressure on me to have shaved legs, and look and act feminine, and social consequences if I don't abide by those standards. I used to argue that I wore lipstick for myself because I liked feeling good and looking good but like...where does the idea that lipstick looks good come from? Who decided that make up looks better on women than no make up? The fact is that beauty standards have historically been shaped by the male gaze.
Being a radical feminist doesn't mean that I neither feel guilty about doing these things, nor that I shame other women for their choices. I simply acknowledge and am aware that these aren't feminist choices. Not everything I do is feminist. That's fine, we are people, not walking agendas. Some choices I make are feminist - like not allowing myself to be used as the note taker during a meeting and speaking up when I see a woman being talked over. Some choices I make aren't - like...drinking a coffee isn't a feminist choice, it's just a choice. Wearing lipstick isn't anti feminist, but nor is it feminist. Sucking dick isn't empowering, it's just sex (and obviously influenced by the patriarchy). But there's nothing wrong with having and enjoying sex. Radical feminism isn't about shaming you for your choices, just creating awareness of what shapes them, and pushing back where you can on the things that actively harm and undermine women.
Ok I think this is the best explanation I’ve read so far and makes complete sense to me. I appreciate you typing all that out.
What I think I was getting stuck on was the critique of calling slut pride “empowering”. I thought it was saying “it’s bad, not empowering”, but if I understand correctly I think it’s actually saying it’s not necessarily anything.
Reading your description of your life, thought processes, choices, and personal beliefs, I relate to and align with you. And by that definition would probably consider myself a radical feminist. Appreciate you!
Yeah, pretty much. Just because something isn't feminist doesn't necessarily mean it's "bad". Most things we do aren't feminist, really, they're just nothing. Sometimes they're unfeminist, but that also doesn't mean bad. Now there IS overlap over bad and unfeminist, but theres also debate over those things, especially when it's not clear cut. Like, I would argue sexual promiscuity isn't feminist but it's also not bad - but some people might argue it actually is, and they have their own reasons for that view. For me the line for bad AND unfeminist is where it actively causes harm. For example, porn and sex work. I actually wrote originally in my comment that I watch porn - and then I realized that actually, no I don't anymore. I used to (I used to be a choice feminist too), but the more I learned about it and understood its harms the more repulsive I found it and now I just...don't. And then there is sex work - I don't think women who do it are wrong or bad - but I will always believe that sex work harms women, both individually and generally and I very much push back against the idea that there is any merit to the "choice" to engage in sex work. If your choice is to sell your body or starve, it's not a choice, it's exploitation and oppression. Which no, isn't unique to sex work! But sex work is a problem that is perpetuated by patriarchy and primarily harms women, so it is a feminist issue.
There will probably be arguments about what exactly harm constitutes - some people might argue that anything that perpetuates stereotypes contributes to the oppression of women and therefore lipstick is harmful. Like many ideologies, there's a pretty broad spectrum. Mine is just one perspective. Anyway I enjoyed reading your questions too so thanks for entertaining my rambles. I'm glad you joined our ranks ;)
I think the point of this meme is to convey that sometimes radical feminists feel like liberal/choice feminists have hijacked feminism, and the latter's defense of certain issues is counterproductive to the former.
Porn and sex work (SW) are two main topics on which they tend to disagree:
Libfems emphasize the sexual liberation of women and focus more on women as individuals. Radfems, on the other hand, argue that women as a class don't live in a vacuum and that patriarchy can still influence women's choices.
I believe the image below sums up radical feminists' perspective on sex quite well. They don't oppose sex itself; they're just critical of how it's often practiced:
https://preview.redd.it/tss7kght26cg1.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=2764c2c1d8cbdc83f21e1ddddd16c2eb5fafef52
The increasing radfem presence in this subreddit makes me so happy
Yes, I'm with you on that!
I've been saving up some radfem memes for a while now, but I was always kind of hesitant to post them here.
Yessss! So apt. The amount of choice feminists or liberal feminists (same thing) defending sex work is CRAAAAAZY
I fucking hate it. I will ALWAYS advocate for sex workers to have rights and be treated like human beings, but pretending it's great and that there's no harm involved is hopelessly naive and offensive.
Edit: In case anyone comes in to argue with me - this comment encapsulates my sentiment pretty well.
This comment is even better.
Yep, that's exactly my opinions. Don't entertain the arguments
Yes, and the same goes for pornography. In theory, a regulated industry should not be problematic, but in practice, it's a different story. Abuse is still not rare.
Besides, it's definitely not a good thing that acts like choking are being normalized when they can cause long-term brain damage. Teaching men to treat women like pieces of meat is not sexual education, and it probably doesn't help men see women as human beings when they're used to watching a lot of porn.
God I was in a thread a couple years ago where a woman posted about her being worried because daughter had been slapped in the face during sex and it turned out the daughter had asked her bf to do it? And the entire thread was defending it. Like ok sure this 15 year old spontaneously realized that she wanted to be slapped in the face with zero external factors or influences whatsoever. Porn had absolutely NOTHING to do with this literal child thinking violence during sex was normal. Ok then. Porn is so fucking normalized it's insane. I have no issue with grown women who enjoy rough sex (I do too) but you have to acknowledge that when literal children are being influenced like this it is really fucked up.
https://preview.redd.it/7lw3to1tgfcg1.png?width=720&format=png&auto=webp&s=d4be6734c83fadf8b8bbf601319cf4805cb58754
Yepp! I can't believe men like you still exist lol. I'm so against porn, OF, consented and non consented sex work. Glad to see fellow agreers
Honestly, it was men who radicalized me. A few months ago, I was pretty active on a debate sub about relationships.
I noticed that there were a lot of extreme opinions from men, like lowering the age of consent to 12 years, apologizing for or at least not condemning R*, treating women like crap, blaming women and feminism for everything, and so on.
Jeez that's so weird. 12 is a literal child... I'm sorry for the women in these men's lives.
Yes, they treat sex as a vital necessity, like eating. I guess anything that increases their chances of getting laid works for them.
Yea
lol was the sub PPD?
Yes!
And there's also a somewhat similar but more recent one, PsycheOrSike.
Because of the situations you described, I often think that humanity doesn't deserve to have sexual desire. It's too misused.
This is how sex should be:
https://preview.redd.it/q00ejpqw36cg1.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=203dff80fe8928c148156ae88cb98c020889e733
1- So... Is meeting someone just for sex considered wrong? I imagine that it could happen more in a more gender-equal society.
2- I was considering posting on /changemyview about me having a bad view of human sexual desire, but my problems are about patriarchy.
1- I guess not necessarily.
As long as both people are honest about their intentions and practice protected, safe, and consensual sex in a respectful manner, I think that's totally fine.
2- I don't know this sub very well, but I think men might get defensive or even hostile if you start blaming patriarchy.
But if you're ready for that, then go for it! You might still get a few interesting opinions in the comments.
I thought like that because you brought up intimacy and bond, which are bigger in people who are closer.
Yes, you're probably right that the bond and intimacy between close partners is usually stronger than that between random people. However, in theory, casual sex could be the same way if both people want it to be.
Yes omg and I'm so tired of being screamed at that SEX WORK IS WORK or that COAL MINERS SELL THEIR BODIES TOO and getting called a swerf. I'm not excluding sex workers I'm trying to argue for stronger protections! Nobody is saying sex work isn't work...but it's undeniable that women are coerced and exploited and trafficked in sex work. And you know what, miners are also coerced and exploited and THAT IS ALSO BAD. They can both be bad and we can want more rights and protections for all the bad things people do to each other! We should not be encouraging or normalizing "choices" people are forced to make that result in deep and lasting harm when the alternative is starvation.
Oof the kink wheels 🫣
It’s disheartening to come to trollx of all places and see women looking down their noses at other women.
It's not looking down on other women. You don't need be a functionally asexual butch to be a "real" feminist, but not every choice a woman makes is inherently feminist.
And you can’t think of a way to make that point without belittling them and implying you are their mental better? I don’t necessarily disagree with you even, just your tone here in one of the few places on reddit where I expect women to be respected was… sad.
Patriarchal programming is very deep, and it influences your choices even when you're not aware of it. Because of this, it's not inherently feminist to be a stay-at-home mom or a sex worker or wear a hijab.
That’s a better way to begin than whatever squidward was doing. That’s all I meant. Good luck. I hope you reach a wider audience as you fine tune your approach.
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As I said in another comment chain, it's not about shaming women at all; it's about understanding that our choices don't exist in a vacuum. Would we still be "choosing" to shave or wear makeup if patriarchal beauty standards didn't exist? (I know I wouldn't). Would women still "choose" to be sex workers if the pressures of living under capitalism were removed?
Radical feminists aren't saying "you suck if you wear makeup". Rather, we're focusing on abolishing the patriarchal structures that make women feel obligated to do all these things, rather than dismissing all of it as a neutral "choice" and allowing those oppressive structures to keep existing. That is why we are critical of "choice feminism"-- because it doesn't challenge the patriarchy at all, and, in fact, tends to empower it.
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I respect your viewpoint completely. For me, being a radical feminist vs a liberal/"choice" feminist in this context is just a matter of being aware of the patriarchy's influence. Would you ever casually "feel like shaving" your legs if that just wasn't a thing that women ever did, for instance? I'm now aware of just how insidious societal misogyny is and how it can cause us to invent justifications for ourselves that feel organic, but aren't. I, like many others, thought that I just "liked" wearing makeup until I did some serious reflection and broke though the several layers of literal brainwashing society had inflicted upon me to make me feel that way.
Now that I see all of this for what it is, of course, I can't go back. I don't want to take choices away from any woman. I just now have the proper tools and insight to place criticism where it belongs.
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Hi, I am not trying to argue with you or debate or anything like that. I just want to offer my perspective as a trans person on something you said.
A big reason trans people gravitate towards conservative gender roles and expectations is that we aren’t gendered correctly unless we do. I see why that perpetuates those roles and expectations, and how that reinforces patriarchal values, but I don’t know what else we’re supposed to do then. Am I supposed to change nothing about myself and just yell, “actually I am a woman!!!!” at everyone around me while I do traditionally masculine things? Probably not. So what do I do then?
That’s all I wanted to say. We don’t all have cartoonish views of womanhood we’re just forced into roles deemed feminine by the patriarchy.
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Hold on a sec, you said you don't want to associate with terfs, but you realize what you said here is the entire extent of what they believe, right? I have a more generous view of trans people than you do (I believe sex dysphoria is a real condition distinct from regular dysmorphia, and that transition is probably the most effective way to treat it. I also think that most people transition because of dysphoria and not because of stereotypes), and yet most people would still consider me a terf because I think misogyny is based on sex, not gender.
Edit: here is a detailed summary of what terfs believe about sex vs gender. If you think there's any more to it, or that the conservatives on Twitter coopting the label have anything to do with radical feminism, then you've been the victim of propaganda.
Edit 2: And she blocked me lmao
Sorry sis but you're probably a terf whether you want to believe it or not. The only acceptable trans affirming belief nowadays is that you can literally change your sex.
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How do you define someone's sex? Based on their chromosomes? There are many, many people in this world who do not have XX or XY genotypes. Further, there are people who have (for example) an XY genotype with androgen insensitivity syndrome, who may go years without realizing that their "sex" (if genotype is our definition) is male.
Or do you go by phenotypic expression of primary and/or secondary sexual characteristics at birth? Does that mean that intersex people have no sex at all because they don't have genital/gonadal tissue that is legible to you? Or are the plastic surgeons who historically modify infants' genitals to "correct" their intersex-ness get to determine their sex (if phenotypic expression of primary sexual characteristics is our definition)? Or does that count as "artificial"?
If we're sticking purely in the biology vein, we can also look at hormones, which yes, can be "artificially" changed. Does that mean cis women who go on hormone replacement therapy after menopause now magically become "artificial" women?
The "fact" that you can only change your sex "artificially" has an awful lot of holes in it, and more importantly, I'm not sure that it's dispositive of absolutely anything at all.
Yeah. Gender stereotypes do harm people more often than not though. Since they then seep into societal expectations (ex- women are better with people, hence they should be trad wives and handle children type shi, or women are the fairer sex, hence they wear more makeup, so then women who don't wear makeup get less attention at work, are taken less seriously, so on and so forth.) it's a vicious cycle. Also, the reason why I made this meme was I recently got into arguments with liberal feminists who defended women with enough autonomy wearing niqabs and even hijabs (in more developed countries than the ones where burqas and niqabs are mandatory). It was really baffling.