We just watched the entire three series, and although I really enjoyed it and – I think – took it for what it was, I also feel somewhat conflicted about The Orville. I thought the writing and overall production really got ramped up after Season one (with one or two exceptions, but you'd expect that in any series). While obviously Star Trek inspired, I liked that in key points they deviated from the example in the way the world was built. No beaming shit over to begin with; it's oddly refreshing to see people rely on more realistic modes of transport, which can be used to add some tension to the story as well. The relationships between people seem to be more fleshed out than they are in ST. There are some obviously parallels between ST and TO characters, but often I find the Orville version more convincing. Isaac is one example, where I think his exceptional status is exploited to much better effect than Data's on ST. Finally, the variation of lifeforms on the Orville (not outside, but I'll get back to that) is much more interesting than the obvious variation-though-forehead-ornaments style of ST. Finally, I thought the Krill were interesting antagonists.
But there are niggles as well. I didn't really understand the consistent obsession with late 20th century popular culture (subjecting any race you want to ally yourself with to see Annie seems like a risk not worth taking; I at least was firmly in camp Krill for the remainder of the episode). Also, the frequency with which the entire universe revolved around Orville, and particularly the relationship between Ed and Kelly, was frankly a bit jarring. The solution for the Kaylon threat in S3 was very sudden and as near to a deus ex machina as the series came. Finally, I didn't really care for the music. It had the right symphonic scale for the genre, but was generally unmemorable and tended to weirdly veer off into a romcom atmosphere every now and then.
But the one thing that really irked me was how small the Planetary Union seemed to be. If you watch Star Trek, Starfleet feels massive. Whether in TOS, TNG, DS9 or even VOY, everyone regularly speaks to colleagues within the fleet, they have contact with various admirals, there are many variations of starships and outposts. In TO we rarely see contact with other ships, they almost always interact with the same people which are also apparently in charge of the whole Union. Although the Orville is first given to Ed as not particularly important, we see him and the Orville acting as the fleet's most important captain and ship, sitting in on critical diplomatic talks (even Gordon!). Finally, the Union council is similar to that for a moderately sized town. Only very rarely does it feel as though this is an alliance of many worlds, and together with fact that the Orville is they key to everything this is a real shortcoming of the series and one that really detracts from its impact.
Star Trek Enterprise forces every person on the ship to watch early 20th century public domain movies every week. Star Trek Voyager is obsessed with early 20th century pulp. DS9 resurrects a 20th century sport. Everybody listens to 20th century or earlier music in all the series. The 20th century media stuff is just a jokey take on how extreme Star Trek goes on that. (And of course, like Star Trek, they can't afford to burn money having somebody invent future arts and entertainment for the sake of brief throw-away scenes and they want to use something the audience can relate to.)
Can't wait until Star Trek in 2062 when TOS and TMP enter the public domain. I can imagine the crew watching it and being like "huh, this is weirdly accurate".
Usually the show is quite good as separating parody from the more serious elements, but this is so overwhelming that I'm not sure I buy this explanation. The more so since ST doesn't exclusively focus on that period, but earlier eras of popular culture as well (e.g., Sherlock Holmes, Mark Twain) that we don't see in The Orville.
You can't tell me you don't see that making Dolly Parton the voice of an alien revolution is supposed to be funny, for example. I'm sure they doubled down on 20th century because that makes the parody funnier than if you sprinkle in previous centuries, it's trying to be blatant about pandering to the audience's memories.
I don't deny that, but that doesn't mean all of it is supposed to be comical. Although subjecting the Krill to Annie was hilarious. Speaks in their favor they didn't abandon negotiations immediately.
"The orphans prophecy of doom was extremely haunting." (Yes I know I'm misquoting that, but it tore me up)
Yeah, that was some great writing. Perhaps the problem is also that as the plotlines became more intricate and serious, it also became more difficult to distinguish comical elements from more serious ones. Particularly if you're not as deeply familiar with American popular culture (like me).
I think the reason Annie specifically was chosen was due to that song, and the Krill's issues with sunlight.
Yeah it was one of those jokes that also made a great point. It showed that there are differences between the two cultures, that may not be intuitive, that can cause massive misunderstandings when they are initiating diplomacy, so they need to tread carefully.
They didn't want the show to be expressly comical. That's why there was such a sharp tonal shift in the second season: they realized that they were making 'Family Guy IN SPACE!', which wasn't what they were aiming for.
I don't think they were.
Bortus's daughter was like the third episode of the first season. That plotline, those themes, and especially the episode's ending, are not in any way, shape or form "Family Guy in space".
I really think that is the series' strongest arc. Followed closely by Isaac's development.
They were never making “Family Guy in Space” in the first place. While it’s true they loaded up the pilot with funny stuff to sell the series, once they had Fox hooked, the change began. The series still retains its comedic qualities but it is not a comedy.
I suppose I wasn't clear enough:
When the producers looked back at the first season, they realized that they were unintentionally making 'Family Guy in Space', which was the opposite of the comedic tone they wanted.
There was nothing unintentional. Seth and his EPs were following Seth’s plan. They hooked Fox to buy the show then started changing toward what they wanted. The downside was Fox constantly in Seth’s ear going “make it funny.”
It’s kind of both irony and humor. Funny that it’s Dolly Parton, but also the fact a 20th/21st century Terran musician’s songs stir a cultural revolution on another planet 400 years later is one of many times Seth drops in what affect humans have on alien culture.
Not many episodes compared to most Star Trek seasons. Not much of a chance to build that universe in.
The richness of the universe doesn't depend on the number of episodes. Have your crew communicate with different people and show a greater variety of ships in half of those 30-ish episodes and the general impression already becomes much richer. For instance, don't make the same three admirals also the Union's diplomats and council members, introduce a few conversations with other crews, and you already have something that looks very different.
Edit: example
Again, that stuff happens when a series has 24 plus episodes a season. When each season only has 10ish episodes you need to spend as much screen time as possible telling the stories you wanted. You don't have the time to add random interaction with another species that does nothing for the plot.
Sorry, that's no excuse - the depth of world-building is not necessarily proportionate to screentime available. A series like Game of Thrones had even fewer episodes a season (of comparable length), and their world-building was stupidly complex but still understandable (well, for a long time anyway) – and I could give other examples. And the reason it bugs me is that it's such a distraction in an otherwise very enjoyable series.
The world building of game of thrones really isn't that deep. You have european mediavel cultures with dragons and some pagan gods. Throw in a basic mongel like culture and some vaguely Asian city states that never really get explored.
That's already considerably more complex (plus interwoven storylines) than The Orville.
Not really it’s basic as fuck and everyone knows it.
Ok, so if TNG was just Season 1, would you say it had done as much world building as it did? Or would it feel drastically smaller.
The Orville season 1 and 2 are the the same count as season 1. All three seasons total less than 2 seasons of TNG - a show many say didnt hit its stride until season 3.
So no Borg, no Klingon council drama or civil war. Orville did fine in the space it had.
Trek also re-used admirals routinely - Nechayev in particular showed up a lot.
Borg appear in TNG season 2. But the issue is scale, not narrative quality. TNG Starfleet feels like a much bigger entity from the outset.
True, by episode count they're still not there yet by I think 5 episodes?
And I simply dont agree with that at all. Early show its "weve never seen them before!" "We haven't encountered them in a century!" Etc. The federation seems much smaller at the start. By the Dominion wars its grown, but not from the jump.
They're an exploration vessel so they're further out than the main fleet typically goes. It's like Lewis & Clark the point is to see what's beyond the union's borders, so naturally they'll be on their own until they finish their assignment and can go home.
Also I think the point was they're an ordinary vessel but due to extraordinary circumstances they unexpectedly stumble into, they end up doing diplomacy, etc. like the same vibe as that famous quote "some men are born great, others have greatness thrust upon them"
I think that’s one of the reasons so many people who might not otherwise be a fan of a show like The Orville love it is because the characters are relatable and not paragons of humanity like many Star Trek characters. My wife for example has no love for Star Trek and zero interest in it. But she loves The Orville. For the most part the crew is a bunch of everymen/women. Ed once had high expectations put on him. His divorce left him depressed and an alcoholic. Kelly had guilt issues. Gordon was an underachieving drinker. John played the average Joe to hide the fact he’s a genius. Alara lacked confidence. Bortus was part of a tumultuous marriage. But when the situation demands it, as alex9001 mentioned, they are able to rise to the level they are actually capable of.
Might want to try her on Lower Decks
She doesn’t like cartoons. Plus she wouldn’t get any of the in-jokes at all.
Always said that The Orville is The Enterprise you would actually want to go to work on.
Yeah I love Star Trek, but sometimes the "humanity evolved past those petty shit" attitude of the characters can sound a bit holier than thou.
Ding! 😎
Totally agree about the 20th century references and the Kaylon resolution though
I’m probably being much more serious than needs be…
The Orville is a show written for 21st century “Family Guy” audiences, and is intended to be lighthearted. It’s trying to form a bridge for the viewers to relate so they can concentrate on the character drama and situational comedy. Trying to shoehorn quasi futuristic for verisimilitude would alienate viewers and detract from the aesthetic. If you’re watching it for the deep future lore and not for the character development, you’re probably better off watching something else.
It may have started out like that, but as S2 and S3 progressed they obviously became more ambitious and more serious, and while they ditched some elements more extensive world-building might have been warranted.
Honestly I think you not being American is a huge part of why you don’t get why it’s so beloved by us.
I think I get that, and I don't even disagree. It's just ... a bit much every now and then, even if it should be meant as parody.
I mean tbh Americans are a bit much now and then lol
How is that any different than how we enjoy Roman and Medieval artwork and music?
I was thinking about this earlier… We view them through a modern lens. We have the benefit of historical information to give them context and intermediate and contemporary art with which to compare. Renaissance faires show a desire to emulate those eras, albeit the “fun” aspect of medieval life.
The twentieth century is the first time we had “perfect” records of culture. Much of our media and history could be archived for future consumption with little to no loss. It stands to reason that 25th century folk would be obsessed with 20-21st century media like we are with Shakespeare era culture.
Going off the union council scenes this is a smaller union than the federation. I think we are talking around 20 different species in those scenes as council members. However don’t see Yahts people there so they likely are others that don’t have a seat for some reason.
That said I doubt we are going into triple digits.
It would also explain, how Krill and the Moklans can be such big forces in the Galaxy. One would assume, that like 200 worlds banded together would just crush any hostile faction by sheer size. Even if some of those worlds are purely civillian oriented, basically every civilisation has to have at least some history with conflict.
But if the Union only consists of like 30 species and some of them openly rejecting military (or are simply unfit to join a military built like the Unions) its a lot more believable.
If I had to compare the Planetary Union to anything, it would be similar in size and scope as the Citadel Council from the Mass Effect game series, in regards to HOW it's structured...only a few races actually have council seats, even though many races exist (some due to being primarily hostile, some due to "not being worthy enough in the current councils' eyes).
As for the territory controlled, there is only "Council Space", which is roughly 1/3 of the galaxy*, while the rest of the galaxy is controlled by other "powers", some friendly, some neutral, some "pirate-like" (think along the lines of Orion pirates from Star Trek, but uglier), and some are outright hostile (um...sort of...kinda hard to explain to someone who isn't a Mass Effect fan).
*I put this explanation at the bottom, in case anyone didn't want to read it up there.
For those unaware of Mass Effect, there are these devices in various places in space (Mass Relays) that connect together, allowing the entire galaxy access. Within Mass Effect lore, it's complicated, but the devices slingshot ships between them (think of it as a space "Stargate", but not as a wormhole).*
You see, space is big,...
Really, really big. You might think it's a long walk to the post office...
I think the Orville is different from Star Trek in that they were NOT supposed to be the flagship crew or really do anything super important but stumbled into situations that required them to take action, and those situations led to others.
They first got tangled with the Moclan government when Topa was born and they fought against the forced surgery. Then they repeatedly ran into trouble with them because of that.
Ed and Gordon got sent to spy on the Krill ship solely because of their nearness to an incident. They met Teleya, and the rest is history.
Isaac was put on the Orville probably because the Union assumed he wouldn’t do much damage there and could get an accurate picture of a somewhat average crew. But they didn’t realize Isaac was a spy and that the Kaylon would use the ship to invade the Union. That’s how they got mixed up with the Kaylon.
Huh, I get the impression the Union is much larger than Star Trek's Federation. Unfeasably large tbh. I think 70% of it is that The Orville is better about depicting the realistic scale of a space navy. Recently in both we saw whats supposedly the "entire" fleet of the Union(Identity Part 2) and Federation(Picard: Vox & The Last Generation). Visually the Union fleet is absolutely massive, thousands of ships. And thats without the "national guard" forces we know some members have, the Moclans and Xeleyans apparently have their own fleets comparable to the official Union navy. While the Federation looks like it has 200 at most?
I was under the impression for Annie that they basically just went to Broadway and that was what happened to be playing at the time. Its not really much different from a classical music concert or Shakespeare theatre today.
The Union council seems to be analogous to the US Senate, with 2 members per species. They probably also have a separate legislature with more members.
S3's ending is unfortunate. They got a limited number of episodes, and renewal was less likely than cancelation. They had to wrap up what they started in S2, probably intending it to have stretched for 3-4 seasons rather than the two we get. And the made the decision, correctly imo, that the season ending should be made as a suitable series ending in case the show doesn't get renewed. Star Trek never gives falling action for its series so this is a great change, but it basically stole an episode from the Kaylon war plot.
Many ships, yes, but they all look the same. ST battles can also have many ships, but with far greater variety, which would make sense because not every ship has the same role. But my main beef is that the same three or four admirals are almost all that we see of the fleet, but they also function as the main diplomats and as council members. Hardly any other senior brass, or other crews.
I mean, by that logic, the Empire in Star Wars should feel small, even though theyre many orders of magnitude larger than starfleet. And a very similar "lack of other brass" was true fir 90% of Star Trek too.
The Empire has a variety of different models of vessels, though. Also, you don't need to defend every aspect of The Orville. I really like the show, but I do think these aspects could have been done better.
The obvious reason, in real life anyway is cost, the same way that in Picard season one, in the season finale, it was a fleet all of the same ship because it was cheaper for them to render and model one ship with 20 copies versus creating 20 individual models to render.
In the universe, however, military tend to standardize. The Orville obviously went a little bit too standardized, with their essentially being only two or three variations of a species or factions starship.
But if you look at the empire in Star Wars, or even just in real life, looking at various current navies.
For military vessels, there tends to be much less variation, and ships that do a similar role, tends to be just made from the same class, or an older class that has since being replaced with a newer one.
I think actually Star Trek kind of overdoes this in the other direction. There are too many different classes of starships in the Federation. Almost every single other Federation ship we meet tends to be a different class. Yes there are repeats, but at the same time there are far too many different classes of ships that essentially serve similar overlapping functions.
And it can’t all be explained by just older ships that haven’t been retired yet.
On the flipside, I really like that star fleet does refit classes, which actually makes a whole ton of sense because that’s exactly what navies in real life do. As a ship ages, it’s expected to serve for decades, and therefore the idea that the ship will be upgraded and refit throughout its lifetime is just an accepted fact.
In reality, though, despite the wish to standardize you also get that several generations of equipment overlap. When I was in our AF we had outgoing F-104s and incoming F-16s, in addition to some F-5s. The Germans also incorporated a bunch of Soviet planes ones in the GDR, got Typhoons and still used F-104s (although not if they could avoid it). And that's only the fighers. There were also transport planes, AWACS contraptions and heaven know what other sorts of equipment. Reality is often chaotic.
Not that I don't agree that ST overdoes this at times. But one of the motivations was probably also dramatic: to make a ship identifiable as belonging to a certain captain or antagonist - see Khan's Reliant, which is basically the Enterprise upside-down. In that sense it is telling that the Orville is really the only ship in the entire fleet that we ever become familiar with, so there's no necessity to diversify.
You’re correct on both counts. Orville doesn’t go far enough, and Star Trek can go too far. Star Trek usually does it because in most situations, starship interactions are done at very small scale. So you have “hero“ ships. So you need to make them easily identifiable. And because of this more one off nature, it allows them to be a little bit more creative when they need to add a new one in.
I think part of that issue comes with Seth liking recurring characters over one-offs. Star Trek will show an admiral once and never again 85% of the time while I can only think of two TO admirals with only one appearance.
In universe maybe it can be explained that Ed really has no reason to interact with an admiral outside of his chain of command, which is typically how real world militaries work, admirals and generals aren't a plug and play hive mind like they are in ST. 1-Star Admiral A is in command of Fleet X, he reports to 2-star Admiral B, and so on to the 5-star Admirals who report to the Commander in Chief who is probably Halsey even though its not directly stated in that exact wording, contexts suggests he is. Unless its like the US where the president is technically considered the "CinC." Then Halsey is cabinet member in charge of defense, and does everything a typical CinC would but without the title and with a politician who can overrule him on a whim.
Thinking of it in business terms, its like working in a store, and the general manager of a different location of the same store comes in and tells you to do something. While they can technically do that, its going to cause issues with the employee establishing the manager has the authority to do what they're saying, and issues with the employee's direct manager being jumped over. I think of Admiral Howland from a Tale of Two Topas who dresses down Ed and Kelly but iirc ultimately doesn't do anything more than that. The show frames it as her agreeing with their actions but needing to go through formalities to keep up appearances, but I also read this scene as also having an element of her not wanting to pick a fight over issuing even a token formal discipline with people who report directly to other admirals.
Even in real life too those terminal career admirals and generals(3/4/5 star) play large roles in diplomacy and public relations, so thats fairly accurate. But Perry being the chief diplomat is unrealistic. The Orville never mentions any kind of structure in the Admiralty and they all appear to have 5-star insignia, probably an oversight, cost cutting, or Seth just not thinking about how the Union actually works since its not important for what the show aims to do.
This is also my biggest dislike of the universe. Every ship looks like The Orville and I find that very boring. Also we never see or interact with other crew and I enjoy it when we get to get a peak into how other Starfleet officers are.
If they ever come back I would really like them to expand the Union.
The similarity of Union vessels is due to the requirements of Quantum Drive. Plus it gives a familiarity. You can tell who the Good Guys are easily.
I do like how they at least tried to explain in universe why there are these big similarities between different starships, even between different species.
I'm sure they got explanations, I simply do not like it and think its quite boring.
Oh well. 🤷🏻
I understand that, but that doesn't mean that all ships have to have the exact same shape and size. You can say the same about ST, but they still manage a certain variety there.
All ships do not have the same size nor shape, especially since the Leviathan class is twice the size of the Exploratory class and not as sleek looking. The scout ships like the late USS Roosevelt, are slightly smaller than the Exploratory class and have only two Quantum loops.
It’s definitely one of the least realistic parts of the series, but I think it’s largely down to money. The creators had a limited VFX budget and this is what we got. If they had a much larger budget, we probably would’ve seen more variation among union ships particularly differences in how different classes look.
However, it is a bit of a take on kit bashing in Star Trek. Where are you end up with a nebula class because you’ve got a galaxy class saucer section and some nacelles and you just throw it together.
To be fair, this may have been intentional. Mercer himself said there are 3000 ships in a quadrant, “which isn’t really all that much when you stop to think about it.” (A liberal estimate of the stars in our galaxy, quartered to be a quadrant, would put that at 1 ship for every 33,333,333.33 stars)
Focusing on the 20th century allowed them to film episodes with a limited budget. Movie lots and limited off-site filming is basically what they had to work with and avoid a bunch of CGI.
That era of media leading up to their first contact was the last that was purely human, before humans in the show met aliens and began to share culture with them, so maybe some crew like to have that connection to their roots. There's also people IRL who are obsessed with historical periods.
I think Seth would be flattered to see that you’re considering his show in the same class of sci fi as Star Trek, to be honest
Particularly in Season 2 and 3, the production values and much of the writing warrant it. And, as I said, some concepts are executed better than they are in ST.
I love the music and the emphasis that Mr. MacFarlane places on it (and the bucks it probably costs).
Don't get me wrong, I love the use of grand symphonic gestures in sci-fi; it's just that I don't find the music itself particularly outstanding. It's fine, but I find it lacks the memorable thematic hooks that other sci-fi franchises have. But that is of course also a highly subjective experience. And yeah, it was pricey.
I really liked Orville. I started watching with the main thought it was a crew in space, similar to a lot of crews in space, but I always tried to just see it as a separate show. I thought the creators/writers did a fantastic job. I really wished it continued.
Your points are mostly true but about the orville being the most important ship in the union,i think its reasonable and its well implemented,it first orville was just a normal mid level exploretory vassel which was destined to be destroyed in a blackmatter storm while housing the soon-to-be time traveling devices,when (the girl from the future i forget her name) saved orville it caused a butterfly effect which changed there history fundamentally, first it Possibly coused the kylon invasion becouse issac survived and by issac insight they made the time traveling devices which gave the union quite a edge and the ship thats house the devices is orville soo its become a very important ship in the fleet. And all the weird stuff that orville have finded like two dimensional space,and capitan eds lobby and close relationships with the Admiralty and eds relationships with talia maje them the most important ship in the union which we know in not that strong with the fact that krill can take them solo.
I'll say, I did feel many times while watching the show that the Orville is for the Planetary Union what in Spore the player's ship is to their empire in the space stage of the game, where they're seemingly the sole representative of their government and the only crew that does anything, ever.