I love this album. It gets dismissed a lot. I wonder if everyone has listened in full with an open mind? Some people complain about the production. The production is different, compressed, dense. Almost artificial sounding, but I like it. I think it was intentional. It makes for a dense, tangled, mashed-together sound. The songs, in my opinion, are great. All of them. There's the full Cure range, from slow/dreamy with Underneath the Stars, to poppy, to furious. Porl Thompson is on it, with loads of Wish-ish angry wah-wah guitar, which I love. I love this album. It's in my top 5 or 6 Cure albums actually. What do you think and why?
I agree with you, it has something of the album Wish, I like it a lot too, I don't think it should be considered The Cure's best album, but it's good, it has some weak points but it's not horrible as many think.
All the more power to you if you love this album. Personally don't but it does hold a handful fantastic songs that I fully appreciate. Aside from Underneath the Stars, Sirensong is amazing and I unironically love Freakshow. And it ends in a fantastic way with The Scream and It's Over so yeah, I don't hate 4:13 Dream albeit it's far from my favorite
Nice to see another Freakshow fan. 🤘
My favorite Cure stuff is the psychedelic rock. To me, as a fan, there’s nothing better than when they crank the guitars up and get weird. 😂🤘🤘🤘🎸🎸🔥
I like 4:13 Dream a lot. Underneath The Stars is one of my all time favorite songs.
I just listened to this album six times this week. I love it.
I like Underneath the Stars, The Reasons Why, Sirensong, The Real Snow White, and the four B-sides.
It's a fantastic album. I've been a fan since 1990, and, honestly, I think it has some of the best songs since Disintegration on it. I think I'm gonna put it on now.
whispers there is no bad Cure album
Imo the self-titled especially, and Wild Mood Swings, and for me, Bloodflowers and The Top too, are below the others and comparatively weak listens as albums, though all have some good tracks, and the band doesn't do terrible.
Self Titled I've defended many times over in the same way as 4:13 Dream. Wild Mood Swings is a mess but with some amazing songs. Bloodflowers is a Top 5 album for me.
I've tried them all repeatedly, and keep ending up where I am, but it'd be boring if everyone's experience was the same.
Oh, I love The Top, but the rest I agree with you about. The whole album's existence is justified by The Caterpillar and Piggy in the Mirror, as far as I'm concerned.
Dressing Up, Caterpillar and Piggy in the Mirror are perfect, amazing tracks. The rest are sloppy and hardly listenable for me. That's 3/10! That's why it's weak imo.
Japanese Whispers, on the other hand from the same period, is great from start to finish. I count it as an album.
Most underrated is Wild mood swings
WMS reminds me of The Top, kind of a hair-down goof-off album. They're not my favorites (though I like several songs from both), but I can understand the appeal of the goofiness. Feel a bit the same about the self-titled one, though I think it's somewhat genuinely weaker, like more of an actual failed attempt, for me anyway.
I have to disagree :-) The Top is brilliant, and gets better everytime you listen to it. WMS, the opposite :-)
I can't agree on The Top (I just listened to it again :)
Shake Dog Shake sounds like one of the forgettable tracks on KMKMKM. Bird Mad Girl...not for me. Wailing Wall...atonal, middle eastern, dull. Give Me It sounds like the Pornography band trying to do an uptempo track and failing. Then, Dressing Up, Caterpillar and Piggy In the Mirror are incredible, perfect songs. Then Empty World, a British jig. No thanks. Then two messy, atonal goof-tracks that I don't like, Bananafishbones and the title track. So 3 good tracks in 10. Not a good album for me.
And on WMS, I like Jupiter Crash, Want, even the 13th, and probably one or two others. About the same ratio.
But, everyone hears different things in and gets different things from music!
It's cool they cater to different tastes :-)
100%
Includes the ultimate underrated single too. It was a strange time for the band but I love the album (except that pos Gone)
I like Gone fine. It’s not the worst on there.
I really love it too — and I remember getting it on release day. The sound quality is pretty fatiguing — but the album itself is great, and really works as an ‘album’ experience too.
Agree 100%. It's wish part 2 and really good actually
No that’s the Top
The Top gets lots of support though. The overdog of the underdogs. And I'm not a big The Top fan, as an album.
I'm a younger/newer cure fan and this was the first album I listened from them, so it has a special place on my heart. I always found it weird to not see it being talked about... The Hungry Ghost and The Only One are some of my favorite songs from them
I love Hungry Ghost, and Robert S. picked it as his favorite from the album. It's one of the few Cure songs I can think of that's poppy in sound, and quite serious philosophically and politically in lyrics, which makes it interesting to me, aside from just sounding great.
Hungry Ghost is my stand out track from the album. It’s the haunting instrumental that I love. This is always on my Cure playlist.
It doesn’t sound artificial to me, it sounds like the drums were left at demo stage, and very digital indeed, but that’s what I like about it. The songs are good. Also some great bsides (Without you !)
I like a lot of it. The Scream is easily one of my favorite cure songs ever. Sirensong is adorable. Underneath the stars is a fantastic opener. Hungry ghost is catchy and deep. This here and now with you could easily be on any 80's cure. Solid album.
I love underneath the stars, the real snow White and it's over BUT the production is a disaster and to me the album versions are unlistenable. Guitars sound like a rocking chair and Smith is yelling at me. There are amazing live versions though : secret show & MSG The cure rock the garden. They hint at a top form Cure album with a good production
To me, the production adds good spice where the songs, which are mostly conventionally structured (without being over-predictable), might, with too much order going on everywhere, become a little too safe. But I haven't heard the live versions and compared.
It's not in my top 5 but I do love it. And Pearl is a main reason for it - will always be my fave Cure guitarist (other than Robert of course!)
Underneath the Stars is probably my favorite Cure song. Hungry Ghost is pretty great too. Not really a fan of the rest of the album
I think it’s the worst album by them and I am glad someone likes it.
Care to describe why you think self titled is better? (No pressure. If not, that's fine, just curious.)
That’s probably a 50/50 toss up for me. To me they are both the worse albums. I like alt.end more than I like anything off the other album. So that probably makes it better (for me). Just my preference.
That's probably a high-percentage view basically. I think liking 4:13 may have to do with appreciating the guitar-heavy, Wish-era Cure sound.
In my opinion, The Cure and Iron Maiden are like two sides of the same coin. They both started around the same time, and in my opinion, both bands do not have any actual “bad” albums. But, both bands tend to have albums that get overlooked by a lot of people, and 4:13 is no exception.
I like me some Maiden 👍. Dickenson and pre 👍
I even like Blaze Bayley’s two albums. Both bands, l like all of their albums.
You've got me thinking about great bands for longevity. Maiden and the Cure are two really good ones. Not so easy to think of more. Maybe Rolling Stones (lots of bad, but still can rock occasionally). J Mascis with Dinosaur Jr, for me. Kinda want to say Pink Floyd, even though nothing very good since Division Bell, if you even agree with that. I love the edm band The Orb and they're still putting out good stuff, since '90. I like late Bob Dylan stuff pretty well. I like Bryan Ferry from Roxy Music's late stuff. Not that many stay strong that long though!
I am personally really into keeping up with the bands that I like. I like to see if where they are at now meets me where I am at now, the same way as they did when we were all younger. I have been a fan of the cure, Metallica, and iron maiden since about 1989, when I started really getting into music, and I have kept up with all three of those bands almost the whole time, and they all still meet me now where I am at.
Metallica really know how to write a song.
Oh, I meant to mention Motorhead too. They never flagged.
I really need to go deeper down the rabbit hole with Motörhead. I’ve only ever really spent time with any of their music from like 1985 on back. But you are 100% correct. They were always very consistent.
I feel like that’s Wild Mood Swings
WMS is a weird album. The songs are all well-crafted, and it's long. A lot of work went into it! To me, the title is wrong. The mood swings are not wild at all. Wish had wild mood swings: from genuinely intense apocalyptic decay and fury on Edge of Deep Green Sea, to genuine happy zest for life on Doing the Unstuck. Now that's a wild swing.
WMS has a MUCH tamer overall mood. The whole vibe feels shallow, even insincere, tongue-and-cheek, ironic. It's a cheeky album. i think the title should have been something like "Fun!" with obvious irony. Or "Circus" or "Fair." It feels like a day at the fair to me. Shiny and shallow. At the end you feel drained, robbed of some dollars, and full of junk food.
It's not a serious Cure album, for me. I think the title should have advertised that. It's got it's attractions and pleasures. It has it's place. It shouldn't have lied to me about containing wild mood swings. I don't think it's underrated. It's an ok, low-energy album. A toss-off. Fine for what it is, just misadvertised.
I think it's underrated. The first half is better than the second half. But it's a solid album. The Hungry Ghost is an absolute banger that no one ever talks about.
Switch? This Here and Now With You? Scream? It's Over? How can you not like these? :)
Sleep When I'm Dead bops! Perfect Boy, I could understand not liking, but I'm fine with it.
Where did I say I didn't like those songs? Those songs are good, even Perfect Boy, I just prefer first half. (In case you didn't notice I'm on your side lol.)
ha, nice whoops. i just love the outtro of Scream and It's Over a lots
Yeah, all good stuff. My personal theory is that many people's perception of an album get framed by the album cover. I think it's a silly album cover and that's why the music is dismissed.
Ooh that's an interesting theory. Is it Porl/Pearl's artwork, like Wish? Yeah, I'd agree it's not the strongest of their covers.. Oh dang, It's Robert with 23 of his neices and nephews.. wild, didn't know that
Yeah, Wish looks fine because the colours harmonize and create an overall pleasing image to eyes in repose. 4:13 has no such aesthetic and just looks like something a 4 year old takes home from a day at nursery.
😂 you're onto something i think..
"to the eye in repose.." I've never heard that phrase, interesting. Like a subconscious initial-impact impression, maybe
yeah, like seeing it but not looking at it.
I'm being a bit glib but I do believe the album artwork creates the initial mood that influences how we perceive the songs. And that prejudice can be hard to overcome. It took me a while to get into 4:13 and it was only the critics reviews that made me persist beyond the first 2 listens. My initial feelings were "this is trash" and the album cover most likely initiated that feeling. Funnily enough SOALW has a very sophisticated looking cover that appealed to me and on first listen I thought was going to be a very quality album. After about 10 listens I realised it was a bunch of really dull songs. So the prejudice of the album art can work both ways. Either way there's no remedy but to give the album a good 7-8 listens so the songs themselves can emerge and be appreciated for what they really are.
I think SOALW backs up the cover art, but they are simple-ish songs structurally, and slow. It reminds me of the Faith album, which I also love (you?). Funny that you like 4:13 and not SOALW so much...a bit unique I mean.
Trynna think of other albums possibly underrated for bad covers. I've got AC/DC Flick of the Switch; Led Zeppelin, Presence; Dinosaur Jr., Hand it Over (art also by the band); Faith by the Cure, maybe; Peter Gabriel, 2 (Scratch); Underworld, Beaucoup Fish; Husker Du, New Day Rising (all their covers were bad). Interesting idea.
I refuse to listen to anything past "Wish."
Took em damn near 30 years for them to redeem themselves with "Songs of a Lost World."
I was irritated enough with the 16 years to 4:13. WMS and Bloodflowers were duds. Give 4:13 a chance! :) Glad you appreciate SOALW.
I have listened to it many times with an open mind over the years and I still don't care for it. For me, 4:13 Dream and the Ross Robinson produced mess are the bottom two albums of The Cure's career, even over Wild Mood Swings. I don't think it's a coincidence the group didn't make a new album for some 16 years after these two duds.
The self-titled album is awful, for me. Their worst. Wild Mood Swings is way down there. I don't even like Bloodflowers. But 4:13 is different, imo.
I always want to ask people who don't like 4:13 if they think it's the songwriting or the production, because the production is pretty different, pretty in your face.
The songs are mostly upper tempo pop structured, so if that's not your brand of Cure, I can see that not being appealing to some.
I think the most underrated/least appreciated is the self-titled. Although I've read/heard it was a horrible experience working with Ross Robinson (basing most of my opinion from Roger O' Donell interviews), I think they were pushed creatively - not their typical sound but still them.
It is the first time I've felt excited by Jason's drumming and my listens focused on drums on certain tracks, just listen to Us or Them. Lyrically, I love it (it feels very poetic and don't see the "teenage emo" criticism people give it).
Transitioning to 4:13, the sound, imo, comes off as flatter. Drums on the opening and closing tracks are cool, but to me, it comes off as Jason trying to force the spark he had in the prior entry (nothing else stands out in his playing). I was excited for Pearl's return but don't feel the guitar magic I expected was there. Lush guitars on UTS nonetheless. Lyrically, I think it felt wanting and a potential all around banger was lost in Sleep When I'm Dead (puppys and kittens, please stop). He's written about them in High, Lovecats, others, but it didn't feel right on this track.
Despite 4:13's flaws, would I rather they not have put it out? Nope. My high school self would not have had the required heartache/pining track played to death without The Only One.
Love your thoughtful post. Made me want to dip into the self-titled album a bit again to see if I could hear what you're describing. I like some songs on self-titled, especially Anniversary. Many feel unfinished, for a Cure album, to me. Like demos more than album tracks. I think that's why I'm not drawn to it.
I like Jason's drumming generally even though he's not full of natural flourish like Boris. I do see that with more one-take simplicity on self-titled, Jason was able to play more loosely. But to me, the songs are too one-take-y, too underdeveloped for the band to sound its best.
I love Pearl's guitar on 4:13. She's just wearing out wah-wah pedals. I'm here for that all day. It's just my thing. I love Wish-era guitar-Cure.
You're right about the "flat" sound on 4:13. The production is weird. The instruments all sound mashed together and harsh and right up front. But I like the weird quality of it. Kind of abrasive.
I just like 4:13, and the songs feel fully baked, and good, to me, even if some Cure cliches found their way in lyrically. I like the uptempo guitar-heaviness and think it's well done and well realized on all 4:13 tracks.
I can see how some would like the self-titled album, the energy and looseness. It's just not for me so much.
There’s good songs rendered unlistenable by the utter crap production. Also removing the synths really limited the palette and the album sounds boring as a result
100% their best creative effort since Wish and many classic songs on there.
Not sure why every month we get the same statement and question. There’s nothing great about this album or the self titled one. It’s their worst two albums. Everyone has their own opinions but realistically speaking, to be considered underrated it needs moments of greatness and these albums do not compare to the great catalog of albums and song that the Cure own. If you want to say that “head on the door” or 17 seconds or the top are the most underrated albums then u have a conversation.
Those others, even The Top, are pretty universally, or at least widely, loved. To me, the self-titled, Wild Mood Swings, Bloodflowers and The Top are their weakest albums, and so not underrated so much, just weaker.
What turns you off about 4:13?
You said underrated, what’s really in the top: faith, pornography, kiss me kiss me, disintegration, wish. It’s a bad album and so is the self titled. It’s beneath their standards, they should never have released them, it’s not representative of their type of album and there’s nothing creative about it. I have a feeling that u never lived that era of the great albums by many artists, it was a competition every yr to have the best albums, best sounding and creative. If you don’t have standards then u don’t see when something is beneath their genius.
I agree about Faith. Faith is underrated (though it's not often disparaged). My top 2 are Wish and Faith in that order. Your feeling is wrong, I'm 47 yrs old, an early '90s child musically, when albums were king.
I don't like the self-titled either, but 4:13 is so different. No band sounds like they do on 4:13, which is really a return to the Wish, heavy guitar sound. It's a very unique sound, worth the return. And 4:13 is not just Wish 2, there's experimentation in the production, and the faster pop-structures of Wish are pushed further here, and toward a wider batch of themes and moods. To me, every song is strong and well-crafted, and I just don't see what the turn-off is.
To me, the weak Cure albums are self-titled, Wild Mood Swings, Bloodflowers and The Top, and the rest are at least good albums if not great.
47 is not as old as you need to be. Your hey day is mid 90s mine was mid 80s so I remember and experienced a lot more of the top artists of the time. I remember how disappointed everyone was with the cure after they released pornography, it was considered a flop and end of career type of album. The true fan considers that album a their best. 4:13 can never be thought of like wish, it can have similarities but lyrically and instrumentally speaking, there’s nothing better except for disintegration. 4:13 was a moment of confusion with no discipline to their art and sound. I’m glad you all enjoy their later stuff but for me it’s not anywhere as pleasing to hear like the earlier stuff.
Wish is better than Disintegration imo. I don't care about Pornography much. Overrought, dogmatic, monotonous a bit. Lazy even, maybe. Faith is much better for melancholy. Japanese Whispers is better for rockin' n boppin'.
Guess you don't appreciate Songs of a Lost World that much either then. Your loss.
You also missed out on Nirvana and Smashing Pumpkins blowing all '80s rock completely out of the water with masterpieces Nevermind and Siamese Dream then too... :)
I hate to burst your bubble but I was on that scene from the beginning. I saw Pearl Jam, Nirvana, and other acts from that scene in record shops playing live acoustic sets plus seeing them in small venues. They were all fans of the cure. I would listen to pornography 2,000/1 to lost world. Those songs sound just like bloodflowers while nothing has ever sounded as powerful and angry as pornography. They’ve never recorded an album so honest and aggressive, they killed that stage of the cure and moved on to writing happy music.
May your elder years be full of Pornography spins and the pleasures of condescension. Pornography tried to be punk from a goth standpoint. The result was leaden. Punk always maintains a level of up energy. It's not just sludge. That was the attempt, but the Cure were never going to be Motorhead.
Not even close, check your records as the more you write, the less knowledgeable u sound about the Cure. The Cure started out as a punk rock band, check out their original band names. Pornography was about Robert Smith angry and depressed about the band, relationships and friendships. He was thinking of joining siouxie and banshees full time and killing the Cure as a band. In a few songs, he came up with the drumbeats as he practiced on them throughout the making of this album out of pure anger. At the end of the tour they all had broken up but eventually they came back after laying off the drugs and calmed down on the drinking. That’s why it’s the most honest and powerful album in their catalog.
Sometimes drug excess, anger and depression don't actually make an artistically conducive environment. Like I said, it's a decent album, just a little unimaginative, a bit emotionally and musically stunted for them.
The Cure were never really punk by the way. I mean, Billy Joel started in a metal band. Post-punk didn't take up the punk torch. That torch went on more of a Husker-du/Fugazi/Pixies/thrash metal/Nirvana path.
I mean, Pornography is fine, it's just mid-ish and sort of one-dimensional for the band. Kind of like Bloodflowers actually. Same DNA.
Not one of Robert’s strongest lyrical efforts, that’s for sure. It is better than “The Cure” though (not the highest bar to clear, admittedly).
Underrated is not really a thing in The Cure’s catalogue, IMO. I feel like most albums are well-regarded or adored, and deservedly so. Those that don’t get as much love kind of deserve that tag, too.
Edit: forgot a word
Weak Cure.
Want to hear arguments for 4:13 being better than Seventeen Seconds, Pornography, KMKMKM, Head On the Door and Disintegration?
Umm, no. That is absurd. You like it, cool but c'mon..... There's reason they barely play any songs off it live.
There is a reason. The large portion of the fanbase you represent have basically shut it down.
4:13 might not be better than Disintegration, but it's definitely superior to the other four.
I’ll agree that it might be a bit underrated but saying it’s better than Faith, pornography, and head on the door is one hell of a take.
Not Faith. I think Faith is top 1 or 2. But Pornography is a bit monochromatic for me. Kind of sludgy and un-energetic and same-sounding. And Head on the Door is almost purely sparkly pop stuff and mood. Kind of light. 4:13 has more of a full gammot of Cure emotional range well-expressed. And the band sound is more refined, because so much later. The washes of wah-wah guitar, the more complex drumming, the grinding, towering bass sound they developed on Wish mostly. So yeah, 4:13 is better than Pornography and Head on the Door in my ranking. Every track is strong and no fluff...unlike KMKMKM. 4:13 is not better than Wish, or Faith, or Songs of a Lost World or Japanese Whispers for me. And probably Disintegration edges it out. Then I've got 4:13.
I’m a guitar player and wah is probably my least favorite effect (even though I’m currently debating buying one and putting it on my board again). That probably has a lot to do with my general view on The Cure and why 4:13 dream is definitely near the bottom for me. But for me, (some exceptions to the rule) 1: goth cure is the best 2: quirky art pop/rock cure is second best 3:funky cure is hit or miss, mostly miss 4: grungy/nu metal production cure is a no for me.
Yeah, 4:13 is definitely in the Wish-guitar-era psychadelic-jam-session vein, and that's my favorite Cure vein overall. For me Faith nailed the gothy atmospheric vein creatively and they never topped it. And for kind of electropop, I want Jap Whispers. But guitar cure is primo cure, for myself, and maybe 4:13 doesn't appeal to all Cure fans as much as thrash-guitar-Cure fans..(?)
Pornography and Disintegration for me are tied for best, followed by Faith, Head on the Door, seventeen Seconds, KMKMKM, Wish, and SOALW in that order. The rest of the albums I have to be in a mood for but each of them have redeeming moments. I’ll take 4:13 dream over WMS and self titled though. Bloodflowers and TIB rarely get listened to even though I appreciate them.
Nice. We both kind of harder downvote the same ones except for 4:13.
I'm with you. Before SOALW, they had lost me album wise after Wish.
Jap Whispers was a compilation. I never even bought it as I already had the singles. I'm not really into ranking albums but Pornography & HOTD are absolute classic Cure. 4:13 is far from it.
Don't resist the wah-wah. Sink into the wah-wah vortex..
I really only want a wah to do really slow filter sweeps. I will never do the funky wah thing. I’ve got one song where I have flanger, chorus, and a Marshall flavored OD sound with an analog delay at near self oscillation. I am playing this cool wall of noise gothic/shoegaze thing and think a slow wah sweep could be cool.
👍👌✨️
It's easily one of their their worst albums along with WMS & 413 Dream. The Cure play what they want. I represent a fanbase? Huh?
Thoughts? It's dreadful.
Why? I've listened to it.
That’s an L take
It’s not underrated. It’s just awful.
It’s dogshit on a humid day.
Hear hear.
Or don't hear.
Nope, it’s rated right where it belongs. I don’t like it and I’ve tried. I put it on every six months or so, hoping I now like it. But I don’t..
Production more? Songwriting more? Can you pin it down?
The songs don’t have the good melodies that the cure usually has… the songs aren’t cohesive, there’s nothing catchy about any of them, they sound like crap on my system, just don’t like it for good reason…
It’s not like I’m “out to not like a cure album” .. there’s nothing I’d like more than to put it on and have to think… “what was I thinking, all these years”
And….
It’s not like I’m out to prove to anyone that they shouldn’t like it…
Yeah, I mean, lots of people downvote 4:13. I'm just curious on reasons. The production is a common explanation. Somebody also suggested the meh cover art even, here. You do say "they sound like crap on my system," so i'm thinking production plays a part for you. The production/sound quality is very different on 4:13. Very flat and harsh, compressed, eq'ed, whatever. The songs are also mostly faster-paced pop structured other than Underneath the Stars. Some combination of things turns a large group of fans off...
I'm not out to prove dislikers are wrong, just curiosity. Thanks for explaining!
While not my favourite album, I can sit through 4:13 Dream - I don't choose to, but I could if needed. Can't say the same thing about Wild Mood Swings which makes me instinctively reach for the off switch.
With you on WMS. I like some tracks but can't listen to the album straight through at all.