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How long have you known that Holly Wheeler would be a major character this season?
Matt Duffer: That was a new idea. We did not know until we started working on Season 5, probably pretty early in the process.
Ross Duffer: I don’t even think it was in the pandemic. Because we had so long [of a break] that we had time to not only finish [writing] Season 4, but pitch a version of Season 5. I don’t think she was even in that. That was the big breakthrough, having shot Season 4, coming back and realizing the drive of these kids getting taken. Once we realized that, we got really excited about making Holly the focus of that new group of kids.
While I do think the Duffer brothers have done a good job so far of linking things from past seasons to now, I really don’t think they’re these mastermind storytellers that people are making them out to be.
Let’s not forget, they didn’t plan the story from the beginning this way
Edit: turning notifications off some of you just can’t read and I can’t be arsed dealing with that
To be fair, there's no better way to pay tribute to the 80s than making things up as you go along but managing to sort of successfully link everything up anyway. George Lucas would be proud.
I still hate that damn play 😂😂😂. I’ve never seen it and I want it to burn in hell. I feel like there needs/needed to be some finessing after season 4, but the play just makes it more complicated. I keep ranting about this (insert old man yelling at cloud, though I am neither old nor a man 😂) but the potential of any redemption or sympathy for Henry is just dumb. I think it could have easily been the Mind Flayer still in control and pulling the strings, without giving Henry any sort of sympathy or tragic background. It could have been explained as a mutually beneficial relationship. Henry accidentally gets sent to Dimension X: he wants to destroy the world, the MF wants to destroy the world; bada bing, bada boom, they just stumbled upon each other. Maybe they will still go that way, but I have my fears and am worried they wrote themselves into a corner.
Yeah I think people often mistake TV writers being able to sort of slowly tuck previous inconsistencies or throwaway points into the narrative as having a plan from the beginning when often they're writing seasons not really knowing if or when they're going to get another one.
In a lot of cases people will have general, somewhat vague ideas of places they would want to take the show but are not getting down to this level of granularity until they get greenlit. I've had cases where even in little things I do (not TV, just normal animations or artworks) someone comes in afterward with an explanation and I go "damn, that's actually a great idea and I wish I'd thought of that".
Yeah it’s weird how attached some people are to the idea that the Duffers planned the whole thing from the beginning.
They act like it’s an insult to their talent to say they made things up as they went along, when frankly it’s far more impressive to have achieved such a seamless retcon (so far anyway, as you said) than for them to have secretly been planning for Vecna‘s existence all along.
A flaw that itches a particular part of my brain is going from hazmat suits and toxic air in S1 to fully breathing and sleeping in the Upside Down in S5.
Well, will survived there for as long as he did without any protective equipment. Nancy also went there briefly in s1 and seemed fine. I think the hazmat suits were just a precaution because at the time of season 1, the scientists knew next to nothing about the upside down. Now that it’s been extensively researched by the scientists in s5 for over a year, they know it’s safe to breathe. I definitely think it’s cooler and scarier to require all of that equipment just to exist in the upside down, but there’s been plenty of evidence since the beginning that the air isn’t toxic (enough to seriously hurt you at least)
Again, will survived for a week and was able to be awake for a lot of it until the tentacle went in his mouth. Hopper also didn’t just inhale upside down ash. He got several concentrated mouth fulls shot from the plants in the wall. This is also the only example in the entire show where someone gets hurt from breathing, while there’s plenty of evidence from scenes before this that you can exist in the upside down perfectly fine. I’m not saying the air is harmless, just not so harmful that you need extensive equipment just to go in the upside down
Will BARELY survived. That's pretty important to keep in mind.
It was made pretty evident from the get go that the air there wasn't pleasant, at the least. For the military to be hanging out with no PPE is just silly.
Would you tear down a house full of asbestos with no protection? You'd have no trouble surviving for a week, after all. So it should be totally fine.
the US military sent troops to war without adequate armor
as well as to areas with known and unknown toxic particulates in the air and the equipment around them
—Agent Orange
—burn pits
—depleted uranium
—burning oil rigs
and the US is full of people who had an option to wear masks during COVID and didn’t, and were furious about anywhere it was required, and furious at people who complied…
when I was deployed they had warning signs up about airborne soil with human feces particulates and harmful microbes, not to mention chemicals, and warned people to not exercise outside
meanwhile, even though there was a gym, units encouraged troops to exercise outside and even had a 5k Turkey Trot for Thanksgiving…
during the PT test two mile run, we had the option to wear a surgeon’s mask and I was the only person who did… everyone likes to look tough but I prefer to be healthy… someone I knew there had been sent home for an unknown bacterial pneumonia
anyway the next day people had the most horrible cough, and it lasted for about a week for them— I just had a dry scratchy cough for a couple days
it didn’t help that the motors were running in the huge motor pool as we went by, but the burn pit was going as well
It contains a human-breathable atmosphere (though is potentially toxic with prolonged exposure).
That came straight from the Wiki. In S1, when Hopper discovers the gate, he covers his mouth while coughing.
Also, in the final episode of S1, when Joyce and Hopper go into the Upside Down, one of the scientists says that "the air is toxic," to which Joyce says with concern, "My son is in there." THAT'S why they were wearing Hazmat suits.
In S2, when the Party went to rescue Hopper, they had face coverings. Yes, the spores added to Hopper being unconscious, but that actually supports my claim about the air being toxic because the Upside Down ash and the spores are one in the same. Hopper, unfortunately, got an influx of spores, whereas Dustin was okay even when the spores got in his mouth because he had a face covering.
Up until S5, Will was the only one to spend a prolonged amount of time in the Upside Down. The Upside Down was discovered to be stuck in time in S4. IF that's the case, I wouldn't be surprised that S5 Vol. 2 has a timey-wimey explanation for Will's survival.
Maybe my initial wording came off as "How can they breathe in the Upside Down now when they couldn't before?" That's not at all what I am saying.
What I was trying to say was that the plot point about the air being toxic has slowly faded with each season.
is it not common knowledge that stranger things was originally going to be an anthology series but the first season was such a smash hit it got turned into the whole story anymore?
i don’t think the duffer brothers themselves try to convince people this was all planned from the start
I always thought that, but apparently the Duffers originally pitched a sequel series when the kids were grown up à la IT, and Netflix also specifically asked them to plan rough ideas for a potential sequel in case the first was a success (although Vecna was nowhere to be found in their sequel ideas for the record).
So idk if the Duffers ever earnestly planned to make it an anthology or if that’s just a widespread rumour.
i did some research into it, according to a screenrant article from after s4’s finale
When the concept of Stranger Things was first pitched, the series was presented as an anthology series, like American Horror Story, the different themes of which completely transform each season. It's difficult to envision a Stranger Things story completely dropping the previous season's events, but the Duffer Brothers intended for Eleven's tale to be concluded within one installment. The creators took inspiration from Stephen King's It when it came to the show's development, since they toyed with the idea of a major time jump involving a brand-new story. It also makes sense that an anthology format would have been considered, since the popularity surrounding shows like American Horror Story, True Detective, and Fargo were established before Stranger Things came to fruition.
The only things not in season 5 was the name of the sister and the bunny. The shape of the wormhole is also not original but thats besides the point. Its entirely possible that when they chose Holly they then intentionally chose to go into the theme they had unintentionally started. Even if you don’t plan something from the get go you can still make it retroactively fir
I agree. Just because that wasn't the original intention with Holly making the rabbit on the toy doesn't mean it didn't occur to them later that they could make it part of a theme they are now consciously planning on building. I write fiction myself and do this kind of stuff all the time.
It's stated they had most things planned from s2 -- so probably most of the Upside Down lore is all finalised. But I doubt they had every character and beat mapped out since then lol
As someone who runs a DnD campaign set in my own world, often times you tell a story with no idea where it’s going until it naturally flows and you find bits and pieces from the past to link to the present to make it seem like it was cohesive the whole time.
This blows my mind cause on rewatch of season 1 where Karen and holly visit Joyce. Holly walks into wills room and the second she's in there a demogorgan face starts emerging out of the wall and then immediately when joyce gets her out the room it disappeares I thought back to that scene immediately when holly got kidnapped and made me think she's been targeted since the beginning the duffer brothers accidentally made the perfect set up and foreshadowing for one of the biggest plots in the final season with out even realizing it
To be fair they might also just be lying. That they did intend this but in order to avoid people looking for clues and anticipating the twist they pretend there are no clues to be found. And that its only gonna make sense looking back.
Or they found stuff that could be a clue and used it to map out the story. So that the story fits the stuff that could become a clue in hindsight. Happy little accidents
i ended up rewatching from the beginning after watching s5 (i forgot a lot of stuff lmao) and that struck me as interesting too!! holly seemed like a last minute addition for s5 but then that in s1 makes you think
They've wanted to do a Wheeler House attack since season 1, but it didn't make sense then with what they wanted Karen's role to be in the story. I also get that the Byers House was already well established as a place to stage a demo attack, as we see in the final episode, and it worked with the Joyce/Karen dynamic, that Joyce appeared to be losing it in front of Karen.
That interaction with little Holly does a job at telling us that the demo is still stalking around the Byers House, and that people like Karen can be oblivious to these dangers, while children can be more perceptive to them. It can also be that this was as close as the Duffers could get to putting Holly and Karen in danger, until it came to the final season.
This doesn't mean that they can't retroactively go back and recontextualize previous moments.
In other words, they might have had no motive in directing Holly to make a white rabbit with her Lite Brite. But when writing season 5, they could have realized that the previous arbitrary decision could be given new meaning.
I write story-heavy DnD campaigns. Recontextualizing previously meaningless moments into something bigger is my jam.
Hell, so many of the cast seem obsessed enough with the characters they play and the story they're telling, and have all talked about what an open conversation the Duffers keep regarding how to depict their characters, that you could tell me that Jamie charged out of his trailer going "I'M THE WHITE RABBIT NO TRUST" and I'd 100% believe
Stranger Things is literally the only show that's pulled me back in for a rewatch before much time has passed after my first watch. Even Arcane I waited for my rewatch (and I loved Arcane). Usually I watch once, then chill.
ETA: perhaps because of the mystery aspect? I wanted to rewatch the whole series after s5 vol 1 because of the new context I had on everything
Totally agree, my guess is the comparison between the upside down and Wonderland was already on their mind with the clock theme, so Holly’s rabbit lite brite was likely an homage that they expanded on. I just mentioned that to say the reference to Season 4 easter eggs in the tik tok is a little misleading since most of the references are in season 5 and not at all inconsistent with them not knowing the full extent of Holly’s role at the first season 5 pitch.
In fairness, the only season 4 Easter egg on the tik tok is the lite brite rabbit the rest are clear Alice in Wonderland references in Season 5, which are undoubtedly accurate. I think obviously there’s a lot here, like for example if Max is there but also in a coma in Hawkins, is Holly’s body also somewhere while she’s in the Vecna mind scape and is the secret to getting out to somehow wake up, as it is for Alice and presumably Max. There’s also very overt Wrinkle in Time references here as well, which concludes with Meg Murry lifting the spell on her brother Charles Wallace using the power of love, of which IT knows not. And episode 6 is titled Escape from Camazotz, so I think we’re being led to believe that Max and Holly will escape with the power of the love of the children left behind in Hawkins (indeed, Max almost escapes through the combination of Kate Bush and Lucas’s holding her hand). I’m not sure these things are huge keys to the final endgame because they’re so overt but it’s fun to think about.
Ohh, yes. I did notice the blue dress like Alice. The volume of the petticoats made it stand out more than the other dresses so you’re more likely to notice there‘s symbolism.
If we tie it up, and vecna "the servant of mind flayer" who fears him, then max's cave is where mind flayer lives, cuz henry looked terrifying as max said when she entered there.
The cave is in Henry's memories, and I think it reflects to be the cicle surrounded by wall in the upside down.
I don’t think that mind flayer actually live in that cave… but I’ve heard that Henry got flayed in that cave by mind flayer so he’s scared of that cave.. idk if it’s true or not but it seems pretty logical to me
There might be! There’s more to this story from the play:
major spoiler aheadHenry does in fact get flayed in the cave. He stumbled upon experimental equipment in Nevada (made by Dr. Brenner’s dad, who was also infected due to a prior event in the play). He disappeared into DX for 12 hours, and supposedly this is when he first came into contact with the MF.
I honestly think the wall is just the boundary of the pocket dimension that is the upside down. That’s why the lab where el opened a gate to it (and in my theory actually created the upside down) is in the center of it. On the other side is dimension X, where the mind flayer is from. That’s why the demogorgans are going there.
I think there are intentional similarities between the wall the cave is in and the wall in the upside down. But I think that’s just symbolic as a sign that the mind flayer is still really the one behind all of this. The mind flayer is the wizard behind the curtain (wall) if you would.
According to the play there was stolen gvt equipment in the cave that sent Henry to dimension X which is where he encountered the mind flayer. I agree with this theory and actually posted a similar more detailed theory about Henry being a pawn of the mind flayer in a different comment earlier. I haven’t worked out how Henry’s memory world factors into it yet though.
Nice catch by whoever made this theory on the dress and similarities between Henry and the rabbit. I actually noticed the Disney theme (little red riding hood too) but I thought that other dress was Cinderella but Alice definitely makes more sense. Another character with pony tails and a blue dress who was taken to a magical world and is a contender though? Dorothy. And the MF is the wizard behind the curtain (wall).
I think his dad or Boy Scout leader molested him in the cave. We’ve had scenes of them going on a family trip somewhere and he’s in the scouts. This show is all about trauma and using that trauma to take advantage of those that are weak minded. I’d be willing to bet the mind flayer used this as a way to control Henry/vecna and told him he could get his revenge. And that set off the rest with the government somehow coming in. Maybe the government originally released the mind flayer or something. Who knows.
Spoiler: It’s confirmed in the play that the cave was where he was transported to dimension x by government equipment that was in there. And that this was a traumatic experience for him. Unless they completely change the play canon but they confirmed that as canon and seen to be using it. Maybe he had something like that happen but it’s not what his fear of the cave is about
Dustin concerned a lot of people by saying "a wall that surrounds the upside down"
I think it is the circular wall surrounds a part of the Upside down while both dustin and the others, and hop and el are out, and on opposite sides. That's why they did not meet btw.
So as an editor, I help my clients work on their plot and story. I will hands down tell you so many people do have their Big Plot, but then don't realize all the connective tissue that gets unintentionally drawn in the spots they aren't paying attention, so exactly in this case of 'hey we didn't plan for Holly, but the moments we put in helped us form and clarify and get legs with this idea'. And honestly, love it when that happens. They're like Bob Ross says: Happy Little Accidents.
The sign of a good storyteller is being able to adjust and go with the flow and make sure things make sense. While I question a lot of choices made, the Duffer Bros are doing a pretty good job of building out from their initial ideas and pivoting.
Doesn't make up for dropping the ball on Chrissy and Eddie though lmao
Yeah, I'm currently writing a big fanfiction series, and there are many times that I'm rereading it through after a big break and I'll see something I just simply drop in and immediately think of where I can take that point, and I'm always like omg I'm a genius haha. Granted, some of these points I probably thought of when I wrote it in, and then just forgot about it cus I'm so focused on making the sure the main plot has all the clues in, but it still has the same feeling. I just get amazed with myself, and its quite a boost 🤣
Yeah I'm sure Alice in Wonderland is a big influence on Stranger Things. And Stranger Things has never been afraid to show where its influences are coming from.
My mom recently got into the show and she said that it was reminding her of a Stephen King book she once read. She spent two-weeks telling me how much not being able to remember the name of the book was bugging her. Then when she got to the part where Lucas is reading a book to Max in the hospital, he was READING THAT VERY SAME BOOK. She googled it and found the name, The Talisman.
I haven't read A Wrinkle in Time, but that obviously has a big influence on all of this too.
Except… Holly isn’t dressed like Alice. She’s dressed like Dorothy Gale from the Wizard of Oz. She’s got the inward curled pigtails and the dress isn’t just blue, it’s blue gingham. Then later when she starts her journey I turned to my husband and said, ok so what scarecrow is she about to meet? Moments later, Max appears in tattered, patched clothes and messy hair. Henry lines up with the wizard, who Dorothy meets wearing a brown suit right before she disappears into Oz, where she eventually learns the wizard is actually a lying charlatan and not the helpful older man he’d lead her to believe he was
You’re right about the dress and scarecrow for sure.
Overall though, I kinda thought it might be a mix, especially since there was a nod to Red Riding Hood later. It felt like a combo-homage to the classics. There’s elements of Snow White if you look at El and her friends finding her and sheltering her. But nothing is exactly on the nose, which is also good.
Ok, maybe I may be incorrect but Alice in Wonderland was realised in 1951. And the story tof ST akes place after that maybe maybe Holly had watched it and Vecna is configuring his looks according to that, we saw the Max saw Vecna in the camoztaz in the white lab costume, maybe he's changing his appearance according to different kids to make him look more trustworthy. Maybe he steals 8's aka Kali's power like Eleven's in season 3 and the scientist are trying to get her power back in the upside down like project nina.
he didnt “steal” kali’s power, vecna has always had the whole range of psychic powers, if anything kali took his illusion powers since all the kids in the lab were injected w his blood
also he didnt steal eleven’s power, eleven was severly exhausted and brain damaged by the overuse of her powers during her fight with billy/the mindflayer that her powers were “locked”
the military is keeping kali to experiment on her to find how to stop and control eleven (and possibly vecna), with her they found out sound waves weaken eleven, thats what the “kryptonite” they kept mentioning was all about
I think it might be the other way around. Henry may have watched Alice In Wonderland as a child in 1951 and is now taking inspiration from it in the present day for Camazotz.
(Also, Vecna already has the abilities 008 possesses before she was born, and on a larger scale)
I just think they decided it would be cool to include references from Alice in Wonderland, especially in season 5, because of the whole Upside Down thing. And she's a blonde girl, so that's also something they could take advantage of to create associations. They're already heavily influenced by pop culture and genre literature, so why not?
There are SO MANY rabbit references. At the end of season 4 in the last 5 mins Karen passes Nancy a box of donations and she exclaimed "Mr rabbit!" And also in Elle's baby room at her mom and aunt's place, there's rabbits around the room as decoration. There are a few more I can't remember off the top of my head, but anytime I notice a rabbit in the show I think of "follow the white rabbit!"
Same goes for the lions and tigers. I wish the Duffers would release an encyclopedia with all the references and Easter eggs in the show
wow this is insane if they weren’t thinking of featuring her as heavily as they did in Season 5 bc those are some crazy coincidental details (which we do not believe!)
I love this! Also nothing to do with your theory but in the first season they use that song “White Rabbit” I think it’s the very first episode actually. So you might have something here!!
Goated theory. She is DEFINITELY dressed exactly as Alice in that blue dress combo. I even thought that while watching. It also means that the Duffer brothers had already come up with this well in the past, and this isn't an 11th hour rewrite to include the younger characters all of a sudden.
Kinda off topic, but I’m named after Alice in Wonderland, and I remember texting a friend like “I totally vibe with Holly”. Anyway. That’s scary and I’m shook
In season 1 toddler holly wanders off inside the Byers home, right before she’s found the demigorgan starts coming through the wall at her but then her mom and Joyce walk in. It makes me wonder if her being taken was set up back then already.
the fact they were after Holly was a known fact since the "evil stuff" wanted to get her since SEASON 1 (when they visited Winona Ryders's character, and the thing* was coming out of the wall)
I refuse to believe Henry is "the main villain", so I hope this theory is right and he's not as almighty as he thinks he is.... and he doesn't rule the upside down (like he thinks he does).
This has to be the best Stranger Things related post I’ve seen since the new season started! That is a really cool concept and took some brains to string together. You are appreciated
I like the theroy but this show is also just a BIG GIANT NOSTALGIA / EASTER EGG farm. every episode has references to other things / pop culture / thats its pretty easy to just link things because its just using existing things to push those nostalgic receptors in our brains.
We've seen references from the Goonies, to Superman, to Marvel Comics, to Ghost busters, to the big obvious D&D. and a lot of these references sometimes are multi layered where they are a reference to two things at once.
sometimes theories make me bummed out because we give too much credit to writers sometimes and expect them to be so smart with it when actually no.
the theories are great and they match up so well but it happens that the writers didn't think of how we thought it. soo i hope you're on to something here
I really hope Vecna isn’t the end all be all. I was very disappointed when it was set up like that in season 4. Dimension X existed before El ever opened a gate. Before Henry became Vecna. He said its untouched by humanity but an eldritch being isn’t humanity. It would make the world feel… small i guess? If there was no force behind it?
What is the theory exactly, that the Holly story line is based on Alice in Wonderland? If the only conclusion we can draw from this is that Vecna is a servant of the Mind Flayer then that's not really new knowledge, we already knew this.
A lot of people say a lot of dumb shit about this show with their terrible theories, but this honestly adds up in a way LOST used to gives clues before it derailed. I like this a lot - it may not actually give us answers, but there's clear and obvious inspiration, turned darkly on it's head.
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Forgot to mention the first thing Henry ever killed was a white rabbit in his yard
Ohhh yeah.. actually
In episode 1, the song White Rabbit by Jefferson Airplane is playing when Benny is killed.
Was this said in the play because I dont remember hearing this when I saw it?
I just rewatched the series and it’s in the episode where he explains his whole backstory last season
Yes I dont remember that either
You came, you saw, you cooked. I’m so with it and have no notes
It’s not my theory.. saw this on TikTok
Thank you for braving the upside down and bringing us some of the little good content from there
Aww it’s my pleasure 🤣
I can read I promise
Promise?
C-o-m promise. Let's make that our word for the day.
I'm personally anti-mice... but we can still be friends
[removed]
There were no clues in season 4, because Holly wasn't in the original pitch for Season 5.
https://variety.com/2025/tv/news/stranger-things-5-explained-will-powers-return-of-eight-vecna-plan-1236592989/
This is from an interview with Variety
How long have you known that Holly Wheeler would be a major character this season?
Matt Duffer: That was a new idea. We did not know until we started working on Season 5, probably pretty early in the process.
Ross Duffer: I don’t even think it was in the pandemic. Because we had so long [of a break] that we had time to not only finish [writing] Season 4, but pitch a version of Season 5. I don’t think she was even in that. That was the big breakthrough, having shot Season 4, coming back and realizing the drive of these kids getting taken. Once we realized that, we got really excited about making Holly the focus of that new group of kids.
While I do think the Duffer brothers have done a good job so far of linking things from past seasons to now, I really don’t think they’re these mastermind storytellers that people are making them out to be.
Let’s not forget, they didn’t plan the story from the beginning this way
Edit: turning notifications off some of you just can’t read and I can’t be arsed dealing with that
To be fair, there's no better way to pay tribute to the 80s than making things up as you go along but managing to sort of successfully link everything up anyway. George Lucas would be proud.
Season 4 really shows how little they planned ahead with how much it had to retcon for the present storyline to make sense.
Not to mention the stage play of it all
I still hate that damn play 😂😂😂. I’ve never seen it and I want it to burn in hell. I feel like there needs/needed to be some finessing after season 4, but the play just makes it more complicated. I keep ranting about this (insert old man yelling at cloud, though I am neither old nor a man 😂) but the potential of any redemption or sympathy for Henry is just dumb. I think it could have easily been the Mind Flayer still in control and pulling the strings, without giving Henry any sort of sympathy or tragic background. It could have been explained as a mutually beneficial relationship. Henry accidentally gets sent to Dimension X: he wants to destroy the world, the MF wants to destroy the world; bada bing, bada boom, they just stumbled upon each other. Maybe they will still go that way, but I have my fears and am worried they wrote themselves into a corner.
Oh I agree, I think the play was a horrible idea and I still don’t know why they had to link every adult character together.
Excuse me, what play you are talking about?!
I have seen it and also want it to burn. The acting was amazing but the whole concept does not need to exist.
Jesus don't get me started on that play... 💀
Yeah I think people often mistake TV writers being able to sort of slowly tuck previous inconsistencies or throwaway points into the narrative as having a plan from the beginning when often they're writing seasons not really knowing if or when they're going to get another one.
In a lot of cases people will have general, somewhat vague ideas of places they would want to take the show but are not getting down to this level of granularity until they get greenlit. I've had cases where even in little things I do (not TV, just normal animations or artworks) someone comes in afterward with an explanation and I go "damn, that's actually a great idea and I wish I'd thought of that".
I call that backwards foreshadowing.
It’s like writing an English essay in high school where we can make everything meaningful!
Yeah it’s weird how attached some people are to the idea that the Duffers planned the whole thing from the beginning.
They act like it’s an insult to their talent to say they made things up as they went along, when frankly it’s far more impressive to have achieved such a seamless retcon (so far anyway, as you said) than for them to have secretly been planning for Vecna‘s existence all along.
Ehh, I wouldn't call it "seamless" by any stretch. There's some aspects that just straight up don't make sense.
It works, and it isn't abysmal. But there's definitely some glaring flaws in how it was mashed together.
A flaw that itches a particular part of my brain is going from hazmat suits and toxic air in S1 to fully breathing and sleeping in the Upside Down in S5.
Well, will survived there for as long as he did without any protective equipment. Nancy also went there briefly in s1 and seemed fine. I think the hazmat suits were just a precaution because at the time of season 1, the scientists knew next to nothing about the upside down. Now that it’s been extensively researched by the scientists in s5 for over a year, they know it’s safe to breathe. I definitely think it’s cooler and scarier to require all of that equipment just to exist in the upside down, but there’s been plenty of evidence since the beginning that the air isn’t toxic (enough to seriously hurt you at least)
I'd be right there with you if S2 didn't have Hopper pass out from the Upside Down ash in the tunnels.
Again, will survived for a week and was able to be awake for a lot of it until the tentacle went in his mouth. Hopper also didn’t just inhale upside down ash. He got several concentrated mouth fulls shot from the plants in the wall. This is also the only example in the entire show where someone gets hurt from breathing, while there’s plenty of evidence from scenes before this that you can exist in the upside down perfectly fine. I’m not saying the air is harmless, just not so harmful that you need extensive equipment just to go in the upside down
Will BARELY survived. That's pretty important to keep in mind.
It was made pretty evident from the get go that the air there wasn't pleasant, at the least. For the military to be hanging out with no PPE is just silly.
Would you tear down a house full of asbestos with no protection? You'd have no trouble surviving for a week, after all. So it should be totally fine.
the US military sent troops to war without adequate armor
as well as to areas with known and unknown toxic particulates in the air and the equipment around them —Agent Orange —burn pits —depleted uranium —burning oil rigs
and the US is full of people who had an option to wear masks during COVID and didn’t, and were furious about anywhere it was required, and furious at people who complied…
when I was deployed they had warning signs up about airborne soil with human feces particulates and harmful microbes, not to mention chemicals, and warned people to not exercise outside
meanwhile, even though there was a gym, units encouraged troops to exercise outside and even had a 5k Turkey Trot for Thanksgiving…
during the PT test two mile run, we had the option to wear a surgeon’s mask and I was the only person who did… everyone likes to look tough but I prefer to be healthy… someone I knew there had been sent home for an unknown bacterial pneumonia
anyway the next day people had the most horrible cough, and it lasted for about a week for them— I just had a dry scratchy cough for a couple days
it didn’t help that the motors were running in the huge motor pool as we went by, but the burn pit was going as well
all of us had red eyes to different degrees too
I wanted to do some research before responding:
It contains a human-breathable atmosphere (though is potentially toxic with prolonged exposure).
That came straight from the Wiki. In S1, when Hopper discovers the gate, he covers his mouth while coughing.
Also, in the final episode of S1, when Joyce and Hopper go into the Upside Down, one of the scientists says that "the air is toxic," to which Joyce says with concern, "My son is in there." THAT'S why they were wearing Hazmat suits.
In S2, when the Party went to rescue Hopper, they had face coverings. Yes, the spores added to Hopper being unconscious, but that actually supports my claim about the air being toxic because the Upside Down ash and the spores are one in the same. Hopper, unfortunately, got an influx of spores, whereas Dustin was okay even when the spores got in his mouth because he had a face covering.
Up until S5, Will was the only one to spend a prolonged amount of time in the Upside Down. The Upside Down was discovered to be stuck in time in S4. IF that's the case, I wouldn't be surprised that S5 Vol. 2 has a timey-wimey explanation for Will's survival.
Maybe my initial wording came off as "How can they breathe in the Upside Down now when they couldn't before?" That's not at all what I am saying.
What I was trying to say was that the plot point about the air being toxic has slowly faded with each season.
Good points, I appreciate the examples! And you’re right, I did misunderstand your complaint.
is it not common knowledge that stranger things was originally going to be an anthology series but the first season was such a smash hit it got turned into the whole story anymore?
i don’t think the duffer brothers themselves try to convince people this was all planned from the start
I actually don‘t know anymore?
I always thought that, but apparently the Duffers originally pitched a sequel series when the kids were grown up à la IT, and Netflix also specifically asked them to plan rough ideas for a potential sequel in case the first was a success (although Vecna was nowhere to be found in their sequel ideas for the record).
So idk if the Duffers ever earnestly planned to make it an anthology or if that’s just a widespread rumour.
i did some research into it, according to a screenrant article from after s4’s finale
seems almost like a squishy anthology concept
Considering the inconsistencies so far, yes they are not mastermind storytellers. But they DO tell a good story! :D
The only things not in season 5 was the name of the sister and the bunny. The shape of the wormhole is also not original but thats besides the point. Its entirely possible that when they chose Holly they then intentionally chose to go into the theme they had unintentionally started. Even if you don’t plan something from the get go you can still make it retroactively fir
I agree. Just because that wasn't the original intention with Holly making the rabbit on the toy doesn't mean it didn't occur to them later that they could make it part of a theme they are now consciously planning on building. I write fiction myself and do this kind of stuff all the time.
It's stated they had most things planned from s2 -- so probably most of the Upside Down lore is all finalised. But I doubt they had every character and beat mapped out since then lol
Where was that stated?
I’m sure it was from a fake post like 99% of quotes attributed to the Duffer brothers.
Yeah I agree I just wanted to see if that commenter could provide a source.
Shock - they couldn’t
I think the existence of the play proves they didnt think too far ahead.
As someone who runs a DnD campaign set in my own world, often times you tell a story with no idea where it’s going until it naturally flows and you find bits and pieces from the past to link to the present to make it seem like it was cohesive the whole time.
This blows my mind cause on rewatch of season 1 where Karen and holly visit Joyce. Holly walks into wills room and the second she's in there a demogorgan face starts emerging out of the wall and then immediately when joyce gets her out the room it disappeares I thought back to that scene immediately when holly got kidnapped and made me think she's been targeted since the beginning the duffer brothers accidentally made the perfect set up and foreshadowing for one of the biggest plots in the final season with out even realizing it
To be fair they might also just be lying. That they did intend this but in order to avoid people looking for clues and anticipating the twist they pretend there are no clues to be found. And that its only gonna make sense looking back.
Or they found stuff that could be a clue and used it to map out the story. So that the story fits the stuff that could become a clue in hindsight. Happy little accidents
i ended up rewatching from the beginning after watching s5 (i forgot a lot of stuff lmao) and that struck me as interesting too!! holly seemed like a last minute addition for s5 but then that in s1 makes you think
The episode is also titled “Holly, Jolly”
She was also the person to see the trees moving on the Ferris wheel when the Meat Flayer was walking through the forest heading to Hopper's cabin.
To be honest while this does match up, vecna is supposed to preying upon kids that are 9-12 year olds supposedly.
Since the only kids that are getting protected is in that age range and will was in that range as well.
They've wanted to do a Wheeler House attack since season 1, but it didn't make sense then with what they wanted Karen's role to be in the story. I also get that the Byers House was already well established as a place to stage a demo attack, as we see in the final episode, and it worked with the Joyce/Karen dynamic, that Joyce appeared to be losing it in front of Karen.
That interaction with little Holly does a job at telling us that the demo is still stalking around the Byers House, and that people like Karen can be oblivious to these dangers, while children can be more perceptive to them. It can also be that this was as close as the Duffers could get to putting Holly and Karen in danger, until it came to the final season.
Ohhh I didn’t know about this
This doesn't mean that they can't retroactively go back and recontextualize previous moments.
In other words, they might have had no motive in directing Holly to make a white rabbit with her Lite Brite. But when writing season 5, they could have realized that the previous arbitrary decision could be given new meaning.
I write story-heavy DnD campaigns. Recontextualizing previously meaningless moments into something bigger is my jam.
And they had so much time they could have literally rewatched it several times to find stuff like that
Hell, so many of the cast seem obsessed enough with the characters they play and the story they're telling, and have all talked about what an open conversation the Duffers keep regarding how to depict their characters, that you could tell me that Jamie charged out of his trailer going "I'M THE WHITE RABBIT NO TRUST" and I'd 100% believe
Just waiting for him to drop the line.
“I’m late.” Sinister Pause “For a very important date.”
Didn't he tell Holly he was late when leaving?
I'm flying by the seat of my pants, I've only rewatched volume 1 twice, I fear I am not a real fan 😔✊
Same actually. I like the show well enough, but I prefer to replay my old games than rewatch a series. Just a priorities thing.
Stranger Things is literally the only show that's pulled me back in for a rewatch before much time has passed after my first watch. Even Arcane I waited for my rewatch (and I loved Arcane). Usually I watch once, then chill.
ETA: perhaps because of the mystery aspect? I wanted to rewatch the whole series after s5 vol 1 because of the new context I had on everything
Totally agree, my guess is the comparison between the upside down and Wonderland was already on their mind with the clock theme, so Holly’s rabbit lite brite was likely an homage that they expanded on. I just mentioned that to say the reference to Season 4 easter eggs in the tik tok is a little misleading since most of the references are in season 5 and not at all inconsistent with them not knowing the full extent of Holly’s role at the first season 5 pitch.
In fairness, the only season 4 Easter egg on the tik tok is the lite brite rabbit the rest are clear Alice in Wonderland references in Season 5, which are undoubtedly accurate. I think obviously there’s a lot here, like for example if Max is there but also in a coma in Hawkins, is Holly’s body also somewhere while she’s in the Vecna mind scape and is the secret to getting out to somehow wake up, as it is for Alice and presumably Max. There’s also very overt Wrinkle in Time references here as well, which concludes with Meg Murry lifting the spell on her brother Charles Wallace using the power of love, of which IT knows not. And episode 6 is titled Escape from Camazotz, so I think we’re being led to believe that Max and Holly will escape with the power of the love of the children left behind in Hawkins (indeed, Max almost escapes through the combination of Kate Bush and Lucas’s holding her hand). I’m not sure these things are huge keys to the final endgame because they’re so overt but it’s fun to think about.
It was around Easter time, so it could be the Easter bunny with a basket of eggs.
Ohh, yes. I did notice the blue dress like Alice. The volume of the petticoats made it stand out more than the other dresses so you’re more likely to notice there‘s symbolism.
Yes exactly
Bro this is truely insane
If we tie it up, and vecna "the servant of mind flayer" who fears him, then max's cave is where mind flayer lives, cuz henry looked terrifying as max said when she entered there.
The cave is in Henry's memories, and I think it reflects to be the cicle surrounded by wall in the upside down.
I don’t think that mind flayer actually live in that cave… but I’ve heard that Henry got flayed in that cave by mind flayer so he’s scared of that cave.. idk if it’s true or not but it seems pretty logical to me
it makes sense
and otherwise this is true or not, i can bet the link up between cave & whatever shit behind the wall is right.
You mean the wall in upside down?
yeah
Okayyyy and why do you think there’s a link between the cave and the wall???
I can bet my house for this bro
it just seems obvious for me.
There might be! There’s more to this story from the play:
major spoiler ahead Henry does in fact get flayed in the cave. He stumbled upon experimental equipment in Nevada (made by Dr. Brenner’s dad, who was also infected due to a prior event in the play). He disappeared into DX for 12 hours, and supposedly this is when he first came into contact with the MF.
What’s DX pls?
Dimension X!
I honestly think the wall is just the boundary of the pocket dimension that is the upside down. That’s why the lab where el opened a gate to it (and in my theory actually created the upside down) is in the center of it. On the other side is dimension X, where the mind flayer is from. That’s why the demogorgans are going there.
I think there are intentional similarities between the wall the cave is in and the wall in the upside down. But I think that’s just symbolic as a sign that the mind flayer is still really the one behind all of this. The mind flayer is the wizard behind the curtain (wall) if you would.
According to the play there was stolen gvt equipment in the cave that sent Henry to dimension X which is where he encountered the mind flayer. I agree with this theory and actually posted a similar more detailed theory about Henry being a pawn of the mind flayer in a different comment earlier. I haven’t worked out how Henry’s memory world factors into it yet though.
Nice catch by whoever made this theory on the dress and similarities between Henry and the rabbit. I actually noticed the Disney theme (little red riding hood too) but I thought that other dress was Cinderella but Alice definitely makes more sense. Another character with pony tails and a blue dress who was taken to a magical world and is a contender though? Dorothy. And the MF is the wizard behind the curtain (wall).
I think his dad or Boy Scout leader molested him in the cave. We’ve had scenes of them going on a family trip somewhere and he’s in the scouts. This show is all about trauma and using that trauma to take advantage of those that are weak minded. I’d be willing to bet the mind flayer used this as a way to control Henry/vecna and told him he could get his revenge. And that set off the rest with the government somehow coming in. Maybe the government originally released the mind flayer or something. Who knows.
Spoiler: It’s confirmed in the play that the cave was where he was transported to dimension x by government equipment that was in there. And that this was a traumatic experience for him. Unless they completely change the play canon but they confirmed that as canon and seen to be using it. Maybe he had something like that happen but it’s not what his fear of the cave is about
The question for me with the wall is if its to keep something in or to keep something out...
Dustin concerned a lot of people by saying "a wall that surrounds the upside down"
I think it is the circular wall surrounds a part of the Upside down while both dustin and the others, and hop and el are out, and on opposite sides. That's why they did not meet btw.
So as an editor, I help my clients work on their plot and story. I will hands down tell you so many people do have their Big Plot, but then don't realize all the connective tissue that gets unintentionally drawn in the spots they aren't paying attention, so exactly in this case of 'hey we didn't plan for Holly, but the moments we put in helped us form and clarify and get legs with this idea'. And honestly, love it when that happens. They're like Bob Ross says: Happy Little Accidents.
The sign of a good storyteller is being able to adjust and go with the flow and make sure things make sense. While I question a lot of choices made, the Duffer Bros are doing a pretty good job of building out from their initial ideas and pivoting.
Doesn't make up for dropping the ball on Chrissy and Eddie though lmao
"Bob Ross" - don't disparage a legend by not respecting his name with lowercase.
didn't realize I hadn't capitalized it. Thanks for the call out. Fixed!
Yeah, I'm currently writing a big fanfiction series, and there are many times that I'm rereading it through after a big break and I'll see something I just simply drop in and immediately think of where I can take that point, and I'm always like omg I'm a genius haha. Granted, some of these points I probably thought of when I wrote it in, and then just forgot about it cus I'm so focused on making the sure the main plot has all the clues in, but it still has the same feeling. I just get amazed with myself, and its quite a boost 🤣
"Where people walk upside down" that gagged me 😭.
Hot damn, you're absolutely frying!
Thanks but i saw this on TikTok
Regardless, you brought it to my attention.👍
I actually like this a lot
Right… it’s actually good
humans are really good at seeing patterns where they don’t actually exist
Mr Clarke season 3?
~apophenia~
Yeah I'm sure Alice in Wonderland is a big influence on Stranger Things. And Stranger Things has never been afraid to show where its influences are coming from.
My mom recently got into the show and she said that it was reminding her of a Stephen King book she once read. She spent two-weeks telling me how much not being able to remember the name of the book was bugging her. Then when she got to the part where Lucas is reading a book to Max in the hospital, he was READING THAT VERY SAME BOOK. She googled it and found the name, The Talisman.
I haven't read A Wrinkle in Time, but that obviously has a big influence on all of this too.
What?? Really? I just got The Talisman book 2 days ago
Not sure, I haven’t read it. But sounds like it has to do with a small town in New Hampshire that has a parallel version called “the Territories.”
Ohhh sounds interesting
I hope you love it; it’s one of my favorite SK books.
I need the drugs you guys take
Find the hookah smoking caterpillar and you can have some
They left Argyle out of this season, unfortunately.
I like him and all, but there's only so much of him i can take.
He would make a good smoking caterpillar, though.
Lol
Tf 🤣🤣🤣
Except… Holly isn’t dressed like Alice. She’s dressed like Dorothy Gale from the Wizard of Oz. She’s got the inward curled pigtails and the dress isn’t just blue, it’s blue gingham. Then later when she starts her journey I turned to my husband and said, ok so what scarecrow is she about to meet? Moments later, Max appears in tattered, patched clothes and messy hair. Henry lines up with the wizard, who Dorothy meets wearing a brown suit right before she disappears into Oz, where she eventually learns the wizard is actually a lying charlatan and not the helpful older man he’d lead her to believe he was
You’re right about the dress and scarecrow for sure.
Overall though, I kinda thought it might be a mix, especially since there was a nod to Red Riding Hood later. It felt like a combo-homage to the classics. There’s elements of Snow White if you look at El and her friends finding her and sheltering her. But nothing is exactly on the nose, which is also good.
Ooooh you right. Trying to read it just one way is too basic. It’s all of them. Ooooh that’s so much more fun
That's a much better theory than the time travel theory and explains the clocks.
What’s the time travel theory?
That El will jump BACK in time and not open a door to the upside down. Personally, I will be so PISSED if they do that
Exactly… I hope this won’t happen
Not sure if this was mentioned already but in Jane's room when she visits her mom there's a picture of the white rabbit from AIWL above the dresser.
Yuppp I saw that too.. was it a picture or an actual doll?
Didn’t Nancy have a stuffed rabbit at some point?
They might be cookinggggg
Ok, maybe I may be incorrect but Alice in Wonderland was realised in 1951. And the story tof ST akes place after that maybe maybe Holly had watched it and Vecna is configuring his looks according to that, we saw the Max saw Vecna in the camoztaz in the white lab costume, maybe he's changing his appearance according to different kids to make him look more trustworthy. Maybe he steals 8's aka Kali's power like Eleven's in season 3 and the scientist are trying to get her power back in the upside down like project nina.
he didnt “steal” kali’s power, vecna has always had the whole range of psychic powers, if anything kali took his illusion powers since all the kids in the lab were injected w his blood
also he didnt steal eleven’s power, eleven was severly exhausted and brain damaged by the overuse of her powers during her fight with billy/the mindflayer that her powers were “locked”
the military is keeping kali to experiment on her to find how to stop and control eleven (and possibly vecna), with her they found out sound waves weaken eleven, thats what the “kryptonite” they kept mentioning was all about
Ohhh that’s interesting
I think it might be the other way around. Henry may have watched Alice In Wonderland as a child in 1951 and is now taking inspiration from it in the present day for Camazotz.
(Also, Vecna already has the abilities 008 possesses before she was born, and on a larger scale)
It started as being crazy then it made sense down the line
You Cooked Fr 🔥
Not my theory btw 😭
There's a shot in the trailer showing the Mind Flayer in the radio tower so this might be right
yeah, someone cooked here
HOLLY IN UPSIDE DOWN-LAND!!!!!!!! D:
I’ll also throw out that one of the gates in season 1 (I think) is in a tree and Alice enters wonderland through a hole in the base of a tree.
Holly wearing Alice's clothes is actually so creepy 😳
Great work detective
You literally went down the rabbit hole
im so with this. i absolutely love this theory it would make perfect sense.
I just think they decided it would be cool to include references from Alice in Wonderland, especially in season 5, because of the whole Upside Down thing. And she's a blonde girl, so that's also something they could take advantage of to create associations. They're already heavily influenced by pop culture and genre literature, so why not?
Detail that make this feel even more plausible:
Holly doesn't wear the blue Alice in Wonderland dress in normal world but she does in Henry's world.
I don’t know why but I was getting little red riding hood vibes when Holly decided to go into the woods with a box and a hood on
This an awesome theory!! Thank you for sharing this!!
I have seen a lot of these theories on sub recently and this is a by far the best one .
There are SO MANY rabbit references. At the end of season 4 in the last 5 mins Karen passes Nancy a box of donations and she exclaimed "Mr rabbit!" And also in Elle's baby room at her mom and aunt's place, there's rabbits around the room as decoration. There are a few more I can't remember off the top of my head, but anytime I notice a rabbit in the show I think of "follow the white rabbit!" Same goes for the lions and tigers. I wish the Duffers would release an encyclopedia with all the references and Easter eggs in the show
..they kinda cooked.
Jefferson Airplane - White Rabbit is also played in season 1
Yeah somebody just told me that
wow this is insane if they weren’t thinking of featuring her as heavily as they did in Season 5 bc those are some crazy coincidental details (which we do not believe!)
Also red is a occurring theme when it comes to Vecna and Dimension X. Perhaps this is a reference to the Red Queen (Queen of Hearts).
Peak theory/
DAYAM. Stunning
Great theory!
This is awesome!
Yeah this moght be actual foreshadowing and not reverse foreshadowing
so its wrinkle in time, alice in wonderland, back to the future, and D&D
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
dont usually like bogus theories but this is cool, regardless its true or not, still cool
STOP THIS IS REALLY GOOD.
I love this! Also nothing to do with your theory but in the first season they use that song “White Rabbit” I think it’s the very first episode actually. So you might have something here!!
Nancy gave away Mr. Rabbit at end of season 4. Seemed random
And max is the mad hatter
Mad max
First animal Jonathan’s dad made him kill while hunting was a rabbit - mentioned in season 1
If we go alone with the theory Henry is the rabbit in the Alice in Wonderland analogy, maybe this foreshadows Jonathan is the one to kill him.
Oh shi…
t
Goated theory. She is DEFINITELY dressed exactly as Alice in that blue dress combo. I even thought that while watching. It also means that the Duffer brothers had already come up with this well in the past, and this isn't an 11th hour rewrite to include the younger characters all of a sudden.
So I should watch this on shooms is what your saying right?
Kinda off topic, but I’m named after Alice in Wonderland, and I remember texting a friend like “I totally vibe with Holly”. Anyway. That’s scary and I’m shook
This is NOT coincidence.
I certainly noticed the dress. Im not sure about the validity of the rest of the theory. Fun idea though.
I really like the theory in which Vecna is trying to bring Dimension X to our dimension through the Upside Down!
Spoilers! They come out slower in other countries
Off with her head?
HOLY BAJOLY MY MIND IS BLOWN
You're cooking and then ate.
Love this, very cute. More of this please, subreddit!
In season 1 toddler holly wanders off inside the Byers home, right before she’s found the demigorgan starts coming through the wall at her but then her mom and Joyce walk in. It makes me wonder if her being taken was set up back then already.
you're cooking, friend. i like this.
This is a fantastic theory
and Vecna’s repeated symbol is a clock
the fact they were after Holly was a known fact since the "evil stuff" wanted to get her since SEASON 1 (when they visited Winona Ryders's character, and the thing* was coming out of the wall)
I refuse to believe Henry is "the main villain", so I hope this theory is right and he's not as almighty as he thinks he is.... and he doesn't rule the upside down (like he thinks he does).
This is a brilliant fan theory. Thanks for sharing.
I noticed the nod with the dress, but not all the other details. Good eye!
damn hold on
Once again, this is not foreshadowing, it's a callback
Ohh we are cooking with this one. The kitchen is heating up!
THE RABBIT IS A PEDOPHILE
This has to be the best Stranger Things related post I’ve seen since the new season started! That is a really cool concept and took some brains to string together. You are appreciated
Mmm delicious. 👏👏👏
I like the theroy but this show is also just a BIG GIANT NOSTALGIA / EASTER EGG farm. every episode has references to other things / pop culture / thats its pretty easy to just link things because its just using existing things to push those nostalgic receptors in our brains.
We've seen references from the Goonies, to Superman, to Marvel Comics, to Ghost busters, to the big obvious D&D. and a lot of these references sometimes are multi layered where they are a reference to two things at once.
In Alice’s room, there’s an Alice in wonderland poster
https://imgur.com/a/BhWm7aR
I’m not sure if they show it in full at some point, because I paused when I saw this
Knew 100% what was gonna pop up when I googled the names
Also:
https://imgur.com/a/DjKK9U1
grab a plate and a seat cos you are COOKING
That's pretty interesting lore
sometimes theories make me bummed out because we give too much credit to writers sometimes and expect them to be so smart with it when actually no.
the theories are great and they match up so well but it happens that the writers didn't think of how we thought it. soo i hope you're on to something here
I really hope Vecna isn’t the end all be all. I was very disappointed when it was set up like that in season 4. Dimension X existed before El ever opened a gate. Before Henry became Vecna. He said its untouched by humanity but an eldritch being isn’t humanity. It would make the world feel… small i guess? If there was no force behind it?
What is the theory exactly, that the Holly story line is based on Alice in Wonderland? If the only conclusion we can draw from this is that Vecna is a servant of the Mind Flayer then that's not really new knowledge, we already knew this.
You know what? A+ work. Honestly.
A lot of people say a lot of dumb shit about this show with their terrible theories, but this honestly adds up in a way LOST used to gives clues before it derailed. I like this a lot - it may not actually give us answers, but there's clear and obvious inspiration, turned darkly on it's head.
Big fan of this.