Someone argued this with me so I'm seeking clarity. As of the moment Kaladin put the cloak on that was given to him by Dalinar, he accepted his role in the line of succession. Also at that moment Dalinar and Navani were indesposed. Does that mean Kaladin was officially King Regent of Urithiru when he joined the Heralds?
I don't think it was ever official, as Dalinar basically just asked Kaladin ton consider the option, and Renarin pretty much accepts the kingship at the end of WaT, thinking about how he'll reform it with Jasnah's help into something more democratic. Which makes sense because Kaladin is gone at the end of the book, known to be "dead" (at least by the time the in-world Winds and Truth book is being made - the author mentions talking to Jasnah about what happened during the days of WaT)
I think Szeth's wife the world believes Kal and Syl to be dead due to Szeth and Nibghtblood's testimonies. They were the only people present after all. Though she does mention The Wind talking to her (maybe everyone) but I don't think it's ever mentioned what it said.
Technically, Kaladin is dead
I think technically yes, you have to be king to be herald of kings, after all.
Then he got inmidiatly deposed in absentia and replaced by some kind of senate (I think, it has been a while)
Why would you have to be king to be herald of kings?
Yeah I don't think he has to be a literal king.
Kaladin's a leader of Men and I think that's good enough for the job title.
We dont have a large enough sample size to say that you have to be a King to be Herald of Kings
The Heralds seem to accept him as their king. That may be enough.
They seem to accept him, no indication that acceptance gives him leadership. Ishar is in charge
Officially, no, he does not become king or urithiru just by putting on the cloak. No documents were signed, no coronation, etc.
That being said, I don’t think that invalidates the significance of that moment. He may not officially become a king in that moment, but I think him accepting his place as a king likely has spiritual/cognitive consequences in the Cosmere. So he is a king in all the ways that matter for his new role as Herald of Kings (which, I don’t think he technically has to be a king to be Herald of Kings, but he had to accept that he could be a leader in that way)
In the same moment that Dalinar dies, Navani cannot rule and Kaladin "dies". So no, he never officially becomes regent. There's no one left in the official line of succession, Adolin is in a foreign nation, and Jasnah is already queen-in-exile of Alethkar, so it is offered to Renarin who accepts and wants to go the senate route
I mean it wasn't instantaneous so there was the briefest of moments there. But I agree now that it wasn't official. Dalinar did say there was more to the process.
Tbf, that moment also cements the death of Jasnah's kingdom.
That's quitter talk!
Practically, no, because of not being present for it to matter. Legally, he is as far as I'm concerned. I can't wait until book 6.
The Return of the King
The Way (Back) of King round 2
The Return of The ... no, that can't be it!
I don’t think Kaladin was ever literal king of Urithiru.
I think what happened with the cloak was that Kaladin symbolically accepted the idea that he is willing to lead and be a public symbol of leadership, as Dalinar had requested. The cloak was proof for himself and others (including Nale and Ishar) that someone whose authority Kaladin respected (and who’d held the shard of Honor!) found him worthy of kingship.
So is that important? You might argue Kal’s not really king so his oath/title is meaningless, or less interesting than he would have been had he been actual king of Urithiru. Here’s why I think it matters: The crown Kal actually accepted was broader than Urithiru. He committed himself when he put on the cloak and took the oath as a Herald to stepping up and publicly working to lead on behalf of all of Roshar (not just the coalition parts). And because of his other oaths, he’s saying he’s going to do it without assassinations of convenience, and while making a good faith effort to protect those who need him, no matter who they are.
IMO, Kaladin’s oaths and position are going to set up a direct ideological conflict with Taravangian, who is actually ruling most of the planet at this point, (and who is also being a huge hypocrite about his plan to take power so he can “save” everybody). It’s similar to when “one more try” put Kaladin in direct opposition to Sadeas’ plans for the bridgemen. Unlike Dalinar/Honor, even as a Herald, Kaladin doesn’t have the ability to oppose Retribution as an equal and tear Roshar apart, but he can still intervene meaningfully, and now he essentially has to. It’s similar to book 1, where Dalinar/Sadeas were evenly matched but wound up allied at the Tower largely because of an effort on Dalinar’s part to keep Alethkar together. Kaladin, who held much less overt power, still made a meaningful difference when he saved Dalinar and his army in the end. I think that history is repeating itself.
He's not and it doesn't even matter imo, the herald of Kings sits above kings and emperors
I don’t think the Heralds are meant to be “above” anyone
Well they’re kind of gods to these people so..
Wasn't this literally the point of Nohadon's book? Lol
I also wonder, but I guess I’m not sure why the scene on day 1 where they talk all about the line of succession would have happened at all if not.
Dalinar asked Kaladin to consider being the heir and somewhat informally adopted him, but at the time he did not accept. By the end of WaT, it seems leadership over the Tower was being thrusted towards Renarin - who fit the Radiant criteria - and he declined and decided to set up a parliamentary system instead. Not to mention, Navani was still alive, if only indisposed.
--
On the other hand, "King Regent" is not a really a term, and is kinda redundant. A King is a Regent. A Lord Regent would be a Noble acting with the authority of a King, but a King is, well, just a King. Unless they are a King Consort, which is the spouse of a Queen. They might also be called Prince Consort instead, in order to hem in the fact that they are not the actual power because "King" is often thought of as the Regent. On the other hand, Queen actually has three terms: Queen Consort (wife of King), Queen Regnant (Female ruler) and Queen Mother (Mother of the King). Why is there a term for Queen Regnant while a "King Regnant" is just King? Well, for a while the regent was simply the King while most Queens were consorts.
In the case of Dalinar and Navani, they were co-monarchs, so King and Queen Regnant with (theoretical) equal power. While uncommon, it is not unheard of. William III and Mary II of England were co-monarchs (for the most part), but perhaps the most famous case was Fulk the Younger and Melisende of Jerusalem. Melisende was the eldest daughter and heir of Baldwin II, and Fulk was the very wealthy Count of Anjou who would wed her and bring resources to Jerusalem. Fulk didn't want to be a King Consort and part of the deal was he would be a real King. Meanwhile, Baldwin II feared his daughter's position being usurped, so he pulled a pro-gamer move and named as his heir not just Fulk, not just Melisende, but both and their eldest son, Baldwin. So, after the passing of Baldwin II, the monarch of Jerusalem was Fulk, Melisende and Baldwin III. This did indeed cause many problems, both between the husband and wife, and mother and son.
--
Anyway, Navani is a Queen Regnant, and so even though Dalinar died, like in the case of Fulk the Younger and Melisende of Jerusalem, Navani is still the Queen. So, neither Kaladin, Shallan or Dami would inherit because the current monarchs - well, one half of the pair - is still alive. But, as they are indisposed, they would have a regent acting on their behalf, or by Renarin's suggestion, a parliament taking control of the government.
Navani is still alive, so she's still Queen until deposed (which never happens in WaT)
Oh, I thought it meant that he was now “a therapist!!” 😜
It's not like Kaladin replaced Jezrien perfectly. The heralds were all fucked and broken, they needed a healer more than a leader.