I was just wondering if its round to mimic the planet. But you can travel to other worlds through it. So if you kept walking one direction, what would happen exactly?
Presumably, though I'm not sure if it'll ever come up in any books. Since Shadesmar essentially represents areas that people think about, there's certainly a finite amount of people and thus stuff they've thought about
The cognitive realms are largely based on folk’s perception of their own reality. It’s why they all look different on each world. When people begin to realize just how large the gulf between stars is, the distances between the various realms will grow. Probably not even close to far enough, but it could make navigation between worlds impossible.
Think of it this way. How long a journey do you think you could drive between Earth and the moon? It would take ~165 days (I’m doing some rounding here) if you drove nonstop at 60mph. With that in mind, when you’re talking about going to a different solar system, it’s easy to believe it would take more than 100 years to get there. You’d still be off by whole orders of magnitude, but even scratching the surface the bridges stretch to become impassible because people will be able to point to a world and know that you just can’t make a journey that long.
And just to make sure none of you can pass through a cognitive realms ever again, going 60mph it would take 48,767,166 or so years of non stop driving to get to Alpha Centauri.
But people can’t really conceptutalize the difference between stars. It’s simply too vast for humans to understand. [emberdark] this is pretty much confirmed in Emberdark iirc, where people do know about the distance between planets, and it only leads to an almost negligible expansion of the space between planets in the cognitive realm
When people begin to realize just how large the gulf between stars is,
People won't, not on any deep level. It just becomes a meaningless big number in their minds, just like it does on Earth.
but it could make navigation between worlds impossible.
Isles of the Emberdark it doesn't make navigation impossible, but it does make mapping impossible. Shadesmar is constantly shifting and warping according to perceptions.
And just to make sure none of you can pass through a cognitive realms ever again,
It doesn't work that way, because it isn't based in individual perception. It's based on the collective unconscious.
I believe there has been been WoB's about this, basically confirming that one of the major factors currently allowing (relatively) easy travel between planets via Shadesmar is the general ignorance of each world's population as to each other and the actual distances involved. Once those distances are measured and accepted by the populace at large that planet will effectively become unreachable except via normal(ish) methods.
[Sunlit Man/Emberdark/MB Era 2] Which definitely explains why the Scadrians have had to invent space ships that use time dilation on top of assumedly ludicrous speeds. The real question is how are the future Rosharans accomplishing the same? My best guess is that transportation will become a far more important surge in the latter 5 books.
Once those distances are measured and accepted by the populace at large that planet will effectively become unreachable except via normal(ish) methods.
You had it right up to this point, the distance in Shadesmar is basically never going to equal the distance in the Physical due to human minds being incapable of perceiving the distances:
Nico Bufasassa:
If everyone in the Cosmere begins to understand that there is space travel, does that change the distance needed to travel around in Shadesmar considering it's made up of the beliefs of the people?
Brandon Sanderson:
What's going to happen is it is going to make the travel distances longer. However, people cannot conceive the immensity of space. The amount different it's going to make it is not going to be so vast that it's insurmountable. It's not going to come one fractional piece of what the actual distance is.
I think the Scadrian speed/time dilation tech exists because faster is always better, no matter which dimension you're travelling in.
Fun additional fact, distance in Shadesmar will also increase as people become aware of planets in between destination points, as planets without life don't appear in Shadesmar by default :)
You're dead on, thanks for the clarification there. When I said normal(ish) methods I just meant they're actually going to need real long-distance vessels prepared for a serious voyage instead of just a good map, a backpack, and some investiture.
I think the right comparison would probably be going from having a portal that takes you across the ocean to having to make the journey via sailing. It's still doable but the considerations when it comes to things like moving troops and supplies as well as defending territory change entirely.
Ah gotcha, I assumed you meant Physical realm FLT when I read 'normal(ish) methods, my b. Definitely agree on those comparisons, it's gonna get much harder to move anything in Shadesmar.
My theory is that they are gonna have big Spren AI ships like smaller/mobile versions of the the Sibling/Tower, using Shadesmar almost exclusively for travel, Transporting to the Physical upon arrival
Unlike in the real world, many people will already be thinking of those planets as reachable due to the cognitive realm, so it shouldn't have too much impact imo.
Agreed, but my head canon is that the empty parts go on forever, but the useful parts are sparse. So you could get lost forever if you find an ‘edge’ civilization and just walk away from everything else for a while. Dunno though
For lack of a better term: what is the map projection used for localized Cognitive reflections of planets? Since each planet is a sphere, it seems odd that their Shadesmar equivalents could flatten out in a way such that a space that is physically near would cognitively be on the other side of the Cognitive map.
Or, if I may reference Thor: Ragnorok, is it more like a freaky circle?
It would probably work like our actual map projections. It is most common on Earth to see a map that has the Americas on the left/west, and Asia on the right/east with Europe and Africa in the center
Our subastral would probably turn out the same, except with less ocean between continents because people think about that less. Places with more cultural significance, like New York, London, Beijing or Tokyo might appear to be approximately equivalent in size to their physical counterparts, but the empty Mongolian stepps might be underrepresented
For example, assuming a map projection of Earth cut off at North America (more or less) on the west side, and Russia being on the far east, if then Earth was flattened into its Cognitive projection, there is no direct, across-the-Pacific route to Japan; you have to travel East alllllll the way to get to Japan. Or is there a freaky, mind-bendy workaround that lets it be flat, but also allows for circumnavigation?
For Cosmere worlds that are at a level of advancement to fully understand the spherical nature and the ability to circumnavigate their world, how does this work? If there is an effective centerpoint of the map, are the people at the edges navigationally boned?
To a degree, yes. At least from the glimpse we got of Scadrial's cognitive. There, the subastral for Scadrial butts up against Sel's and probably Threnody's. The different planets flow together with only small transition zones between them. It means travel to other parts of your world might be longer, but you also have ready access to parts of foreign planets.
Shadesmar is also the cognitive realm so it's shaped by thoughts. And while we logically know the world is round the way we interact with it, is as a flat world. You also get distances in general are thrown off. It was mentioned in row when they were making their way down from urithiru the cliff distance wasn't as far as it should've been as people's perception warps it. So oceans or anywhere that isn't thought of as a specific location will distort and that's how it becomes flat. But if you keep walking you'll get into space but that really isn't thought of as each specific location so that's very condensed. And then you can walk to other planets in other systems.
Is this a good one to read after finishing Stormlight Archive? I’ve got about 200 pages of Wind & Truth left (!!!) and I can’t decide if I pick up Mistborn or try a standalone book (I already read Warbreaker) or do a complete palate-cleanser and read something non-Sanderson.
Definitely do mistborn (both series) before emberdark imo. The standalone's can go in any time (except to start with imo), just know that Sixth of Dusk is reprinted in Emberdark.
Thanks! I started Mistborn earlier this month when I was traveling because I didn’t want to lug Wind & Truth across the country. Then I left book 1 on the plane :(
Emberdark was written very recently and it's somewhat assumed that anyone reading that book likely read SLA/MB first. You can absolutely go into it just knowing SLA and you'll get 90% of the references, however I definitely agree with the other response that you should read MB first if you're already planning to.
It's hard for me to remember exactly what books/plots are relevant to the story but IMO Emberdark reads very much like the accounts from an early scientific expedition. Knowing the current understanding from the perspective of more than one planet/populace will help make the revelations more impactful.
Not to mention there's the potential that Emberdark spoils certain understandings or mechanics you're absolutely not supposed to understand while reading MB era 1. If by chance you did it that way there's the potential for certain story elements to just not play out how they're supposed to, and MB Era 1 is full of juicy questions that are answered exactly when they're meant to be and not a moment before.
I wont sit back and let them archanists tell me Roshar aint flat. If the almighty made the world round then why cant I see no curve? They try and say its the same high storm that blows around the world. Nales nuts gancho! What a load of crem. Whats next? They gonna say the Almighty's dead? Kaleks breath.
It stands to reason that, assuming Roshar is mostly spherical like Earth, Shadesmar would be shaped either: a flat plane as a result of the inversion passing through the origin. Or, if the inversion doesn’t pass through the origin, then it would be another sphere
But Shadesmar is shaped entirely by perception, and AFAIK there are no major populations that are aware their planet is a sphere. When the average sentient being in the Cosmere sees a flat ground everywhere they go it creates a Shadesmar that operates as basically an infinite 2d plane. You can walk/sail in a perfectly straight, flat line from one planet to another currently.
I also believe WOB's have confirmed however that the cognitive realm is highly susceptible to changes in belief, and if/when the average person on a planet understands it to be a sphere and located unfathomably far away from all of the other planets then that will reflect in the cognitive. At that point travelling via Shadesmar would be little different than doing so in the physical.
I assumed that was resultant of collective imagination from all the cosmere so I assumed that had some shaping involved in it. However, you bring up some fantastic points
Just to add, elsewhere in the thread I was corrected that the cognitive realm will only stretch to what a human mind can actually comprehend in terms of distance as that's exactly what it reflects.
So while you or I can be told Alpha Centauri is 4LY away and understand/believe that to be correct at the same time if you gave a person a marble and said "This is Earth, how far away do you think Alpha Centauri would be?" the actual distance they would guess would be overwhelmingly likely to still be inside our own solar system.
So the cognitive is likely to stretch into a something close to a single solar system in size - still immense, but something that can be traversed on the scale of months/years instead of lifetimes.
One thing I hadn't considered before just now is cultural/social proximity though. Theoretically two planets that see themselves as closely allied and well connected should theoretically reflect that in the cognitive as well.
Shadesmar is, for all intents and purposes, flat
Does it end then?
Presumably, though I'm not sure if it'll ever come up in any books. Since Shadesmar essentially represents areas that people think about, there's certainly a finite amount of people and thus stuff they've thought about
Which is really going to mess things up when astronomy gets going
How so?
The cognitive realms are largely based on folk’s perception of their own reality. It’s why they all look different on each world. When people begin to realize just how large the gulf between stars is, the distances between the various realms will grow. Probably not even close to far enough, but it could make navigation between worlds impossible.
Think of it this way. How long a journey do you think you could drive between Earth and the moon? It would take ~165 days (I’m doing some rounding here) if you drove nonstop at 60mph. With that in mind, when you’re talking about going to a different solar system, it’s easy to believe it would take more than 100 years to get there. You’d still be off by whole orders of magnitude, but even scratching the surface the bridges stretch to become impassible because people will be able to point to a world and know that you just can’t make a journey that long.
And just to make sure none of you can pass through a cognitive realms ever again, going 60mph it would take 48,767,166 or so years of non stop driving to get to Alpha Centauri.
But people can’t really conceptutalize the difference between stars. It’s simply too vast for humans to understand. [emberdark] this is pretty much confirmed in Emberdark iirc, where people do know about the distance between planets, and it only leads to an almost negligible expansion of the space between planets in the cognitive realm
People won't, not on any deep level. It just becomes a meaningless big number in their minds, just like it does on Earth.
Isles of the Emberdark it doesn't make navigation impossible, but it does make mapping impossible. Shadesmar is constantly shifting and warping according to perceptions.
It doesn't work that way, because it isn't based in individual perception. It's based on the collective unconscious.
I believe there has been been WoB's about this, basically confirming that one of the major factors currently allowing (relatively) easy travel between planets via Shadesmar is the general ignorance of each world's population as to each other and the actual distances involved. Once those distances are measured and accepted by the populace at large that planet will effectively become unreachable except via normal(ish) methods.
[Sunlit Man/Emberdark/MB Era 2] Which definitely explains why the Scadrians have had to invent space ships that use time dilation on top of assumedly ludicrous speeds. The real question is how are the future Rosharans accomplishing the same? My best guess is that transportation will become a far more important surge in the latter 5 books.
You had it right up to this point, the distance in Shadesmar is basically never going to equal the distance in the Physical due to human minds being incapable of perceiving the distances:
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e15979
I think the Scadrian speed/time dilation tech exists because faster is always better, no matter which dimension you're travelling in.
Fun additional fact, distance in Shadesmar will also increase as people become aware of planets in between destination points, as planets without life don't appear in Shadesmar by default :)
source: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/498/#e15667
You're dead on, thanks for the clarification there. When I said normal(ish) methods I just meant they're actually going to need real long-distance vessels prepared for a serious voyage instead of just a good map, a backpack, and some investiture.
I think the right comparison would probably be going from having a portal that takes you across the ocean to having to make the journey via sailing. It's still doable but the considerations when it comes to things like moving troops and supplies as well as defending territory change entirely.
Ah gotcha, I assumed you meant Physical realm FLT when I read 'normal(ish) methods, my b. Definitely agree on those comparisons, it's gonna get much harder to move anything in Shadesmar.
My theory is that they are gonna have big Spren AI ships like smaller/mobile versions of the the Sibling/Tower, using Shadesmar almost exclusively for travel, Transporting to the Physical upon arrival
Unlike in the real world, many people will already be thinking of those planets as reachable due to the cognitive realm, so it shouldn't have too much impact imo.
Agreed, but my head canon is that the empty parts go on forever, but the useful parts are sparse. So you could get lost forever if you find an ‘edge’ civilization and just walk away from everything else for a while. Dunno though
Yes but only because it becomes something else.
Yes, but only because it continues in a different way. Yes that is contradictory.
For lack of a better term: what is the map projection used for localized Cognitive reflections of planets? Since each planet is a sphere, it seems odd that their Shadesmar equivalents could flatten out in a way such that a space that is physically near would cognitively be on the other side of the Cognitive map.
Or, if I may reference Thor: Ragnorok, is it more like a freaky circle?
It would probably work like our actual map projections. It is most common on Earth to see a map that has the Americas on the left/west, and Asia on the right/east with Europe and Africa in the center
Our subastral would probably turn out the same, except with less ocean between continents because people think about that less. Places with more cultural significance, like New York, London, Beijing or Tokyo might appear to be approximately equivalent in size to their physical counterparts, but the empty Mongolian stepps might be underrepresented
But what about the "wrap around"?
For example, assuming a map projection of Earth cut off at North America (more or less) on the west side, and Russia being on the far east, if then Earth was flattened into its Cognitive projection, there is no direct, across-the-Pacific route to Japan; you have to travel East alllllll the way to get to Japan. Or is there a freaky, mind-bendy workaround that lets it be flat, but also allows for circumnavigation?
For Cosmere worlds that are at a level of advancement to fully understand the spherical nature and the ability to circumnavigate their world, how does this work? If there is an effective centerpoint of the map, are the people at the edges navigationally boned?
To a degree, yes. At least from the glimpse we got of Scadrial's cognitive. There, the subastral for Scadrial butts up against Sel's and probably Threnody's. The different planets flow together with only small transition zones between them. It means travel to other parts of your world might be longer, but you also have ready access to parts of foreign planets.
Shadesmar is also the cognitive realm so it's shaped by thoughts. And while we logically know the world is round the way we interact with it, is as a flat world. You also get distances in general are thrown off. It was mentioned in row when they were making their way down from urithiru the cliff distance wasn't as far as it should've been as people's perception warps it. So oceans or anywhere that isn't thought of as a specific location will distort and that's how it becomes flat. But if you keep walking you'll get into space but that really isn't thought of as each specific location so that's very condensed. And then you can walk to other planets in other systems.
RAFO. This is directly answered in other cosmere books.
Which one?
Isles of the Emberdark is all about the cosmology of the cognitive realm.
Is this a good one to read after finishing Stormlight Archive? I’ve got about 200 pages of Wind & Truth left (!!!) and I can’t decide if I pick up Mistborn or try a standalone book (I already read Warbreaker) or do a complete palate-cleanser and read something non-Sanderson.
Definitely do mistborn (both series) before emberdark imo. The standalone's can go in any time (except to start with imo), just know that Sixth of Dusk is reprinted in Emberdark.
Thanks! I started Mistborn earlier this month when I was traveling because I didn’t want to lug Wind & Truth across the country. Then I left book 1 on the plane :(
Emberdark was written very recently and it's somewhat assumed that anyone reading that book likely read SLA/MB first. You can absolutely go into it just knowing SLA and you'll get 90% of the references, however I definitely agree with the other response that you should read MB first if you're already planning to.
It's hard for me to remember exactly what books/plots are relevant to the story but IMO Emberdark reads very much like the accounts from an early scientific expedition. Knowing the current understanding from the perspective of more than one planet/populace will help make the revelations more impactful.
Not to mention there's the potential that Emberdark spoils certain understandings or mechanics you're absolutely not supposed to understand while reading MB era 1. If by chance you did it that way there's the potential for certain story elements to just not play out how they're supposed to, and MB Era 1 is full of juicy questions that are answered exactly when they're meant to be and not a moment before.
Ah. Haven't read that one yet.
I wont sit back and let them archanists tell me Roshar aint flat. If the almighty made the world round then why cant I see no curve? They try and say its the same high storm that blows around the world. Nales nuts gancho! What a load of crem. Whats next? They gonna say the Almighty's dead? Kaleks breath.
It stands to reason that, assuming Roshar is mostly spherical like Earth, Shadesmar would be shaped either: a flat plane as a result of the inversion passing through the origin. Or, if the inversion doesn’t pass through the origin, then it would be another sphere
But Shadesmar is shaped entirely by perception, and AFAIK there are no major populations that are aware their planet is a sphere. When the average sentient being in the Cosmere sees a flat ground everywhere they go it creates a Shadesmar that operates as basically an infinite 2d plane. You can walk/sail in a perfectly straight, flat line from one planet to another currently.
I also believe WOB's have confirmed however that the cognitive realm is highly susceptible to changes in belief, and if/when the average person on a planet understands it to be a sphere and located unfathomably far away from all of the other planets then that will reflect in the cognitive. At that point travelling via Shadesmar would be little different than doing so in the physical.
I assumed that was resultant of collective imagination from all the cosmere so I assumed that had some shaping involved in it. However, you bring up some fantastic points
Just to add, elsewhere in the thread I was corrected that the cognitive realm will only stretch to what a human mind can actually comprehend in terms of distance as that's exactly what it reflects.
So while you or I can be told Alpha Centauri is 4LY away and understand/believe that to be correct at the same time if you gave a person a marble and said "This is Earth, how far away do you think Alpha Centauri would be?" the actual distance they would guess would be overwhelmingly likely to still be inside our own solar system.
So the cognitive is likely to stretch into a something close to a single solar system in size - still immense, but something that can be traversed on the scale of months/years instead of lifetimes.
One thing I hadn't considered before just now is cultural/social proximity though. Theoretically two planets that see themselves as closely allied and well connected should theoretically reflect that in the cognitive as well.
Depends
No, RAFO