I love how both of them took different parts of GMS's combat style
FS uses those sword pins just like her mother.
Widow restricts movement and uses the enviroment for her advantage with bells just like how GMS uses her silk to bring spikes from below and drop giant rocks from above.
and both of them have the claw attack just like their mother.
Is it likely though? Either the quarter-weaver “staked to service” is a loose end, or Widow somehow has memories of all the weavers serving GMS, a Weavenest full of Weavers, and is delusional about “of the first, the last”
Probably the lore tablet you find in the cradle attached to a cage -
“Weaver, in quarter part, last of their line, staked to service.
Tracked and taken beneath the City of Steel.
Eight Choristors, twelve Envoys lost to task”
Additionally, every time Hornet mentions widow, she always provides some deniability/uncertainty that Widow was a weaver (“her body seemed a weaver’s”).
That being said, it definitely conflicts with Widow’s attitude, memory and appearance
The 1/4 Weaver staked to service is a complete loose end if it isn’t Widow, but given the steel city mention it might be setup for DLC
Hmmm, from my understanding of the lore, I think they would have absolutely hated each other.
Widow is a fanatic, blindly devoted to Grand Mother Silk despite being abused and disfigured by her.
First Sinner rebelled against Grand Mother Silk after discovering the Weaver’s true origins, and realising that everything Grand Mother Silk had told them about where they came from was a lie.
Technically it’s ambiguous who First Sinner rebelled against. Based on the markings it was post-citadel, which would imply that the first sinner’s sin was declaring the weavers as not holy (that’s why they are an apostate), meaning she rebelled against the weavers, not GMS (however, it also appears that they don’t particularly adore GMS either for the lie).
Probably both. It doesn’t make much sense for her to have been constricted during GMS’ first reign, since the rebellious weavers probably wouldn’t have left their martyr’s body in a dank shithole.
There’s also the mild “evidence” that FS IS Atla (Atla’s effigy being found 2 rooms over, Atla being praised as the weaver of history and time, Weavenest Atla and FS both being pioneers of silk tunes) which suggests she participated in and lived through at least part of the rebellion.
widow is only a fanatic due to being lobotomized (essentially) and reprogrammed (again, essentially) to like GMS
I don't know the limits of mask removal but my assumption is it is similar to a lobotomy or brain surgery since mask maker (HK) says masks are "a bugs purpose" iirc, so widow most likely didn't like GMS before mask removal. We she her earliest memory (i completely forgot the cutscene) when she has had her mask removed, so my assumption is something the whiteward bugs or other citadel bugs did to make widow like GMS.
Her cradle memory is seen when she has her second mask, so not much there.
?? Where do you even get that information? Widow was a insane GMS fan even before the haunting. Her earliest memories are literally "…For Her light…eternal…Our song sustains.."(this memory was before GMS was even sealed and Widow had her mask removed)
She also stayed behind when her sisters ran away. She even calls Hornet "Spawn of those who dared to flee" + she has a memory in the cradle that is just her wishing for her mother to wake up. showing us that Widow has been waiting for a long time.
Widow went a bit insane but her views didn’t change. She is a day 1 GMS supporter. She just went from wanting to help her mother to wanting to be her slave Styx style and do whatever she wants.
From "…For Her light…eternal…Our song sustains.." to "They shall join... Union upon your thread... A gift, for your waking. A world strung to serve..."
Her journal entry says "A weaver whose masked seemed to be torn off". There's also files of images that were going to be used in a removed cutscene, and the images included a normal weaver, surgery table (similar to whiteward) and the weaver mask being cracked open. Also, I assume you are referring to the cradle widow memory, in which she is seen with the mask she got after her original mask got opened.
I know that part. That’s why I included the first part where Widow was a GMS fan even before losing her mask + GMS being sealed. The cutscene we get after Widow’s defeat shows this. This is to show that Widow losing her mask and going insane didn’t "reprogram her to like GMS". She liked GMS even before losing her mask.
For the 2nd one. That is removed content so I won’t talk about it much.
Just that GMS doesn’t NEED to change Widow in the current game version. Since Widow is already loyal.
And lastly.. these types of memories are from extremely long time ago. I know Widow didn’t have her mask. That doesn’t change the fact that she was waiting for a long time. Enough to make one of these needoline memories that seem from long time ago.
When you defeat Widow you get this cutscene. It shows Widow playing a song for GMS. And Widow looking up to see her Mother. After this you get the text "…For her light…eternal…our song sustains…" which was clearly a thought that Widow had when GMS was active. Besides this whole "our song sustains" part was a thing only when GMS was active. Since that was the only time GMS wanted to hear songs.
For your 2nd point. GMS only has 1 loyal full Weaver. Which is Widow. GMS must’ve been a trash manipulator. The reason Widow is like this isn’t cuz of a manipulation but she genuinely loves GMS and wants to support her light for eternity. That’s why she didn’t run away when GMS was sealed and wanted her mother to wake up. Widow knows that she isn’t a true daughter but she just don’t care. She is the ONLY Weaver that supports GMS for that reason. She isn’t "manipulated" and "doesn’t know the truth".
Also you can’t rewrite a memory. Especially when You(aka Hornet in this case) literally see these events play out + see the thoughts of the person that have these memories at that specific moment.
In Widow’s case it seems to just have made her support GMS even more.
i don't remember if it's stated memories can't be rewritten but it's likely old ones can be wiped, so that memory was probably just something that was added to influence her personality. All of your evidence is also only coming from after widow gets her second mask. We don't see an actually untainted widow from anybody else. You're interpretation is interesting but I prefer mine.
It's more likely her mask was removed and pins installed by her fellow Weavers when she wouldn't join their rebellion. GMS had nothing to do with Whiteward directly.
The Weavers probably punished FS and Widow because they both challenged the Weavers' self-proposed divinity, the former by exposing how they were made, and the latter by serving a higher divinity.
We have no idea. First Sinner might have been imprisoned by GMS for rebelling, of by the Weavers for supporting GMS. Likewise, Widow may have been loyal to GMS and mutilated/enslaved by the Weavers before willingly supporting GMS, might have been neutral and enslaved by GMS during the coup, or might have been a rebel GMS mutilated/enslaved as revenge.
From what little we know. It seems to be anti-GMS weavers that locked FS up. First evidence is that there is only 1 GMS loyal weaver. That is Widow. So anti-GMS weavers would destroy her.
2nd of all. the specific crime. First Sinner is charged with "Apostate". Which is going against a religion basically. GMS never had a religion like that. The relationship between GMS and Weavers was never a religion but rather it was a relationship between a mother and her children(atleast intended). Anti-GMS Weavers on the other hand had one. The false religion that Weavers made that not only kept GMS sleep but kept them at the top.
3rd and final. If GMS loyalists(aka Widow and only her) locked First Sinner up. Anti-GMS weavers would’ve gotten her out. Since in the end they won. They sealed GMS. What is stopping them?
"She calles us divine, she lied." I think the use of the word "divine" shows that GMS had a kind of religion. Also it's kind of in the pale beings MO to establish a religion and have bugs worship them.
Personally I think FS petrified herself like the other remaining weavers, and it was the Haunted Citadel (so GMS) who imprisoned her statue.
The "Divine" in this case imo comes from the fact that who GMS is. GMS is a Pale Higher Being. On the same rank as PK and WL. Ofc she would call her daughters divine. Since well. She is LITERALLY a Pale Higher Being. If she wants to keep this daughter-Mother feeling going they have to believe that they are also divine beings just like their mother. If this was a religion GMS would’ve been the only "Divine" being and would’ve called Weavers something less nice. Like peasants. Wouldn’t have put them on the same level as their "God"
I mean.. maybe.. but there are cases like White Lady. And she don’t seem to care much about a potential "religion". Besides if there was a religion I honestly think atleast something would’ve survived to confirm it. There is like no records of another religion.
That seem unlikely. GMS is looking for silk and power. If GMS knew FS existed in the first place she would’ve consumed her silk long ago. Not let her stay in a prison as a corpse. Especially when that doesn’t benefit her at all. Besides FS’s cage is made with tons of protection that feels alot like Weaver work.
My interpretation (or headcanon call it what you like) is that they were married. Widow calls herself that because she lost her wife when she was imprisoned indefinitely, and to prevent widow from ever trying to free the first sinner or retaliating in any way, GMS pinned up her silk and (more importantly) ripped off her mask. And with her mask went her previous memories and dreams and such.
Look man you gotta read the vibes. Widow has so much rage in her words, demeanor, and music. And she’s called widow. It only makes sense to me that something horrible happened to her partner. So when I saw first sinner pop out in that wedding looking dress it all came together. I’m not crazy I am not crazy
politically divided besties
I love how both of them took different parts of GMS's combat style
FS uses those sword pins just like her mother.
Widow restricts movement and uses the enviroment for her advantage with bells just like how GMS uses her silk to bring spikes from below and drop giant rocks from above.
and both of them have the claw attack just like their mother.
“their mother” Widow would like a word with you
First Sinner's whole thing that led to her being an apostate was that mother stuff.
uh why
Widow is most likely weaver only in quarter part, like Hornet is only half weaver.
Is it likely though? Either the quarter-weaver “staked to service” is a loose end, or Widow somehow has memories of all the weavers serving GMS, a Weavenest full of Weavers, and is delusional about “of the first, the last”
How so
Probably the lore tablet you find in the cradle attached to a cage -
“Weaver, in quarter part, last of their line, staked to service. Tracked and taken beneath the City of Steel. Eight Choristors, twelve Envoys lost to task”
Additionally, every time Hornet mentions widow, she always provides some deniability/uncertainty that Widow was a weaver (“her body seemed a weaver’s”).
That being said, it definitely conflicts with Widow’s attitude, memory and appearance
The 1/4 Weaver staked to service is a complete loose end if it isn’t Widow, but given the steel city mention it might be setup for DLC
Widow wins the claw attack easily.
Neither of the other two make unholy creature noises during it.
Enemies to friends >:3
The claw flurry is more similar to pharlid attacks than GMS
Hmmm, from my understanding of the lore, I think they would have absolutely hated each other.
Widow is a fanatic, blindly devoted to Grand Mother Silk despite being abused and disfigured by her.
First Sinner rebelled against Grand Mother Silk after discovering the Weaver’s true origins, and realising that everything Grand Mother Silk had told them about where they came from was a lie.
Technically it’s ambiguous who First Sinner rebelled against. Based on the markings it was post-citadel, which would imply that the first sinner’s sin was declaring the weavers as not holy (that’s why they are an apostate), meaning she rebelled against the weavers, not GMS (however, it also appears that they don’t particularly adore GMS either for the lie).
Probably both. It doesn’t make much sense for her to have been constricted during GMS’ first reign, since the rebellious weavers probably wouldn’t have left their martyr’s body in a dank shithole.
There’s also the mild “evidence” that FS IS Atla (Atla’s effigy being found 2 rooms over, Atla being praised as the weaver of history and time, Weavenest Atla and FS both being pioneers of silk tunes) which suggests she participated in and lived through at least part of the rebellion.
widow is only a fanatic due to being lobotomized (essentially) and reprogrammed (again, essentially) to like GMS
I don't know the limits of mask removal but my assumption is it is similar to a lobotomy or brain surgery since mask maker (HK) says masks are "a bugs purpose" iirc, so widow most likely didn't like GMS before mask removal. We she her earliest memory (i completely forgot the cutscene) when she has had her mask removed, so my assumption is something the whiteward bugs or other citadel bugs did to make widow like GMS.
Her cradle memory is seen when she has her second mask, so not much there.
This means that, prior to the horrific shit done to her, she may have hated GMS. So... besties?
I wouldn't be too surprised if they were familiars, coworkers, or bestie before widow's lobotomy.
?? Where do you even get that information? Widow was a insane GMS fan even before the haunting. Her earliest memories are literally "…For Her light…eternal…Our song sustains.."(this memory was before GMS was even sealed and Widow had her mask removed)
She also stayed behind when her sisters ran away. She even calls Hornet "Spawn of those who dared to flee" + she has a memory in the cradle that is just her wishing for her mother to wake up. showing us that Widow has been waiting for a long time.
Widow went a bit insane but her views didn’t change. She is a day 1 GMS supporter. She just went from wanting to help her mother to wanting to be her slave Styx style and do whatever she wants.
From "…For Her light…eternal…Our song sustains.." to "They shall join... Union upon your thread... A gift, for your waking. A world strung to serve..."
Her journal entry says "A weaver whose masked seemed to be torn off". There's also files of images that were going to be used in a removed cutscene, and the images included a normal weaver, surgery table (similar to whiteward) and the weaver mask being cracked open. Also, I assume you are referring to the cradle widow memory, in which she is seen with the mask she got after her original mask got opened.
https://preview.redd.it/s8ce38cy5a6g1.png?width=1919&format=png&auto=webp&s=258652edd99662b90ee85b1186e437e1ef1887b3
I know that part. That’s why I included the first part where Widow was a GMS fan even before losing her mask + GMS being sealed. The cutscene we get after Widow’s defeat shows this. This is to show that Widow losing her mask and going insane didn’t "reprogram her to like GMS". She liked GMS even before losing her mask.
For the 2nd one. That is removed content so I won’t talk about it much.
Just that GMS doesn’t NEED to change Widow in the current game version. Since Widow is already loyal.
And lastly.. these types of memories are from extremely long time ago. I know Widow didn’t have her mask. That doesn’t change the fact that she was waiting for a long time. Enough to make one of these needoline memories that seem from long time ago.
You're forgetting that GMS was manipulating them, and that even for an early memory it may be rewritten because of her mask removal
A mask is a bugs life experiences, so widow getting hers removed liekly wiped her memory and maybe even added new ones or rewrote older ones.
I literally explained it in my comment.. but fine.
https://preview.redd.it/dcvjamlmba6g1.jpeg?width=2556&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3d7472f6655155845fc6bf607d205e6b562f5294
When you defeat Widow you get this cutscene. It shows Widow playing a song for GMS. And Widow looking up to see her Mother. After this you get the text "…For her light…eternal…our song sustains…" which was clearly a thought that Widow had when GMS was active. Besides this whole "our song sustains" part was a thing only when GMS was active. Since that was the only time GMS wanted to hear songs.
For your 2nd point. GMS only has 1 loyal full Weaver. Which is Widow. GMS must’ve been a trash manipulator. The reason Widow is like this isn’t cuz of a manipulation but she genuinely loves GMS and wants to support her light for eternity. That’s why she didn’t run away when GMS was sealed and wanted her mother to wake up. Widow knows that she isn’t a true daughter but she just don’t care. She is the ONLY Weaver that supports GMS for that reason. She isn’t "manipulated" and "doesn’t know the truth".
Also you can’t rewrite a memory. Especially when You(aka Hornet in this case) literally see these events play out + see the thoughts of the person that have these memories at that specific moment.
In Widow’s case it seems to just have made her support GMS even more.
i don't remember if it's stated memories can't be rewritten but it's likely old ones can be wiped, so that memory was probably just something that was added to influence her personality. All of your evidence is also only coming from after widow gets her second mask. We don't see an actually untainted widow from anybody else. You're interpretation is interesting but I prefer mine.
It's more likely her mask was removed and pins installed by her fellow Weavers when she wouldn't join their rebellion. GMS had nothing to do with Whiteward directly.
The Weavers probably punished FS and Widow because they both challenged the Weavers' self-proposed divinity, the former by exposing how they were made, and the latter by serving a higher divinity.
I was just saying it was a surgery table similar to the whiteward ones, not that it took place in whiteward
The yuri is real when you share a leitmotif, imagine how crazy the yuri is when you share a whole theme song
They were besties in the same way lace and hornet are
Are you insinuating all Weavers now each other?
I literally just said these 2, I said that by being alive so long they could cross paths
I was just making a joke lol. I probably shoulda added /s or something at the end to make it clear though, mb on that.
Oh oops XD, No problem lol
The first sin was stealing Widow's dress.
Kinda messed up how only one of them got arms.
That's weaverphobic
Oh no! How 🫣
Wasn’t first sinner imprisoned by weavers who were loyal to GMS? You know like widow?
We have no idea. First Sinner might have been imprisoned by GMS for rebelling, of by the Weavers for supporting GMS. Likewise, Widow may have been loyal to GMS and mutilated/enslaved by the Weavers before willingly supporting GMS, might have been neutral and enslaved by GMS during the coup, or might have been a rebel GMS mutilated/enslaved as revenge.
From what little we know. It seems to be anti-GMS weavers that locked FS up. First evidence is that there is only 1 GMS loyal weaver. That is Widow. So anti-GMS weavers would destroy her.
2nd of all. the specific crime. First Sinner is charged with "Apostate". Which is going against a religion basically. GMS never had a religion like that. The relationship between GMS and Weavers was never a religion but rather it was a relationship between a mother and her children(atleast intended). Anti-GMS Weavers on the other hand had one. The false religion that Weavers made that not only kept GMS sleep but kept them at the top.
3rd and final. If GMS loyalists(aka Widow and only her) locked First Sinner up. Anti-GMS weavers would’ve gotten her out. Since in the end they won. They sealed GMS. What is stopping them?
I have to say I disagree.
"She calles us divine, she lied." I think the use of the word "divine" shows that GMS had a kind of religion. Also it's kind of in the pale beings MO to establish a religion and have bugs worship them.
Personally I think FS petrified herself like the other remaining weavers, and it was the Haunted Citadel (so GMS) who imprisoned her statue.
(A bit of a weird theory I know)
The "Divine" in this case imo comes from the fact that who GMS is. GMS is a Pale Higher Being. On the same rank as PK and WL. Ofc she would call her daughters divine. Since well. She is LITERALLY a Pale Higher Being. If she wants to keep this daughter-Mother feeling going they have to believe that they are also divine beings just like their mother. If this was a religion GMS would’ve been the only "Divine" being and would’ve called Weavers something less nice. Like peasants. Wouldn’t have put them on the same level as their "God"
I mean.. maybe.. but there are cases like White Lady. And she don’t seem to care much about a potential "religion". Besides if there was a religion I honestly think atleast something would’ve survived to confirm it. There is like no records of another religion.
That seem unlikely. GMS is looking for silk and power. If GMS knew FS existed in the first place she would’ve consumed her silk long ago. Not let her stay in a prison as a corpse. Especially when that doesn’t benefit her at all. Besides FS’s cage is made with tons of protection that feels alot like Weaver work.
Went to the same high school. Got makeup done together. Eventually had to separate.
✨✨𝓓𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓻𝓬𝓮✨✨
“The Sisters of Sin”
Perhaps, Perhaps, this is why Widow is a widow.
My interpretation (or headcanon call it what you like) is that they were married. Widow calls herself that because she lost her wife when she was imprisoned indefinitely, and to prevent widow from ever trying to free the first sinner or retaliating in any way, GMS pinned up her silk and (more importantly) ripped off her mask. And with her mask went her previous memories and dreams and such.
Proof?: they share boss music. All the evidence I need. This is amazing, ty for this gift of a headcanon <3
Look man you gotta read the vibes. Widow has so much rage in her words, demeanor, and music. And she’s called widow. It only makes sense to me that something horrible happened to her partner. So when I saw first sinner pop out in that wedding looking dress it all came together. I’m not crazy I am not crazy
Not crazy, GENIUS! >:3
They both watched jojo
they GOTTA be, the evidence shows:
they’re both weavers☑️
they both have the same theme☑️
they both use similar attacks☑️
they both have a final stand phase☑️
on top of that, they both give a silk skill/ancestral art after beating their fights (Rune Rage from First Sinner and Needlolin from Widow)