One of the things I keep going back to is why on earth would Lumon decide to have an ORTBO with the innies? What's their real goal? It makes no sense for the reason they gave them. They mention multiple timess that they are only waiting for Mark S to finish Cold Harbor, so why the retreat? We know they lie to the innies (tallest waterfall on earth, gone for 5 months instead of 2 days) so why?
I've been thinking about it for awhile and the only things I can come up with are either:
A) They're testing how far the overtime contingency will work. Out in the middle of nowhere away from interference and other people. Maybe with the means to bring out Helly R full time (Jame saying he sees Keir in her)? Maybe just as a contingency in case there's another case like Petey's. I'd imagine it's a lot easier to catch a confused innie than an outie--or vice versa really. If one's running it's hard to coordinate that.
B) Helena meant to seduce Mark S. Between all of the babies in the opening and considering why they would want to have the innies overnight. I know there's a bit of discourse because many people don't want pregnancy to play a part, but there has been so much foreshadowing, it feels like someone is going to get pregnant and the only ones have sex are Mark and Helena/Helly.
What theories do you have?
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It was Milchick's idea, as part of his "Lumon is listening" overhaul. It's heavily implied that all the changes are his doing and his alone.
Yeah, Milchick is trying to prove he can run things and manipulate the innies better by using "kindness reforms." The innies wanted to go outside, so they get to go outside, but it’s in a unpleasant environment where they’re reminded of death and danger by the seal and lack of food. Then they get welcomed back into the safety and care of the Lumon campsite. Bonus points for showing them the lost Lumon handbook that has a moral parable about doing something sexual outside of Kier’s approval, I wonder who that’s intended for, surely not Mr. Goo Goo Eyes. When it all goes wrong Milchick gets blamed because it was his idea, and he’s put into a tough spot for his own morals where he has to confront that his superficial kindness isn’t actually making the innie happier but he’s still obligated to control them if he wants to be loyal to Lumon.
But these innies have already been outside. They know what the outside can look like. I don't think showing up in the wilderness would have the same "oh Lumon's right" that it might have with other innies.
Controlled Environment vs Uncontrolled Environment. Milchick gets to pretend he's listening to them and giving them what they want while still controlling the whole environ and the messaging being given to the innies.
Problem is because they've been in the actual real world, they're skeptical of the whole thing and it doesn't work. It's a bad idea from the start but Milchick is grasping at straws.
Oh that's an interesting idea, that Milchick's intention can be one thing but because the character is flawed he miscalculates what the innie's response will be.
I think it’s safe to say there is also some retributive malice at play, which is an element of Milchick’s character we have seen demonstrated throughout both seasons.
To quote Ben Stiller and Adam Scott in the Severance podcast:
Oh absolutely, you see that vindictiveness a lot late in the season with how he treats Miss Huang. He takes his frustrations with being insulted and devalued by Lumon and, because he can't direct them at his superiors without upsetting his faith in his cult/job, redirects it towards people he has some power over. You even see it in miniature at the camp fire, he's pissed off at Helena for ruining his story but the only people he can punish are the innies, who now never get to try marshmallows.
Stands to reason that once they went outside they wouldn’t decide “oh yeah I guess being a prisoner who will never see the Sun ever again is actually fine” on their own. Milchick is giving them another taste of freedom but is making it seem scary and unsafe so they don’t ask for more, so that they view it as a perk Lumon gives them rather than a right to fight to have for themselves. It doesn’t work, but that’s the point. It shows the flaw in the lie Milchick is telling himself: he can’t help his desire to “treat them like they’re people” to paraphrase Miss Huang, but he also can’t just be “kinder” and expect them to accept it while the fundamental power imbalance and exploitation isn’t addressed.
Reminds me of the gentle gaslighting I do to my indoor cats. When it's pouring rain, freezing cold or we have a lot of snow I'll open the door to show them. Neither have gone more than a step or two outside before turning around and coming back inside where it's safe
Aha yes exactly! I’ve done the same exact thing.
Oh that's interesting. If it's a perk, they don't need to fight for it, they need to work for it. I could see that being it, but I still feel like two things can be true at once and there are other reasons for it happening.
For sure, there could be other things behind the scenes we find out later on. But I do think that at the moment the ORTBO makes sense in how it's been presented. It's sort of the end of the first act of the season where the tensions between the innies and Milchick come to a head, everything blows up for basically everyone, and they all have to pick up the pieces afterwards.
They were “outside” for like 35 minutes and a few of them were indoors that while time. Not like an overnight camping trip at all
I mentioned them seeing the sun in another comment but you just reminded me, it wasn't even daytime. It was night. So even the ones who were outside briefly didn't get to feel the sun on their face for the first time.
Makes a lot of what he did much funnier tbh
Story needed Mark to bang Helena
Because of the implication.
but but, there was no boat 😔😔😔
The boat was metaphorical.
I understood that reference.
I didn't
At this point this is how I feel. The show could really use an episode or two that illuminates what is happening from the Lumin/Kier perspective to sort of ground it and make it make sense.
I feel like the writers have proven that they're more thoughtful than that. Even when things happen in what appear to be "convenience for the plot" it still mostly feels like they've woven an actual reason behind it.
I love the show but hold a very different opinion on this. I feel like the writers have continually complicated and mystified things without a clear vision.
I really think the show needs to start streamlining and providing answers, and in hindsight, I think the acting, characters, dialogue and sets are all so great that they really shouldn't have made it a mystery-box show at all, and that it would have carried even better as a regular sci fi drama.
the ortbo was all milchick's idea as part of his efforts to prove himself a better manager than cobel. that's why he's so annoyed by his PC still saying "hello ms cobel" in e1. he thinks his nice guy routine can produce better results than cobel's stricter modus operandi, but his kindness reforms all end up backfiring because everything changed after the innies experienced the OTC (which they only became aware of because of his own fuck up lol)
source: tramell tillman:
this being some master seduction plan of helena's has been mentioned a few times but doesn't really track imo.
after the argument with irving, helena is clearly ticked off and starts getting ready to go to bed alone, closing herself in her tent - even though this is the only night where anything could realistically happen between them.
in addition, even when mark then shows up attempting to continue the flirting, she's clearly in a "not now dude" mood, before he zips himself inside the tent with her and reassures her - mark is ultimately the one pushing for it and initiating.
She even brought up his (not) wife, if Helena is a sinister seductress she succeeds in spite of herself, not because. The whole scene reads to me as Helena getting caught up in the role because of the genuine affection Mark is showing her (that’s meant for Helly) is so rare in her real life, and afterwards confessing she doesn’t “like who she is on the outside” because she feels both loved enough to be vulnerable with him but also guilty because of what’s she’s done.
Even Tramell's explanation still implies that he was told to do it and he was just the one put to carrying it out. "He’s been given this impossible task, and he does his best to carry it out..." It implies upper management wanted it to happen and told him to make it happen.
his task is to get the innies to work on their files, but he seems to have quite some lee-way on how to get them to do so.
all of his kindness ideas are brought up and shat on by drummond during his review in e5 and he's basically told to just admit his method isn't working and go back to treating the innies as lesser:
Hard to say but it was calamitous AF.
They wanted to show how uninteresting the outer world is
The dead animals
The tallest waterfall
Creepy doppelgangers (maybe teasing their outies).
But these innies have seen the outer world. In the same way the audience knew Milchick was lying when he showed them "the tallest waterfall on the planet" they would know he's lying if he's trying to play it off like there's nothing else because they've seen better.
What have they actually seen? Dylan saw the inside of a closet and his kid. Irving saw his apartment, his dog and the streets of Keir. Helly saw a gala inside the same building where she works, and was surrounded by Lumon big wigs and sycophants. Mark saw his sister's house and his brother-in-law's friends (and the picture of Gemma.)
None of them saw anything outside their town or even the sun, since the OTC was at night. I think you are right that they are probably skeptical, but still don't have the same knowledge of the outer world that an audience member would.
Milkshake underestimates the power of the OTC experience on Mark and Irv. He still doesn't see the innies as people, or acknowledge their growth. He is using tactics that would have worked at the beginning of season 1.
Why do you ask a question then combat everyone who answers you? 😂
Sorry, I didn't see it as combat. I was just debating theories.
I could see why they would show death as a fear tactic.
"You really want to be free, out here, where you can die and rot?"
I'd be very surprised if Helly isn't pregnant in S3. I've a feeling it's some cultish shit like "Eagans only procreate with employees"
Imogene was his employee after all
"Bonded by the spirit of the industry"
“There is no purer love than that of an employer and his employee”
It's in Kier's manual
Going to be even more devastating for Gemma after her failed pregnancy 💔
Maybe Helana IS Gemma!!!!
(sorry, just spitballing random shit, I will not further explain it at all)
If she had this goal to get knocked up then I have to believe there is something special with Mark's blood.
I’d take it a step further and say eagans only procreate amongst themselves, and Helly knows that Mark is related to her
I hadn’t thought about it before, but this is the innies’ first experience with sleep. Mark S says at one point in season 1 that he focuses on being able to feel the effects of sleep because he doesn’t experience it.
Yeah, the only one that does is Irv. They said he frequently falls asleep at work causing them to dock his pay.
I was really disappointed none of them even mentioned being excited to sleep, or what it was like to sleep.
Or scared to fall asleep
And his asshole outie stays up all night drinking coffee and painting hallways.
To me it makes sense that the ORTBO would happen while the CEO’s kid is moonlighting as an employee. I totally agree that it was a tactic of Milchick to make the employees feel more valued, while also heavily implying that they need Lumon and would not survive on their own outside of the company. However it also makes sense that Helena would rather do a fun retreat than spend another day in the office. The way she was looking at the waterfall the morning she and Irving had their confrontation, she really seemed to enjoy being out in nature. It would not surprise me if she spent time in that park as a kid and it’s a special place for her. So I don’t think it was all Helena’s scheming to have baby goats with Mark. I think the opportunity presented itself and she leaned in. I do think it’s important to the plot in season 3, but not the entire purpose of the ORTBO.
The way it ended, I had to wonder if the purpose of it was to find the mole. Lumon (or basically just Milchick on his own) must have figured the innies couldn't have done the OTC on their own without help from someone on the inside with the right knowledge.
He could have suspected that someone else on the team had already been reintegrated? He could have suspected that Lumon placed a secret agent within the severance department and they turned double agent?
Something weird is going on with Irving. What the fuck was up with that dream? Why is he so up Helly/Helena's ass? Ok, maybe it is Helena, sure, but is she really acting all that out of character? Out of character enough that he is 100% sure she is bad and needs to be killed? A little excessive if you ask me!
I think the dream is just Irving having his realization that Helly is an imposter.
I took it as Irv has been around for a long ass time and something to do with 'people never leave'. I don't know, it was creepy as fuck though and I loved it lol
I think Helena worked backwards from the idea that she wanted to have sex with Mark for the first time during a romantic weekend getaway instead of in a Lumon supply closet on the severed floor.
So, she pitched the wilderness retreat primarily for this purpose and had Milchick figure out all the arrangements.
Regarding the non-sexy justifications for it: past experience may have shown that an offsite team exercise for the innies makes an MDR team more effective at refining. It’s implied that while the team members work on their files in isolation, there is also something about the chemistry of an MDR team that requires emotional alignment between the members. Maybe spending one weekend in tents speeds up their work by 10%.
We also know from Gwendolyn Y that the innies are fascinated with the idea of seeing the sky and being outside. The ORTBO is a valuable carrot, like Dylan’s access to the Outie Family Visitation Suite, that they can dangle in exchange for compliance. The ORTBO may also be meant to overwhelm the innies with fear of the impossibly large outside world, leading them to avoid any future escape attempts.
But while there must be some Lumon-aligned justification for the ORTBO, I think it was mostly just that Helena wanted to bang.
On the official podcast (Who Are You? from March 28) they're talking about how the innies are basically adolescents in season 2, and going to camp and having romance bloom is part of being an adolescent, as is learning that the relationships you have really matter to you. They don't discuss the ORTBO specifically for very long but listening to that conversation with Dan Erickson put it into context for me.
Maybe that’s why Irving says “what’s for dinner kids?” In the first season
And from the innie's perspective, this is all completely true. They're told they are there for the sake of being there. But plot wise, I think it will come out that there are other motives for the ORTBO.
Agree with you 100%. The main thing that jumps out at me is perfect setting for them to bang
Milchick's reforms were based on seeing the concerns the innies had and addressing them in such a way that they'd feel victorious and get back to work. The innies' biggest rebellion was the OTC, because they wanted to see the outside. The ORTBO was meant to show them the outside as being a cold, dangerous place where the only comfort comes from Lumon, and now that they've seen the world's tallest waterfall they've seen it all and will be content to go back to work.
Some of the exact details may have been advised by Helena, like the overnight nature of it and the tents. I have no real evidence of this, but it just seems like a very Helena thing to do.
But if they're only like a week out from Mark finishing Cold Harbor and being useless, why now? I think there are plenty of other ways they could've done something similar but not have been so far away. I think it had to be there for a reason, such as testing the overtime contingency at a distance/over a two day period.
It is not a theory, it is from the actor himself:
It was Milchick's idea designed to keep the workers in line. He saw they were distrustful of Lumon, curious about the outside world, and distracted by personal issues.
The ORTBO was meant to prevent further unruliness in a few ways: 1) It was presented as a reward to make them feel valued; 2) It satisfied some curiosity about the outside world; 3) It was full of new, strange experiences to take their minds off personal drama; and 4) It made the outside seem harsh and scary so they'd be more inclined to trust Lumon to keep them safe.
ETA: I don't think Lumon or Milchick had anything to do with Helena going after iMark. That's her own thing.
The ORTBO and everything that happened during it, from the spooky doppelgangers to the animal carcass to the story of the violent death of Kier's twin, was intended to scare the innies into never wanting to try and leave lumon again. Its all about trying to make them compliant again.
And yet the team seemed un-phased by it all - if it was meant to scare them. They just tromped around following clues and instructions. Irv even slept the night outside on a rock just in his overcoat. There's something else we're missing...
It has to be more than just “Helena wanted to bang”.
Procreation could be part of her survival.
Remember Jamie tells Helly R he does not love his daughter or see Kier in her— we know Helena is smart and my assumption is she realizes after what Helly did at the gala made it worse so perhaps by producing an heir she can make herself indispensable whereas who knows what Jamie would have eventually done to her…
I'm not thinking of it from the perspective that Helena wanted it, but more so Lumon wants it. Whether it's because Helena's not working out (as it points out multiple times in the series) and they want a spare or to secure the 'bloodline' or for another reason that's unknown. It would seem off for Helena to not only be orchestrating it but then telling everyone about it afterwards. Like, why does Milchick know if that wasn't part of the reason? Why would Helena tell them if it's not supposed to happen?
Good thinking post. Putting character motive and perspective aside for a moment - what did the showrunners want ORTBO to tell *us* about the Severance universe? Milchick informs the team - and us - the waterfall is the highest "on the planet". Is this simply an opportunity to parody corporate/cult hubris? Toying with the severeds like they are children? Or is there a chance it's actually true? In the Severance universe. In Kier PE whatever/wherever that is.
The issue of altitude came up later in Chikhai Bardo when the Scoobies were reminiscing about the alpine trip they all went on. Per Gemma they were high up in the "death zone", taking pictures was not alowed (?), thankfully they saw no dead bodies (Everest?), Ricken scampering around the boulders like a mountain goat (!), rapelled his first couloir in middle school (Norton's Couloir?).
The "Death Zone" is what climbers call the the oxygen-deprived heights of the 14 tallest peaks above 26,000'/8000m. Are we to believe that the four were knocking about the upper camps on Mt. Everest? Nobody "bounds around" at that altitude. Or is the "death zone" in the Severance universe, in Kier PE, something more on the order of Woe's Falls?
I think ORTBO may have been a message to us that the Severance universe is not simply an off kilter mirror of our own, in the parody/satire mould. But potentially much more different and stranger. I think it's even reasonable to question just how "real" Woe's Falls or the scoobies shared memories may be.
The show is a lot more straightforward in certain aspects than people seem to be willing to pay attention to.... is it not entirely obvious what the purpose is? There is no hidden agenda. The show tells you why they're doing it.
To get Helena laid.
Helena tasked Milchick to find out who the innies contacted during the rogue OTC and more importantly, what they said. They know about Irving, from Burt, but what Mark said is unknown. They know where Mark was, from Cobell, but not what he said and to whom.
Her "infiltration" was meant to find this out. Milchick had his reasons for the ORTBO, and Helena might have thought it could help in her investigation.
Control
I think even thinking about it in plot terms is missing the point a little bit. I think it had to happen in terms of the aesthetics of the show. The rest of the show is very "realistic" in a way. The hugely different visual aesthetic of this episode, the shift into such an intensely surreal and archetypal/mythic mode, the dream logic of how Irving figures out who Helly really is ... the show needed this surreal shake-up to bring the show to a different register. The plot makes total sense thematically and symbolically, even if it really doesn't make super-rational sense for Milchick to construct such an elaborate operation on short notice during an extremely high stakes period in the severed floor. It's operating in a heightened cinematic/literary register like an Ingmar Bergman movie.