I just finished season two and...it was very strange. When the show was focused and moving forward I loved it, but it seemed to derail quite often. So many tiny plotlines that didn't lead anywhere or end up mattering, and so many harsh breaks in the flow. In episode three it looks like integration is going to kick off, and I'm excited to see how that affects both innie and outie mark as the process develops, right? Nope, we get a weird mountain retreat fever dream and integration hasn't had any important effects 7 episodes later.
For me, the show is at it's best with the awkward, complicated, matters of identity and self. My favorite plotline of the season was Dylan and his outside family, hands down. That's a complicated, interesting, moving story. Unfortunately the show really struggled to focus, too much time spent going nowhere.
Some of the characterizations were also off to me. For example, the big cabin fight between the Marks wasn't set up nearly as well as it could've been. There was plenty of time to develop an innie Mark who starts the season ready to burn Lumen to the ground, but slowly finds he has something to live for in Helly. The closer he gets to progress, the more scared he becomes that he'll succeed. That's a good story! They just needed to focus on it. As it is it kinda feels like an out of nowhere character turn. He spent the first three episodes trying to save Gemma, without even being asked, now that he is being asked he's freaking out? You gotta spend a lot more time with Mark and less time with Cobel to develop a change that significant.
We've also lost a lot of the creepy corporate life atmosphere. The show still tries, but it doesn't have the same impact. In season one it was all each character knew, that was their world, which is partially why it was so disturbing. Now it feels like everyone knows the whole thing is farcical. It's all a show, something they play along with to avoid raising suspicion, so it doesn't have the same effect. The fact that Lumen is a crazy cult, not just a regular evil corporation, also distances us from the commentary
Overall I still enjoyed it. The dialogue, acting, and directing are all great. There were just some notable stumbles that put it behind season 1. I'm still really looking forward to season 3.
I just finished season 1 and 2 in the last couple weeks. Just watched the last two episodes tonight.
Season 1 was incredibly tight and mysterious.
The issue with that, is that tight and mysterious work incredibly well. It’s tight because you don’t need to explain everything and because not everything needs an explanation it adds to the mystery.
Season 2 falls into the same issues all successful shows like this do, they need to expand on and explain the mystery. And in doing so are unable to make it tight or mysterious and start instead becoming contrived.
I like the world, but in revealing more about it, you lose what made it so special.
I have a feeling, with a little more wrap up, season 1 would have been a standalone show for the ages. Season 2 is a great follow up, it has all the parts, but it could have been half the length, and maybe try less to be a caricature of the weirdness it seemed to think the audience expected.
It’s kind of like the movie Weapons or season 1 of stranger things. I just don’t know how you could live up to the expectations the first half (or season) sets up when the audience is on board with and understands why things are only touched on and we are left to fill in the blanks.
Watched it over the past few weeks with my girlfriend. We love it. I read some of these long posts on this thread from people complaining about season 2 and wonder if we even watched the same show.
Same. I actually liked the second season more (I rewatch episodes from it more often), because it was more focused on character development and social issues. Whereas the first season was more linear and focused on plot development.
Binged both seasons in the last 3 days lol. Surprised to come on here and see such a sour reception to S2. Did S1 set an incredibly high benchmark? Yes. But I felt S2 was very good and don't understand many of the arguments against it. Woe's Hollow was the only episode to me that I felt was a bit of a wayward fever dream and made no sense why it was included (well - to establish Helena was a mole - but did it have to be done in the middle of nowhere in the mountains, eh). Every other episode to me carried its own weight and brought its own intrigue - the final 4 episodes of the season (Chikhai Bardo, Sweet Vitriol, The After Hours, Cold Harbor) were absolutely incredible and had me enveloped from beginning to end.
I see a lot of people mentioning this topic of Mark's reintegration being a "plot hole". I can see on a surface level if your expectation is integration to be complete in 2 business days why that would be your stance, but the reintegration is a longer process that seems destined to be an obvious center point in S3. There's mentions numerous times (throughout both seasons) that reintegration is a long term process, despite Reghabi's attempts to accelerate. When Reghabi flooded his chip, the purpose it served in S2 for the viewers was to give Mark the seizure so that we finally got to peek into Mark and Gemma's relationship over the years and finally first-hand experience the weight of their connection and the trials they experienced together. So that when we finally get the payoff of Mark and Gemma reuniting, especially in the context of him finding her while she's working on the crib in Cold Harbor, it hits us like a train of emotions. So people using this angle to invalidate the incredible scenes of innie and outie Mark going back and forth on the camcorder makes no sense to me - the moment oMark calls her "Heleny" and you see the switch flip in iMark's head and hostility beginning to seep out is chilling.
I loved Dylan's arc of initially being furious about Gretchen "cheating" on him, clearly hitting him in his soft spot of insecurity and low self-esteem/confidence. Eventually, he comes around and uses how great innie Dylan is as inspiration to better himself and give Gretchen the husband she deserves and the spark again of the man she first met.
The way Chikhai Bardo is shot where Mark hears for the first time Gemma has died and the top half of his head fades into the shadows, as well as how in that scene Mark and Gemma are edited face to face is haunting. Her last words as Ms. Casey before Milchick sends her back down is "Where's-" and her first word as Gemma in the basement is "Mark" while she cries. This to me was the best episode of the season and genuinely award worthy directing from Jessica Lee Gagné (well, she already won an award for the cinematography in Hello, Ms. Cobel).
I saw a couple people saying Sweet Vitriol was a snoozefest (the episode Cobel goes back to her hometown). I can see why on surface level, but I appreciated it as an episode to build on for next season and giving us way more depth into her character than we've ever gotten. Her being the inventor of Lumon's tech and not Jame Eagan was an insane reveal and seeing how she'll (along with Milchick, who's on the brink of breaking) factor into S3 is exciting. Her personal animus with Helena plus her sister (the Lumon devoutee) trashing her mother like that could very well be the fuel that opens her eyes from the cult brainwashing and makes her the most powerful asset that "Team Mark" has.
The season finale had me on the edge of my seat the entire time, including the final scene. Seeing iMark looking back and forth between Gemma and Helly and keeping the viewers in that purgatory for a few minutes was a beautiful choice by the show. iMark found it within himself (with the emotional support of Helly) to do oMark a favor - and once he delivers Gemma outside he feels he's completed his end of the deal. If he just pranced out the door with her it wouldn't have given any respect to iMark's valid dread and fears in the whole birthing cabin back and forth. Also the touch of iMark and Helly running together and it being shot with the same film/grain quality that they specifically only used for oMark and Gemma's flashbacks earlier in the season was nice, showing how this is the start of their journey of love together just like oMark and Gemma's. There's a whole world left to explore inside Lumon in S3.
This show has so many small callbacks/easter eggs to previous small moments that made me feel the love/care/attention to detail the team has for this show. I can't help but feel like *a few* of the people who are complaining either didn't watch the season intently, skipped through certain episodes, or just for some reason didn't register the emotional weight of the last 3-4 episodes. This season, in its own way just like S1, was a masterclass in directing, character building and establishing depth and a curiosity for what's to come in the following season.
First time watcher, just finished both seasons. The final episode of S2 totally soured innie Mark for me. Something I've havent seen too many ppl mention is the fact that innie Mark never showed any remorse after finding out that he was complicit (albeit unknowingly) in the creation of other innies of Gemma, all of whom like Ms Casey only "lived" for a like 30min at a time and were being mistreated and tested on. He never shows any responsibility at the fact that he directly contributed to the creation of innies that were basically prisoners their entire existence, even more so then the MDR innies are prisoners.
Lastly, in the final moments of the episode, when he ushered Ms Casey out the stairwell exit, he effectively killed her according to his own logic. He knew that Gemma was never coming back to the severed floor since she was there against her will in the first place. He spent all of S2 looking to free Ms Casey and then just unceremoniously "killed" her with no remorse. Not to mention he also "killed" the 24 other innies Gemma had, that again he had helped create, without a second thought. So basically he was perfectly willing to sacrifice all of them, but not himself? Not even to atone for his role in their creation and subsequent demise?
That to me completely killed any respect I had for the character. Like he's basically a selfish asshole that cares more about fooling around with Helly and gave no fucks for Ms Casey or the other innies of Gemma.
Not sure how they're gonna address this in S3 but I am not a fan of innie Mark for now.
Nope. He actually saved Gemma and her innies. They would've been permanently, physically killed if Gemma hadn't escaped that day. He didn't care about "fooling around" with Helly. He was fighting for their lives, after saving Gemma's.
He had zero choice in or knowledge of what was going on on the testing floor. How is he complicit? He was a prisoner there the same as she was.
Not sure if you fully read what I said. I never said he didn't save Gemma. But by saving her he "killed" Casey and the innies. You can't save both Gemma and the innies since only one can exist in the outie world (unless she reintegrates). And assuming Gemma is not going back to the place that imprisoned her, those innies are never seeing the light of day and are thus "dead".
He didn't care about "fooling around" with Helly. He was fighting for their lives, after saving Gemma's.
I was being facetious when I said that. Obviously he loves her and want them both to survive, but my point was that he was being selfish about caring if Helly lives more so than others. You say he's fighting for their lives, but what life is it in the severed floor. You can't live a full life in an office space and he knows this. He's denying outie Mark a real life so he can live out a fantasy in this white-washed prison essentially, which I think is pretty selfish.
He had zero choice in or knowledge of what was going on on the testing floor. How is he complicit? He was a prisoner there the same as she was.
So I mentioned this in my original comment, I am aware that he was a prisoner too and that he did not know what he was doing. However, a normal person would still feel some remorse if they found out the "regular" job they were doing was actually hurting ppl, even if they had no direct knowledge of it. Regardless if he knew or not, it was still his work that directly lead to Gemma suffering, and he had like no reaction to finding this out. Not even a "oh shit dam, I did that" kinda reaction. Literally nothing.
Hmmm. The way I saw it was innie Mark chooses to stay not just for Helly but for all the innies on the severed floor. He stays to expose and destroy Lumen. Only innie Mark has seen the full context of what is taking place inside of Lumen. If he ‘sacrificed himself’ in that moment with Gemma at the end, everything would have been for nothing. If he left with Gemma (instead of staying behind with Helly) Lumen would win, they would still have control, experiments would continue, etc.
I just finished watching the show for the first time and I’m confused by the response to s2. It seems like people thought it wasn’t as good as s1, but when I looked back on the post-episode discussions people seemed to be loving it? Is it just in hindsight? I didn’t really notice a drop in quality but it has taken me months to finish the show (I loved it though!)
One issue is the show picked up a ton of new viewers starting with the second season. So many people binge-watched the whole series while messing around on their phones, and then would immediately flock here to complain about all the stuff they clearly missed or didn't understand.
Also, people can love the show without loving each part equally. People had sky-high expectations coming off of Season 1 (with that absolutely immaculate finale!,) and then were forced to wait 3 long years. The show set up a nearly impossible standard for itself. I'm madly in love with it, but even I don't think S2 is quite as good as S1. Some story elements feel disjointed and unpolished. I still adored the season, but I do have some criticisms.
We have a lot of time to kill waiting for S3, so we might as well overanalyze everything and get some venting in.
This right here, tv is being butchered to cater to people on their phones, shows are now being made expecting people not to pay attention so they say exactly what’s going on at all time, a good show like this lets the viewer piece it together themselves so if ur not paying attention a lot of things don’t make sense.
I just finished this show. It's now one of my favorites.
I remember reading some months ago some dude who watched it with his girlfriend and she didn't like it - she was on her phone for most of the watch. He asked her to watch it a second time, without her phone, and when she finished she realized how much she missed and how much better it was.
Because you're right, most new shows are written for people with fried attention spans, and are complete shit as a result. It's why you get so much awful random exposition dumping and characters that don't speak or communicate like humans, because they have to recap the plot every 30 minutes or so so that the audience is aware of what's going on.
This show doesn't do that. It reminds me a lot of The Leftovers or Dark, shows where looking away for even a moment means missing some subtle clue or information which won't be spoonfed back to you later, just a piece of the plot now permanently missing for you.
Tightly well written shows feel like even a minute or two cut out would be impossible, because everything that's on your screen is intentional and has a purpose. They show but don't tell, and let you see (it is, after all, a primarily visual media) the story as it unfolds, but leave it up to you to connect the lines, which is remarkably more satisfying than some dickhead on screen telling you what happened and how to feel about it. But as a consequence, people who are used to the spoon get very uncomfortable when it's not available to them.
Exactly and the people that weren’t paying attention when they watched tv usually had some easy show with an episodic format they didn’t need to religiously follow, it was a happy medium of kinda mf tv with prestige shows, but now every show is serialzed and second screen catered, with Netflix buying Warner and hbo max apart of that, Apple TV might become the next place for the true prestige shows to have a home.
I finally got around to watching this show (both seasons) this past week. I thought it was OK. There were one or two really great episodes each season but a lot of the time I had to restrain myself from fast forwarding. Actually, I did fast forward through the last half of Sweet Vitriol. It was mind numbingly boring and I was about to fall asleep so I skipped to the end. I don't think I missed much anyways. It's a good show and there's just enough there to keep my attention but I think it's extremely overrated. All I've heard from both friends and online was how amazing this show is and how they can't wait for the next episode/season and how it's been nominated for a bunch of awards. I don't think it's bad but I just don't think it's that good. As far as season 2 goes, the last half of the season was quite boring. The finale was good but the pacing felt off. Not sure why. Whenever the next season comes out, I'll definitely watch it but I might wait until all the episodes are released and then binge the entire season at once. If I watch a boring episode and then have to wait another week for the next episode, I'll probably skip it and never get around to watching it so it's better for me to just binge the entire thing at once. Up next: a rewatch of Stranger Things to get ready for S5 and then Ted Lasso which I've also heard good things about.
It sucked.
They spent all of Season 1 building this incredible world, setting up mysteries, tension, and symbolism — and then in Season 2 they just said “screw it” and did whatever they wanted.
The snow episode was the breaking point for me.
They suddenly appear in the middle of nowhere — a massive snowy mountain — and we’re just supposed to roll with it? The show literally implied that the innies don’t even know what the sky looks like, and now they’re standing outside surrounded by snow, acting totally fine with it?
And the outies — they were told to just go out there alone, to some random isolated spot, and wait… just to be severed for a camping trip?? That makes zero sense.
The “clones” — WTF was that?
The goat people?? Why would there even be goat-people on the Severance floor? They could literally buy a goat anywhere, no problem.
Was the whole MacroData Refinement idea just about Gemma?
Why are there other branches of Lumon with MDR teams?
Why was only Mark S. able to “finish” Gemma?
They’re supposedly close to some huge breakthrough, but nobody in MDR seems to be doing any actual work this season.
What was the point of Cold Harbor?
If there are tons of severed people, how did Gemma end up there?
And what are Lumon’s real plans with her?
What happened to the whole reintegration or retina message storyline? Why would they burn messages when they can literally go to the cabin and just talk to the innies?
What’s Miss Cobel’s obsession with Mark? She literally spent years pretending to be his neighbor just to spy on him.
And why did she run away from Helena when Helena wanted to go back to the Severance floor?
What was the point of the episode showing Miss Cobel’s home and implying she created the Severance program — if the show never does anything with that afterward?
And if Miss Cobel really was behind the Severance Project, then what about Asael Reghabi and that whole storyline?
What happened with O&D, and why was that card Dylan G. took so important that Mr. Milchick broke protocol to retrieve it?
And what about the houses on Petey Kilmer’s map?
Season 1 built a mystery. Season 2 built confusion.
Little late here, but your comment represents what I, at least for now, suspect will end up as one of the more frustrating parts about this show…throwing out mysteries and only solving/answering the ones that work into stories they decide to tell later. In addition to the clones in the camping thing, there was that random dead animal they made a big deal of for a moment then just moved on. We still don’t know anything about that emaciated woman that was in the book and Irving’s vision. Etc.
I’ll be really intrigued to look back on these sorts of things as the show keeps airing to see how many are just left in the past and how many are explained later.
Happy to see these posts from 4 hours ago only. I just finished the show after binging it and needed some kind of closure or discussion over how fcking out of left field this whole thing was. The ending had me fuming and frustrated. So many storyline gaps left. There was so much potential after season 1.
innies don’t even know what the sky looks like, and now they’re standing outside surrounded by snow, acting totally fine with it?
You're failing to consider all the recent revelations and experiences immediately preceding the ORTBO. Each innie was totally preoccupied with the fallout from the OTC event, and only able to stay marginally engaged with this present distraction.
Irving had just barely been pulled from the brink of suicide, for example. We can't exactly expect to see him merrily dashing through the snow and making snow angels.
You're free to dislike the season, of course, but some of the confusion you have would be cleared up simply through a second viewing. There are also some things that haven't been resolved yet. The show is still running and there's more story to tell.
I don't get the substantial S2 hate at all. Yes, the season was less cohesive. From Reghabi re-integrating Mark to the ORTBO like nothing happened. However, multiple episodes had the season finale quality apart from the season finale namely "Woe's Hollow", "Chikhai Bardo", even "Goodbye, Mrs Selvig" early on.
Also, regarding Mark S decision: He did what Mark Scout asked him to do - bring Gemma out. If he had walked out that door, he'd have effectively died, because no way Mark Scout would wanna return. Mark S is a prisoner created by Mark Scout and Lumon and many people condemn him for making an autonomous decision. "They give us half a life and think we won't fight for it." -- Helly R.
I don’t even think it was selfish. He got Gemma out, as promised. Now he gets to live at least a little longer happier. The body may be the same, but it’s two different souls, fighting for autonomy and their own happiness. You can’t expect your short lived life just to be a vassal for someone else.
Where exactly will they live those lives though? In a locked and monitored office? Start a family or something? Where were they running towards in the end anyway? There’s nowhere to escape and chances are he would be killed by Lumon.
Probably because of the high expectations I had after season 1. I loved season 1 so much and the finale was as one of the best. I was sorely disappointed by season 2’s pace and finale. While it had its twists , shocks and turns it was too slow and felt all over the place.
So i just finished watching the show and here are my thoughts.
why are all the cars vintage? Like from 70 and 80s
mark is so stupid. He spent what Couple weeks? Months maybe? If we calculate the total hours of the life of their innies thats even less. He chose HELLY OVER HIS WIFE!!???. Now i get that he doesnt know the wife but he knows that she's THE WIFE. not some girl he met at work. Even after knowing what he knew he still took that decision. Shes literally the leader in line which means she cant always be there and can fry their brains anytime she wants but stilll!!???
dylan is also very stupid. Knowing that his wife kissed him (the innie) he accused her of cheating... but hes still him, he got mad at his wife. Bro treat her right then so you dont have to be jealous of your other conscious.
Irving was 100% onto something. He painted that hallway door over and over like a routine. Had all the employees files with their addresses. He definitely knew something and was close to cracking up whatever he was working on. I hate that they left it there they shouldve atleast showed how he got all that info and why.
the innies never even seen the sky. The scene where Irving's innie wanted to go to burt's house, he starts driving and was surprised that he knew how to do that which meansss that their consciousness are more merged than they think.
the biggest question i have is when they interviewed for the job they didnt know what they were applying for? Like MDR was the department they worked in and who taught them the work? Like put the number clusters in the box based on feelings? I wanna know the process of them learning how to do that cux thats stupid as hell.
cobell's episode was unnecessarily long. They couldve showed us something important. It was like they were dragging it purposely to fill the episode hour. The entire episode was she went to her house to collect her journal. THATS ITTTT.
I have more things to say.. ill come back later. Reading all the theories in the meantime.
“Irving was 100% onto something”
Definitely would’ve wanted to see Irving have proper role in the unfolding of the last episode’s events.
Also could’ve loved some closure on how Irving knows what he knows, and who he’d been phoning (maybe Reghabi).
yeah cobell's episode was boring but it gave huge insight on the structure of managers in lumon/the severed floor. She says in the episode she was used for child labor, drugged and indoctrinated in this lumon cult, and many other insights i probably didnt get
Also you watch Helly be trained, they are trained by other severed employees. The first severed employee would have been trained by the floor manager.
It’s not stupid, it’s literally the first episode of the show
To points 2 and 3 you don’t seem to be grasping how the innies and outies are fully separate identities with no connection to one another.
Innie Mark is not stupid, he reasonably believes that if he leaves and gives Outie Mark the chance to run off with his wife then that’s it, that’s the end of his life forever. He doesn’t trust his Outie and reasonably so, in the video tapes he did diminish his experience with “imagine your love but 1000x more.” He didn’t feel reassured and when looking at his “wife” he realized that HE didn’t actually care about her, regardless of what his outie felt. He wanted to spend as much of his life with his love as he could, validating his identity.
That’s literally the conclusion he comes to in his response to the resignation request. His initial reaction was based on a feeling of both betrayal and violation. His wife kissed his innie, with whom he has no relationship, and that made him uncomfortable. But later he comes to understand why she did it and of course why his alternate self did it and chose to encourage him to continue existing
I get the innie mark situation but he exists only because the outie chose to come to work everyday. If he dont then he doesnt exist nor would he have any memories. So to run off with the office girl who he knows couple of days and also is going to be THE CEO OF THE LUMON is pretty stupid. Its outies mark division at the end of the day, he cant be at office forever. So lets just say he made a irrational move and clearly didnot think that through.
he exists only because the outie chose to come to work everyday. If he dont then he doesnt exist nor would he have any memories.
Well, yes, precisely. iMark's continued existence has depended on the actions of another person, a person who's expressed disregard towards his life and interests. It's perfectly logical iMark wouldn't just immediately give up the reins at this stage, knowing he'll likely never exist again. He wants to be with the woman he loves and fight for justice. You expected him to just rush out to go die?
So to run off with the office girl who he knows couple of days and also is going to be THE CEO OF THE LUMON
Well, damn. Sounds like she's about to have a hell of a lot of power. Smart to stick with her. Helly kicks ass! And it's not 2 days, but even if it was, that's more than the 0 days he's spent loving anyone else in his short existence. And, come on..."Office girl" is such a bad take.
Its outies mark division at the end of the day, he cant be at office forever.
I'll assume you meant "decision." It was oMark's decision, for 2 years straight, and now it's finally iMark's. I don't know why you think there are rules here. iMark doesn't owe oMark anything just because he was created as his slave. iMark went above and beyond by saving Gemma, but that's not his wife and that's not his life out there. The innies' time could come any minute, so those moments together are all the more precious to them.
On that note, notice how much iMark had accomplished and grown in those same 2 years that oMark was binge-drinking his life away. How much effort iMark put into learning about and appreciating Helly, in the same period that oMark tried his hardest to forget about Gemma.
Time is subjective. Whether we're talking about the length of a relationship or the length of a life, time does not dictate its value.
He and Helly did think it thru, they came to the conclusion that no matter what their existence was going to end. Innie Mark doesn’t think Outie Mark will ever come back regardless of what he does, and Harmony told him that Lumon would retire him after he finished Cold Harbor. Meaning no matter what, this is his last day in existence. So he chooses to run off with Helly, who also is having her last day in existence.
It was very much thought through and done so on screen
I think that the season was a downgrade from incredible to just good. It still works dramatically, it's just not as tight or well executed. Others have already pointed out the numerous plot holes and writing dead ends. I don't need to point these out so instead I will point out something that does take me out of the show: When characters start taking stupid pills.
We have two season finales in a row where the innies pull one over on Milchick at a very obvious time. So after all the events of season 1, you're telling me he was so unprepared that he let Mark escape and fell for an obvious diversion from Helly with basically no contingency? Was he taking stupid pills?
Maybe I'll add more if I think of it, but this one really bothered me.
Yeah, the stupid pills this season are something else. The ORTBO was insane--the innies literally had an angle to murder both Mr. Milchick and the little girl if they really wanted to, on top of the "drowning the daughter of the CEO" thing that actually happened, and the risk of injury just from having four people who've almost never been outside before just roaming in the wilderness. (Why did they make outie Irving walk all the way out into the middle of a frozen lake before they put him under?)
I started that episode thinking Lumon was starting to mess with the innies' perceptions in real-time, not just their perception of their memory, because obviously they weren't actually going to send them out to risk death by overexposure (or drowning in the middle of a frozen lake) in the middle of nowhere. Silly me! I guess that twist is still technically on the table, but the more they develop this reality, the less satisfying the reveal that it's being faked will be, so at this point I'm inclined to accept that the ORTBO was real and that the threat to Helena's life was genuine.
And yeah, man, that finale. I had another "oh shit" moment when Milchick called in the marching band. Thought for sure he'd learned from last time and that they were there to back him up... and then they just danced while Helly R. locked him in a bathroom and Mark S. ran off into the backrooms. Like, come on, man. (Also, you're telling me that they demonstrated the ability to manually override Severance on a severed floor... and didn't use it once to try and disrupt or outright disable the rebelling innies?)
And fuck I hated all of Cobelvig's appearances in this season. Season 1, she made a great villain, all mysterious and playing both sides of a cat-and-mouse dynamic, depending on whether she was interacting with her subordinates or her bosses. This season, she feels like a cardboard cutout of herself, both in the sense that there's really no reason for her to keep speaking almost exclusively in cryptic murmurs that don't actually answer the questions she's being asked, and in the sense that the other characters are still letting her get away with doing that, like she's still the boss / sweet old neighbour from Season 1. Like, forget Gemma and Cold Harbor: out of the two Marks and Devon, is NOBODY interested in what the fuck she was doing spying on them and getting involved in their lives in such a violating way?? Outie Mark asks, like, once, almost gets run over, and never bothers to press the matter again, even once they have the leverage of being the only way to stop Cold Harbor. They keep talking about how they're not sure how they can trust her: how about trying to FIX THAT?? They don't need to uncritically do whatever she says is best if they just go up a level and demand to know what she knows, or what the hell she was thinking during any one of her schemes... and if it's really so important to the showrunners that the audience doesn't know any of this stuff, they could've just cut away and had all that exposition off-screen. The way it is now, both Marks and Devon are collectively hanging for dear life onto a giant idiot ball with Cobel's face painted over it.
*huff* Okay, I think I'm done ulting. FWIW, I did really enjoy most of the beats that I wasn't complaining about here. Dylan G.'s plotline with his outie and Gretchen was awesome, I thought the weird edges and mutual attraction-yet-distrust between outie Irving and Burt was really interesting (that was a situation where it made perfect sense for neither side to come out and say "What are you up to?"), and Mark S.'s choice in the very end makes perfect sense, knowing what we know about him and the themes of this story (though, idiot ball moment, I think he probably could have said something like "I'm not the Mark you know" to Gemma, instead of staring at her for three minutes and then running away). I guess it's good that they still seem to understand how to write their main characters and the way they interface with the core conceit of the show, but yeah, it'd be even better if they could transfer that to those characters' conflict with LUMON and its agents.
Exactly - they continue to underestimate the intelligence and ability of innies so this tracked for me. Plus, if they had no idea that Mark contacted Cobel or got to communicate with his outie (and they didn’t), then they’d have no reason to believe Mark’s innie would know/want to attempt anything
I finished the rewatch of both seasons, and I loved both the seasons AGAIN.
Was pretty much shocked to see the reactions then, and still am. I thought except for some inconsistent pacing and missing humour from last season, S2 was absolutely top tier and on par with the previous one.
Just watched thru the whole show for the first time, reading the individual discussion threads between episodes. Really surprised to learn people think there’s some huge drop in quality.
I think not having the 3 year wait went a long way, aside from Sweet Vitriol I didn’t think the show dipped at all.
Right? Just watched it with my friend and the only episode where we had some negatives was the Cobel episode, still wasnt a bad episode.
Its 100% the wait thats getting to people
Most of S2 was kinda boring and largely devoid of my favorite characters and their dynamic, but at least the last episode was as great as I expected it to be
The thing that kinda pissed me off about the scene where the two Marks are arguing through the camera: why is no one coming up the glaringly obvious solution? The cabin is proof that the innies don't have to live at Lumen. The scientist that designed the technology is right there. They can make a place, far away from Lumen, where the innies can live, and the Marks just have to agree to share the body.
The real challenge will be in getting Helena Eagen there, maybe kidnapping her, but that can be the deal: "You get me Genna, I'll get you Helly."
But realistically who is going to make it, they don't have the tech and the cabin IS lumen. Living in one body is just not viable realistically and they both know that
Innie Mark didn’t trust outie Mark to actually follow through with anything for him. Innie Mark said once you get what you want you’ll completely forget about me
Here is what I don't like about Severance: Lumon being a cult.
When it started, I liked the allegories of soulless corporations that suck the life out of you and "reward" you with nothingburgers like new flavors in the vending machine. I liked the "all corporations are evil" thing, because they are.
But I guess you need a corporation to financially support and distribute your thing and you can't bite the hand that feeds you.
So you see not all corporations are soulless and evil, just Lumon, because it is a cult.
Not all corporate people are soulless monsters who would kidnap torture kill if the company demands, just those who were brainwashed. You might even say they are all victims. Even the Kiers. It is all the fault of the founder who fucked them up.
And these are of course false premises. Plenty of people do absolutely horrible things on their own volition, even without financial motivation.
I think out of all the criticisms this is what is wrong with the direction of the show.
The cult angle really undermines a profound critique of late capitalism soulless corporate work culture that season 1 so well establishes with its simple but profound premise. In season 2, It feels much more a criticism of cultism and religion by making Lumon a criminal cult organization.
While that’s not wrong per se, its premise begs for a more interesting critique and implications.
I fully agree. I was 100% on board with the soulless capitalist corporation stuff. Now it is just a "cults are bad" thing, which we have seen before. But could Apple, or any major studio, really do an anti-major-company show? It seems not :(
It feels like some symbolic thing to represent sacrifice for the company. But it just feels so needless and feels like an excuse to justify the weird goat department being teased earlier.
Maybe there’s some weird policy that everything used in the offices of Lumon has to be Lumon only products. There’s no Lumon branded goats so they breed their own.
Its like all the cars in the show are from the 70s/80s too. Seems like all over the place. Haven't finished S2 but in the process and I am afraid this is already lost itself a bit.
Ok so I just binged this all in the last three days (recovering from surgery) and I fell in love with the first season by the end and the s1 finale is one of the greatest episodes of tv I’ve ever watched. Season 2 kept me hooked even though I was constantly confused and upset. Just finished the s2 finale. I’m so mad. I’m SO mad. Oh my god I’m so mad. And sad and scared and worried. I “hate” this show.
…Can they drop season 3 now please? Like, expeditiously inject it into my skull PLEASE I need to see Gemma be ok
Like “Lost” where they clearly didn’t have an ending, at least the numbers had meaning and we found out what they were. I was angry Mark went back in but realize Gemma was safe when I was reminded here that she had help in Cobel and Mark’s sister Devon.
The acting and actors in the series are amazing. I was taken in by Prime’s Upload in the first season but it lost me in the second. I got wrapped up this series and finished it quick. I hope the third season of Severance has a premise that will be consistently entertaining and interesting.
I really don't understand the reasoning behind the plot. So Lumon is psychologically torturing Gemma in order to test the Severance procedure and apparently every time Mark completes a file it is a new Innie personality?
If that's the case, why did they kidnap a randomish woman, fake her death and than hire her husband in order to test it? Why didn't they get one of the faithful from the cult? Why aren't they using actual torture to elicit stronger emotional responses? Weren't there a million easier, safer ways to do test the procedure?
Also the ending... so now Gemma is awake inside the cult headquarters, what's the plan? Hope that no one from management, or security sees her and orders her forced back inside? They're a cult and they've been shown to do worse than that before.
This whole season just felt weak. Like they just randomly dropped a number of plot points, or forgot about them.
Wait…… if the innies personality is written and tailored, why is Helly R so rebelious? If Helly is just propaganda, why don’t make her joyful and a follower of Lumons rules?
Gemma isn't a "randomish" woman. Lumon seems to have targeted and groomed her, perhaps as early as the blood drive, but at least starting at the fertility clinic. We don't yet know why they chose her. We do know Jame and the other cultists are deranged, and their decisions aren't usually driven by logic.
I very much consider what they're doing to be torture, both psychological and physical. One innie is writing endless thank you notes until her hand cramps, as she's forced to play house with her creepy stalker. Another's entire existence is having dental procedures.
The plan is for Gemma to exit the stairwell where Devon and Cobel will be waiting. Lumon's security isn't great, especially now. They never expected an innie revolt to get this far, or for an innie to coordinate a rescue plan with their outie. They were completely caught off guard due to their laziness and arrogance.
This is helpful to me because I was thinking Mark was better off protecting everyone from the outside but I forgot Gemma had help from the outside to help protect her. I don’t recall what reformed Cobel that she can’t get back into the cult though.
Cobel isn't reformed. She has been betrayed and disowned. She's just motivated to get back at Lumon at this moment in time. She also has some kind of affection for Mark. But, she's far from a trustworthy ally.
I'm not saying they're giving her roses and candy, but what I mean is, if the goal is to really stress test severance, than where's the water boarding? Where's the psychotically spicy food? Where's the one who believes she's being held captive and about to be killed?
Lumon seems to have targeted and groomed her
Right, what I'm saying is that it doesn't make any sense to me. There aren't even hints that she's important, outside of the fact that they targeted her. If there was a single hint that they couldn't have used someone else, I'd understand it more.
Lumon's security isn't great, especially now
The only lapses we've seen have been on the innie floor and that seems to be solely related to activities by the innie's on the floor. They have cameras virtually everywhere, they have some kind of "code detecting" machine on the elevator, security guards, and a giant corporate campus and they're just going to let her walk out? The only way that works is if no one has been told to keep an eye out and no one reports her missing, or raises a flag about any of the events that just happened.
this has probably been a bunch mentioned before, but why did they just gloss over the impact of the OTC on the outside world? in the first episode or so, Milchick shows Mark a newpaper with all of them being paraded around as the face for change, and says something to him later on about marks “outie’s newfound fame” getting to him. Was the newspaper even real? Also, how much time passed between the OTC and Mark coming back into work?
Just to tack onto this Mark actually calls Milchick out on this at some point during the season. I forget the exact line, but he asks if something he says was printed in the same bullshit newspaper, or something to that effect
I just finished binging S1 and 2 for the first time. S2 was a clear downgrade, and it felt cheap in a lot of its plot. The biggest example of this for me was the whole reintegration plot line, which was one of the biggest nothingburgers I've ever seen.
For the reintegration plot it all kicks into "high gear" at the middle of the season. Mark asks for the procedure and I remember thinking and reading comments about how it seems crazy that they will reintegrate so soon in the season, and they just draaaaag it out. On one episode we see mild effects of it, on another they need to do another procedure, next episode is full cobel episode, etc. We get like 3 teases that hint that reintegration has happened, but it never does, and we actually finish the season with Mark not reintegrated at all...
This season was slow and boring at parts, I used the fast forward button many times, which I almost never do.
For me where it really dropped off was the “outside” episode. In particular, they just settled into sleep in tents without any character mentioning that they had no prior experience of sleep other than being punished for dozing.
Not exactly a plot hole, but just incredibly lazy writing.
Yeah, the the two eps were good but. The long one shots, awkward pauses, the plot just to pork, irving turning into a murderer ahole before consulting other two friends. The season 2 was way off. I dodged off way many times during this season.
This season didn't vibe with me. They ran out of good ideas. Too much bloat and lazy character building for most. I was completely disengaged from Irving and Burts relationship for instance.
The innie plot armor really got to me. There was no real stake or danger for the protagonists.
I really feel this show should have had this be its final season and restructured the episodes instead of prolonging the story. Can't wait to see what convenient excuse they have this time for innie mark surviving a whole other season.
Pretty sure it was Helena and not Helly during the whole last part. Being a dick to Milchik, talking to Daddy Egan, telling innie Mark "I'm her". Helena and Helly have different body language and it was giving Helena.
I think if they were going to pull this, the reveal would have had to happen in episode 10. A double-tap rug-pull is great because the audience assumes they won't pull the same trick right away. But revealing it in the next season? Doesn't feel as effective.
Gemma was really under-developed as a character and that made it hard to care about her. She's still basically just "Mark's wife".
I almost wonder if they waited too long for her episode. Given it's a bottle episode without touching the rest of the plot, feel like they could have had Chikhai Bardo early in the season to establish what's happening to Gemma, and start the ticking clock early.
Season 2 had some really high highs and really low lows. The season finale was the lowest point in the season for me.
So many episodes were massively bloated with filler and the entire marching band was a celebration of that bloat in the worst way possible.
Episode 7 and 8 are tied for best episodes of the season for me and I wish they had captured that feeling across the whole season but it feels like they were more interested in setting up season 3 than telling a compelling story in season 2.
I loved season 1 so much but found season 2 painful to watch.
Devon interpreting “SHE’S ALIVE” whilst Mark S was holding a photo portrait of he and his outties deceased wife as though he was referring to Devon’s missing baby was farfetched – he was so clearly referring to the photograph.
The end of season 1 was one of the most excruciating cliffhangers in TV history IMO, to not follow up with the most urgent matter at hand (Gemma being alive and the possibility that Lumon faked her death/kidnapped her) immediately rendered the audience (who was marvellously captured at this point) as dumbcunts, and I found it a mockery to think we’d believe the route they ended up going.
There were soo many leaky holes in the plot of season 2. Devon and Mark Scout blindly trusting Miss Cobel after all she did i.e PRETENDING TO BE SOMEONE ELSE was inconceivable. ACAB, but why were cops not hired to investigate Gemma’s potential kidnapping? It was briefly mentioned that Lumon had "their hands in many pies" within the real world but c'mon. Where the fuck did Irving go? And Ricken, the pseudo-intellectual empath, why the fuck was he not assisting his wife Devon in assisting Mark trying to find his potentially kidnapped in-law?
Personally, the tone, confined setting(s), limited world, as well as the cadence in season 1 coalescing is what made it so impactful. The absolute abandonment of those qualities in season 2 lost me—it was jarring, even. The primary objective of season 2 should have been, in my opinion, to find out if Gemma was alive and illuminate Lumon’s monstrosities right from the jump?! All these side quests seemed completely ill-guided… it’s kind of like they got a different director and writer for every episode? (I’m aware I’m being completely ignorant now).
Devon not immediately understanding the meaning of “she’s alive” is totally believable. It was inconceivable to them that Gemma was not in a car accident because that is what they believed for a very long time. It’s not that she rejected the idea (they explicitly debated the possibility), it’s that they did not know if Mark S was referring to the photograph or to the baby. That’s why they wanted to talk to Mark S to confirm what he meant, because the answer to that would have profound implications to the actions they’d have to take. It’s believable.
Why were the cops not “hired” to investigate it? Because there was no evidence of it. Do you think Lumon wouldn’t know how to fake a death and influence authorities to not look too closely at certain things? Nobody at any point had verifiable proof that she was alive that the cops would believe. This point of yours is just silly. The cops wouldn’t believe this crackpot theory of theirs.
Just binged both seasons for the first time and definitely agree with you - I was feeling sad for having missed the s1 ending cliffhanger in real time, but probably would’ve been more let down with s2 otherwise. I think s2 started out really strongly with episode 1 and sort of episode 2 - super unsettling for us as viewers to realize the innies big escape was covered up/explained away by corporate, etc - but agree the Gemma storyline should’ve been more of the focus right after that. Also didn’t like all of the exterior-ness - ep 7 was really great but having sweet vitriol right after that didn’t do it for me, despite it ending with some valuable info about cobel.
But, anyway, excited for s3 regardless lol. Gotta chase the high of experiencing s1 for the first time
I found myself thinking this is an utter insult to the audience intelligence come 202. Seths review was probably the funniest part of the season- reflected almost exactly how ridiculous corp environments are....Your summation far from ignorant, perfect even of my thoughts the entire time. I rewatched s1 to give it the attention and the the know it deserved - and I have to say I agree with each and every one of your points! -spared me having to write it all --- s1 hard 10/10 s2 is lucky if it got passed a 4.
Ricken, an empath? He's a self-obsessed man-child whose wife had to comfort him when she was in labor. He cares about his sleazy book deal.
Why would Devon trust the cops in the town of Kier? The show went out of its way to show us how embedded Lumon was in every public institution--the police, the hospitals, the morgue, the churches... Devon is smart. She knew the cops were complicit.
The structuring of Season 2 is a bit rough, but the show has always been a thematically dense slow burn. You're missing out on a hell of a lot if you're just watching for big flashy payoffs and spoonfed answers, and tuning out everything else. The writers are telling the story they want to tell, and you've done yourself a disservice going in with such rigid expectations. The story is so much bigger than just a single superficial plot point about what happened to Gemma. Just read a summary of the season if that's all you care about.
Why would Devon trust the woman who faked her identity, posed as her doula and her brother's neighbour? You're not wrong, but she could have sought help in literally any other way and it would've been more believable.
Lol I live for the thematically dense slow burn, but I think it could have been written more cohesively in season 2 and maybe even concluded there. But no, they butchered it up into pieces and gonna stretch this out for another 3-4-5 seasons?
Maybe I'm not enough of a TV person. I was captivated, now I'm not.
P e r s o n a l l y, I think shit became gaudy and over the top.
I have a theory. Lumon is trying to cure death. Can’t really offer in depth elaboration but I think that’s what they were doing with Gemma. I think Gemma really died in car crash, and they are trying to “cure” her. That’s why they offered the goats life, to transfer its life/ soul in to her’s. At one point one doctor says to Gemma than when all is done she will see the world again and the world will see her.
I thought they were trying to make people into mindless slave labour. Like when they asked her to disassemble the crib and she just followed with no emotional attachment
I agree that's what I feel like too. A way to pass soul/consciousness from body to body so that the Eagans can live forever. Take your consciousness and stick it in a new body with none of the trauma of death.
This isn't supported by the events of the show. We've seen Gemma at various points during her confinement, and she's always appeared perfectly healthy. Allentown (the x-mas note room) was iMark's very first file, completed shortly after the "crash," and yet she was fine in the Allentown room.
The Lumon scientists/execs have alluded to testing severance barriers, and a battle against pain, not death. Drummond stated outright that the goat would be "entombed" with her, and its spirit was to guide hers in the afterlife. A healthy Gemma was about to be murdered. Cold Harbor had nothing to do with curing anyone; it was about perfecting a new chip, and Dr. Mauer was likely referring to her chip being mass produced and distributed.
We're given an explanation for the ashes in oMark's basement, when Reghabi explains Lumon has connections to the local morgue. They aren't hers because Lumon faked her death.
The ending PMO so much, I swear I was rage screaming episodes leading up to the finale. The sister was such a C you next Tuesday and Mark S. was such a POS 😡
I’m extremely confident it was Helena in the final moment after the dad felt “duped”
Helly disappeared when Dylan was holding the vending machine by himself and she was nowhere to be seen when band finally was convinced to stand up too.
2 months late here but I like this theory. I think it was Helly to start and then when they realized Mark and Gemma were escaping, they turned Helly back into Helena to make sure Mark didn’t leave as well. I feel like Helly would’ve tried to make him leave, considering she was in on the plan and knows her outie is an Eagan which means Helly has basically no chance of continuing life forever as an innie.
Mark’s innie might have delusions about being able to keep living his innie life but surely Helly would know that she has no hope of convincing her outie to let her live. I think the fact that ‘Helly’ doesn’t say anything at all to Mark in the final scene is an indicator that it’s Helena. Didn’t want to say anything at all and risk tipping off Mark that it’s not Helly
He set off a coup, killed someone, and destroyed their most valuable project. MDR was about to be dissolved anyway. There's no job for iMark to go back to. And oMark has no reason to ever return to Lumon if he gets out. He has Gemma again.
This is all assuming reintegration doesn't go anywhere. We don't know how that process will affect them over the next while.
Weren't the replacements basically temp workers? They grabbed some desperate people that were already severed. At least Mark W seemed to be considering you seen security walking him out and him complaining about getting fired after only 3 days of work.
Literally finished S2 10 mins ago. You're right in all this. Just to add, I think they might be setting up something. Outie Helly's father tells that he saw Kier in the innie one, maybe he's looking to replace the outie Helly with the innie?
Where does outie Helly fit into this? She has sex with innie Mark, and feels something (envious?) when looking at innie Haley kissing. In the S2 finale, Haley also suggests that outie and innie Haley is the same person? Outie Haley also seems to meet (outie) Marks and talks about introducing to her father.
Is that Haley E who told that the outie and innie were the same person? Is Haley E going to rebel against her dad and also oppose her replacement by innie Haley?
Yes, her father prefers Helly (innie) over her outie, so she might be able to negotiate with him on some things. I agree he may want her as his successor.
Helena (outie) does feel jealous towards her innie and has some attraction to Mark. Hopefully, we'll learn more about her perspective next season.
Helena (outie) was not present in the finale. When Helly (innie) told innie Mark "I'm her," she was resigning herself to her fate. She recognizes she and her outie are inextricably linked, and therefore her relationship with Mark is doomed.
Exactly! Just found a time for watching S2. There is no way that it was outie Helena. It was for sure innie Helly for many reasons. She might have just vanished to go and find Mark. Also there is no way she could have activated that Golden or whatever protocol in the middle of all that chaos.
Just finished this... Why didn't they come up with the plan b of kidnapping Helly and doing the procedure on her? They coulda agreed to like knock her out chemically or whatever and to smuggle her out. Reintegrate.
I’ve just read through a bunch of these opinions and I’m relieved I’m not alone in my frustration with Severance S2.
I saw one opinion that it probably should have ended without knowing Marks choice between Helly and Gemma which I agree with. Even more though, him walking out with Gemma to me would make more sense for furthering the story. Like he’s partially re-integrated and being out there discovering his memories there could have been conflicting emotions as he remembers being with Helly and loving her.
Plus I actually do want to see how they would take Lumon down. I doubt that Gemma escaping and telling her story would really be enough if she can’t remember the things that happened as her ‘innie’. There is definitely untold story there but so much of Season 2 felt dragged out and unexplained. Especially the Cobel part, it was intriguing sure but I’m still confused about her motivations now, does she want to take them down to save people, to get credit? Why didn’t she explain things better to Mark as to like why him? Why Mark and Gemma? What purpose do the other 3 serve or is it purely to facilitate Mark staying? Are there other people like Gemma?
I found the final room in Cold Harbour where she dismantled the crib so interesting and revealing more about motivation. Is it just about separating consciousness or are they maybe trying to find ways to eradicate or control impacts of trauma?
I just think a lot of time was wasted and could have been used better. So many things happen where I find myself asking why?
I hope Season 3 is better thought out and makes those gaps in season 2 make more sense because I feel like there is so much that they abandoned this season after all the build up. I’m disappointed as well because the beginning of the season was quite painfully boring. There’s so much I want to see within the world that we don’t get to and so much they showed that we really didn’t need.
I feel Cobel's motivations are pretty obvious. She just wants to see the whole place burn. They took everything from her including her ideas and blueprints of severance and she gave them all she had just for them to ultimately discard her like she was useless. She went back to get proof they stole her ideas/blueprints; then she was presented with another opportunity to further bring down Lumon with witnesses and testimonials of kidnapping and what they were doing via Mark, Devon, and Gemma.
As far as Cold Harbor that was a test to prove they finally successfully removed the principles in which they believe a human shouldnt hold via technology rather than through practice and punishment which wasnt exactlyhighly effective anyway. (Its essentially a cult gone corporate.)
All that said, I too am extremely frustrated at the ending. It literally makes 0 logical sense to run back into Lumon when there's no possibility of long term survival on the severance floor that we or they have been presented with by that point. If they were willing to kidnap and enslave Gemma what makes them think they wouldn't do the same with them? Lumon clearly has their hands in ALOT of pockets. Even if they start a revelation with all the innies its not exactly like they can do much of anything with it. Reintegration is the only real possibility and thats not feasible on severance floor. Idk, love makes you do dumb things but this was just ridiculous.
Innie mark going back inside is a very human and understandable reaction to anyone with sympathy (in my opinion). Innie Mark feels no sense of loyalty to outie Mark, and the only person he really loves is Helly. Not many people would be willing to die for someone they don’t know. Even if death is imminent, most people would choose to spend as much time as possible being alive and with the people they love. It’s also possible that innie Mark believed there was more of Lumon to be fucked with and that his job of causing mayhem was not done, although that’s more speculation.
I like how they start to elaborate more on what the “vision“ is from Kier … It’s revealed more toward the end is S2 that this is all about eliminating one from experiencing pain. Like Hedonism. Like when Cobel visits her sister or whatever and the comment is made about the room the mother died in “nothing but pain awaits you in there“ etc … this is after Cobel decides to turn her efforts against lumon … it’s almost as if she gave herself a moment to allow herself to feel pain and grieve when she laid in the bed and put that breathing tube thing in her mouth … when Gemma goes into each of the rooms she experiences some level/variation of pain. When she is asked afterwards “after which room did you feel pain?“ it seems they were taking notes on what to work on to eliminate that. Buncha sickos … anyways it’s important to grasp the deeper philosophical meanings behind shows. If you could turn off anything painful in your life, would you? What would be the cost? Is there value to feeling pain? In some cases, people compartmentalize or develop other personas to survive pain. I think that this is very well done and super cool to see what Ben Stiller is working on these days.
For me that was the absolute key moment of the show.. this one line "Kiers eternal war against pain" suddenly the motivation of that company and their insane and unethical pratices make sense. The Dr. treating Gemma is certainly sick, I wish it would have been him who got to experience the nail gun. I don't really want to know to what treatment Gemma was subjected to in the rooms that we did not see, it might have been even more disturbing stuff. Her having to endlessly write christmas cards almost feels comical in comparison to what I think this company is capable of. I hope she will not be reintigrated.
What a deep show, and the emotional impact it leaves on you.
I haven't cried this much on a show since... ever I think? The ending was so beautiful and sad
Why in the world would an “innie” feel anything that is related to an outie life experience? Isn’t that the damn point of an innie?? The whole damn time we knew innies would not share any part of their outies life. What a stupid finale and exhausting season.
It seems heavily implied that the severance technology isn't completely perfect and like 90% of what Lumon is doing is testing more and more extreme circumstances to see if the barrier holds. Also in season 1 multiple characters (for example petey) claim that you can feel certain effects of your outie/innie's life on you
They are trying to perfect the technology by testing extreme circumstances, like two outie lovers meeting and working together without having any feelings toward each other. They are testing if the barrier holds, and also how many different innies one person can have without falling apart.
I understand the multiple “innie” plot point, but dissembling a crib as the culmination is silly, in my opinion. All season cold harbor was built up as something critical, but it turned out to be disassembling a crib after her and mark literally sat in the same room on several different occasions. After all, it was Mark that Gemma was still asking for after two years. We were never exposed to the idea innies could falter and sense an outie experience. It was already discussed as full proof for the audience.
Dissembling a crib seemed to be tied to one of her core traumatic memories (Mark Scout and the crib), as a final test that her brain was totally and completely wiped of any problematic tethers to their husband and initial reasons for seeing medical attention. It would've meant the chip's tests were a total success and she was ready to be unloaded of it and the multi-personality swapping chip put into somebody else (probably Helena, given her dad's thoughts and supervision).
But they had dozens of instances where Mark literally sat across from his dead wife during his wellness visits. Talk about being completely untethered.
Chiming in a bit late, but the fact that Mark made a tree out of clay a day after going to visit said tree, where his wife "died", made it pretty clear there were still some things leaking through.
I am just speculating, as I only just now finished S2 and am looking for clever interpretations. Honestly, I fear right now to have fallen for Lost 2.0. I stumbled over your comment and thought, well, there is one thing in this riddle packed inside of an enigma and stored in a mystery box that I think I understood.
For some people having a child is more important and emotional than being in love. For them it means escaping death in some way. Maybe Lumon came to the conclusion that for Gemma this was the case. In Episode 9 they went at great lengths to characterize Gemma as a woman who nearly breaks because of her inability to have a child.
I was afraid the child supervisor would turn out to be Gemmas and Marks child, I'm glad she is a bit too old for that. That would have been even more seriously f*cked up.
I like your response and it makes sense, but Mark’s pain of losing his wife led to a breakdown and it wasn’t clearly evident that he could not function without her. To me, Mark S. sitting across from Ms. Kasey (Gemma), his dead wife, is a much bigger milestone for the chip than an innie taking apart a crib.
I rewatched Season 2 recently. I... have some thoughts. This show really struggles to explain 'why'. I get it's a psychoanalytic-mystery series subgenre, but the mystery can't be a mystery for its own sake: there has to be an enlightenment, and then a resolution. If Season 1 was the 'mystery', Season 2 should have been the 'enlightenment' and Season 3 the 'resolution'. Instea, this season we had five too many shots of Cobel coldly staring at nothing and slowly saying 'Cold Harbor' to dramatic music that does absolutely nothing to advance the plot or even the conversations with Mark or whoever - it's borderline cringeworthy. I mean, Cobel knew what Cold Harbor was in Season 1, and she invented the chip and likely oversaw the severance programme's implementation, so she must know what Lumon's grand design is or why it is even needed? Even a simple 'Lumon wants to severe the population of the US without them knowing so they can control their work lives and make people do whatever they want' (even if that's a half truth and the real truth is different, i.e. Lumon wants to control the US labor market and 'resurrect' Kier). Or even an explanation for 'why' Gemma and Mark? There are a million other couples Lumon could have preyed on, so why them? I feel like Season 2 was written as a setup for a setup, or a midseason connecting Season 1 and (eventually) Season 3, whereas it should have been just a setup for the third and final part (S3): everything like the impact of Petey on the story and Mark's reintegration felt like it got put on hold in episodes 9 and 10 of S2, I think this made it a rather weak finale that relied more on the audience's reactionary emotional sympathy with innie Mark's 'decision' than actual clever writing. The whole season feels like its missing a third act: it felt stretched-out, it felt like the middle part ended with Gemma's escape and innie Mark's decision; it also felt like we were abrubtly cut off from Helena's (seasonal) arc presumably culminating in her making a choice or statement of either becoming more zealous or rebelling, which would then set-up her character's direction for Season 3; Irving being sent away on the train is the most obvious "you'll get answers next season" pivot i've ever seen and felt contrived, it's like the writers didn't want to 'lock' either Irving or Burt's characters into a particular backstory because that would upset some fans?; Dylan's (seasonal) arc was somewhat more complete and handled better, but to the extent that his actions in the finale were natural (or what he would do regardless) or indicative of his 'decision' to stay or not isn't clear; Milchick's arc was probably the best overall, the writing actually showed his progression in a way that made him a more sympathetic antagonist this time around - instead of just being the 'muscle' or 'mechanical' (comedic) villain archetype he was in Season 1 - by the end of his finale, especially with his rebellious quips at Drummond and then the Keir robot in the finale. I didn't want everything to be answered or answerable if the plan was always to make Severance a three-part (three seasons) show, but I feel like a lot fell-by-the-wayside by not explaining 'why' enough, that this will impact next season because instead of focusing solely on a resolution, the show will spend the first half of the season explaining 'why' everything to date has happened, then the resolution will feel rushed and all of the characters won't have enough time to naturally resolve their internal conflicts while also fighting together towards the story's resolution.
Edit: there is a great example of where in TV a series that is narratively based on a big overarching mystery and doesn't progress beyond that mystery, that fails to englighten the audience and then give a well written resolution, can implode: The Blacklist.
So much this. I was so intrigued by this show in S1, and I've hung on for S2, but I'm irritated. There's something to be said for taking time to enjoy some things - enjoy the moment. There's a like 2-3 minute scene in Ghost in the Shell where it's just her walking around the city, and that's such an amazing thing.
Contrast to Severence where we have to charaters meeting up, both having driven there. They arrive. They both stare at each other for like 30 seconds - forever in TV time. Then one gets out and stares at the other for 30 seconds. Then the second gets out and stares at the first for 30 seconds, THEN they fucking get the dialogue going.
I found myself irritated and fast forwarding during some of the hallway running scenes and other scenes where they were just fucking wasting time for no good reason.
There's atmosphere, and then there's masturbation.
I'll watch S3 because I've invested this time. I hope it fuckin' pays off. But I have doubts. So much wasted time staring unrealistically bfore saying anything so often. Use it like spinkles - occasional. Don't bury the damn cake in that shit to hide that the cake is jsut a cupcake.
In TV and movies there is a term "shoe leather" that sometimes describes this. Like TV from the 70's for example would stretch scenes that lacked content by showing you the guy getting out of his car and walking over to the other guy across the parking lot before getting into the dialogue.
there is a great example of where in TV a series that is narratively based on a big overarching mystery and doesn't progress beyond that mystery, that fails to englighten the audience and then give a well written resolution, can implode: The Blacklist.
One thing that I noticed the characters almost never talking about is the pay at their jobs, aside Mark getting that one time raise. I wonder if they’re being paid so well that on top of their other reasons, it doesn’t matter to them for them to be Severed. They don't look like they're living lavish lives, but enough to get by for sure. It makes you wonder what they do in their free time but also, do they get weekends off? It would be interesting to see them in outtie form for a longer time. What does PTO look like for the characters?
I still don't know why the first episode in season one had Mark accidentally run into Hellie in the parking lot, what became of that?
I also want to acknowledge, mainly because I have not seen many mention it on Reddit, acting props to Jaime and Drummond. They were both terrifying characters in their own respective ways. I wish Drummond was kept around, he would've made a solid antagonist given his commanding voice and build. Jaime's soft and creepy voice was also very unsettling to hear, especially when he tells Hellie "I don't love my daughter".
I also liked how the office gradually got darker and darker as the season progressed. We started the show with brightly lit offices but by the end, the same space having less light made it so much creepier and haunting to witness.
In first episodes of S1 Mark told Helly that after going in elevator at friday you return on monday. And about running into Helly in the parking lot - i think it's just a way of showing two different perspectives. First episode - pov Mark, second episode - pov Helena (Milchick gave her those flowers as a present for first day at work). Also works like a demonstration of 'staggering the exits'
Did you read the Lexington Letter? There's more of a reference to salary there. Iirc, the pay is amazing for an entry-level job with lower educational requirements.
The show doesn't make money a focus, and we can't really tell anything based on living situations. Irv and Mark aren't interested in much, so they live simply. Dylan has a modest middle class home, but he has a big family and he's bad with money. It seems the pay is just high enough to convince desperate people to go through brain surgery.
I think it's good they don't make pay a focus. But from what I recall of the Lexington Letter she was a school bus driver initially and found the pay with Severance was amazing, so maybe that gives a sense of scale.
Binge watched the show from start to finish for the first time over the weekend. Season 1 was incredible and season 2 was overall decent with some great parts sprinkled in between.
Some spoilers, just in case.
Fuck the innies. I'm completely team Outies
The entire Burt and Irving story lines and characters could have been eliminated and not a lot would change. Nobody wants to know that two sixty year old men want to smash, fucking gross. Thankfully I skipped most of their scenes in season 1
Helly R is honestly not too different from Helena in being cruel. Minutes earlier she convinced Mark s to do the right thing and then when Mark is debating, she indirectly chooses for him by standing there teary eyed. Her look to Gemma was so fucking insufferable like bitch you barely lived for hours whereas Gemma has been tortured for years and you steal her husband from her fuck you Helly Eagan, maybe Kier is within you afterall
The pacing was bad in the later parts of season 2. Characters making dumb decisions, too many slow mo inconsequential shots, and worst of all people not talking to each other and asking questions...
I think I won't be back for season 3. My conclusion is that Gemma went out and Mark talked to Helly R. and said there is no possibility of them as innies existing forever so rather the outies live properly. Thus Mark S becomes the hero and our Outies get their happy ending
Edit : forgot to add my biggest gripe. The whole Reghabi and reintegration is absolutely useless
Nobody wants to know that two sixty year old men want to smash, fucking gross.
They didn't show them fucking, but they did show romance. I thought it was quite sweet. You being so keen on it being gross makes me wonder about you rather than them, but this isn't intended as an attack on ya. I just think that's a bit weird of a reaction. But maybe if you're young enough, anyone over 35 is ancient and gross or something. :shrug:
I just finished season two and...it was very strange. When the show was focused and moving forward I loved it, but it seemed to derail quite often. So many tiny plotlines that didn't lead anywhere or end up mattering, and so many harsh breaks in the flow. In episode three it looks like integration is going to kick off, and I'm excited to see how that affects both innie and outie mark as the process develops, right? Nope, we get a weird mountain retreat fever dream and integration hasn't had any important effects 7 episodes later.
For me, the show is at it's best with the awkward, complicated, matters of identity and self. My favorite plotline of the season was Dylan and his outside family, hands down. That's a complicated, interesting, moving story. Unfortunately the show really struggled to focus, too much time spent going nowhere.
Some of the characterizations were also off to me. For example, the big cabin fight between the Marks wasn't set up nearly as well as it could've been. There was plenty of time to develop an innie Mark who starts the season ready to burn Lumen to the ground, but slowly finds he has something to live for in Helly. The closer he gets to progress, the more scared he becomes that he'll succeed. That's a good story! They just needed to focus on it. As it is it kinda feels like an out of nowhere character turn. He spent the first three episodes trying to save Gemma, without even being asked, now that he is being asked he's freaking out? You gotta spend a lot more time with Mark and less time with Cobel to develop a change that significant.
We've also lost a lot of the creepy corporate life atmosphere. The show still tries, but it doesn't have the same impact. In season one it was all each character knew, that was their world, which is partially why it was so disturbing. Now it feels like everyone knows the whole thing is farcical. It's all a show, something they play along with to avoid raising suspicion, so it doesn't have the same effect. The fact that Lumen is a crazy cult, not just a regular evil corporation, also distances us from the commentary
Overall I still enjoyed it. The dialogue, acting, and directing are all great. There were just some notable stumbles that put it behind season 1. I'm still really looking forward to season 3.
Yes hard agree, the transitions were very jarring and iMark suddenlt not caring about gemma after caring for her right out the bat in ep1 seems wrong.
I actually agree with you - I like the show but it does seem to take you down one route only to jerk you back and take you somewhere else.
Also thought the Mark v Mark storyline wasn’t set up right.
I worked with Helly R in episode 3
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Great catching up with Mark S
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Will the Goats return in season 3 ? We’re gonna have to wait
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I just finished season 1 and 2 in the last couple weeks. Just watched the last two episodes tonight.
Season 1 was incredibly tight and mysterious. The issue with that, is that tight and mysterious work incredibly well. It’s tight because you don’t need to explain everything and because not everything needs an explanation it adds to the mystery.
Season 2 falls into the same issues all successful shows like this do, they need to expand on and explain the mystery. And in doing so are unable to make it tight or mysterious and start instead becoming contrived.
I like the world, but in revealing more about it, you lose what made it so special.
I have a feeling, with a little more wrap up, season 1 would have been a standalone show for the ages. Season 2 is a great follow up, it has all the parts, but it could have been half the length, and maybe try less to be a caricature of the weirdness it seemed to think the audience expected.
It’s kind of like the movie Weapons or season 1 of stranger things. I just don’t know how you could live up to the expectations the first half (or season) sets up when the audience is on board with and understands why things are only touched on and we are left to fill in the blanks.
Watched it over the past few weeks with my girlfriend. We love it. I read some of these long posts on this thread from people complaining about season 2 and wonder if we even watched the same show.
Same. I actually liked the second season more (I rewatch episodes from it more often), because it was more focused on character development and social issues. Whereas the first season was more linear and focused on plot development.
Binged both seasons in the last 3 days lol. Surprised to come on here and see such a sour reception to S2. Did S1 set an incredibly high benchmark? Yes. But I felt S2 was very good and don't understand many of the arguments against it. Woe's Hollow was the only episode to me that I felt was a bit of a wayward fever dream and made no sense why it was included (well - to establish Helena was a mole - but did it have to be done in the middle of nowhere in the mountains, eh). Every other episode to me carried its own weight and brought its own intrigue - the final 4 episodes of the season (Chikhai Bardo, Sweet Vitriol, The After Hours, Cold Harbor) were absolutely incredible and had me enveloped from beginning to end.
I see a lot of people mentioning this topic of Mark's reintegration being a "plot hole". I can see on a surface level if your expectation is integration to be complete in 2 business days why that would be your stance, but the reintegration is a longer process that seems destined to be an obvious center point in S3. There's mentions numerous times (throughout both seasons) that reintegration is a long term process, despite Reghabi's attempts to accelerate. When Reghabi flooded his chip, the purpose it served in S2 for the viewers was to give Mark the seizure so that we finally got to peek into Mark and Gemma's relationship over the years and finally first-hand experience the weight of their connection and the trials they experienced together. So that when we finally get the payoff of Mark and Gemma reuniting, especially in the context of him finding her while she's working on the crib in Cold Harbor, it hits us like a train of emotions. So people using this angle to invalidate the incredible scenes of innie and outie Mark going back and forth on the camcorder makes no sense to me - the moment oMark calls her "Heleny" and you see the switch flip in iMark's head and hostility beginning to seep out is chilling.
I loved Dylan's arc of initially being furious about Gretchen "cheating" on him, clearly hitting him in his soft spot of insecurity and low self-esteem/confidence. Eventually, he comes around and uses how great innie Dylan is as inspiration to better himself and give Gretchen the husband she deserves and the spark again of the man she first met.
The way Chikhai Bardo is shot where Mark hears for the first time Gemma has died and the top half of his head fades into the shadows, as well as how in that scene Mark and Gemma are edited face to face is haunting. Her last words as Ms. Casey before Milchick sends her back down is "Where's-" and her first word as Gemma in the basement is "Mark" while she cries. This to me was the best episode of the season and genuinely award worthy directing from Jessica Lee Gagné (well, she already won an award for the cinematography in Hello, Ms. Cobel).
I saw a couple people saying Sweet Vitriol was a snoozefest (the episode Cobel goes back to her hometown). I can see why on surface level, but I appreciated it as an episode to build on for next season and giving us way more depth into her character than we've ever gotten. Her being the inventor of Lumon's tech and not Jame Eagan was an insane reveal and seeing how she'll (along with Milchick, who's on the brink of breaking) factor into S3 is exciting. Her personal animus with Helena plus her sister (the Lumon devoutee) trashing her mother like that could very well be the fuel that opens her eyes from the cult brainwashing and makes her the most powerful asset that "Team Mark" has.
The season finale had me on the edge of my seat the entire time, including the final scene. Seeing iMark looking back and forth between Gemma and Helly and keeping the viewers in that purgatory for a few minutes was a beautiful choice by the show. iMark found it within himself (with the emotional support of Helly) to do oMark a favor - and once he delivers Gemma outside he feels he's completed his end of the deal. If he just pranced out the door with her it wouldn't have given any respect to iMark's valid dread and fears in the whole birthing cabin back and forth. Also the touch of iMark and Helly running together and it being shot with the same film/grain quality that they specifically only used for oMark and Gemma's flashbacks earlier in the season was nice, showing how this is the start of their journey of love together just like oMark and Gemma's. There's a whole world left to explore inside Lumon in S3.
This show has so many small callbacks/easter eggs to previous small moments that made me feel the love/care/attention to detail the team has for this show. I can't help but feel like *a few* of the people who are complaining either didn't watch the season intently, skipped through certain episodes, or just for some reason didn't register the emotional weight of the last 3-4 episodes. This season, in its own way just like S1, was a masterclass in directing, character building and establishing depth and a curiosity for what's to come in the following season.
First time watcher, just finished both seasons. The final episode of S2 totally soured innie Mark for me. Something I've havent seen too many ppl mention is the fact that innie Mark never showed any remorse after finding out that he was complicit (albeit unknowingly) in the creation of other innies of Gemma, all of whom like Ms Casey only "lived" for a like 30min at a time and were being mistreated and tested on. He never shows any responsibility at the fact that he directly contributed to the creation of innies that were basically prisoners their entire existence, even more so then the MDR innies are prisoners.
Lastly, in the final moments of the episode, when he ushered Ms Casey out the stairwell exit, he effectively killed her according to his own logic. He knew that Gemma was never coming back to the severed floor since she was there against her will in the first place. He spent all of S2 looking to free Ms Casey and then just unceremoniously "killed" her with no remorse. Not to mention he also "killed" the 24 other innies Gemma had, that again he had helped create, without a second thought. So basically he was perfectly willing to sacrifice all of them, but not himself? Not even to atone for his role in their creation and subsequent demise?
That to me completely killed any respect I had for the character. Like he's basically a selfish asshole that cares more about fooling around with Helly and gave no fucks for Ms Casey or the other innies of Gemma.
Not sure how they're gonna address this in S3 but I am not a fan of innie Mark for now.
Little more complicated than that and she was gonna be killed anyway
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Pillow's on vacation so I shot him a text. Hopefully he doesn't leave me on read this time :(
Nope. He actually saved Gemma and her innies. They would've been permanently, physically killed if Gemma hadn't escaped that day. He didn't care about "fooling around" with Helly. He was fighting for their lives, after saving Gemma's.
He had zero choice in or knowledge of what was going on on the testing floor. How is he complicit? He was a prisoner there the same as she was.
Not sure if you fully read what I said. I never said he didn't save Gemma. But by saving her he "killed" Casey and the innies. You can't save both Gemma and the innies since only one can exist in the outie world (unless she reintegrates). And assuming Gemma is not going back to the place that imprisoned her, those innies are never seeing the light of day and are thus "dead".
I was being facetious when I said that. Obviously he loves her and want them both to survive, but my point was that he was being selfish about caring if Helly lives more so than others. You say he's fighting for their lives, but what life is it in the severed floor. You can't live a full life in an office space and he knows this. He's denying outie Mark a real life so he can live out a fantasy in this white-washed prison essentially, which I think is pretty selfish.
So I mentioned this in my original comment, I am aware that he was a prisoner too and that he did not know what he was doing. However, a normal person would still feel some remorse if they found out the "regular" job they were doing was actually hurting ppl, even if they had no direct knowledge of it. Regardless if he knew or not, it was still his work that directly lead to Gemma suffering, and he had like no reaction to finding this out. Not even a "oh shit dam, I did that" kinda reaction. Literally nothing.
Hmmm. The way I saw it was innie Mark chooses to stay not just for Helly but for all the innies on the severed floor. He stays to expose and destroy Lumen. Only innie Mark has seen the full context of what is taking place inside of Lumen. If he ‘sacrificed himself’ in that moment with Gemma at the end, everything would have been for nothing. If he left with Gemma (instead of staying behind with Helly) Lumen would win, they would still have control, experiments would continue, etc.
I just really don’t like mark and helly together.
I think the characters have chemistry but there just wasn’t enough build up to their relationship. It felt really sudden to me
I just finished watching the show for the first time and I’m confused by the response to s2. It seems like people thought it wasn’t as good as s1, but when I looked back on the post-episode discussions people seemed to be loving it? Is it just in hindsight? I didn’t really notice a drop in quality but it has taken me months to finish the show (I loved it though!)
One issue is the show picked up a ton of new viewers starting with the second season. So many people binge-watched the whole series while messing around on their phones, and then would immediately flock here to complain about all the stuff they clearly missed or didn't understand.
Also, people can love the show without loving each part equally. People had sky-high expectations coming off of Season 1 (with that absolutely immaculate finale!,) and then were forced to wait 3 long years. The show set up a nearly impossible standard for itself. I'm madly in love with it, but even I don't think S2 is quite as good as S1. Some story elements feel disjointed and unpolished. I still adored the season, but I do have some criticisms.
We have a lot of time to kill waiting for S3, so we might as well overanalyze everything and get some venting in.
This right here, tv is being butchered to cater to people on their phones, shows are now being made expecting people not to pay attention so they say exactly what’s going on at all time, a good show like this lets the viewer piece it together themselves so if ur not paying attention a lot of things don’t make sense.
I just finished this show. It's now one of my favorites.
I remember reading some months ago some dude who watched it with his girlfriend and she didn't like it - she was on her phone for most of the watch. He asked her to watch it a second time, without her phone, and when she finished she realized how much she missed and how much better it was.
Because you're right, most new shows are written for people with fried attention spans, and are complete shit as a result. It's why you get so much awful random exposition dumping and characters that don't speak or communicate like humans, because they have to recap the plot every 30 minutes or so so that the audience is aware of what's going on.
This show doesn't do that. It reminds me a lot of The Leftovers or Dark, shows where looking away for even a moment means missing some subtle clue or information which won't be spoonfed back to you later, just a piece of the plot now permanently missing for you.
Tightly well written shows feel like even a minute or two cut out would be impossible, because everything that's on your screen is intentional and has a purpose. They show but don't tell, and let you see (it is, after all, a primarily visual media) the story as it unfolds, but leave it up to you to connect the lines, which is remarkably more satisfying than some dickhead on screen telling you what happened and how to feel about it. But as a consequence, people who are used to the spoon get very uncomfortable when it's not available to them.
Exactly and the people that weren’t paying attention when they watched tv usually had some easy show with an episodic format they didn’t need to religiously follow, it was a happy medium of kinda mf tv with prestige shows, but now every show is serialzed and second screen catered, with Netflix buying Warner and hbo max apart of that, Apple TV might become the next place for the true prestige shows to have a home.
I finally got around to watching this show (both seasons) this past week. I thought it was OK. There were one or two really great episodes each season but a lot of the time I had to restrain myself from fast forwarding. Actually, I did fast forward through the last half of Sweet Vitriol. It was mind numbingly boring and I was about to fall asleep so I skipped to the end. I don't think I missed much anyways. It's a good show and there's just enough there to keep my attention but I think it's extremely overrated. All I've heard from both friends and online was how amazing this show is and how they can't wait for the next episode/season and how it's been nominated for a bunch of awards. I don't think it's bad but I just don't think it's that good. As far as season 2 goes, the last half of the season was quite boring. The finale was good but the pacing felt off. Not sure why. Whenever the next season comes out, I'll definitely watch it but I might wait until all the episodes are released and then binge the entire season at once. If I watch a boring episode and then have to wait another week for the next episode, I'll probably skip it and never get around to watching it so it's better for me to just binge the entire thing at once. Up next: a rewatch of Stranger Things to get ready for S5 and then Ted Lasso which I've also heard good things about.
It sucked.
They spent all of Season 1 building this incredible world, setting up mysteries, tension, and symbolism — and then in Season 2 they just said “screw it” and did whatever they wanted.
The snow episode was the breaking point for me.
They suddenly appear in the middle of nowhere — a massive snowy mountain — and we’re just supposed to roll with it? The show literally implied that the innies don’t even know what the sky looks like, and now they’re standing outside surrounded by snow, acting totally fine with it?
And the outies — they were told to just go out there alone, to some random isolated spot, and wait… just to be severed for a camping trip?? That makes zero sense.
The “clones” — WTF was that?
The goat people?? Why would there even be goat-people on the Severance floor? They could literally buy a goat anywhere, no problem.
Was the whole MacroData Refinement idea just about Gemma?
Why are there other branches of Lumon with MDR teams?
Why was only Mark S. able to “finish” Gemma?
They’re supposedly close to some huge breakthrough, but nobody in MDR seems to be doing any actual work this season.
What was the point of Cold Harbor?
If there are tons of severed people, how did Gemma end up there?
And what are Lumon’s real plans with her?
What happened to the whole reintegration or retina message storyline? Why would they burn messages when they can literally go to the cabin and just talk to the innies?
What’s Miss Cobel’s obsession with Mark? She literally spent years pretending to be his neighbor just to spy on him.
And why did she run away from Helena when Helena wanted to go back to the Severance floor?
What was the point of the episode showing Miss Cobel’s home and implying she created the Severance program — if the show never does anything with that afterward?
And if Miss Cobel really was behind the Severance Project, then what about Asael Reghabi and that whole storyline?
What happened with O&D, and why was that card Dylan G. took so important that Mr. Milchick broke protocol to retrieve it?
And what about the houses on Petey Kilmer’s map?
Season 1 built a mystery. Season 2 built confusion.
Little late here, but your comment represents what I, at least for now, suspect will end up as one of the more frustrating parts about this show…throwing out mysteries and only solving/answering the ones that work into stories they decide to tell later. In addition to the clones in the camping thing, there was that random dead animal they made a big deal of for a moment then just moved on. We still don’t know anything about that emaciated woman that was in the book and Irving’s vision. Etc.
I’ll be really intrigued to look back on these sorts of things as the show keeps airing to see how many are just left in the past and how many are explained later.
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Happy to see these posts from 4 hours ago only. I just finished the show after binging it and needed some kind of closure or discussion over how fcking out of left field this whole thing was. The ending had me fuming and frustrated. So many storyline gaps left. There was so much potential after season 1.
Yeah season 2’s ending has me pretty meh. It’d be sweet if things actually got tied together but I’m not holding my breath.
You're failing to consider all the recent revelations and experiences immediately preceding the ORTBO. Each innie was totally preoccupied with the fallout from the OTC event, and only able to stay marginally engaged with this present distraction.
Irving had just barely been pulled from the brink of suicide, for example. We can't exactly expect to see him merrily dashing through the snow and making snow angels.
You're free to dislike the season, of course, but some of the confusion you have would be cleared up simply through a second viewing. There are also some things that haven't been resolved yet. The show is still running and there's more story to tell.
I don't get the substantial S2 hate at all. Yes, the season was less cohesive. From Reghabi re-integrating Mark to the ORTBO like nothing happened. However, multiple episodes had the season finale quality apart from the season finale namely "Woe's Hollow", "Chikhai Bardo", even "Goodbye, Mrs Selvig" early on.
Also, regarding Mark S decision: He did what Mark Scout asked him to do - bring Gemma out. If he had walked out that door, he'd have effectively died, because no way Mark Scout would wanna return. Mark S is a prisoner created by Mark Scout and Lumon and many people condemn him for making an autonomous decision. "They give us half a life and think we won't fight for it." -- Helly R.
I don’t even think it was selfish. He got Gemma out, as promised. Now he gets to live at least a little longer happier. The body may be the same, but it’s two different souls, fighting for autonomy and their own happiness. You can’t expect your short lived life just to be a vassal for someone else.
Where exactly will they live those lives though? In a locked and monitored office? Start a family or something? Where were they running towards in the end anyway? There’s nowhere to escape and chances are he would be killed by Lumon.
Probably because of the high expectations I had after season 1. I loved season 1 so much and the finale was as one of the best. I was sorely disappointed by season 2’s pace and finale. While it had its twists , shocks and turns it was too slow and felt all over the place.
Interesting. S1 didn't work for me until "Defiant Jazz".
yeah neither. i liked S2 way more like i was able to get into it way easier than i did in the previous season.
So i just finished watching the show and here are my thoughts.
why are all the cars vintage? Like from 70 and 80s
mark is so stupid. He spent what Couple weeks? Months maybe? If we calculate the total hours of the life of their innies thats even less. He chose HELLY OVER HIS WIFE!!???. Now i get that he doesnt know the wife but he knows that she's THE WIFE. not some girl he met at work. Even after knowing what he knew he still took that decision. Shes literally the leader in line which means she cant always be there and can fry their brains anytime she wants but stilll!!???
dylan is also very stupid. Knowing that his wife kissed him (the innie) he accused her of cheating... but hes still him, he got mad at his wife. Bro treat her right then so you dont have to be jealous of your other conscious.
Irving was 100% onto something. He painted that hallway door over and over like a routine. Had all the employees files with their addresses. He definitely knew something and was close to cracking up whatever he was working on. I hate that they left it there they shouldve atleast showed how he got all that info and why.
the innies never even seen the sky. The scene where Irving's innie wanted to go to burt's house, he starts driving and was surprised that he knew how to do that which meansss that their consciousness are more merged than they think.
the biggest question i have is when they interviewed for the job they didnt know what they were applying for? Like MDR was the department they worked in and who taught them the work? Like put the number clusters in the box based on feelings? I wanna know the process of them learning how to do that cux thats stupid as hell.
cobell's episode was unnecessarily long. They couldve showed us something important. It was like they were dragging it purposely to fill the episode hour. The entire episode was she went to her house to collect her journal. THATS ITTTT.
I have more things to say.. ill come back later. Reading all the theories in the meantime.
“Irving was 100% onto something” Definitely would’ve wanted to see Irving have proper role in the unfolding of the last episode’s events. Also could’ve loved some closure on how Irving knows what he knows, and who he’d been phoning (maybe Reghabi).
yeah cobell's episode was boring but it gave huge insight on the structure of managers in lumon/the severed floor. She says in the episode she was used for child labor, drugged and indoctrinated in this lumon cult, and many other insights i probably didnt get
Also you watch Helly be trained, they are trained by other severed employees. The first severed employee would have been trained by the floor manager. It’s not stupid, it’s literally the first episode of the show
To points 2 and 3 you don’t seem to be grasping how the innies and outies are fully separate identities with no connection to one another.
Innie Mark is not stupid, he reasonably believes that if he leaves and gives Outie Mark the chance to run off with his wife then that’s it, that’s the end of his life forever. He doesn’t trust his Outie and reasonably so, in the video tapes he did diminish his experience with “imagine your love but 1000x more.” He didn’t feel reassured and when looking at his “wife” he realized that HE didn’t actually care about her, regardless of what his outie felt. He wanted to spend as much of his life with his love as he could, validating his identity.
That’s literally the conclusion he comes to in his response to the resignation request. His initial reaction was based on a feeling of both betrayal and violation. His wife kissed his innie, with whom he has no relationship, and that made him uncomfortable. But later he comes to understand why she did it and of course why his alternate self did it and chose to encourage him to continue existing
I get the innie mark situation but he exists only because the outie chose to come to work everyday. If he dont then he doesnt exist nor would he have any memories. So to run off with the office girl who he knows couple of days and also is going to be THE CEO OF THE LUMON is pretty stupid. Its outies mark division at the end of the day, he cant be at office forever. So lets just say he made a irrational move and clearly didnot think that through.
Well, yes, precisely. iMark's continued existence has depended on the actions of another person, a person who's expressed disregard towards his life and interests. It's perfectly logical iMark wouldn't just immediately give up the reins at this stage, knowing he'll likely never exist again. He wants to be with the woman he loves and fight for justice. You expected him to just rush out to go die?
Well, damn. Sounds like she's about to have a hell of a lot of power. Smart to stick with her. Helly kicks ass! And it's not 2 days, but even if it was, that's more than the 0 days he's spent loving anyone else in his short existence. And, come on..."Office girl" is such a bad take.
I'll assume you meant "decision." It was oMark's decision, for 2 years straight, and now it's finally iMark's. I don't know why you think there are rules here. iMark doesn't owe oMark anything just because he was created as his slave. iMark went above and beyond by saving Gemma, but that's not his wife and that's not his life out there. The innies' time could come any minute, so those moments together are all the more precious to them.
On that note, notice how much iMark had accomplished and grown in those same 2 years that oMark was binge-drinking his life away. How much effort iMark put into learning about and appreciating Helly, in the same period that oMark tried his hardest to forget about Gemma.
Time is subjective. Whether we're talking about the length of a relationship or the length of a life, time does not dictate its value.
He and Helly did think it thru, they came to the conclusion that no matter what their existence was going to end. Innie Mark doesn’t think Outie Mark will ever come back regardless of what he does, and Harmony told him that Lumon would retire him after he finished Cold Harbor. Meaning no matter what, this is his last day in existence. So he chooses to run off with Helly, who also is having her last day in existence.
It was very much thought through and done so on screen
I think that the season was a downgrade from incredible to just good. It still works dramatically, it's just not as tight or well executed. Others have already pointed out the numerous plot holes and writing dead ends. I don't need to point these out so instead I will point out something that does take me out of the show: When characters start taking stupid pills.
We have two season finales in a row where the innies pull one over on Milchick at a very obvious time. So after all the events of season 1, you're telling me he was so unprepared that he let Mark escape and fell for an obvious diversion from Helly with basically no contingency? Was he taking stupid pills?
Maybe I'll add more if I think of it, but this one really bothered me.
Yeah, the stupid pills this season are something else. The ORTBO was insane--the innies literally had an angle to murder both Mr. Milchick and the little girl if they really wanted to, on top of the "drowning the daughter of the CEO" thing that actually happened, and the risk of injury just from having four people who've almost never been outside before just roaming in the wilderness. (Why did they make outie Irving walk all the way out into the middle of a frozen lake before they put him under?)
I started that episode thinking Lumon was starting to mess with the innies' perceptions in real-time, not just their perception of their memory, because obviously they weren't actually going to send them out to risk death by overexposure (or drowning in the middle of a frozen lake) in the middle of nowhere. Silly me! I guess that twist is still technically on the table, but the more they develop this reality, the less satisfying the reveal that it's being faked will be, so at this point I'm inclined to accept that the ORTBO was real and that the threat to Helena's life was genuine.
And yeah, man, that finale. I had another "oh shit" moment when Milchick called in the marching band. Thought for sure he'd learned from last time and that they were there to back him up... and then they just danced while Helly R. locked him in a bathroom and Mark S. ran off into the backrooms. Like, come on, man. (Also, you're telling me that they demonstrated the ability to manually override Severance on a severed floor... and didn't use it once to try and disrupt or outright disable the rebelling innies?)
And fuck I hated all of Cobelvig's appearances in this season. Season 1, she made a great villain, all mysterious and playing both sides of a cat-and-mouse dynamic, depending on whether she was interacting with her subordinates or her bosses. This season, she feels like a cardboard cutout of herself, both in the sense that there's really no reason for her to keep speaking almost exclusively in cryptic murmurs that don't actually answer the questions she's being asked, and in the sense that the other characters are still letting her get away with doing that, like she's still the boss / sweet old neighbour from Season 1. Like, forget Gemma and Cold Harbor: out of the two Marks and Devon, is NOBODY interested in what the fuck she was doing spying on them and getting involved in their lives in such a violating way?? Outie Mark asks, like, once, almost gets run over, and never bothers to press the matter again, even once they have the leverage of being the only way to stop Cold Harbor. They keep talking about how they're not sure how they can trust her: how about trying to FIX THAT?? They don't need to uncritically do whatever she says is best if they just go up a level and demand to know what she knows, or what the hell she was thinking during any one of her schemes... and if it's really so important to the showrunners that the audience doesn't know any of this stuff, they could've just cut away and had all that exposition off-screen. The way it is now, both Marks and Devon are collectively hanging for dear life onto a giant idiot ball with Cobel's face painted over it.
*huff* Okay, I think I'm done ulting. FWIW, I did really enjoy most of the beats that I wasn't complaining about here. Dylan G.'s plotline with his outie and Gretchen was awesome, I thought the weird edges and mutual attraction-yet-distrust between outie Irving and Burt was really interesting (that was a situation where it made perfect sense for neither side to come out and say "What are you up to?"), and Mark S.'s choice in the very end makes perfect sense, knowing what we know about him and the themes of this story (though, idiot ball moment, I think he probably could have said something like "I'm not the Mark you know" to Gemma, instead of staring at her for three minutes and then running away). I guess it's good that they still seem to understand how to write their main characters and the way they interface with the core conceit of the show, but yeah, it'd be even better if they could transfer that to those characters' conflict with LUMON and its agents.
for me it was when Mark’s sister didn’t trust the black woman helping Mark but trusted and called Mrs Cobel who abandoned her baby?
Lmaoo, that shit annoyed me to no end
What defines Milchick and Lumon at large is incredible hubris. I wasn't surprised at all.
Exactly - they continue to underestimate the intelligence and ability of innies so this tracked for me. Plus, if they had no idea that Mark contacted Cobel or got to communicate with his outie (and they didn’t), then they’d have no reason to believe Mark’s innie would know/want to attempt anything
I finished the rewatch of both seasons, and I loved both the seasons AGAIN.
Was pretty much shocked to see the reactions then, and still am. I thought except for some inconsistent pacing and missing humour from last season, S2 was absolutely top tier and on par with the previous one.
Apple: ”We need a 10 hour season 2”
Producers: ”We have material for two hours”
Apple: ”great, let’s start filming on monday”
Just watched thru the whole show for the first time, reading the individual discussion threads between episodes. Really surprised to learn people think there’s some huge drop in quality.
I think not having the 3 year wait went a long way, aside from Sweet Vitriol I didn’t think the show dipped at all.
Right? Just watched it with my friend and the only episode where we had some negatives was the Cobel episode, still wasnt a bad episode. Its 100% the wait thats getting to people
And that’s the exact episode I named lol
We are aligned
Glad to see I wasn't the only one not feeling s2. The pacing was all over the place.
Most of S2 was kinda boring and largely devoid of my favorite characters and their dynamic, but at least the last episode was as great as I expected it to be
The thing that kinda pissed me off about the scene where the two Marks are arguing through the camera: why is no one coming up the glaringly obvious solution? The cabin is proof that the innies don't have to live at Lumen. The scientist that designed the technology is right there. They can make a place, far away from Lumen, where the innies can live, and the Marks just have to agree to share the body.
The real challenge will be in getting Helena Eagen there, maybe kidnapping her, but that can be the deal: "You get me Genna, I'll get you Helly."
Ahh love it
But realistically who is going to make it, they don't have the tech and the cabin IS lumen. Living in one body is just not viable realistically and they both know that
The scientist that designed the technology is now with rhem, I assume she can do it.
Innie Mark didn’t trust outie Mark to actually follow through with anything for him. Innie Mark said once you get what you want you’ll completely forget about me
The show has some nerve to include so much filler and bloat and hide behind oh this is a sophisticated show, no it's just gotten boring.
Echo your thoughts. it was simply boring 😔
Here is what I don't like about Severance: Lumon being a cult.
When it started, I liked the allegories of soulless corporations that suck the life out of you and "reward" you with nothingburgers like new flavors in the vending machine. I liked the "all corporations are evil" thing, because they are.
But I guess you need a corporation to financially support and distribute your thing and you can't bite the hand that feeds you.
So you see not all corporations are soulless and evil, just Lumon, because it is a cult.
Not all corporate people are soulless monsters who would kidnap torture kill if the company demands, just those who were brainwashed. You might even say they are all victims. Even the Kiers. It is all the fault of the founder who fucked them up.
And these are of course false premises. Plenty of people do absolutely horrible things on their own volition, even without financial motivation.
They chickened out.
Yep thought the same thing. It was a bit culty in season 1, but 2 made it the entire identity.
I think out of all the criticisms this is what is wrong with the direction of the show.
The cult angle really undermines a profound critique of late capitalism soulless corporate work culture that season 1 so well establishes with its simple but profound premise. In season 2, It feels much more a criticism of cultism and religion by making Lumon a criminal cult organization.
While that’s not wrong per se, its premise begs for a more interesting critique and implications.
I fully agree. I was 100% on board with the soulless capitalist corporation stuff. Now it is just a "cults are bad" thing, which we have seen before. But could Apple, or any major studio, really do an anti-major-company show? It seems not :(
S1 excellent. S2 terrible.
Can anyone explain the goat and goat woman? Im baffled
It feels like some symbolic thing to represent sacrifice for the company. But it just feels so needless and feels like an excuse to justify the weird goat department being teased earlier.
It's cheaper to buy a goat at a farm than to have a bunch of Severance employees raising goats in Lumon's basement.
Maybe there’s some weird policy that everything used in the offices of Lumon has to be Lumon only products. There’s no Lumon branded goats so they breed their own.
I just binged the whole series in the past few weeks.
One thing I noticed that nobody seems to be talking about is the phones.
They were using late 90's - early 2000's flip phones in season 1. And suddenly in season 2 they switched to 2020's smartphones??
Can anyone think of a logical explanation for this other than lazy writing?
It's like many shows you can't quite spot the era so you can't pin point the tone. He had an iPhone in s1
I read an interview with a writer who said it's intentional, but didn't specify why
Mark had a smart phone in season 1. It was the scene of him taping the picture of his wife.
Its like all the cars in the show are from the 70s/80s too. Seems like all over the place. Haven't finished S2 but in the process and I am afraid this is already lost itself a bit.
Ok so I just binged this all in the last three days (recovering from surgery) and I fell in love with the first season by the end and the s1 finale is one of the greatest episodes of tv I’ve ever watched. Season 2 kept me hooked even though I was constantly confused and upset. Just finished the s2 finale. I’m so mad. I’m SO mad. Oh my god I’m so mad. And sad and scared and worried. I “hate” this show.
…Can they drop season 3 now please? Like, expeditiously inject it into my skull PLEASE I need to see Gemma be ok
ME TOO UGHHHH!!! And it KILLED ME to see Gemma watch Mark and Helly get together WHAT THE FCK
Does it bother anyone else how little time they actually spend doing their job?
I think the point is they're actually test subjects and don't really do anything meaningful.
Especially the 3 others (Irv - Helly - Dylan). Apparently as revealed in E9, the files they complete are meaningless, only Mark's files matter??
Mark said specifically "I completed 24 files". And Cold Harbor is the 25th.
I think they all worked in those fibres, they all worked towards it
Like “Lost” where they clearly didn’t have an ending, at least the numbers had meaning and we found out what they were. I was angry Mark went back in but realize Gemma was safe when I was reminded here that she had help in Cobel and Mark’s sister Devon.
The acting and actors in the series are amazing. I was taken in by Prime’s Upload in the first season but it lost me in the second. I got wrapped up this series and finished it quick. I hope the third season of Severance has a premise that will be consistently entertaining and interesting.
They absolutely have the ending and they even told it to Adam Scott, source: Adam Scott himself
Did he/they say how many seasons they plan on doing?
I can't confirm that, but I heard from some other fan that they plan at least 4.
LOST absolutely had an ending. What did you struggle with?
The fact that the “ending” did not resolve any of the major plot points in the show.
It's JJ Abrams Mystery-box show - you ought not to expect that
I really don't understand the reasoning behind the plot. So Lumon is psychologically torturing Gemma in order to test the Severance procedure and apparently every time Mark completes a file it is a new Innie personality?
If that's the case, why did they kidnap a randomish woman, fake her death and than hire her husband in order to test it? Why didn't they get one of the faithful from the cult? Why aren't they using actual torture to elicit stronger emotional responses? Weren't there a million easier, safer ways to do test the procedure?
Also the ending... so now Gemma is awake inside the cult headquarters, what's the plan? Hope that no one from management, or security sees her and orders her forced back inside? They're a cult and they've been shown to do worse than that before.
This whole season just felt weak. Like they just randomly dropped a number of plot points, or forgot about them.
Wait…… if the innies personality is written and tailored, why is Helly R so rebelious? If Helly is just propaganda, why don’t make her joyful and a follower of Lumons rules?
That's the first test subject they never did that before
Gemma isn't a "randomish" woman. Lumon seems to have targeted and groomed her, perhaps as early as the blood drive, but at least starting at the fertility clinic. We don't yet know why they chose her. We do know Jame and the other cultists are deranged, and their decisions aren't usually driven by logic.
I very much consider what they're doing to be torture, both psychological and physical. One innie is writing endless thank you notes until her hand cramps, as she's forced to play house with her creepy stalker. Another's entire existence is having dental procedures.
The plan is for Gemma to exit the stairwell where Devon and Cobel will be waiting. Lumon's security isn't great, especially now. They never expected an innie revolt to get this far, or for an innie to coordinate a rescue plan with their outie. They were completely caught off guard due to their laziness and arrogance.
I think she went their on her own will. She knew that the relationship is not the same cux of them not being able to have a kid.
did i miss something or are you just assuming they started grooming her at the fertility clinic
In the clinic scene Dr Mauer passed Gemma by the front desk
She also stated that the items that came in the mail for her must have been from a mailing list at the clinic
She also got the same card that Dylan stole from O&D from the fertility clinic
This is helpful to me because I was thinking Mark was better off protecting everyone from the outside but I forgot Gemma had help from the outside to help protect her. I don’t recall what reformed Cobel that she can’t get back into the cult though.
Cobel isn't reformed. She has been betrayed and disowned. She's just motivated to get back at Lumon at this moment in time. She also has some kind of affection for Mark. But, she's far from a trustworthy ally.
I'm not saying they're giving her roses and candy, but what I mean is, if the goal is to really stress test severance, than where's the water boarding? Where's the psychotically spicy food? Where's the one who believes she's being held captive and about to be killed?
Right, what I'm saying is that it doesn't make any sense to me. There aren't even hints that she's important, outside of the fact that they targeted her. If there was a single hint that they couldn't have used someone else, I'd understand it more.
The only lapses we've seen have been on the innie floor and that seems to be solely related to activities by the innie's on the floor. They have cameras virtually everywhere, they have some kind of "code detecting" machine on the elevator, security guards, and a giant corporate campus and they're just going to let her walk out? The only way that works is if no one has been told to keep an eye out and no one reports her missing, or raises a flag about any of the events that just happened.
this has probably been a bunch mentioned before, but why did they just gloss over the impact of the OTC on the outside world? in the first episode or so, Milchick shows Mark a newpaper with all of them being paraded around as the face for change, and says something to him later on about marks “outie’s newfound fame” getting to him. Was the newspaper even real? Also, how much time passed between the OTC and Mark coming back into work?
No time has passed, Mark came back the next day. The newspaper story was made up.
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Just to tack onto this Mark actually calls Milchick out on this at some point during the season. I forget the exact line, but he asks if something he says was printed in the same bullshit newspaper, or something to that effect
I just watched both seasons - he called it the "Bullshit Gazette" 😂
I just finished binging S1 and 2 for the first time. S2 was a clear downgrade, and it felt cheap in a lot of its plot. The biggest example of this for me was the whole reintegration plot line, which was one of the biggest nothingburgers I've ever seen.
For the reintegration plot it all kicks into "high gear" at the middle of the season. Mark asks for the procedure and I remember thinking and reading comments about how it seems crazy that they will reintegrate so soon in the season, and they just draaaaag it out. On one episode we see mild effects of it, on another they need to do another procedure, next episode is full cobel episode, etc. We get like 3 teases that hint that reintegration has happened, but it never does, and we actually finish the season with Mark not reintegrated at all...
This season was slow and boring at parts, I used the fast forward button many times, which I almost never do.
For me where it really dropped off was the “outside” episode. In particular, they just settled into sleep in tents without any character mentioning that they had no prior experience of sleep other than being punished for dozing.
Not exactly a plot hole, but just incredibly lazy writing.
Yeah, the the two eps were good but. The long one shots, awkward pauses, the plot just to pork, irving turning into a murderer ahole before consulting other two friends. The season 2 was way off. I dodged off way many times during this season.
This season didn't vibe with me. They ran out of good ideas. Too much bloat and lazy character building for most. I was completely disengaged from Irving and Burts relationship for instance.
The innie plot armor really got to me. There was no real stake or danger for the protagonists.
I really feel this show should have had this be its final season and restructured the episodes instead of prolonging the story. Can't wait to see what convenient excuse they have this time for innie mark surviving a whole other season.
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I think if they were going to pull this, the reveal would have had to happen in episode 10. A double-tap rug-pull is great because the audience assumes they won't pull the same trick right away. But revealing it in the next season? Doesn't feel as effective.
I almost wonder if they waited too long for her episode. Given it's a bottle episode without touching the rest of the plot, feel like they could have had Chikhai Bardo early in the season to establish what's happening to Gemma, and start the ticking clock early.
Season 2 had some really high highs and really low lows. The season finale was the lowest point in the season for me.
So many episodes were massively bloated with filler and the entire marching band was a celebration of that bloat in the worst way possible.
Episode 7 and 8 are tied for best episodes of the season for me and I wish they had captured that feeling across the whole season but it feels like they were more interested in setting up season 3 than telling a compelling story in season 2.
*SPOILER ALERT*COMPLETE SPOILER ALERT*SPOILER*
I loved season 1 so much but found season 2 painful to watch.
Devon interpreting “SHE’S ALIVE” whilst Mark S was holding a photo portrait of he and his outties deceased wife as though he was referring to Devon’s missing baby was farfetched – he was so clearly referring to the photograph.
The end of season 1 was one of the most excruciating cliffhangers in TV history IMO, to not follow up with the most urgent matter at hand (Gemma being alive and the possibility that Lumon faked her death/kidnapped her) immediately rendered the audience (who was marvellously captured at this point) as dumbcunts, and I found it a mockery to think we’d believe the route they ended up going.
There were soo many leaky holes in the plot of season 2. Devon and Mark Scout blindly trusting Miss Cobel after all she did i.e PRETENDING TO BE SOMEONE ELSE was inconceivable. ACAB, but why were cops not hired to investigate Gemma’s potential kidnapping? It was briefly mentioned that Lumon had "their hands in many pies" within the real world but c'mon. Where the fuck did Irving go? And Ricken, the pseudo-intellectual empath, why the fuck was he not assisting his wife Devon in assisting Mark trying to find his potentially kidnapped in-law?
Personally, the tone, confined setting(s), limited world, as well as the cadence in season 1 coalescing is what made it so impactful. The absolute abandonment of those qualities in season 2 lost me—it was jarring, even. The primary objective of season 2 should have been, in my opinion, to find out if Gemma was alive and illuminate Lumon’s monstrosities right from the jump?! All these side quests seemed completely ill-guided… it’s kind of like they got a different director and writer for every episode? (I’m aware I’m being completely ignorant now).
Anyway, I feel duped and dumb.
Devon not immediately understanding the meaning of “she’s alive” is totally believable. It was inconceivable to them that Gemma was not in a car accident because that is what they believed for a very long time. It’s not that she rejected the idea (they explicitly debated the possibility), it’s that they did not know if Mark S was referring to the photograph or to the baby. That’s why they wanted to talk to Mark S to confirm what he meant, because the answer to that would have profound implications to the actions they’d have to take. It’s believable.
Why were the cops not “hired” to investigate it? Because there was no evidence of it. Do you think Lumon wouldn’t know how to fake a death and influence authorities to not look too closely at certain things? Nobody at any point had verifiable proof that she was alive that the cops would believe. This point of yours is just silly. The cops wouldn’t believe this crackpot theory of theirs.
Just binged both seasons for the first time and definitely agree with you - I was feeling sad for having missed the s1 ending cliffhanger in real time, but probably would’ve been more let down with s2 otherwise. I think s2 started out really strongly with episode 1 and sort of episode 2 - super unsettling for us as viewers to realize the innies big escape was covered up/explained away by corporate, etc - but agree the Gemma storyline should’ve been more of the focus right after that. Also didn’t like all of the exterior-ness - ep 7 was really great but having sweet vitriol right after that didn’t do it for me, despite it ending with some valuable info about cobel.
But, anyway, excited for s3 regardless lol. Gotta chase the high of experiencing s1 for the first time
I found myself thinking this is an utter insult to the audience intelligence come 202. Seths review was probably the funniest part of the season- reflected almost exactly how ridiculous corp environments are....Your summation far from ignorant, perfect even of my thoughts the entire time. I rewatched s1 to give it the attention and the the know it deserved - and I have to say I agree with each and every one of your points! -spared me having to write it all --- s1 hard 10/10 s2 is lucky if it got passed a 4.
I did the same thing: rewatched S1 before watching S2 and yeh, there’s just such a stark contrast between the 2 it almost felt like a different show.
That being said, I’ll probably still tune in for S3.
Free Mark S free MDR!
Ricken, an empath? He's a self-obsessed man-child whose wife had to comfort him when she was in labor. He cares about his sleazy book deal.
Why would Devon trust the cops in the town of Kier? The show went out of its way to show us how embedded Lumon was in every public institution--the police, the hospitals, the morgue, the churches... Devon is smart. She knew the cops were complicit.
The structuring of Season 2 is a bit rough, but the show has always been a thematically dense slow burn. You're missing out on a hell of a lot if you're just watching for big flashy payoffs and spoonfed answers, and tuning out everything else. The writers are telling the story they want to tell, and you've done yourself a disservice going in with such rigid expectations. The story is so much bigger than just a single superficial plot point about what happened to Gemma. Just read a summary of the season if that's all you care about.
Why would Devon trust the woman who faked her identity, posed as her doula and her brother's neighbour? You're not wrong, but she could have sought help in literally any other way and it would've been more believable.
Lol I live for the thematically dense slow burn, but I think it could have been written more cohesively in season 2 and maybe even concluded there. But no, they butchered it up into pieces and gonna stretch this out for another 3-4-5 seasons?
Maybe I'm not enough of a TV person. I was captivated, now I'm not.
P e r s o n a l l y, I think shit became gaudy and over the top.
I don't think it's trust, I think it's desperation.
I agree, but it was too soon. She was insisting on calling her as Reghabi was still working on Mark.
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You scamming?
No?
Why you sound surprised when you’re linking something that’s extremely similar to common scams
I have a theory. Lumon is trying to cure death. Can’t really offer in depth elaboration but I think that’s what they were doing with Gemma. I think Gemma really died in car crash, and they are trying to “cure” her. That’s why they offered the goats life, to transfer its life/ soul in to her’s. At one point one doctor says to Gemma than when all is done she will see the world again and the world will see her.
I thought they were trying to make people into mindless slave labour. Like when they asked her to disassemble the crib and she just followed with no emotional attachment
Yeah i had similar theory but mine was lumon is trying to cure death of eagans.
Could be, but ones done they can scale it, make start up out of it 😀😀
I agree that's what I feel like too. A way to pass soul/consciousness from body to body so that the Eagans can live forever. Take your consciousness and stick it in a new body with none of the trauma of death.
Why did Drummond say the goat would be entombed with someone? Was that Gemma?
This isn't supported by the events of the show. We've seen Gemma at various points during her confinement, and she's always appeared perfectly healthy. Allentown (the x-mas note room) was iMark's very first file, completed shortly after the "crash," and yet she was fine in the Allentown room.
The Lumon scientists/execs have alluded to testing severance barriers, and a battle against pain, not death. Drummond stated outright that the goat would be "entombed" with her, and its spirit was to guide hers in the afterlife. A healthy Gemma was about to be murdered. Cold Harbor had nothing to do with curing anyone; it was about perfecting a new chip, and Dr. Mauer was likely referring to her chip being mass produced and distributed.
We're given an explanation for the ashes in oMark's basement, when Reghabi explains Lumon has connections to the local morgue. They aren't hers because Lumon faked her death.
Random observation: in Cold Harbor, when Mark is fighting with Drummond, at one point he crawls on the floor to get away from him... 🤔
Oh! That’s a good take.
It might just be coincidence, Drummond was beating the hell out of him and he could probably barely stand up as it was... but just an observation!
It’s hard to figure out what is story vs stage craft.
What's interesting about that?
Babies crawling around in the opening credits..? Maybe I'm reaching here, but it reminded me of it.
Ah. Ok.
The ending PMO so much, I swear I was rage screaming episodes leading up to the finale. The sister was such a C you next Tuesday and Mark S. was such a POS 😡
[deleted]
But only on the internet. Not under or beside.
Just finished season 2 for first time
What. A. Show.
Where the fuck was helly when Dylan and band were holding down the vending machine / room?
She vanished for a while. I feel like outie Helly was the one at the door and innie Helly wouldn’t have given him the look to “stay”
That was heartbreaking.
Poor Jemma after everything she went through for 2 years of torture after being kidnapped.
Does Mark ever actually leave Lumon with his outie now having Jemma free?
If so, don’t both outie mark and innie mark get to be with the people they love?
I’m still not sure that it was Helly at not Helena who was inside there
I’m extremely confident it was Helena in the final moment after the dad felt “duped”
Helly disappeared when Dylan was holding the vending machine by himself and she was nowhere to be seen when band finally was convinced to stand up too.
Agreed. Plus to the all support on this already named+ there was a very deliberate conversation line like “mark isn’t able to tell the difference.”
2 months late here but I like this theory. I think it was Helly to start and then when they realized Mark and Gemma were escaping, they turned Helly back into Helena to make sure Mark didn’t leave as well. I feel like Helly would’ve tried to make him leave, considering she was in on the plan and knows her outie is an Eagan which means Helly has basically no chance of continuing life forever as an innie.
Mark’s innie might have delusions about being able to keep living his innie life but surely Helly would know that she has no hope of convincing her outie to let her live. I think the fact that ‘Helly’ doesn’t say anything at all to Mark in the final scene is an indicator that it’s Helena. Didn’t want to say anything at all and risk tipping off Mark that it’s not Helly
How would leaving the building allow both the outie and innie to be with the people they love?
Well Every day at 5:10 mark leaves to be his outie who will now have Gemma back
Everytime he goes into Lumon, his innie will have Helly
Isn’t that the best of both worlds and nobody dies?
He set off a coup, killed someone, and destroyed their most valuable project. MDR was about to be dissolved anyway. There's no job for iMark to go back to. And oMark has no reason to ever return to Lumon if he gets out. He has Gemma again.
This is all assuming reintegration doesn't go anywhere. We don't know how that process will affect them over the next while.
What were other offices doing in their MDR departments? Like italian office, or the offices where replacements worked (Mark W and the woman).
Weren't the replacements basically temp workers? They grabbed some desperate people that were already severed. At least Mark W seemed to be considering you seen security walking him out and him complaining about getting fired after only 3 days of work.
Yeah, but I assume their innies have been telling the truth about their work history
It's a good question. We don't know yet.
Literally finished S2 10 mins ago. You're right in all this. Just to add, I think they might be setting up something. Outie Helly's father tells that he saw Kier in the innie one, maybe he's looking to replace the outie Helly with the innie?
Where does outie Helly fit into this? She has sex with innie Mark, and feels something (envious?) when looking at innie Haley kissing. In the S2 finale, Haley also suggests that outie and innie Haley is the same person? Outie Haley also seems to meet (outie) Marks and talks about introducing to her father.
Is that Haley E who told that the outie and innie were the same person? Is Haley E going to rebel against her dad and also oppose her replacement by innie Haley?
Yes, her father prefers Helly (innie) over her outie, so she might be able to negotiate with him on some things. I agree he may want her as his successor.
Helena (outie) does feel jealous towards her innie and has some attraction to Mark. Hopefully, we'll learn more about her perspective next season.
Helena (outie) was not present in the finale. When Helly (innie) told innie Mark "I'm her," she was resigning herself to her fate. She recognizes she and her outie are inextricably linked, and therefore her relationship with Mark is doomed.
Exactly! Just found a time for watching S2. There is no way that it was outie Helena. It was for sure innie Helly for many reasons. She might have just vanished to go and find Mark. Also there is no way she could have activated that Golden or whatever protocol in the middle of all that chaos.
Just finished this... Why didn't they come up with the plan b of kidnapping Helly and doing the procedure on her? They coulda agreed to like knock her out chemically or whatever and to smuggle her out. Reintegrate.
I’ve just read through a bunch of these opinions and I’m relieved I’m not alone in my frustration with Severance S2.
I saw one opinion that it probably should have ended without knowing Marks choice between Helly and Gemma which I agree with. Even more though, him walking out with Gemma to me would make more sense for furthering the story. Like he’s partially re-integrated and being out there discovering his memories there could have been conflicting emotions as he remembers being with Helly and loving her.
Plus I actually do want to see how they would take Lumon down. I doubt that Gemma escaping and telling her story would really be enough if she can’t remember the things that happened as her ‘innie’. There is definitely untold story there but so much of Season 2 felt dragged out and unexplained. Especially the Cobel part, it was intriguing sure but I’m still confused about her motivations now, does she want to take them down to save people, to get credit? Why didn’t she explain things better to Mark as to like why him? Why Mark and Gemma? What purpose do the other 3 serve or is it purely to facilitate Mark staying? Are there other people like Gemma?
I found the final room in Cold Harbour where she dismantled the crib so interesting and revealing more about motivation. Is it just about separating consciousness or are they maybe trying to find ways to eradicate or control impacts of trauma?
I just think a lot of time was wasted and could have been used better. So many things happen where I find myself asking why?
I hope Season 3 is better thought out and makes those gaps in season 2 make more sense because I feel like there is so much that they abandoned this season after all the build up. I’m disappointed as well because the beginning of the season was quite painfully boring. There’s so much I want to see within the world that we don’t get to and so much they showed that we really didn’t need.
Couldn't agree more. It was like the most suspenseful cliff hanger over all time to conclude season 1, and the entirety of season 2 felt like fodder.
I feel Cobel's motivations are pretty obvious. She just wants to see the whole place burn. They took everything from her including her ideas and blueprints of severance and she gave them all she had just for them to ultimately discard her like she was useless. She went back to get proof they stole her ideas/blueprints; then she was presented with another opportunity to further bring down Lumon with witnesses and testimonials of kidnapping and what they were doing via Mark, Devon, and Gemma.
As far as Cold Harbor that was a test to prove they finally successfully removed the principles in which they believe a human shouldnt hold via technology rather than through practice and punishment which wasnt exactlyhighly effective anyway. (Its essentially a cult gone corporate.)
All that said, I too am extremely frustrated at the ending. It literally makes 0 logical sense to run back into Lumon when there's no possibility of long term survival on the severance floor that we or they have been presented with by that point. If they were willing to kidnap and enslave Gemma what makes them think they wouldn't do the same with them? Lumon clearly has their hands in ALOT of pockets. Even if they start a revelation with all the innies its not exactly like they can do much of anything with it. Reintegration is the only real possibility and thats not feasible on severance floor. Idk, love makes you do dumb things but this was just ridiculous.
Edit: Grammar.
Innie mark going back inside is a very human and understandable reaction to anyone with sympathy (in my opinion). Innie Mark feels no sense of loyalty to outie Mark, and the only person he really loves is Helly. Not many people would be willing to die for someone they don’t know. Even if death is imminent, most people would choose to spend as much time as possible being alive and with the people they love. It’s also possible that innie Mark believed there was more of Lumon to be fucked with and that his job of causing mayhem was not done, although that’s more speculation.
I like how they start to elaborate more on what the “vision“ is from Kier … It’s revealed more toward the end is S2 that this is all about eliminating one from experiencing pain. Like Hedonism. Like when Cobel visits her sister or whatever and the comment is made about the room the mother died in “nothing but pain awaits you in there“ etc … this is after Cobel decides to turn her efforts against lumon … it’s almost as if she gave herself a moment to allow herself to feel pain and grieve when she laid in the bed and put that breathing tube thing in her mouth … when Gemma goes into each of the rooms she experiences some level/variation of pain. When she is asked afterwards “after which room did you feel pain?“ it seems they were taking notes on what to work on to eliminate that. Buncha sickos … anyways it’s important to grasp the deeper philosophical meanings behind shows. If you could turn off anything painful in your life, would you? What would be the cost? Is there value to feeling pain? In some cases, people compartmentalize or develop other personas to survive pain. I think that this is very well done and super cool to see what Ben Stiller is working on these days.
For me that was the absolute key moment of the show.. this one line "Kiers eternal war against pain" suddenly the motivation of that company and their insane and unethical pratices make sense. The Dr. treating Gemma is certainly sick, I wish it would have been him who got to experience the nail gun. I don't really want to know to what treatment Gemma was subjected to in the rooms that we did not see, it might have been even more disturbing stuff. Her having to endlessly write christmas cards almost feels comical in comparison to what I think this company is capable of. I hope she will not be reintigrated.
What a deep show, and the emotional impact it leaves on you.
I haven't cried this much on a show since... ever I think? The ending was so beautiful and sad
Why in the world would an “innie” feel anything that is related to an outie life experience? Isn’t that the damn point of an innie?? The whole damn time we knew innies would not share any part of their outies life. What a stupid finale and exhausting season.
It seems heavily implied that the severance technology isn't completely perfect and like 90% of what Lumon is doing is testing more and more extreme circumstances to see if the barrier holds. Also in season 1 multiple characters (for example petey) claim that you can feel certain effects of your outie/innie's life on you
They are trying to perfect the technology by testing extreme circumstances, like two outie lovers meeting and working together without having any feelings toward each other. They are testing if the barrier holds, and also how many different innies one person can have without falling apart.
I understand the multiple “innie” plot point, but dissembling a crib as the culmination is silly, in my opinion. All season cold harbor was built up as something critical, but it turned out to be disassembling a crib after her and mark literally sat in the same room on several different occasions. After all, it was Mark that Gemma was still asking for after two years. We were never exposed to the idea innies could falter and sense an outie experience. It was already discussed as full proof for the audience.
Dissembling a crib seemed to be tied to one of her core traumatic memories (Mark Scout and the crib), as a final test that her brain was totally and completely wiped of any problematic tethers to their husband and initial reasons for seeing medical attention. It would've meant the chip's tests were a total success and she was ready to be unloaded of it and the multi-personality swapping chip put into somebody else (probably Helena, given her dad's thoughts and supervision).
But they had dozens of instances where Mark literally sat across from his dead wife during his wellness visits. Talk about being completely untethered.
Chiming in a bit late, but the fact that Mark made a tree out of clay a day after going to visit said tree, where his wife "died", made it pretty clear there were still some things leaking through.
I am just speculating, as I only just now finished S2 and am looking for clever interpretations. Honestly, I fear right now to have fallen for Lost 2.0. I stumbled over your comment and thought, well, there is one thing in this riddle packed inside of an enigma and stored in a mystery box that I think I understood.
For some people having a child is more important and emotional than being in love. For them it means escaping death in some way. Maybe Lumon came to the conclusion that for Gemma this was the case. In Episode 9 they went at great lengths to characterize Gemma as a woman who nearly breaks because of her inability to have a child.
I was afraid the child supervisor would turn out to be Gemmas and Marks child, I'm glad she is a bit too old for that. That would have been even more seriously f*cked up.
I like your response and it makes sense, but Mark’s pain of losing his wife led to a breakdown and it wasn’t clearly evident that he could not function without her. To me, Mark S. sitting across from Ms. Kasey (Gemma), his dead wife, is a much bigger milestone for the chip than an innie taking apart a crib.
I rewatched Season 2 recently. I... have some thoughts. This show really struggles to explain 'why'. I get it's a psychoanalytic-mystery series subgenre, but the mystery can't be a mystery for its own sake: there has to be an enlightenment, and then a resolution. If Season 1 was the 'mystery', Season 2 should have been the 'enlightenment' and Season 3 the 'resolution'. Instea, this season we had five too many shots of Cobel coldly staring at nothing and slowly saying 'Cold Harbor' to dramatic music that does absolutely nothing to advance the plot or even the conversations with Mark or whoever - it's borderline cringeworthy. I mean, Cobel knew what Cold Harbor was in Season 1, and she invented the chip and likely oversaw the severance programme's implementation, so she must know what Lumon's grand design is or why it is even needed? Even a simple 'Lumon wants to severe the population of the US without them knowing so they can control their work lives and make people do whatever they want' (even if that's a half truth and the real truth is different, i.e. Lumon wants to control the US labor market and 'resurrect' Kier). Or even an explanation for 'why' Gemma and Mark? There are a million other couples Lumon could have preyed on, so why them? I feel like Season 2 was written as a setup for a setup, or a midseason connecting Season 1 and (eventually) Season 3, whereas it should have been just a setup for the third and final part (S3): everything like the impact of Petey on the story and Mark's reintegration felt like it got put on hold in episodes 9 and 10 of S2, I think this made it a rather weak finale that relied more on the audience's reactionary emotional sympathy with innie Mark's 'decision' than actual clever writing. The whole season feels like its missing a third act: it felt stretched-out, it felt like the middle part ended with Gemma's escape and innie Mark's decision; it also felt like we were abrubtly cut off from Helena's (seasonal) arc presumably culminating in her making a choice or statement of either becoming more zealous or rebelling, which would then set-up her character's direction for Season 3; Irving being sent away on the train is the most obvious "you'll get answers next season" pivot i've ever seen and felt contrived, it's like the writers didn't want to 'lock' either Irving or Burt's characters into a particular backstory because that would upset some fans?; Dylan's (seasonal) arc was somewhat more complete and handled better, but to the extent that his actions in the finale were natural (or what he would do regardless) or indicative of his 'decision' to stay or not isn't clear; Milchick's arc was probably the best overall, the writing actually showed his progression in a way that made him a more sympathetic antagonist this time around - instead of just being the 'muscle' or 'mechanical' (comedic) villain archetype he was in Season 1 - by the end of his finale, especially with his rebellious quips at Drummond and then the Keir robot in the finale. I didn't want everything to be answered or answerable if the plan was always to make Severance a three-part (three seasons) show, but I feel like a lot fell-by-the-wayside by not explaining 'why' enough, that this will impact next season because instead of focusing solely on a resolution, the show will spend the first half of the season explaining 'why' everything to date has happened, then the resolution will feel rushed and all of the characters won't have enough time to naturally resolve their internal conflicts while also fighting together towards the story's resolution.
Edit: there is a great example of where in TV a series that is narratively based on a big overarching mystery and doesn't progress beyond that mystery, that fails to englighten the audience and then give a well written resolution, can implode: The Blacklist.
So much this. I was so intrigued by this show in S1, and I've hung on for S2, but I'm irritated. There's something to be said for taking time to enjoy some things - enjoy the moment. There's a like 2-3 minute scene in Ghost in the Shell where it's just her walking around the city, and that's such an amazing thing.
Contrast to Severence where we have to charaters meeting up, both having driven there. They arrive. They both stare at each other for like 30 seconds - forever in TV time. Then one gets out and stares at the other for 30 seconds. Then the second gets out and stares at the first for 30 seconds, THEN they fucking get the dialogue going.
I found myself irritated and fast forwarding during some of the hallway running scenes and other scenes where they were just fucking wasting time for no good reason.
There's atmosphere, and then there's masturbation.
I'll watch S3 because I've invested this time. I hope it fuckin' pays off. But I have doubts. So much wasted time staring unrealistically bfore saying anything so often. Use it like spinkles - occasional. Don't bury the damn cake in that shit to hide that the cake is jsut a cupcake.
In TV and movies there is a term "shoe leather" that sometimes describes this. Like TV from the 70's for example would stretch scenes that lacked content by showing you the guy getting out of his car and walking over to the other guy across the parking lot before getting into the dialogue.
Shoe leather is great. Severence felt like they were on platform shoes. hehehe
Thanks for the [new to me] term! Love it <3
I agree with you so much
Well said!
See also: Lost
One thing that I noticed the characters almost never talking about is the pay at their jobs, aside Mark getting that one time raise. I wonder if they’re being paid so well that on top of their other reasons, it doesn’t matter to them for them to be Severed. They don't look like they're living lavish lives, but enough to get by for sure. It makes you wonder what they do in their free time but also, do they get weekends off? It would be interesting to see them in outtie form for a longer time. What does PTO look like for the characters?
I still don't know why the first episode in season one had Mark accidentally run into Hellie in the parking lot, what became of that?
I also want to acknowledge, mainly because I have not seen many mention it on Reddit, acting props to Jaime and Drummond. They were both terrifying characters in their own respective ways. I wish Drummond was kept around, he would've made a solid antagonist given his commanding voice and build. Jaime's soft and creepy voice was also very unsettling to hear, especially when he tells Hellie "I don't love my daughter".
I also liked how the office gradually got darker and darker as the season progressed. We started the show with brightly lit offices but by the end, the same space having less light made it so much creepier and haunting to witness.
In first episodes of S1 Mark told Helly that after going in elevator at friday you return on monday. And about running into Helly in the parking lot - i think it's just a way of showing two different perspectives. First episode - pov Mark, second episode - pov Helena (Milchick gave her those flowers as a present for first day at work). Also works like a demonstration of 'staggering the exits'
Did you read the Lexington Letter? There's more of a reference to salary there. Iirc, the pay is amazing for an entry-level job with lower educational requirements.
The show doesn't make money a focus, and we can't really tell anything based on living situations. Irv and Mark aren't interested in much, so they live simply. Dylan has a modest middle class home, but he has a big family and he's bad with money. It seems the pay is just high enough to convince desperate people to go through brain surgery.
I think it's good they don't make pay a focus. But from what I recall of the Lexington Letter she was a school bus driver initially and found the pay with Severance was amazing, so maybe that gives a sense of scale.
Binge watched the show from start to finish for the first time over the weekend. Season 1 was incredible and season 2 was overall decent with some great parts sprinkled in between.
Some spoilers, just in case.
Fuck the innies. I'm completely team Outies
The entire Burt and Irving story lines and characters could have been eliminated and not a lot would change. Nobody wants to know that two sixty year old men want to smash, fucking gross. Thankfully I skipped most of their scenes in season 1
Helly R is honestly not too different from Helena in being cruel. Minutes earlier she convinced Mark s to do the right thing and then when Mark is debating, she indirectly chooses for him by standing there teary eyed. Her look to Gemma was so fucking insufferable like bitch you barely lived for hours whereas Gemma has been tortured for years and you steal her husband from her fuck you Helly Eagan, maybe Kier is within you afterall
The pacing was bad in the later parts of season 2. Characters making dumb decisions, too many slow mo inconsequential shots, and worst of all people not talking to each other and asking questions...
I think I won't be back for season 3. My conclusion is that Gemma went out and Mark talked to Helly R. and said there is no possibility of them as innies existing forever so rather the outies live properly. Thus Mark S becomes the hero and our Outies get their happy ending
Edit : forgot to add my biggest gripe. The whole Reghabi and reintegration is absolutely useless
They didn't show them fucking, but they did show romance. I thought it was quite sweet. You being so keen on it being gross makes me wonder about you rather than them, but this isn't intended as an attack on ya. I just think that's a bit weird of a reaction. But maybe if you're young enough, anyone over 35 is ancient and gross or something. :shrug:
Plotwise, meh.
The Burt/Irving romance was like one of the best parts of the show.