America has fought in lots of wars, but from 1972 to 1990, we were relatively peaceful. Europe has had international wars constantly from 1945 back to the beginning of time. But after 1945 it was peaceful (except for Yugoslavia civil war). So in the late 1980s, when The Sandman comic books came out, seeing Destruction quit, made sense.
But we live in a post 9/11 world now. America fought in Iraq and Afghanistan for almost twenty years. And we have had the recent wars in Ukraine and Israel. Destruction should not be quitting, he's more relevant than ever.
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Destruction didn't stop because an Endless left their post - remember, he abandoned it in the 1730's NOT in the 1990's
There was still plenty of destruction, but the line was: "Perhaps more uncontrolled, perhaps wilder. Perhaps not - but no longer anyone's responsibility."
Isn’t it heavily implied that he wanted to avoid nuclear warfare specifically — as if he had witnessed nuclear warfare obliterate a species somewhere? At least, the show made that connection, even if the comic didn’t.
I don't think so? But maybe in the show...
But seems odd as he left in the 1730's - and it strikes me if he'd wanted to stop it, he'd have wanted to stay in charge of it?
Endless are not supposed to stop things from happening, but it is stated in the comics and made clearer in the show the connection to the nuclear warfare
It`s when he last meets Dream and talks about Newton`s statement about matter and energy and that this is how it always begins and it implies that will lead to nuclear weapons
It`s heavily implied that he has already seem worlds and species decimated because of the nuclear weapons and he doesn`t want to feel responsible for all the carnage that comes after this again
However we have to remember when the comics were written and that Gaiman grew during the years of fear of a nuclear war at anytime, so this perspective made sense to all who grew during that period
Yeah and Newton died in the early 1700's (1727) - which is about when Destruction abandoned the Endless, though I must admit I don't remember the particular statement you're referring to
But my point was Destruction was clear he asserts LESS (read: no) control by virtue of having abandoned his post
I think you're right on the horrors of war - but the nuclear argument makes even less sense sitting where we do now? The next war will be cyber and drone and dollars - it's looking increasingly less nuclear
yeah, I agree with you
I was actually making a point that he didn't abandon his post to avoid a nuclear warfare, it was inevitable, he just wouldn't have any agency over it, like you said in your previous comment
and I do agree that it makes less sense now and could be adapted to cyber and drone, but that would take a lot of adaptation on the last encounter with Dream, so they probably just stick with the nuclear original storyline
but maybe we could argue that the nuclear warfare is more devastating, since drones and machines taking over is just the death of humanity, not creation itself, just something else becoming the dominant "species". But a nuclear war means the destruction of all the planet, all living things, all machines, basically everything
I mostly agree with you, I don't think OP really gets the point of Destruction leaving and to say it was peaceful times.... well ask native americans and indigenous from south america what were those peaceful times
We see the Endless in a prequel story for a marriage on an alien planet in one comic. He for sure saw non-human species destroy each other. I mean the first or second Sandman story has J'onn J'onzz react to Morpheus. They all exist simultaenously to non-humans.
But OP was making a point about Destruction quitting in the late 1980's/1990's making sense because we were in period of relative peace
I was questioning (and still am) how that narrative makes any sense, either in-universe or narratively
And (apologies) I'm not quite sure what you're getting at?
Yes, I guess some people forget that the endless are truly endless and are on every single planet and felt by every living thing throughout the universe. The comic shows us that even Stars, Suns and planets feel their presence and get affected by them. Every species sees them differently.
Yes, he specifically did. It was a scientist (Newton?) saying “Are not light and gross bodies interchangeable?” Which is kind of awkward wording for our ears but what that means is that energy and matter are the same thing and can change between on and another, the principle of atomic weaponry. In a nuclear explosion, some amount of mass is directly converted to energy. And it doesn’t take much to have a lot of energy released. And only a small amount of matter is annihilated. If it was antimatter, and the annihilation is 100%, it would only take a minuscule amount to actually break the earth.
Yep you're right - although that makes even less sense give OP's "we lived in a time of relative peace when Sandman was written" screed
And yeesh Destruction really was a selfish prick -- he'd prefer living 1700's style
Well, it’s a very western centric point of view to say that that was a peaceful time. Anyways, there are loads of people all over earth would line up to disagree with it.
And... yeah... very little of OP made sense to me
I mean, I get what they were trying to say, and it clearly put some side into it. They just kind of forgot that destruction had already been gone for 200 years plus
It was mentioned in one of the books after The Wake. How the destruction of an entire species to nuclear tech affected him, and how it seems to be an inevitable discovery. (Edit: just read further comments you left, you’re right he wasn’t doing it to avoid it happening, he left to avoid witnessing/being a part of it)
Yes, more or less. He comments on how mortals tend towards technology and destroy everything.
Also to note, it's very fitting that Destruction was the one who destroyed his office. He's still acting within the confines of his nature, even if he didn't want to admit it.
It's a shame it's such a common trope from the humanities, given technology advancement has been the single greatest force for good along any and every axis of measurement
Progress isn't always up and to the right, but to the extent it bends to good, technology has been at the root of enabling that
The Endless themselves are often the darker side of some contrasting pair that they define by contrast, Death/Life, Dream/Reality, Despair/Hope, Delirium/Sanity, Destiny/Agency, Desire/Satisfaction and Destruction/Creation (some of these are a bit of a stretch as finding a single word is hard).
Note how the Endless will also only see their darker side by default, Dream sees the messy side of all that people envision, but deals poorly with anything concrete and real (e.g. he is amazing at chasing and getting into relationships, but the worst at making them work once they are real), Destiny does nothing for himself, letting his book decide for him. The two exceptions are Death, who made an active choice to change her outlook and embrace what she contrasts and live, and Destruction, who saw the darker side and only after abandoning his post came to see and appreciate the other side of what the Endless define.
True and yeah - Destruction himself does make that point...
...but then wanders even further off the grid, after just learning he'd caused the destruction of all his old friends...
While I agree I also think if you look at earth right now, we're 1 psychopath away from nuclear armageddon at any moment. It'll always be the reality as long as we have nuclear weapons surely.
He had seen the destruction of Krypton.
It wasn't that he wanted to avoid it. He quit because he realized Humanity didn't need him. They were destructive enough on their own.
OP misunderstood why Destruction walked away.
In the Sandman timeline Destruction walks away after he hears Isaac Newton state “Are not matter and light intraconvertible?” because to him that signified the moment at which Mankind’s eventual discovery of nuclear weapons and self-eradication once again became an inevitability. He knew what direction humanity was headed from that point and he wanted nothing to do with it.
I think he quit because the world itself is already super destructive and he felt redundant. We have nukes and stuff now, so he feels like his role has been usurped by humans. He didn’t retire because it was peaceful, he retired because we were doing his job for him. I could be wrong but that was my interpretation.
I think he states he didn’t want to feel responsible for yet another species eradication.
It’s been a while since I’ve read it but I do recall something like that. He didn’t want to be responsible.
I may be mixed up but iirc, I think he says something along those lines in the book, along with the stuff about us destroying ourselves, but the responsibility bit got left out of the show. IF I remember correctly.
Didn’t he say in the show something along the lines, “at least I won’t be responsible for all of it”
Exactly! As a matter of fact, what set him off was the fact he realized humans one day would split the atom and create nuclear weapons. At least that's the impression he gave when he was talking with Dispair during the plague.
Both you and the commenter you're answering are both right
That's the correct interpretation. Destruction was happening and would continue to happen with or without him, and we're all doing a great job destroying everything we can get our hands on.
His existence was meaningless, and pretty depressing. Good on him for leaving.
He mentions that his realm can't actually go crazy like Dream's does because it's in constant flux anyways. It doesn't need him overseeing it. Change is too volatile. There's a throughline theme here with him and also Lucifer just quitting as arbiter over hell.
He abandoned his post in the the early 1700's, not recently
Did he mention a particular event in the 1700s that got him to change his mind? I thought it was about the invention of nukes. It’s been a couple of years since I’ve read it though, my memory is a little fuzzy.
In the show scene he meets with Dream to see a science lecture and alludes to how this is just the start and he sees the same roadmap to humanity splitting the atom and developing nuclear weapons.
The implication is that there comes a point in every civilization where eventually they develop world ending weapons and use them.
I'd have to go back and look too, tbh, but Destruction having left his post was old news but the time of the comics current continuity - that's why Dream and Delirium had to go "find him", triggering all the death and destruction of all who might know how to find Destruction
The booby traps Destruction had set... and of course the thing Dream had to do to finally find him leading to Dream's destruction, too
Talking about this with you guys is making me really want to go and reread the whole series! And I’m right in the middle of reading Chronicles of Amber right now 😭
It's worth a re-read - lol - getting that same itch :)
Maybe I'll do out of order this time... in the mood for a little delight and delirium
I’ve read it a few times over the years, but it’s been a while. I’ll definitely go back in for a fourth reread or whatever pretty soon.
It was a moment of scientific observation he noticed (light and matter being interchangeable iirc). In his experience that moment always led to nuclear war eventually. He just checked out after noticing that.
Something, something, Newton, physics, light & dark matter and the inevitably of humans self destruction from nukes. But it's been a looong time since I read the comics.
Essentially the usual tale of humans not needing gods and demons to destroy because we'll always find a way to do it ourselves without any help
this was also my interpretation. he felt he had little to no purpose.
The real one that hasn't aged well is Pestilence in Good Omens retiring because of antibiotics. Oof.
Humans sucks so much that Destruction was like "nah i'm out"
He didn't walk away because the world was more peaceful in the 90s, which it wasn't by the way.
Yeah the genocide of Palestine was already happening then
Neil Gaiman is English. England had been fighting in international wars since the beginning of time, and then it suddenly dropped off in 1945 (ignoring Falkland Island conflict).
Gaiman isn’t American, he’s English.
He didn't quit because there was more peace in the world, he quit because he no longer wanted to be directly responsible for causing what he himself embodies: destruction.
I think you're missing the point of the character, mate.
So the embodiment (one of Endless) gets to quit whenever he/she wants? He/she is in charger of an entire aspect of humanity? Of does the world quit him/her?
Do you think America is the centre of the universe or something?
Fair question, but it made me ask another question of the story: “Do you think the Earth is the centre of the universe or something?”.
If destruction quit because of humans on earth that would indeed be a plot hole as it was shown that the endless are univesal and act on other planets and alien species
The USA might have been more peaceful during the 1990s, but there were parts of the world that weren't. The world is not the USA.
exactly. It is pretty safe to assume that OP is an american for mistaking both
The US went to war with Iraq in the 90s. The US engaged in multiple bombing campaigns in multiple countries in the 90s.
I know. I think op meant within the country. But yes, the US has been involved in external (in their pov) wars for a long time.
Within the country like the LA riots?
Destruction quit because he came to love the very people he'd be responsible for destroying. He started spending time among us and it hurt him to be responsible for our deaths. Global crisis or not, we're always killing each other for some stupid reason or another.
Note, he didn’t quit because there wasn’t destruction, he quit because he didn’t want to oversee destruction.
The Endless, while personifications of their concepts, aren’t wholesale that concept. When Dream was captured for example, dreams glitched out. Some people couldn’t fall asleep, some couldn’t wake up, some were unaffected, and the dream world was ungoverned.
They seem to represent the order behind their concept more than the concept itself.
So when Destruction quit it was the cosmic equivalent of letting a forest catch fire. It throws the ecosystem into disarray, causing upheaval as some die out and some thrive, but unless someone really messes up it will reach a new equilibrium. The concept of destruction became more chaotic as it now must manage itself.
You don't understand why he left at all
Take your America goggles off. This is an ancient powerful entity that despite the appearance, is not human. Destruction quit, not just here on Earth, everywhere. The state of the world has always been one of conflict. In 1990 war and conflict were present throughout the world, they always are. 9/11 sticks in your head because you experienced it. Somewhere in the world there has always been someone who remembers something horrific happening. At no point in human history has there been a time when there was no war.
Destruction did not quit, because humanity found peace.
Destruction quit, because living beings got too violent, even for his taste
He quit because he foresaw that living beings, specifically humanity, would become too effective at destruction on a massive, planetary scale, and he refused to be responsible for it.
"When Destruction saw the mind of man turn toward science, he foresaw the inevitable use of science as a tool for destruction on a planetary scale. Not wanting to be responsible for such massive devastation, even obliteration, Destruction abandoned his realm and his responsibilities sometime after 1718."
- Sandman fandom wiki https://sandman.fandom.com/wiki/Destruction
So a) he abdicated already in the 18th century, but in the 1980s and b) it was for actually the opposite than there being peace on earth
and such: The situation today gives the Prodigal right
Not everything is about ‘merica
The whole point of destruction quitting was that he understood humans would go on destroying regardless of how he tried to guide them, so his job was redundant.
Also its not like he quit in the 80s, its pretty clear he had quit hundreds of years before the events of the book.
You have no understanding of the comic lol.
Destruction quit in the 18th century, man, not the 1990s. Dream only caught up to him in the 20th century. Plenty of bad things still happened while Destruction was gone.
Also, he expressly says destruction would still happen, but he wouldn't be responsible for it anymore, which was his whole objection.
To avoid repeating what everyone else has said, I would also add that while the Endless to personify their concepts, but also their opposites.
Death is the most alive of all of the endless, living a human life for one day and experiences death from our perspective.
Dreams are shaped by our lives and reality, but can also shape and influence our lives in the waking world, in fact some of Dreams favourite humans are those who took their dreams and made them a reality, its one of the reasons he fell in love with Nada.
Desire and Despair mirror each other but Desire is also influenced massively by their jealousy, and Despair takes pleasure from it.
Destiny's book is written as events happen, despite him being the concept of Destiny, the outcome of events are not preordained and are influenced by someone's actions and past. Free will babbyyyy
And Delirium it is said to possess knowledge that even Destiny does not know, even if she doesnt understand it.
So with Destruction, what's the opposite? Creation. There can be no destruction without creation first, and creation can follow after destruction. But when we start talking about destruction on a planetary scale and nuclear war, which his realisation that humanity was heading down that path in 18th century is what made him quit (not the subjective era of peace post WW2), then we are talking about a level of destruction that would end the act of creation, destroy all that humans had created, and leave nothing left to create in its wake. And what does he do when he quits? He creates (albit poorly). Creation and destruction are necessary parts of each other, the act of creation can sometimes require destruction, but he will not be responsible for an act of destruction that would end the act of creation. Humans can do it for him. NOT because he was "not relevant".
He didn't WANT to be relevant.
He very explicitly felt guilty that his domain hurt people, despite the fact that he as a "person", loved people.
He had PTSD.
Please remember there is more to the world than America.
This makes zero sense. He literally explains why. Stop making stuff up
And the fact that you somehow shoehorned “America” as the cause. Like seriously 😞, stop😒🙄
First off, Destruction is for the entire universe, not for USA. Also he set things up so that destruction continued but without him.
Also, USA was far, far from peaceful 1972-1990. Even I as a non-american knows this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States_in_the_20th_century
In 1863, America had 1.6 million fighting a civil war. In 1945, America had 12 million people fighting all over the world. In 1969, it had over 500,000 fighting in Vietnam. And you think that is the same as 1989 America?
Did I write that it was "the same"?
The whole universe does not revolve around U.S.A, you know.
Did you not see me mention the eons of internation war in Europe, that ended in 1945?
He is destruction not war! War is but one cause of destruction. Destruction can be slow and gentle/gradual - like decay, or unintended - like an abandoned neglected building collapsing while kids are exploring it - also resulting in death (so destruction of both the building and some lives/bodies/???).
I think he wanted nothing to do with any of it, not just willful violent destruction or death.
I disagree. He's a god of war, but his name must start with the letter D because Gaimen is cool like that.
You think the Endless base what they do after a settler colony that is a blip in their existence? You think we were peaceful in the 70s - 90s? You somehow watched the show and read the book and interpreted the dates he left so poorly?
Fuuuck. It's wild to think someone might let you drive a whole ass car or something.
The USA hadn't even left Vietnam yet in 1972 and was still fucking around all over Central and South America the rest of the 70s and we'll into the 80s.
December 18-29, 1972, American bombers dropped over 20,000 tons of bombs on Hanoi and Haiphong in Vietnam. How many tons were dropped in 1989?
What a fucking dipshit question.
I have facts. You have insults. I win.
Okie dokie kiddo
"And it's not my fault"
He quit a long time ago, not because the world was less destructive, but because it never would be.
He couldn't stop it, didn't want to feel responsible for it, and wouldn't wish it on anyone else. So he lifted his sword and walked away.
Remember when Lucifer closed Hell? They said :
My interpretation is that just like how Lucifer didn't create sinners, Destruction also does not cause humans to destroy each other. I view him as the keeper of his realm and doesn't want to be the one who is responsible for humanity's demise. He saw that humans were on our way to create atomic bombs and want no part in it.
So whether he left his realm or not, humans will still destroy each other because his realm is still there. The same way people still dream even though Dream was imprisoned all those years ago.
It was weird to me he quit because humans were gonna make more destruction. I mean he is destruction for the multiverse im sure alien species had more destructive weapons at the time too.
From the perspective of Humanity, he quit after Alfred Newton's discoveries were apparent. In the grand scheme of things for the Endless, we might have been a footnote compared to what was happening elsewhere in Existence, but at the time Dream and Destruction stood on Earth when the topic was discussed so naturally we'd be the focus.
The U.S. has been involved in near-constant armed conflicts since its founding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_wars_involving_the_United_States
“Are not gross Bodies and Light convertible into one another, and may not Bodies receive much of their Activity from the Particles of Light which enter their Composition?”
― Isaac Newton, Opticks: Or a Treatise of the Reflections, Refractions, Inflections & Colours of Light-Based on the Fourth Edition London, 1730
I still dont understand it because aren’t there thousands of planets, as well as astral planes and mythical places where the Endless need to perform their roles? Doesn’t Hell, for one, need Destruction? (We established that Hell absolutely needs Dream.) Why would Destruction quit over some event in Earth’s timeline. We are just a blip. Why does Earth matter so much? (Of course, it is just a story. )
Read Sandman Overture. There's a Destruction on every planet, and they're all simultaneously separate and the same. Earth's Destruction quit, but it doesn't mean the Destructions of other planets (who are all facets of the same being) also quit.
That makes sense. I think? So when Earth Dream was captured, his aspect should have been still active in Hell and all the other planets/places? Or is Hell an exclusively human/earth realm?
Anyway, appreciate the comment. I have read Overture, the art was amazing, but I don’t remember it as well, the Jack Kirby-ness of it all.
It's all deliberately fuzzy because (A) Gaiman likes that kind of thing in fantasy and (B) it's in a corner of the DC universe, so has to fit in with all the other comics, more or less. But Hell is an exclusively Earth realm.
In Lucifer it's shown to be an exclusively Christian realm, with other religions, in particular Shintoism, having their own Hells. Obviously that's a bit awkward in The Sandman with Nada ending up there, but in Swamp Thing all afterlives are shown to be contiguous and connected (though with some guardians and barriers), and per Season of Mists sometimes gods will take over the afterlives of other pantheons.
(But obviously the real answer is that all this shit is just made up by writers over the course of decades trying to meet their monthly deadlines, and so it's never going to fit together properly.)
Destruction quit because he came to care for humans and knew that with Newtons discovery ultimately leading to nuclear weapons, he did not want to be responsible for the destruction of humanity.
Ok but do you think that the CONCEPT OF DESTRUCTION only care about....America?
I love how Americans compare their one country to the whole continent of Europe to judge stuff like this. "Europe has had constant wars in that period". The US took a few years off from its otherwise constant war (222 years of war out of 239?) but one or two countries from a group of dozens of countries had some conflict and that means Europe is at constant war?
Ignoring the fact that during that 'peaceful time' the US instigated/was (as usual) involved in other countries business and has overthrown various other countries governments, its wild how the bully of the class only has a relatively calm record if you compare it to the combined record of the whole school.
You missed my point. America and (the major powers of) Europe have been warring for centuries when it stopped in 1945 for Europe and stopped in 1972 for America. I apologize for lumping in peaceful Switzerland, Luxemburg, Poland, etc in with Europe.
Apologies if I missed your point. I was a tad sleep deprived and cranky when I commented.
As a Brit I/we don't have a leg to stand on in the topic of wars. Our national museum is basically all stolen goods from countries we occupied or from people we wiped out as an evil empire.
I know. I'm really hoping that someday King William will give Egypt back all its stuff.
It is a criticism of humanity at the end of the day. Destruction left because he realised there didn’t need to be a curator of destruction anymore. Humans can destroy themselves and the planet easily enough. He isn’t the endless of weapons or warfare he is the endless of destruction. Whether that be nuclear war which he was predicting or ruining the planet to the point of collapse. Him leaving wasn’t giving up on his family or necessarily his duties but being part of his family and his position would mean he would witness the destruction. He would rather let humanity choose destruction rather than him doing it himself. When he left the second time after meeting dream, he didn’t just move to another country, he left the planet. Signifying humanity got destruction on lock and wasn’t needed there
me when i watch the show / read the comics with my eyes closed
Brother, destruction is a literal universal concept, Neil Gaiman is british r/USDefaultism
We good without him
Destruction is not concerned with one country only. In fact, it's very unlikely he cares about any of them at all.
https://preview.redd.it/ohcb1tqnzi6g1.png?width=414&format=png&auto=webp&s=64f2cfe4eb1dbaf8e68902dcf891fe64f1ca8802
I think he was just depressed with what's happening. And honestly? that's relatable
The US was never going to be at peace. It needs constant war to maintain its economy. The reason why Destruction quit was because he was no longer needed as to him "humanity will bring about destruction themselves"
Man redditors are so unhindged. This post belongs on doomer circle jerk.
I’d be in flipping business if i was destruction in 2025
Did it have anything to do with the United states?
I always got the feeling that Destruction quit as he'd seen the same pattern over and over again and knew where it was going but felt powerless to alter the path ahead.
As to the timing of when he quit in the early 1700s this was just as the Enlightenment was hitting it's stride in Europe and things were moving from religious to rational, alchemy was becoming chemistry, and the first seeds of the industrial revolution were being planted. It feels like he was choosing to get off the ride at the last quieter moment before he'd be tied into the careening changes that happened.
I wonder by his very nature does he influence a species towards destructive tendencies? I mean we as a species have free will. We can destroy or not. But what's influencing those? Also Destruction doesn't encompass violence we do. Suns explode. Taking solo systems with them. Worlds die on their own. But destruction also brings new life. So what if mankind dies completely? The world will most likely spawn new species later. Destruction takes it too personally I think. And he can't choose to NOT allow destruction I think if he if active in his role. It will go against his nature. He might physically be unable to. There are Rules.
I interpreted it as a way to convey that him leaving basically made the world collapse into more wars because destruction wasn't controlled as much but I might be wrong
Why would the concept of Destruction care about the US? It's an insignificant blip on its map.
Also, where is it written that the US was "relatively peaceful" from the '70s to the '90s? They instigated coups in the entire world, that country hasn't known a single year of peace in its entire existence.
Do you know what an active war is? You can't compare 1984 America to 1944 America or 1864 America. Instigating a coup is not the same (destruction) as bombing Hiroshima.
I can and i will, it's still dead people they have on their conscience and destruction they created that still goes on to this day.
You don't get to define peace as "we killed slightly less people than usual in that timeframe".
You're right. Dropping two nuclear bombs in 1945 (150,000 killed in just two days) is just as destructive as giving the Afghans some RPGs in the 80s to defend themselves from Soviet invaders.
Yeah, let's ignore the fact that they put into motion a series of events that led to the destabilization of the entire region and the death of hundreds of thousands over the next 40 years.
The US did not start the Soviet Afghan war. Fact: the USSR wanted to control all the nations on its borders. For centuries, Afghanistan has been invaded by the Persians, Alexander the Great, Arabs, Mongols, and the British. Stop blaming the US for all the world's problems.
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That proves my point. More destruction now than in 1989.
Well this is a batshit crazy take.