Most people would agree that it is furia since they have two majors, invite, reload (though some people consider that a mickey mouse event), and SI finalist when they lost to g2. Now if M80 win in paris they’ll have two majors, invite, and even tho they didn’t win reload they would have an undefeated record in grand finals. I also genuinely believe they r favourites to win in paris they just looked so good in munich and i think they could become another dynasty.
Hot take op. Penta felt invincible during their era and their loses felt fluky for some (eg: Liquid winning Atlantic City) and W7M/Furia’s run was amazing to see even from afar. They displayed some of the best siege all around and great resilience throughout their toughest games. Also, since then, they have felt like the team to beat on every tournament they’ve been even at their lowest this last major where a lot of people didn’t want to play them at any stage. M80 IN MY OPINION doesn’t have that same aura. Sure they could win invite in a dominant fashion but they never felt like the best team in siege when they win unlike those other teams. M80 has the tools to propel them to greatness this coming invi.
ENOUGH OF THE PLUMMERS ERA GAP IN THIS CONV. Fett and Mint even said it. W7M, M80 and Falcons consistency or achievements are comparable to what penta g3 achieved in the past. THIS IS HOW IT'S FINE IJ EVERY OTHER SPORTS, like old footballer in Italy scored much more goal, or Pele haf a different kind of opponents than Messi etc
Yeah unlike you, people can actually form their own opinions and don't need a well known person in the scene to speak for them. Comparing m80 and falcon's achievements to those of Penta/g2 is stupid and I'd like to see the clip of them making that claim as well.
i said w7m as well, who fett holds as goat (in latest video as well), the clip i mentioned were all about that time being much different and calling it "PLUMMERS era" (both fett's, Mint's and Six on six's video).
Also, i don't understand why u implied i didn't form my opinion valuing experts. you talk like i didn't, either because my is similar to 2 ex coaches', or because i quoted them. Either way your opinion must be better or original ...
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i wasn't taking about the game states as in the interactions and power level of operators, but the ecosystem's tactics and talent level
i misunderstood your comment
I think from beastcoast and Unwanted miracle run before M80 as well, Hotancold has definitely cemented himself as one of the absolute greats of this Esport. Were he to win again he would be a top 3 IGL imo.
100% agree. I think he’s easily top 5 right now
M80 would be firmly in the third spot behind Penta and Furia.
They wouldn't even be up for debate in the top two though.
Unless M80 went on to win another Major and maybe EWC? Cause Furia won 2 majors and a SI, M80 needs just that one SI win and they’ll be on par with Furia
Achievement wise yes but what makes furia so impressive is that they did it B2B THE GRAND SLAM where as M80 won’t have that achievement
They are in the conversation but in my eyes I don’t think M80 have that feeling around them that they are the best.
I always know they’re a good team but Furia has something different about that group of players.
Not sure if the consensus is that Furia is the best team ever, Penta/G2 still have them beat imo with as many major titles (I'm among the group that doesn't value Reload like a true major) including back to back SI wins, but M80 winning SI would go a long way to putting them in that conversation, it would definitely place them firmly in the top 3 with the aforementioned teams imo
I still say furia even if they win, furias just felt different
this
nah because think about it, they would have beaten Falcons twice. furia never played a team that played in the grand finals more than once. if m80 win then they would have beaten the greatest team to never win to do it
How can you possibly think falcons is the greatest to ever do it? That makes no sense.
ig the people claiming furia is the greatest haven't been around during prime penta/g2. there is no room for discussion.
m80 take 3rd spot if they win SI, that's it.
I was around during prime Penta/G2 and it is obviously a discussion. That W7M (now Furia) roster had without a doubt the most dominant year of any team ever, including prime G2, and accomplishment-wise there isn't a ton separating them. Personally I still have Penta/G2 at 1 because I value the second SI win over the major but someone could easily make the argument that Furia continues to be one of the best teams itw while G2 fell off astronomically post Raleigh. Let's not forget that 3/5 of that all time G2 roster had to be directly invited to SI 2020 by Ubisoft after failing to qualify through any means that year, something Furia has never had to do
There were tournaments during prime penta / G2 where it felt like there was no point in playing the tournament, or at least it was like prime Tiger where it was penta/G2 vs the field. That’s the difference for me
Fair and like I said I personally believe that G2 is still the best team ever, I just think Furia is good enough to warrant a discussion, even if imo it's one they lose
pls take a look at the penta/g2 liquipedia results page. for a duration of 3 years it is mostly 1st places and the others are mostly 2nds and 3rds. and those are actual tournaments, most of them international.
if you compare that to the w7m/furia liquipedia page the difference is obvious. less 1st places and more of them are at less relevant and regional competitions. and it's also not as if they steamroll the tournaments they win. SI 24 for example, they dropped maps, lost to wolves and only won the final bc faze choked, they weren't the best team at that tournament.
W7m is more impressive because they're doing it in a far more difficult era of the game. There was very little competition for g2/penta when they were dominating
This argument never really made sense to me for the Seige community like dont get me wrong at the end of the day its an opinion thing.
But compare it to the chess community where you have the conversation of Magnus vs Kasparov where clearly Magnus is at the top of the chess world even dominated by computers and courses , the question of goat between the two is still a conversation. People will still look at Kasparovs dominance and say it was a much longer and starker period that Magnus has to catch up to. Many people will still say Kasparov may be the goat (for now). Even now some of the people old penta/G2 were playing are still top players today (VP top 4 EWC/ Shaiko / Canadian). Like at the end of the day they were still at the top of the competition when it was the pinnacle for THEM and it was more dominant and scary. Granted its still opinions though.
The difference between the magnus/kasparov argument and this one is that chess didn't progress nearly as much from the kasparov era to now, as siege has progressed from the pentaG2 era to now. This is because chess has existed for about 1500 years now. You wouldn't watch a chess match from the kasparov era and go "wow this is really dated and unimpressive", in the same way that you would watch penta vs EG 2018.
I think you've missed the point, relative to their era G2 was more dominant than w7m. This is a conversation about who the greatest team ever is, by your logic the answer would have to be the most recent winner because of the rate at which Siege progresses, making M80 the best team, since they've now won in the most developed era of the game. Magnus is considered the greatest not because of what era he is in, but because he had demonstrated a level of dominance that no player except for Kasparov has been able to match, and due to his versatility across multiple formats.
This is the equivalent of the "we done with the '90s" movement in basketball: discrediting the best of an era because of a later level of play that hadn't come to exist yet solely because of time
You said I missed the point then proceeded to reiterate my exact point. Relative to their era g2 was more dominant, but their era was not nearly as competitive. There were only about 2 or 3 teams going into every event that you knew could or would possibly win. That isn't the case now. Also no, that logic you tried to apply doesn't work because an era of siege doesn't just last for a singular tournament. Whatever team won the last international tournament is the current best team (unless the top teams all somehow didn't attend that tournament). So yes, m80 is infact the best team in the world right now, but not the greatest unless they win more.
These things are not the same as siege or even comparable so trying to use chess (or basketball) as a supporting argument doesn't really even work. If you start throwing random other games into the mix, anyone can just throw in some other random game to make their point as well. Since we're using basketball comparisons, g2 dominated what was essentially the g-league while w7m have dominated in the nba.
I'm not sure where you're getting the idea I'm reiterating your point, the fact that players in 2018 were not as good as players in 2023 is not a valid argument to say that G2 isn't greater than w7m. Teams can only play against the competition of their era, and the reality is that G2 has both more success and a longer period of sustained success than w7m has.
It's interesting you talk about M80 needing to win more, because it reveals that, once again like the basketball fans I mentioned, you have designated an arbitrary point in time as the cutoff for what is "good" Siege and discredited anything before that on the grounds that it is "too unskilled". My point about M80 is that I could simply extend your own logic to say that anything pre Munich is "too unskilled" and proclaim them the greatest because they are the most successful team after that point. The argument for needing to win more means nothing because you're arguing that a team that won less should be valued higher than a team that won more based entirely off of when they won.
Also your NBA to G-League analogy doesn't work because the G-League coexists with the NBA simultaneously while being an objectively inferior league, it is the equivalent of T2 in Siege. G2 wasn't winning in T2 back in 2018 while w7m was winning in T1, they were both playing at the highest level of competition, the only difference was that, like in chess, basketball, or any sport, players improve as time passes, and as I've stated before, that doesn't make G2 less valid when discussing the greatest team of all time
The nba to g-league analogy does work because the siege that g2 was playing and the teams that they played against, would be the equivalent of the g-league when compared to what siege is today. To put this very simply, they would get utterly stomped by like the top 10 teams right now and it would not be close, the same way a g-league team would get stomped by an nba team. But ultimately I'm uninterested in using other random sports for this topic anyway, I only did so because of your insistence on doing so. If g2 dominated in an era with 3 good teams, in matches that were much less complex and mechanically skilled than the matches of today, that is less impressive than w7m dominating in an era with far more good teams and many highly skilled ones. What is hard to understand about this? Sure, they could only beat the opponents that were available to them at the time but that's simply how esports works; the game changes, teams get better, individual players get better, early accomplishments hold less weight than modern ones. There's no chance you think continuum's SI win holds the same weight as an SI win would today, right? Ponder that for a second and unless in bad faith, your answer will be "obviously it does not".
Chess has absolutely progressed since the introduction of computers and internet, competition IS a lot stronger when everyone and their mother has access to tools, courses, computers, analyzation, and content, this was not readily available to the average person back then but has absolutely blown up its popularity. Again I would emphasize that the argument between Kasparov and Magnus people highlight that Kasparov was #1 and dominant for a much longer period of time much like G2/penta. And like I said the people competing then still compete now in r6.
Some of the PEOPLE competing then still compete now. Individual players are not teams so this point is utterly irrelevant. These players have obviously also adapted to the higher level siege that gets played now and in shaiiko's case, he was always just significantly ahead of everyone else. So much so that he basically ended up getting banned for it.
As someone who watched Pro League at this time I was almost certain that I didn't need to do this to remember what they had accomplished, but I did anyways and as I suspected, I remember just fine what Penta/G2 won: multiple PL finals, one major, and two hammers. I've already said I value Penta/G2's accomplishments over w7m/Furia's, but it's asinine to suggest that no discussion needs to be had when the alternative to G2 is the team with the most dominant year-run of anybody ever including G2 themselves
The most dominant year-run people like to mention when talking about W7M/Furia is a made up metric, it is completely irrelevant to the question of who is the greatest of all time. The time span of one year isn't in any way special. W7M had their achievemnts in one year and suddenly all teams need to be measured against this arbitrary criterion?
Additionally, it's not only about winning tournaments, it's about dominating. S1mple was unquestionably the goat of CS even before he won a single Major trophy. W7M wasn't dominating. They happened to come out on top 3 times but it could just as easily have been twice or once (Copenhagen was decisive). Going into these tournaments they were favourites, yes, but never were they the favourites. There were always other teams which could have won just as well.
For the sake of the discussion I will respond to this most dominant year-run argument anyway:
The Penta/G2 streak consists of: PL Y2S1, PL Y2S2, SI 18, 2nd at PL S7, Paris Major, PL S8, Dreamhack 2018, SI 19, 2nd at Raleigh Major.
If you pick the most dominant consecutive 12 within these 27 months you get:
2018-02 to 2019-02; SI 18, 2nd at PL S7, Paris Major, PL S8, Dreamhack 2018, SI 19. That's 2 hammers, 2 other S-tier events, a 2nd place at an S-tier event and a Minor. And they actually dominated these tournaments. They were the absolute favourites going into all of them. How does the W7M run compare to that?
Definitely not. Honestly for me it’s not even like a specific thing they need to do, G2/Penta and W7M just had that “it” factor where it was scary to face them no matter who you were. I don’t think anyone feels even close to that way about M80, they’ve never really been a heavy favorite to win anything like the other teams were
Is there even a conversation? It’s Furia by far in my eyes.
Bros got 20/20 vision
Agreed, but it Falcons can stop choking they can still become that team as well.
And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a bike
But seriously Falcons being so close this many times and yet never getting over the line with the exception of Jonkoping might be the biggest tragedy we've seen in R6
newgens don’t know the tragedy of darth troy thanks to falcons it’s simply a story r/r6proleague would not tell you
Darth Troy became so powerful... The only thing he was afraid of was losing the fight on white stairs, which eventually of course he did
I feel bad to this day for Yung, nvK and Necrox, those boys were shooting and just ran into the wall of EU over and over again
People give them a lot of shit but
FaZe: top 4 in Copenhagen and Atlanta, second at SI24, top 4 in Montreal
BDS: top 2 in Manchester and Montreal, second at SI25, top 2 in Munich
Falcons are going through a slightly improved version of FaZe’s last two years where they were perpetually stuck being kingmakers. If anything, FaZe’s entire run before SI25 was way more tragic because they went out earlier and to underdog teams.
I understand the argument, but I also feel ultimately FaZe is less tragic because they eventually won SI, something Falcons have yet to do, however we're currently on a streak of the previous year's runner up winning SI so maybe we'll see a Falcons triumph, in which case the majority of the fanbase will completely forget all the second place finishes and praise Falcons as one of the best ever, as they did with FaZe post SI '24
Fr, making 6 finals in 2 yrs is insane. The run up to the final was a Walk in the park for them Most times too. They only need to figure out how to get across the finish line this time
Genuinely falcons are the most consistent and best team itw. Maybe not at the moment but their consistency is insane, teams would have fallen way off in their shoes
sorry but until they match Penta/G2 it’s gonna be that Penta/G2 squad from hell
Nah the 2x major winning roster will still be called a fluke even if they another major or win SI. Because ppl hate to see na win and therefore will cope
Zzzzzzz falcons merchants yet to beat a real team in finals
They'd be second to furia. Penta were playing plumbers.
The perfect record in GF is kinda silly. They lost in NA before and somehow that’s worse than making it all the way to GF beating the best teams in the world?
Jordan fans really fucked every goat debate lmao
if they get one more im repping gunnar as the best NA player of all time
If m80 win invite then they still wouldn't have better achievements than furia so I don't get how you could argue such a thing.
I guess from achievements alone this is not a crazy argument. There will never be a team that was as feared/expected to win as Penta/G2 though. They were just so far above their competition in a way that is no longer possible. No one is afraid of playing M80 (if we’re being honest no one was afraid to play W7M/Furia either).
Too much parity for any team to challenge these things, I think. If some organization happened to pick up five of the best 10-15 players and they happened to gel together really well, maybe it could happen but what are the odds of that? Zero? W7M/Furia was close to that and there was still never an expectation they’d win every game.
M80/beastcoast are a bds/falcons merchant and I will never respect them until they beat another team