This subreddit is for sharing propaganda to view with objectivity. It is absolutely not for perpetuating the message of the propaganda. Here we should be conscientious and wary of manipulation/distortion/oversimplification (which the above likely has), not duped by it. "Don't be a sucker."
Stay on topic -- there are hundreds of other subreddits that are expressly dedicated to rehashing tired political arguments. No partisan bickering. No soapboxing. Take a chill pill. "Don't argue."
It did, but it also acted as an extension of containment and secured the US's position of intimidation over the USSR at the time. The Space Race was the subplot of the Berlin Problem, not a spinoff.
When I visited Berlin, Checkpoint Charlie looked identical to that photo (the guard station, not the surrounding tanks). That was over a decade ago, but I'd be surprised to hear it changed. Interesting to see.
It was, as every good Communist knows, built as a bulwark against fascist invasion.
(Not even a joke, unfortunately: it was literally referred to in East Germany as the Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart (German: Antifaschistischer Schutzwall)).
Many would be surprised by this. We tend to view history and past events as being straightforward and linear compared the present.
In reality though, the past had many of the hallmarks of the present: Including nothing being certain until it happens and everyone talking out their ass, thinking they know everything.
People also forget that JFK was a more divisive figure pre-assassination (the 1960 election was among the closest in American history.)
L. The trash is international relations that got stonewalled for years based on the temperment of the parties involved, potentially taking decades to resolve; whereas going to the moon was an indisputibal national goal unbeholden to any outside influence.
the US chose to focus on Giant Dirt Rock™️instead of its own people
now what we are left with is a useless space agency who does nothing but eat millions and stare at specks of other Giant Dirt Rock™️whilst Social Security and Medicare are being blown up for no reason besides to help the bourgeoisie get richer
I don't think the mass murder of civilians in Vietnam is the moon landing's fault, those seem unrelated. Other than I guess the money that went to the Apollo program could have gone to bombs and napalm instead.
I wish the US had spent less time worrying about Vietnam, not more. Could have just never invaded and spent more resources focusing on things like scientific research instead. Applying more resources to the war in Vietnam would mean a higher death toll, not a lower one.
I just think you're totally wrong to frame that as an argument against scientific projects like the moon landing.
If they had spent less time and resources focusing on Vietnam, fewer people would have died. Maybe they could have spent that effort on space exploration instead, who knows
You can have both things at once though? Society exists exactly so humans can effectively make all actions that are demanded by the complexity of our needs and endeavours, not just one at a time.
Also... this seems, like, a very bleak view of the world? Don't get me wrong, i absolutely understand how urgent and pressing things like taxation for the rich and ending wars are, but having a society exclusively focused on solving problems after problems seems a terrible existence. Even if every single person on Earth had a collective moral-switch flip and tried to work earnestly for the good of the planet, it would take years of work and reconstruction to heal the wounds humankind has inflicted upon the earth through all it's history. Humans also need to fulfill spiritual, psychological needs of wonder in this meantime, that are just as important as physical needs like hunger and safety. And exploring the world and the universe seems like a worthwhile task to be achieved together with the work at home to fulfill our problems.
Yeah I guess using free healthcare as an argument against NASA makes a little bit more sense than trying to use Vietnam. But even taxing the rich was way less of a problem back then, they didn't really stop having to pay their taxes until Reagan.
I just don't think it's a very strong argument against exploring space. Of all the horrible violent things the US government was spending money on, why pick this one? Cancelling the moon landing would have been completely useless for the goal of universal health care. And science is important, I think it's great that the US government used to spend money on it. I hope they go back to doing that in the future.
i mean trying to figure out how to end the war as quickly as possible
... There was nothing to figure out. Kennedy knew the war was unwinnable. If anything the quickest way to end the shit would have been to fire McNamara and let it end the same way it did, except years earlier
It was never about us. Aside from proving a point, it was about military dominance. The space race produced GPS and satellite imagery among other things, like "rods from God". The moon landing was a cultural achievement, but it was far from the only objective.
we would have created those technologies at a later point anyway, in my opinion, if the government focused on genuinely fixing the issues that still affect us to this day instead of space exploration, we would be much better off
yeah, sure, maybe we would still be in the 2000s or the 90s, but free healthcare and direct democracy is far better than 5G internet
I think that's a very cynical view of human scientific accomplishment. Its in our nature to explore and be curious, we wouldn't have come this far without that.
Regardless , the moon landing didn't affect the Vietnam war, the US army would have been killing people regardless if there weren't people on the moon. It's an unrelated issue.
The poverty is a fair point,I guess. But the US was technically wealthy enough to keep it's citizens mostly out of poverty, even with NASA's budget, that they didn't is again not the moonlandings fault but a broader goverment system issue.
Scientific exploration of this kind has also proven to make scientific leaps and without these missions we might never gotten many technologies that we take granted. Like extremely efficient rockets that bring satellites into space that many systems rely on.
I shall also remind you that the moonlanding was broadly popular with taxpayers , even if it didn't have an immediate active change in most people's lives.
I shall also remind you that the moonlanding was broadly popular with taxpayers , even if it didn't have an immediate active change in most people's lives.
1960s taxpayers are not permitted to decide what the government ought to do with their dollars. That's the prerogative of a myopic backseat driver 60 years later.
Ypu are talking about it like if its a choice between 1 or the other, the 12% of americans in poverty, would be in poverty wether or not the US decided to go to the moon
You do realize that LBJs great society programs were passed at the same time right? Like literally while we were going to the moon we were also taking some of the biggest steps we had ever taken to combat poverty and other societal programs.
And then we stopped going to the moon and we largely stopped expanding those other efforts too.
there's a reason why the government distracted us with the Space Race and the spooky Commies in the sky
if it wasn't space, it would probably be the sea or the center of the Earth
but it still doesn't change my point that the government should have focused on improving the lives of Americans instead of planting a flag on a giant mound of dirt in the sky
This is an extremely closed-minded view. It is one potentially borne of intelligence tainted by ignorance. Hopefully you can learn why it mattered so much. You are unaware that different scientific pursuits do not exist in an isolation. All of science is related. For example, going to the moon led to the development of each of these products:
• Wireless headphones;
• Wireless vacuum cleaners;
• Shock absorbers used on modern bridges;
• Fireproof materials used by firefighters;
• Vacuum-sealed food;
• Freeze-dried food;
• Insulin pumps;
• Shock-absorbing shoes;
• Thermal blankets;
• Retractable roofs in stadiums;
• Vibration-sensing detectors;
• Programmable pacemakers;
• Better solar panels;
• Cooling technology used by NASCAR drivers, armored vehicles, firefighters, and others;
This subreddit is for sharing propaganda to view with objectivity. It is absolutely not for perpetuating the message of the propaganda. Here we should be conscientious and wary of manipulation/distortion/oversimplification (which the above likely has), not duped by it. "Don't be a sucker."
Stay on topic -- there are hundreds of other subreddits that are expressly dedicated to rehashing tired political arguments. No partisan bickering. No soapboxing. Take a chill pill. "Don't argue."
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
"Everything is a distraction" mentality isnt new huh? Thats depressing
There's nothing new under the sun
Or the moon
Or the rock
Or the Johnson
Wait till you learn about the Maine and the Spanish American War. People think fake news is a new thing
Thankfully i had a cool history teacher so I learned that back in 9th grade. Yellow journalism never goes away,just evolves
As old as man itself at least. But the hope is that through recognizing patterns in history we can course correct.
The space race only got so much funding because of the propaganda value. But cmon, its annoying when people always go "its a distraction!".
And it worked beyond his wildest dreams, didn't it?
It did, but it also acted as an extension of containment and secured the US's position of intimidation over the USSR at the time. The Space Race was the subplot of the Berlin Problem, not a spinoff.
Honestly they wouldn't stop until they got a win, if the soviets managed to land first, they would have said Mars or smth
The Soviets landed a ship on Venus after we went to the moon.
The Venera program started much before the moon landing, the soviets mostly focused on low orbit since it was the more sensate move
Typical cynicism L.
Hmm. What was "the Berlin problem"?
Hard to tell, there were a few, given its from 1962, and the Berlin wall was built in 1961, maybe that?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Crisis_of_1961
When I visited Berlin, Checkpoint Charlie looked identical to that photo (the guard station, not the surrounding tanks). That was over a decade ago, but I'd be surprised to hear it changed. Interesting to see.
The Berlin Wall was built by communists in 1961 to prevent people from escaping the socialist paradise for the "rotten" West.
Surely you jest.
It was, as every good Communist knows, built as a bulwark against fascist invasion.
(Not even a joke, unfortunately: it was literally referred to in East Germany as the Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart (German: Antifaschistischer Schutzwall)).
Yep. The original Antifa hard at work fighting "fascists."
The original Antifa were the ones killing the actual fascists of Nazi Germany, hope this helps.
The original Antifa - the violent wing of the communist KPD - worked hand in hand with Nazis to overthrow a liberal democratically elected government.
They only changed their tune after the leopards ate their face and the Nazi government turned on them after the fall of the Weimar Republic.
Hope this helps, SovietPropagandist.
Antifa is anyone that is opposed to fascism and fights against it, hth
Next you'll tell us Nazis are socialists working for the common good.
Keep up the great work, SovietPropagandist. Maybe put up some posters for the sub to enjoy. hth
[removed]
I'm sorry that you find historical facts and the truth offensive.
Do you realize what sub you're in?
Top related comment literally points out the ironic origin and usages of Antifa:
This comment has been removed for violating rule Rule 4.
Berlin
Was ist Berlin?
That's right for 200. You have control of the board.
Many would be surprised by this. We tend to view history and past events as being straightforward and linear compared the present.
In reality though, the past had many of the hallmarks of the present: Including nothing being certain until it happens and everyone talking out their ass, thinking they know everything.
People also forget that JFK was a more divisive figure pre-assassination (the 1960 election was among the closest in American history.)
Nothing new under the sun.
Or, you know, the moon
Quite so.
One of these days, Alice!!
Sure we made history that mankind will forever remember, but whuddubout this other much less significant political issue?
Good thing naysayers apparently don't end up in history books
I’d argue almost starting nuclear war and causing a massive national embarrassment in the form of the Bay of pigs is a pretty significant issue.
Sure.
And achieving one of the most significant milestones in humanity history is an even more significant issue.
All it took was Kennedy nearly starting a nuclear war
Aged like fine milk
L. The trash is international relations that got stonewalled for years based on the temperment of the parties involved, potentially taking decades to resolve; whereas going to the moon was an indisputibal national goal unbeholden to any outside influence.
I mean, he did specifically mention "the other things."
It was still pretty cool tho. Should've never stopped.
kinda agree with this one
YEAH WE SHOULD FOCUS ON BLOCKADING A TINY ISLAND INSTEAD OF THE GREATEST ACHIEVEMENT OF MANKIND YET!!!
What the fuck were they smoking
I think people really forget how useless the moon landing was
We spent millions to send 3 guys to go kick around dirt for an hour
12% of Americans were in poverty by 1969
14% of those in poverty were children
Americans were still dying en masse in Vietnam
41,000 Vietnamese civilians died in 1969
It’s so not an either/or framework at all. The US could afford both, but like today, chose to ignore properly funded socio-economic safety nets.
thats my point
the US chose to focus on Giant Dirt Rock™️instead of its own people
now what we are left with is a useless space agency who does nothing but eat millions and stare at specks of other Giant Dirt Rock™️whilst Social Security and Medicare are being blown up for no reason besides to help the bourgeoisie get richer
Are you naive enough to belive that the american bourgeoisie would have spent that money on helping its people instead?
I don't think the mass murder of civilians in Vietnam is the moon landing's fault, those seem unrelated. Other than I guess the money that went to the Apollo program could have gone to bombs and napalm instead.
i clarified my point in other comments, what i mean is that the United States had much greater issues to worry about besides the moon landing
so all the time preparing for the launch could have instead been spent on leaving Vietnam
I wish the US had spent less time worrying about Vietnam, not more. Could have just never invaded and spent more resources focusing on things like scientific research instead. Applying more resources to the war in Vietnam would mean a higher death toll, not a lower one.
you and i are saying the same thing lol
when i say "focus more on Vietnam", i don't mean "bomb Vietnam more", i mean trying to figure out how to end the war as quickly as possible
I just think you're totally wrong to frame that as an argument against scientific projects like the moon landing.
If they had spent less time and resources focusing on Vietnam, fewer people would have died. Maybe they could have spent that effort on space exploration instead, who knows
or that time could have been spent trying to establish genuine free healthcare and taxing the rich
granted, Nixon's government would have never touched anything like that because of the fear of a Commie America
but it still doesn't change that there were far more pressing issues than space
edit: said Kennedy, not Nixon
You can have both things at once though? Society exists exactly so humans can effectively make all actions that are demanded by the complexity of our needs and endeavours, not just one at a time.
Also... this seems, like, a very bleak view of the world? Don't get me wrong, i absolutely understand how urgent and pressing things like taxation for the rich and ending wars are, but having a society exclusively focused on solving problems after problems seems a terrible existence. Even if every single person on Earth had a collective moral-switch flip and tried to work earnestly for the good of the planet, it would take years of work and reconstruction to heal the wounds humankind has inflicted upon the earth through all it's history. Humans also need to fulfill spiritual, psychological needs of wonder in this meantime, that are just as important as physical needs like hunger and safety. And exploring the world and the universe seems like a worthwhile task to be achieved together with the work at home to fulfill our problems.
Yeah I guess using free healthcare as an argument against NASA makes a little bit more sense than trying to use Vietnam. But even taxing the rich was way less of a problem back then, they didn't really stop having to pay their taxes until Reagan.
I just don't think it's a very strong argument against exploring space. Of all the horrible violent things the US government was spending money on, why pick this one? Cancelling the moon landing would have been completely useless for the goal of universal health care. And science is important, I think it's great that the US government used to spend money on it. I hope they go back to doing that in the future.
... There was nothing to figure out. Kennedy knew the war was unwinnable. If anything the quickest way to end the shit would have been to fire McNamara and let it end the same way it did, except years earlier
You’re still treating it like an either-or situation, like we don’t take care of poor people because of the Apollo program.
NASA does incredible work for the public and humanity as a whole. And you seem to have a terrible understanding of what it is they do.
It was never about us. Aside from proving a point, it was about military dominance. The space race produced GPS and satellite imagery among other things, like "rods from God". The moon landing was a cultural achievement, but it was far from the only objective.
Though the rest is true, "rods from god" were never a thing. Nukes and GPS-guided munitions fill any niche they do for a lower price.
And you are completely ignoring the technological and scientific advancements that came as a direct result of NASA.
we would have created those technologies at a later point anyway, in my opinion, if the government focused on genuinely fixing the issues that still affect us to this day instead of space exploration, we would be much better off
yeah, sure, maybe we would still be in the 2000s or the 90s, but free healthcare and direct democracy is far better than 5G internet
"Instead of getting a utopia we chose to go to the moon. smh"
lol, ok.
Somehow, if "we" had just avoided
sinninggoing to the Moon and spent money on REAL things, society would be much different today!Those darn astronauts must've brought back bad luck, or something like that.
I think that's a very cynical view of human scientific accomplishment. Its in our nature to explore and be curious, we wouldn't have come this far without that.
Regardless , the moon landing didn't affect the Vietnam war, the US army would have been killing people regardless if there weren't people on the moon. It's an unrelated issue.
The poverty is a fair point,I guess. But the US was technically wealthy enough to keep it's citizens mostly out of poverty, even with NASA's budget, that they didn't is again not the moonlandings fault but a broader goverment system issue.
Scientific exploration of this kind has also proven to make scientific leaps and without these missions we might never gotten many technologies that we take granted. Like extremely efficient rockets that bring satellites into space that many systems rely on.
I shall also remind you that the moonlanding was broadly popular with taxpayers , even if it didn't have an immediate active change in most people's lives.
1960s taxpayers are not permitted to decide what the government ought to do with their dollars. That's the prerogative of a myopic backseat driver 60 years later.
Have you considered that flying to the moon is rad as hell?
Ypu are talking about it like if its a choice between 1 or the other, the 12% of americans in poverty, would be in poverty wether or not the US decided to go to the moon
my point was that the US shouldn't have prioritized the moon landing
so much of the government was dead set on going to the moon, blatantly ignoring the issues plaguing the United States
we could have still sent men to the moon, but it should have been the very last thing we cared about
You do realize that LBJs great society programs were passed at the same time right? Like literally while we were going to the moon we were also taking some of the biggest steps we had ever taken to combat poverty and other societal programs.
And then we stopped going to the moon and we largely stopped expanding those other efforts too.
Do you think the government would have done those things if we hadn't gone to the moon
Just a little more austerity, bro, that's all we need to finally prioritize universal welfare.
absolutely not
there's a reason why the government distracted us with the Space Race and the spooky Commies in the sky
if it wasn't space, it would probably be the sea or the center of the Earth
but it still doesn't change my point that the government should have focused on improving the lives of Americans instead of planting a flag on a giant mound of dirt in the sky
With this kind of shitass attitude we never would've left Earth
This is an extremely closed-minded view. It is one potentially borne of intelligence tainted by ignorance. Hopefully you can learn why it mattered so much. You are unaware that different scientific pursuits do not exist in an isolation. All of science is related. For example, going to the moon led to the development of each of these products:
• Wireless headphones;
• Wireless vacuum cleaners;
• Shock absorbers used on modern bridges;
• Fireproof materials used by firefighters;
• Vacuum-sealed food;
• Freeze-dried food;
• Insulin pumps;
• Shock-absorbing shoes;
• Thermal blankets;
• Retractable roofs in stadiums;
• Vibration-sensing detectors;
• Programmable pacemakers;
• Better solar panels;
• Cooling technology used by NASCAR drivers, armored vehicles, firefighters, and others;
• Programmable medication systems;
according to https://littleastronomy.com/why-apollo-11-was-important/.
This is in addition to nourishing the souls of the planetful of people wanting to see this achieved.
Chudass
We did it to advance science (and as a power play, I am aware, but space is cool and where our future lies)
I think we should do more useless shit in space! It would be based!