I'm a fan of progression fantasy, whether it's in book format, anime, Manga etc etc. But one thing I've noticed is that the novels that generally fall under the progression fantasy genre as it is, they're a bit...badly written?
I'm no Stephen King, but some of the books Ive read feel less than great. Whether it's the tone or just the general feel of the writing, it varies but its not often great. Mark of the Fool is a good example. Great idea, but the writing? Good god. A Queen - We Are The Champions reference? No thanks.
Now I've read Cradle, Bastion, Mother's Learning Super Powered and Art of the Adept. I'd consider those written solidly, if not good, Progression Fantasy novels, at least for me and I'd love it if anyone had any recommendations in that vein.
Anything that reads like Mage Errant or Mark of the Fool I don't think is my bag.
FOLLOW UP REQUEST: Any traditional books that feel like they could be progression fantasy?
Personally, I believe it's Virtuous Sons. The way the author handles everything from the world building, character dynamics to the power system and prose. It's just beautiful.
It's so good it actually inspired me to trying writing my own novel which is still in early planning. But the only reason I want to write it in the first place is to make others feel the same way Virtuous Sons made me feel.
I found the present tense a bit weird, it seemed to take me out of the story a bit though i remember thinking the prose wasn't bad. And the familiary between characters of wildly different social status kind of weakened the immersion in the greek inspired worldbuilding.
Maybe i just started it on a bad day. I should give it another try.
Most of VS is written in past tense, only some chapters are different.
Super Supportive has amazing writing. Now if you want the plot to move at a rapid pace, that's not where it shines...
super supportive is amazing until Alden goes to super high school, which is about chapter 80 or so. After that nothing happens, 200 chapters of nada. no major rabbit Skill upgrades, nothing with the plot (does super supportive even have a plot at this point?), nothing with his Magic develops in any meaningful way either. There’s no meaningful bad guys he has to contend with, no tension anywhere to be found. Why people still support this series is beyond me. Especially when you can compare the epic Moon Thegund arc with any of the slop that’s come after.
I think it's the best written, hands down. Not sure it counts as a progression fantasy though.
I'm a big fan of David Niemitz's Guild Mage.
It's very decent, only a couple hiccups in my opinion. The most glaring issue and what took me out of it a little was how the Bat Lady was written in to the story, I felt the way she went from "I barely know the MC" to "I'm the MC's personal maid, I know my lady better than most" waaay too quick.
Personally, I think it's almost perfect. It feels as if the current iteration of the story was the pre-final draft, needing only a few changes in developments and characters to truly be a complete success, in my humble opinion.
Easy 9/10 for the most part, especially the beginning, then 7/10 at times. Read about a hundred chapters or so.
It's also stubbed.
I tend to find Phil Tucker and Sarah Lin's works to be much stronger on the prose side of things than most progression fantasy, particularly for the Immortal Great Souls series by Tucker and The Brightest Shadow by Sarah Lin.
Seconding the Brightest Shadow (only one I've read, can't speak to the other rec)
You have read the best written works in the category unfortunately. Litrpg and progression fantasy has 2 things going against it in the writting quality aspect
1) the vast vast vast vast majority are self published with no editor. They are works of passion and not most people’s main category of money generation. They are often amateur and early works. The tend to be rough arround the edges at best and horrible translations at worst.
2) most are web novel based where you are heavily incentivized to turn out a released chapter a day. This leads to meandering plots, plot holes, lost threads and filler. When they are eventually made into books after web success this really shows.
Traditional books that might scratch that itch if you haven’t read them already that are extremly well written. Name of the wind by Rothfuss (ignore people bemoaning book two and marry sue plot it’s true but still worth reading especially if you like this genere), lies of Locke lamora by Scott lynch and anything Sanderson has written.
Beware of Chicken is definitely A or A+ writing, it just depends on if you are interested in the style. I would also suggest Path of Ascension which is a decent B+ maybe rounded up to A- depending on personal preference.
I am with on the poorly written stories. I can put up with a decent amount of jank if the story still engages me, like Primal Hunter which is definitely not top tier writing but I still enjoy it. But some stuff is just too much. Mark of the Fool made me drop it in the middle of the first book just because it was painful to read.
Probably something by Sarah Lin, Phil Tucker, or John Bierce. Though, Benedict Jacka's An Inheritance of Magic also hits that trad publishing vibe, if you are more into that particular structure. Obviously Stormlight Archive is up there.
OP doesn't seem to be a fan of bastion or mage errant. lol But i was thinking the same
I’ll nominate Pale by Wildbow as my overall #1 best Progression Fantasy. The Apex of my Apex tier in my personal tier list
I could write an entire dissertation about the things that it does well
It's my overall best fantasy, period.
It's full of moments of pure beauty, the absolute best magic system and it's a full, complete story that's part of a larger universe.
How I wish it had lasted forever, I'm waiting for the sequel.
Other than that, I agree Virtuous Sons is probably the best, only book in the genre that made me feel like reading Pale.
Give me the 30sec elevator pitch for Wildbow and what makes it so good
I found Return of Runebound Professor and Practical Guide to Evil (novel version) to have a quality indistinguishable from other published novels. Both are stories I absolutely love.
Shadow Slave is dear to my heart, and I didn't find it too poorly written, but I also give it more leeway than other series due to how much I appreciate The Vibes.
I'm also in the camp that Stormlight Archive is progression fantasy (progression has milestones with clearly defined increases in power, tied to character arcs, and is a major element of the story), though that's an incredibly unpopular take in this sub.
It seems like this sub really doesnt like traditionally published novels. I'll look into Stormlught Archive, ive been meaning to read it anyway. And practical guide to evil
I'm going to be real based on what you have mentioned in your post you're not really going to find stuff that's really well written. To be honest none of the authors have the cleanest writing style. Maybe it's all perspective cause I really like Phil Tucker's work but you don't seem to be as much of a fan of bastion. I would say if you're looking for better works, find the ones that were published not on royal road. Royal road is great, but if you have a higher standard, those usually are not it. Some I have enjoyed are
To Flail against Infinity. It's an interesting science fiction take on cultivation that I think is pretty good. Shadow Slave is good. The world building is really, really good, and the characters are likeable. That being said, the writing itself is a little weird with odd word choice. I tend to ignore it, but I think it's a translation. I really enjoyed the Iron Tyrant, that was really good.
But to be honest, I would say you might just have to lower your standards in terms of prose quality. I would say prog fantasy has some really well written characters, and some have some really strong worldbuilding. But you're probably looking for more traditional novels. I read a lot of prog fantasy, but some people only dip into it now and then as a guilty pleasure.
I really like Bastion and the rest of that series, so not sure why you'd think that. And I enjoyed Phil Tuckers Black Gate series too. That one has some progression elements, but not as much. But yes Royal Road books aren't really my wheelhouse. So onwards I'll look to see what other things we have
It's not that this genre is badly written, but that we're free to publish bad stuff.
Other genres are more stuck to traditional publishing, where many many many books never get the greenlight to be printed.
With progfan anybody can start throwing stuff on Royal Road, so we get great books but also the really questionable stuff.
Great progfan book is Legend of William Oh
Great traditional book with progression is Red Rising
Not that it's really important for this thread, but the part about "free to publish bad things" being unique to this genre isn't really true. In fact, it isn't even close to being the first genre to do this. Depending on your definition of "bad", the scope can go from 19th century to late 90s/early 2000s in which this trend existed in other genres, in particular pocket/weekend novels (again a wide umbrella) as they're called in my language. And if I'm being completely honest, 99.9% of the novels here have a similar prose to weekend novels as well.
For your follow up request I’d say The spellmonger. Written by terry mancour, it’s more traditional fantasy with wizards, knights, dragons and of course goblins. However the way the magic is done in the series always leads to advancement in the magic used and while there’s nothing like levels or skills it feels like a natural progression of strength. From the power the MC wields in book one compared to the most recent is exponential growth and it’s only going to be getting stronger
I’m tossing in Dungeon Lord by Huesca. I think it ranks up at the top in terms of writing quality. The last book was so good, especially in audio.
Agree with Sarah Lin, DDC, beware of chicken. 12 miles below, elydes, Arcane ascension, infinite worlds, bog standard Isekai also seem higher in terms or writing quality.
I really found Sky Pride by Warby Picus to be pleasant AFTER the first couple chapters where it's establishing the main character's unfortunate circumstances. Just know it moves on from the miserable circumstances pretty quickly. The character work is great, the prose is a step up from most progression fantasy without being purple. He's really good at thoughtful introspection that actually is meaningful, without falling into a pit of endless navel gazing (like what he did in his earlier story slumrat rising). The pacing starts heavy on slice of life then adds more and more action as the story goes on. The progression is meaningful and satisfying but on the slower side.
It has the single best power up moment I've read in progression fantasy. I won't spoil it but it's emotional and absolutely badass.
It is heavily slice of life and pretty obviously meant for a web novel kind of readership, but i agree with you. A tier characters, amazingly vivid prose even through all of the descriptions, i just can't get enough of it. I'm mad at myself for having discovered it this early. I wish i had started it in book format as the daily release schedule on RR kind of intensifies the slice of life feel a bit too much in some moments.
Yeah a really good novel, that one.
Yeah idk if I've ever read a webserial with actual good pacing. I think the format encourages bad pacing with how it's monetized.
I'd hate to call web serial pacing "bad" but it's certainly different than standard novels.
The real problem is not RR, its patreon...
I'm glad I didn't drop Sky Pride, because I really started enjoying it as I reached Book 2... but I get so confused when people praise it's prose. It just doesn't seem very good for me.
I like lots of things about it, but the prose isn't it for me.
Cradle, Codex Alera, Underkeeper, A Thousand Li, Dungeon Crawler Carl, Beware of Chicken, the Weirkey Chronicles, and anything by Maxime J Durand
Codex alera is good. Not really progresssion fantasy but I loved that series.
I'm not sure if you would qualify this as Fantasy, maybe more sci-fi?
Super Powereds was a fun one, although the writing is not the best in book one, the rest were great, IMO.
Tbh there's a lot of ways the genre diverges from traditional standards, ..and not all of them by accident.
For example a:
"Solitary Marty Stu who barely interacts with anyone but just goes around bean counting their builds and killing monsters"
is an abomination by traditional standards.
But clearly the fans here don't all abide by those standards!
With that caveat said, I do have a handful of questionable ideas on what may seem a little more respectable:
Firstly some stuff which is a bit seinen-ey, but has some unmistakable craftsmanship behind it imo:
Book of the dead (except the earliest initial setup which is very basic. And one outrageous side character of temporary prominence)
Godclads (big caveat: it's very edgy. This is (partially) entangled with some genuine moral & philosophical pretensions, but the edge doesn't go away.)
Dungeon crawler carl (no real caveat, -except there's a lot of brutal absurd comedy, like a hitchhikers guide to galaxy pastiche which takes the chaos 1/3rd seriously.)
Basic fun:
New life as a max level archmage (It's not as superficial as the title makes it sound, but it is moreso pleasant and archetypical than unpredictable or heart stopping)
Traditional character focus:
The Wandering Inn (I'm not sure about the writing tbh, but it seems to be a bit of a refuge for those who prefer traditional sympathetic character development, rather than [Delvers] punching tigers in the mouth with minmaxed strength bonuses)
Xianxia:
Sky Pride
Ave Xia Rem Y
These are well written imo, but then again I would have said cradle is outstanding, so I guess try and see.
And those are my ideas. Not sure if it's on target, but best of luck and hope you find something.
If you like Bastion (Immortal Great Souls) like I did/do check out the Throne Hunters Series by same author Phil Tucker!!
Okay, this will end up being a lot about personal taste, but for me, Hell Difficulty Tutorial is amazingly written! Specifically the characterizations the MC perspective and the world building with its amazing variety of creative use of tropes in a logical integration into how it all works.
That's fascinating. I couldn't get past like three chapters. The characterization and POV of the MC was really weird. He was way too competent, but like in a devoid of personality just competent way. But to each their own
Yeah too be honest, I've done a lot of work on myself to understand an avoidant attachment style from my childhood, so to me the mc is amazingly relatable and well written, but yes definitely respect that many or even most might find it a bit unrelatable or even unrealistic, like "who even thinks like that?" *raises hand *😅🤚
Zombie Knight Saga by George M. Frost.
I recently finished Book Of The Dead and felt it was well written.
The best written books in the genre are:
Lightbringer
Powder mage
The cosmere
Bastion
Codex Alera
cradle
red rising tho that’s barely prog fant
Edit: I guess also Name of the wind and Dawn of Wonder but both those of those are unlikely to be finished anytime soon
Okay weird downvotes here?
Most of those aren't PF. They have PF elements but are not written as PF. They're traditionally published fantasy novels.
No all of them are progression fantasy except maybe red rising.
The genre is not just “litRPG without numbers”
fantasy with progression vs progression fantasy there is a difference
(the only cosmetic i have read is the first mistborn trilogy and that is NOT pf, there is progression but the main focus of the story is the politics etc)
Yup, most Sanderson books aren't Progression Fantasy, only the Stormlight Archive is.
Mistborn, rithmatist and Elantris are as well.
Every fantasy novel is PF with that viewpoint.
No it’s really not. Frodo gets no stronger. King Arthur gets no stronger. Robin Hobb gets no stronger.
When this subreddit was made there was no debate that these titles are in genre.
Just because the litRPG audience has taken so much presence in this space that doesn’t mean the genre is narrowed. It has only widened.
The meaning of PF gets debated a lot, but IMO, there are two key elements that distinguish it. 1) it's specifically written and marketed as PF, and 2) the story revolves around the progression itself. Most of the traditional fantasy novels that get lumped into this genre, like Sanderson's stuff, fails my key criteria. Hence, why it's not PF to me.
I think your second criteria makes sense, but I do think the first one is a little odd? Like, by that metric, any book that came out before progression fantasy was codified as a genre and really got a name doesn’t count as PF.
Fair enough I just disagree pretty strongly with your definition. And so the great debate carries on
Do you have your rationale/definition expanded somewhere? Your list seems defensible to me but I'm not sure what exact criteria you're using.
Idk exact criteria isn’t something so straight forward in book genre.
What is sci fi? What is fantasy? Ya know what I mean?
But I’d call PF stories in which power and expertise are central to the MCs ability to surpass the antagonistic forces against them and thus progression in these aspects is a plot itself in the story with the degrees of power often formally or informally defined in stages of growth
That's great thanks. I definitely won't hold you to a definition you rattled off on the spot upon request.
Actually what you said is about how I understand it.
I would just add that I feel like a lot of stories are like 5, 10, 20% concerned with capability building to meet the incoming challenge.
And as such it probably qualifies as a subplot.
But it fails the other criteria of being central to the resolution.
When the main resolution is clearly gonna be through something else.
Especially a kind of spiritual challenge of "awakening the inner lion" amid overwhelming circumstance.
Or some kind of inevitable dramatic crucible, where the hero can never be sufficiently prepared, but must transcend.
Rather than thanks to the capability building, ..and actually being prepared.
...
So like they train a bit, but at the end of the day they're fated to transcend overwhelming circumstance like a divine champion, or fail.
(Harry Potter studies a bit.. But it's a gryffindor story, not ravenclaw, so that can't be the main factor.)
And at the end of the day, the capability building subplot Will not define the story unless it really is central to the resolution.
...
As for wether this pitfall applies to your list, my memory is much too fuzzy to say.
But from what I do recall, codex alera and powder mage did have much more mechanical capability-building interest than most.
So maybe not.
TL:DR:
Thx.
Of course I won't try and hold you to that, that would be pretty funny.
That sounds about right.
I would just emphasise the distinction, within capability-ascent stories, between:
Ones where expertise and power are purposefully rationally built. (With aspects like planning, patience, dedication, steady labor), as a driving force.
And ones where expertise and power are directly heroically awakened. (With aspects like "riding the tiger", staying true amid strife, inspired brilliance, and flipping into divine champion mode with the glowing eyes)
This is not strictly relevant to your list, -it's just some related thoughts on what makes something PF as I conceive it.
Oh Codex Alera, no idea how I forgot that one! Classic and great. Will check out Lightbringer and Powder Mage. Red Rising isn't really prog fantasy, but it is fun
If you want very well written prog fantasy I do recommend actually just going to the brandon Sanderson communities and seeing what they recommend instead.
You’ll get more mainstream authors who have ventured into the space rather than authors of this space
I'll keep that in mind. I still like the idea of progression based fantasy, I just also want good quality too, you know? Your point is taken though
Ya it’s just that sanderson fans tend to like the things progress fantasy are so they will recommend it without knowing
Most Sanderson books aren't PF, but the Stormlight Archive is literally one of the foundational examples for this genre, there are only 7 other books in the entirety of PF that have the same claim. If you don't consider it Progression Fantasy, you aren't talking about Progression fantasy, but something else.
Yes I’d call mistborn PF too. She does lots of training specifically to get stronger
Lightbringer not progression.
The cosmere not progresion.
Codex Alera also not progression.
Red rising is not "barely progression" it is literally the opposite.
The downvotes are probably because you dont seem to understand what is progression fantasy.
You’re just straight up wrong but that’s okay. It’s Christmas season I forgive you
Amazing the confidence of someone who is 100% wrong.
Yes your confidence is indeed amazing
Sure "red rising is progression" guy.
That’s fun you focus on the one I said is barely progression lol instead of the others which are literally staples of the genre
Hahahahaajahahabah
Dude is delusional.
lol you’re a strange fellow
Now kiss and hug
Oh man I read Dawn of Wonder when it first released. I haven't thought about it in so long. Nice to see it mentioned although very frustrating not to see more books out.
He’s like terminally or at least very sick. You can check his blog for more info but yea it’s a bummer. One of my fav books
I will challenge for return of the runebound professor to be added to this list. That series took me so off guard with how damn good it is.
Also cool to see my cats name mentioned here(Alera)
Oh nice I have not read that. Thought I long ago read all the very well written stuff in the genre. Will add to my list
Hell difficulty tutorial, and beware of chicken. Far and above the best written indie things I've ever read
Dungeon crawler Carl has hands down the best writing for me. The world building, the characters and the story are just way better than most of the progression fantasy books I have read.
Bonus points for being a published book. I feel like a lot of books on royal road have pacing issues just because of the weekly scheduling the authors have to put up with.
I'm striving to write a ProgFan story well. I think mine's pretty solid if you'd like to take a look at it.
Take your pick of anything Alexander Wales has written. I'm partial to Worth the Candle.
I would add Jake's Magical Market by JR Williams. Such a good story. Compelling characters. I think it was very well written