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this Base Namek Goku is about 3-4 times stronger than Kaioken x3 Goku from the first fight with Vegeta. We know that Vegeta was going to destroy the planet, and that Kaioken x3 Goku overpowered him in power level as well. Meaning that this base Goku should be about Large Planetary barest of minimums. It doesn’t help mark that this base goku already outstats him, But he also still has the option to use kaioken
Might be a stupid question here, but i havent seen any thing related to speed so far cuz people avoid it
How far does Manga Goku here go in speed. Because Invincible got a hugeass upgrade in speed -> They got Invincible Verse to 1.5 Billion FTL due to 10× Stats increase of an Armour
I want to see how Goku deal with the huge ass speed difference
its lowk so funny that goku being fast getting contested so much by saying that feat doesnt count cuz .. but mark being 1.5BILLION TIMES THE SPEED OF FUCKING LIGHT is just taken as the definitave truth like fym(idk what feat makes him that probably traveling between planets or some bs i didnt read the comic yet and i am not taking sides here 😊😊😊)
At 99.9999% the speed of light, a needle would act like a nuclear weapon when hitting something "stationary." Works in the opposite direction as well. A needle weighs less than a gram, generally (0.77). A nickel weighs about 5g. That means hitting a nickel at the same speed is about 6.5x as energetic of an impact. Which works out to about half the energy from the largest nuclear blast humans have ever created.
Akira isn't an astrophysicist either.
If the thraxan ship is 10 million times the speed of light and almost crashed into a black hole it wouldn't matter since we don't know how fast something would have to go to escape a black holes gravity either way. If the thraxan ship can travel 10 million times the speed of light, it can travel 10 million times the speed of light, end of story
Dragon ball characters and many FLT characters in general have been caught lacking by what seem to be relativistic speeds. Are they not light speed?
Where was it said that it took nolan a few days to travel past jupiter?
Neither are the people counting the feat astrophysicist, if they were they would know that we are INSIDE the virgo supercluster, it's not something you just fly to since we are already inside of it. In other words whilst still mftl because of how far away planets are it is impossible to even get a rough estimate of how far was flown because the planet omniman flew to could be any planet in our galaxy cluster from proxima b our closest neighbour to some unknown planet in m66
"At 2B x light speed a nickle in space would peirce through your ship and destroy it."
Im pretty sure any amount of mass at normal light speed would be destroyed, but if there was a grain of sand durable anough to survive light speed, it would probably be able to pierce through a space ship before losing its momentum.
Well you see that’s because the whole world hates Goku because of a few people who say Goku beats everyone therefore everyone tries to downplay him so their char wins or just cause they don’t like him, except for a small number of people who scale Goku accurately and a still relatively small group that claim Goku is like hyperversal
Meanwhile, Superman gets called outerversall+++ and solos all fiction and no one on this sub calls it out despite it all being BS wank and mininterpreted feats to maintain omnipotent dc herald agenda
This sub hates goku bruh. They'll do everything in their power to downplay everything goku does and wank his opponent as much as possible so he loses any matchup hes in( yet refuese to do the same to far more wanked characters like superman and any comic herald)
Well that’s because Goku’s ability to teleport is how these people quantify his speed which is BS because for example goku can teleport to beerus’s world from earth in an instant using instant transmission but it takes whis a while to fly that distance, and we all know whis is much faster than goku.
The idea that anyone in invincible is fighting at faster than light speed is fucking crazy. Like it simply doesn’t make any sense when you look at how often regular people with no speed abilities are able to go toe to toe in combat with someone who’s supposed to be ftl (but only because of travel speed wank).
Ginyu himself claimed Burter was the fastest in the universe, so we know Ginyu was slower than Burter. As for Freeza, there's nothing wrong with Burter being faster than 1st form Freeza. 1st Form Freeza wasnt stated or shown to be that fast.
Does speed really matter if Mark is just going to break his hand hitting Goku? I mean, Mark could launch him into space, but Goku could just come back down (since Saiyans don't just die instantly in space), and if Mark tries to stop him, Goku just brushes him off because Goku is 5 to 10 times stronger than Mark.
It's not really huge. Goku avoided the Taiyouken by the time he was 14. A literal light based attack. Even if you discount that, he SHOULD be FTL in combat speed against Nappa. And we know the Viltrumites travel faster than they can feasibly fight - so their speed difference should be negligible, and Mark is still leagues below Goku in striking strenght.
Kid Goku outran light, stole Roshi's shades and put them on fast enough to block the light, all with a Power level of around 150. At this point in the story while using Kaioken x10, he'd be around 100,000+ times FTL. But even with a speed disadvantage, Mark doesn't really have the AP to hurt Goku, while Goku can put him down with one good hit.
he didnt outran the light to he essentially turned its back to it and ran to grab roshi glasses while the light was active and turned it around before tenshinhan attacked him
Kid goku isn't light speed it took goku 177 days to get across snake way which was 1 million kilometers at lightspeed it would take about 4 to 5 seconds
Invincible characters - specifically top level viltrumites and speedsters - are faster than Namek Saga DB characters. There's a reason they are the ones who fight across planets while moving at erratic pace and you don't see anything similar in dragon ball till the end of Z.
Anime goku has a filler scene right before namek where he dodges asteroids while tied to a ship, traveling across the universe fast enough to reach the other end in 6 days.
Also viltrumites have to accelerate to that speed, its not burst speed like you’d need in a fight
Kid Goku was already stated somewhere in the range of Light speed to 10x light speed invincible might still be faster but by this point it probably isn’t by much like I’d say Super saiyan namek goku definitively would out speed.
Dodging light based attacks doesnt make you light speeds. Even random humans do it in fiction. We see goku take long times to travel around earth so he obviously isnt light speed narratively
The dragon ball light speed scale isn’t from aim dodging, it’s from tien doing solar flare and goku having the time to go steal roshis glasses and come back seemingly simultaneously.
Personally I don’t scale this as a light speed feat but more as a tournament gag that toriyama loved to include in tournaments (similar to krillin having to remember he didn’t have a nose to win a fight). But that’s its origin.
Yeah I would need direct statements and descriptions to consider aim dodging to be light speed. 99% of the time it isn’t. People feel like anything less than light speed is somehow slow. Like when we see this goku flying over namek he is moving incredibly fast but still only a percentage of the speed of light.
This doesnt prove your point in any way. What you are saying is basically they are ftl in short bursts, but the one with faster top speed will also have faster acceleration. We are not talking about punches anyway
nope!
this is actually the argument i love to use to explain characters being faster in combat than they are when travelling!
it's fiction, this kind of thing can happen even if it doesn't make sense
cause narratively having goku zoom around the planet 7 times a second in the saiyan saga would ruin a lot of things
i try to go for what makes the most sense, and goku dodging light constantly while being subsonic or whatever makes no sense whatsoever
(also he isn't my favorite character, if i was to glaze a character it'd be kaiba)
for me goku didnt dodge to light he turned his back to it and grabbed glasses and the was able to turn back around getting hit by the light
aslong he avoided looking directly at the light he was not blinded by it also why krillin and ect close there eyes while activating solar flare to not blind themselfes
The reason Goku doesn't zoom around the planet 7 times in a second in saiyan saga is because he isn't fast enough to do so. Literally, no one in dragon ball was that fast until Gotenks literally zoomed across the planet many times in minutes, 3 - 4 arcs later and even that feat is still slower than light.
Goku is high hypersonic at best in Saiyan saga, not light speed. Dragon Ball has light speed feats and lightspeed characters, they just didn't exist as early as many in this weird sub believes.
There is no evidence there for me to ignore, we objectively know how fast Goku is at this point by his snake way feat before using Kaioken. That's a million kilometers in half a day or so. You can't get more explicit than that when it comes to speed when the story gives you both time and distance.
That isn't an "anti feat", that isn't ignorance, that's just an important narrative point in Dragon Ball.
You don't get anything significantly faster until Gotenks goes around the entire planet numerous times in a far shorter time frame.
I think when evaluating a character, you need to pay attention to what the narrative is showing and/or telling you. When the narrator says Curse Naoya has reached Mach 3 and he's faster than any sorcerer not named Gojo, that's telling you that most people in JJK - sorcerer or cursed spirit - are slower than Mach 3.
You can't force a character to be faster or stronger than they actually are.
Goku - during the saiyan and namek saga - has never sprinted nor ran a marathon at anywhere near lightspeed. Matter of fact, he flies faster than he runs anyway and he still flies slower than light speed in both arcs.
You guys refuse to think and just have a bunch of goofy things you've read on boards that you regurgitate.
No there weren’t sun glasses available to go steal for those characters. and afterimages are directly told to us by Roshi to be them moving faster than light so it reflects off multiple places. And you know the light speed blasts because roshi’s blast hit the moon in 1 second. And future blasts are all pretty consistent with this piccolo does it again Goku bats one of frieza’s blast to a different part of the solar system in the same or less time.
And again we frequently see characters outrun blasts directly.
No there weren’t sun glasses available to go steal for those characters
Soo, they can't just turn around then? If they are ftl then they will see the solar flare coming and dodge it of course.
and afterimages are directly told to us by Roshi to be them moving faster than light so it reflects off multiple places
Where is this stated?
And you know the light speed blasts because roshi’s blast hit the moon in 1 second
Even Piccolo's blast didn't hit the moon in a second and he's obviously stronger than Roshi. Makes no sense.
And future blasts are all pretty consistent with this piccolo does it again Goku bats one of frieza’s blast to a different part of the solar system in the same or less time.
This also makes no sense, since those characters are supposed to be soooooo much faster than og db Roshi or sos Piccolo.
Goku was already doing shit at 15-16 against Tien that was faster than light when he moved to go grab sunglasses during the solar flare attack. He had a power level around 180 at this point in time. The Goku you have here had a power level of 90,000, and could’ve doubled his strength and speed without any real risk. So Goku had FTL feats at 15 and at this point he’s at least 500 to 1000 times stronger and faster (and that’s only if you think power levels are linear, so that’s actually only lowballing)
One of the strongest and fastest dudes in the entire universe at that time couldn’t even perceive Goku’s speed. Mark is screwed.
Early goku isn't light speed it took goku 177 days to get across snake way which was 1 million kilometers at lightspeed it would take about 4 to 5 seconds
Who do you think is faster, Bruce Lee or Usain Bolt
Bolt can run 100 meters faster than anyone but Bruce Lee can punch people before they can even react.
Long distances is different than short bursts of speed, it is not that hard to understand
They literally fly out of the way of attacks to dodge if they can fly for even 1 second at the speed of light they could circle the planet 7 times. If lightspeed is no big deal why was dyspo being lightspeed such a big deal in the tournament of power? If so early in the series they hit lightspeed how did all the way in super krillin get shot by a regular bullet lol
Again, travel speed and combat speed are different, do you want me to point out to you how Mark and Omiman get hit by punches thrown by people who have no super speed?
How Omniman got hit by an orbital laser when he should be faster than light and could have dodged it?
Something I don't understand is how on earth a character can be as fast as light and it's not reflected in other aspects?
Could it be that the laws of physics are different in each fictional universe?
Let's say, for example, that the speed of light in Dragon Ball is slower than in DC. That would make more sense as to why each action of a character doesn't have an effect on the environment or spacetime.
If Goku was fast enough to outrun light from Solar Flar, then why did Frieza, Piccolo after fusing with Kami o Super Trunks get affected by it? They are millions of times steonger than that Goku and much faster, they should be able to turn around or get out of range.
Mark wasn’t nearly anywhere that fast but regardless that’s his traveling speed not his combat speed. Combat speed Goku is still far faster even if mark could see him he’s not reacting fast enough to dodge or block his movements
Max speed != fighting speed. Without physics restrictions like friction or speed of light cap, a honda civic can go 1.5 billion FTL with enough gas and time. Does this mean the honda civic blitzes goku?
Well he is faster than Burter who speedblized Gohan, Krilin and Vegeta and he should be 500 times faster than himself from when he fought Tien and dodged Solar Flare (his power level was 180 at the time) so while he is probably slower than Mark he isn’t slow
If you wanna go there, we can bring up kid Goku outspeeding Taioken and Roshi Moonbusting instantly, making them faster than light since Goku was a small child and scale from there from how many times he has become more powerful and faster since then
Mark is only that fast in the context of traveling long distances in space. Nobody in the series has any feats even remotely close to that level outside the very specific context of traveling in a straight line between planets. Unless I’m forgetting something, in which case please correct me, all actual fights happen closer to hypersonic speeds. Now, Goku’s speed is difficult to figure out. He, Krillin, and Roshi were casually hypersonic early on in OG Dragonball, with some gag feats that are FTL. Meanwhile, at the start of the Saiyan saga, it took a long time for him to traverse snake way. I think it is commonly accepted that he has FTL combat speeds by the time we get to Namek, though.
This might be a silly question, but I haven't seen anything related to speed so far because people avoid it.
In terms of movement speed, Goku at that point is at most hypersonic. In terms of reaction speed, he must be above FTL since he's faster than Raditz, who dodged a Makankosappo, which is classified as a light-based attack.
They managed to get the Invincible universe to 1.5 billion FTL due to the 10x increase in the stats of an armor.
That's a good feat in terms of movement speed, but in terms of reaction speed, Mark has been surprised by superhumans or metahumans. Furthermore, elite Viltrumites like Conquest were surprised by a point-blank laser from Eve.
I want to see how Goku deals with the HUGE speed difference.
Normally, Viltrumites fly at Mach 10 in atmospheres, and that's quite noticeable in the comic and emphasized in guides. Unless Mark manages to get Goku off the planet (which I doubt), there's not much he can do. The difference in AP and Stamina is brutal.
Goku absolutely destroys Mark. Considering he was already way past anything from the Saiyan Saga. If you are strictly allowing just the 90K then same results anyways. But this version has access to Kaioken to Kaioken x10.
Manga namek goku should take it, Vegeta during the saiyan saga was about around 18k making Namek Goku nearly 5 times as strong as him with already FTL dodge speed.
If we assume Vegeta destorying planet earth was legit (and we have no reason not too) then Goku should be able to output 5 times that amount of energy and seeing how Mark’s bests don’t really upscale from the planet busting one (something that he needed help with), it’d say to say Goku takes strength.
If I had to give ratings:
Goku: physical stats, Ki, way better actual training
Experience due to age doesn't matter?? Goju has fought and trained against beings beyond hundreds of years of age. Like Kami for example? Or even King Kai? Majin Buu?
Honestly Mark being older doesn't do anything when Goku has fought and trained with millenia old gods since the beginning.
I mean, this is manga namek saga goku, at best he’s fought king piccolo and trained with king Kai/Kami.
Also yes, mark being older just means he’s fighting longer, it doesn’t automatically make him better, hence why Goku has a better fighting technique. Anyone should realistically know exprience only helps you so much in a fight and in this fight it doesn’t help mark at all.
But thats my whole point though like you said, even though he may have fought longer it doesn't put him near Goku's overall fighting technique so Mark's experience fighting this long doesn't actually matter if it doesn't give him an advantage or put him on even level with Goku which is why I mentioned old beings like Kami and King Kai. Goku is waaay stronger than many beings who have more experience and are older than him.
Im not giving to much thought about it lmao Im responding back to you. Dont feel some way just because I questioned you on something WE BOTH AGREE doesn't actually do anything for Mark. Which was my whole argument.
This is (non super saiyan) Goku that could keep up with Frieza the planet buster and easily defeat ginyu force that trashed vegeta. (which include one hit (well, elbow combo) the very durable recoom and outpace the universe fastest, burter)
he should be able to keep up with invicible easy but this technically namek goku should also include super saiyan 1 goku which at that point its good bye invicible.
Invincible couldn’t destroy a planet without help from three other people and a dwarf star level going to Cheez it
Goku passively can destroy entire stars with no issue. Remember the ballpark to destroy a planet is in the 10,000 rages. Goku is nine times stronger than the worst planet, buster and even then we had characters with a power level as weak as 160 destroy the moon to a dwarf star level degree due to the size and yield of the explosion so no invincible splattering himself against Goku and there’s really no argument
If I use a (already calculated amount of force) to destroy something that doesn't require that much force is not an anti feat because we already know the value of the explosion.
If you're trying to quantify the strength of something based on the evidence of what you've seen it do, then it's actually relevant.
Wait till you remember that dwarf stars are millions of millions of millions of times denser than the moon and that size =/= mass whatsoever
black holes has the mass far greater than the largest of stars but most are smaller than the earth
Roshi being able to destroy the moon is a moon level feat, a white dwarf is millions of times more denser than the moon. a single teaspoon of white dwarf material would weigh several thousand pounds.
A single teaspoon of basalt from the moon weighs 7 grams
They’re the same radius, but one is far far more massive due to density
Like imagine swimming through water vs swimming through solid lead.
One is a lot harder to do than the other because of density.
Well by that logic all moons are stars. Or maybe a dwarf star the size of a moon is significantly more dense than a moon and therefore not a reasonable comparison.
This just in! A new report claims that a small star is a small star and a moon is a moon.
My logic is that destroying a moon is moon level and no amount of vaporization is going to upscale that. Toriyama just didn't want to draw a massive amount of debris, that's it.
Let's see.
Honestly all we can say about Invincible is that he upscales from his fight with Thragg and is likely the strongest Viltrumite we've seen.
He should scale above peak Thragg who is arguably planet level just off of his ability to 3v1 Thadeus, Mark and Nolan at the time of the Viltrum feat, even if you don't think Mark, Nolan or Thadeus are planetary, Thragg at the time was so much stronger none of them were a threat to him, even together with Space Racer he should no-sell.
I'd argue EOS Invincible has AT LEAST Planetary Durability with a low-ball Multi-continental striking and lifting strength. His BIQ isn't anything special but he's a good brawler and clearly capable of holding his own in a fight but if it did come down to straight hands he's not keeping up with Goku in an equal CQC scenario.
Now, for 90k Namek Saga Goku, he has Kaioken (up to 20x) and with a PL of 90k he is at least 11x stronger than he was against Vegeta on Earth, even more if you don't believe PL is linear. Vegeta was capable of destroying the Earth and Goku has been a moon buster since Dragonball; with 20x Kaioken his stats are jumping immensely. Low-ball relativistic reaction speed for Raditz but considering he could speed blitz the people throwing around relativistic attacks (.98c is the calc for the moon bust based on Anime Travel time, if it's instant which the Manga is ambiguous enough to allow then it's 1c.) meaning Goku with a PL of 416 is SOL if we're only SLIGHTLY generous, if we're not he's relativistic. Regardless he's 4,358X more powerful with max Kaioken at this point and if PL is linear his speed should scale with it meaning he should be at least Mutli-planetary, if not reaching Stellar levels of strength and MFTL. He's hitting much, much harder than Mark can take, the issue comes down to speed as some people have calculated Mark's speed (low-ball) at Millions of Times FTL which is hundreds of thousands of times faster than Goku at the time, especially with no filler to lean on for Speed feats.
The real question is can Invincible even damage Goku? Probably not, he's also several outclassed in terms of pure strength meaning Goku isn't pulling any grapples off to any real effect; if he can get Invincible to stand still long enough or, more likely, maneuver him into a trap or even just catch him off guard Goku wins this. If Invincible can outlast Goku for long enough he has a wincon of defeating an exhausted Goku as without his Ki Goku is superhuman but not to the level of fighting Mark.
Long post, TLDR Goku should be at least Mutli-planetary with MFTL combat speed while Mark is probably Planetary at a highball with MFTL+ speed, it Mark can outlast Goku without taking a hit he can win by wearing Goku down, otherwise he just outright loses, assuming they're just trying beat one another, in an all out fight where Goku is matching Mark's Strength and Mark is slowing down for Goku I give it to Goku on account of the skill gap, Mark never shows real combat skill and is mostly just a brawler who relies on his Dura and Strength while Goku is noted by others to be a genius tactician and skilled Martial Artist.
Is there a difference betwen anime and Manga goku that makes it so Mark has a chance to win? Because mark isnt tanking a planet buster attack from goku or vegeta pre namek so is the only question is EOS combat speed fast enough to blitz goku of dodge ki beams. And I frankly dont know since even conquest isnt fast enough from what we saw in TV series and hes the number 2 strongest viltrimite. Even if we were to fodderize conquest the difference and raise the power scaling by numerous levels to planet busting which i hear still isnt possible eos or at least easily possible it hard to imagine EOS Mark is going to scale that much faster and stronger.
Invincible can survive in the vacuum of space, while Goku can't. What's the point of being a planet if you can't survive without it?
That's true, but Goku spent his time fighting opponents who could also survive the vacuum of space—Frieza, Cell, and Majin Buu—and he could still defeat them with a single blow.
This is just Goku during namek so cell and majin aren’t in the equation. And saying he defeated frieza in a single blow is an obvious exaggeration as he was still alive after his fight while obviously heavily wounded, but it should also be noted that Goku was pushed to his absolute limits at the time in this fight and only survived the post battle because he was able to find a ship to escape the planet.
I’d also argue mark is far more durable than frieza is during this arc and would not die in a single blow.
Marks best feats are his justifiable many times the speed of light , but his travel speed legit does not carry over to his combat at all at all it’s crazy so it dosent even matter unless he wants to run away , Goku doesn’t know instant transmission yet
So Goku fights mark on a reasonable level , notices that mark isn’t getting stronger and goes to kill him , if mark somehow survives he runs away and Goku has to leave him
I see several post about the disagreement of Piccolo's Moon feat being Large Planet Level or Higher.
I think people forget that there are major factors that come into play to way it grants a higher tier beyond Moon Level:
- The Moon was BEYOND just Vaporized, it was basically erased from existence (easily AT LEAST 20000x damage multiplier)
- The Speed of the blast, which also multiplies its power
- How casual the feat was done. Piccolo did not even need to charge up any ki before preforming the feat.
But lets say we don't use all the technical talk and just reduce this to a casual conversation. Do you know how HUGE the moon is? Imagine seeing someone erase the Moon, LITERALLY in the blink of a eye, didn't even break a sweat.
That person then turns to look at you and says he could destroy hundreds of planets.
You really need to go back to Gokus fight with king piccolo to give anybody in invincible a chance. Once you hit the saiyan saga after he dies beating raditz, he’s surpassed anything in the invincible verse.
His striking strength scales to his ki blast strengh and at this point he can pop planets effortlessly.
No one in Invincible ever gets strong enough to blow up a planet on their own. It took three physical top tiers and hax help from a fourth to blow up Viltrum and all three still nearly died in the process.
Well, Namek Goku, with his current power level, should be at least Large Planet because he surpasses Vegeta's power by about 4 or 5 times. This doesn't include the Kaioken, which at x10 should take him to Brown Dwarf/Small Star (depending on how you interpret Frieza's feat of destroying Planet Vegeta). Mark is at most Small Planet, and his only advantage is Speed, which won't help him much considering he'll break his hand hitting Goku. So, Goku wins.
Goku combat speed is MFTL+ because he dodged a blast from Frieza. Frieza used a blast that traveled to a planet in a second or possibly less. So Goku casually dodging a blast from Frieza at a even closer range is what grants MFTL+ speed.
However, movement speed is actually less. But that doesn't matter in this scenario if Mark can't do anything to physically hurt Goku (which should be a strike that is at least 1000x planet level).
Goku has a power level of 90,000. Goku could destroy the planet already with a power level above 10,000 in the Saiyan saga. In dragon ball, speed correlates with power. Now imagine Goku at 90k but he still has the Kaioken which would boost his power level to 1.8 million. I am pretty sure Goku easily beast EOS Invincible
EOS Mark is lowball multi-continental, planetary AT BEST. Goku was well beyond Planetary when he fought NAPPA. Even if you lowball it, he was bare minimum Planetary against Vegeta. By the time he REACHES Namek? Bro could feasibly destroy a few planets on his own.
Just using the DB manga, emperor mark is a bit too fast for this goku to reliably hit. They’re both MFTL, but mark is considerably more so without anime feats. The problem for mark though is that he can’t hurt goku and would probably hurt himself trying, so unless he brings the fight to space this is either a stalemate or mark splattering himself on a brick wall
Person who can destroy a planet an arc ago vs person who can’t unless the planet has a destabilized core and two other people are helping him. Hmmm… I think Goku takes this one.
OK, so Roshi destroyed the moon at a power level of 139.
The Earth is 86 times as dense as the moon and therefore 86 times as hard to destroy for this. That means you need a power level of 12k to blow up the Earth.
Goku has a power level eight times that which he can increase to 80 times that at will.
The three strongest working together on an unstable planet weren’t sure they could destroy one planet.
Mark obviously has speed, because I mean, Snake Way.
Combat attack power easily goes to Goku. Being stronger than the Vegeta who could've destroyed the Earth just puts him above Mark in terms of destructive power.
Tank stats though? Goku almost died to 100x Earth gravity on his way to Namek. He's not nearly as durable as people think he is.
If Goku can land a hit? He'll win. If not? He'll just get destroyed. With that in mind? Speed should mean Mark takes the fight.
Goky annihalates mark in an actual fight, you could argue mark is faster but only in travel speed but in combat reactions nope. Strength, durability and dc is a massive stomp for goku.....sayian ark vegeta could annihalate a planet casually and this goku is leaps and bounds above him and marks endurance advantage is pointless when he cant even damage goku and any serious attack from goku will just annihalate him fullstop.
Mark does have a valid win condition though Goku being the silly goober he is might just play around with him and Mark can trick him into allowing him to blitz through the core of the planet and destabilize it. A serious weakness of most DB characters including Goku is that they cant survive in space despite their insane galaxy level feats and above. Goku would die in space and he does not have IT at this point and Marks arguably better travel speed would allow him to get away from Goku and accomplish the planet killer especially since Goku dosent start fights bloodlusted.
Goku is outright stronger without even using kaioken, it only takes a PL of 10k to destroy a planet, goku at 90k is bodying mark and the rest of the verse
Completely featless tbh so might as well lose since Mark never shows anything higher than low planetary as opposed to the multiple times planetary Goku even without kaioken
Didn't Master Roshi blow up the moon with relative ease? And isn't this Goku stronger than 1st form Frieza who blew up Vegeta(The Planet) with relative ease?
I'm not sure if Mark can even now destroy a planet by himself...
Comparing those two universe is pointless since they have wildly different scaling
Viltrumite have other benefits saiyans dont have
Such as their abilities to breath in space, near immortal durability and more importantly, ridiculous long lifespan
If Viltrumite where sent to the DBZ universe I truly wonder how strong they'd get after mastering Qi
Anyway the only way a Mark could win is if he destroyed the planet and pulled goku in place but even then he'd kill all the people there and goku could escape.
Goku beat except speed viltrumites have higher speed at this stage (travel) not reflex but Durability wil be deciding factor.If this is goku who is fighting frieza then GOKU Wins!.
Not a big invincible power scaler... But Goku should clear, honestly Invincible belongs more in the Saiyan arc or early Namek.
Regardless of how you wanna try to get an AP calc for Goku? It will be significantly above all but the most generous interpretations of invincible. Like if you wanna take Roshi Moon busting, daizenshuu saying 23rd Budokai moon busts, Piccolo Moon busting, or like daizenshuu saying 10k = able to destroy planets. 90k Goku is significantly above planetary... Which is kinda invincible verse's peak.
Speed wise both are just contentious amounts of FTL. With reacting to laser attacks being a consistent action in both series. And like random calc stacks or whatever. Invincible often having the asterisk of long distance travel speed in space, and possibly some weird hax to amp his space travel speed... And then like Dragonball being inconsistent at times with like Goku outrunning Taioken, but then other times being hit by seemingly slower attacks.
And then... Well, even if we kinda just say "equal stats" ... Goku is the famous martial arts master, Invincible is kind of just a street fighter, it'd probably go like Goku vs Caulifla in the TOP... And then obviously there's the whole thing of Goku has super powers beyond strength and flight. That Invincible doesn't. Invincible can't really make beams, they can't sense energy, they can't make a blinding flash of light, etc.
There's a lot of guesswork around Mark at the end of the series, but I seriously doubt he's in this ballpark. He's maybe a planet buster by this point maybe.Huge maybe.
He'd probably kill Nappa and lose to Vegeta when he first arrived on earth.
I wouldn't get that specific because we don't see any feats from him. I just know Mark was probably around continent level after he killed Conquest, but Allen still kicked the shit out of him. End of Series Mark beats Allen in a fight, seemingly handily. And Allen might have even undergone another powerup.
So I'd say small planet level, maybe able to destroy earth if he really tried. I'd say somewhere between Nappa and Vegeta, and I don't think I can safely guess where in there he is.
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this Base Namek Goku is about 3-4 times stronger than Kaioken x3 Goku from the first fight with Vegeta. We know that Vegeta was going to destroy the planet, and that Kaioken x3 Goku overpowered him in power level as well. Meaning that this base Goku should be about Large Planetary barest of minimums. It doesn’t help mark that this base goku already outstats him, But he also still has the option to use kaioken
Might be a stupid question here, but i havent seen any thing related to speed so far cuz people avoid it
How far does Manga Goku here go in speed. Because Invincible got a hugeass upgrade in speed -> They got Invincible Verse to 1.5 Billion FTL due to 10× Stats increase of an Armour
I want to see how Goku deal with the huge ass speed difference
its lowk so funny that goku being fast getting contested so much by saying that feat doesnt count cuz .. but mark being 1.5BILLION TIMES THE SPEED OF FUCKING LIGHT is just taken as the definitave truth like fym(idk what feat makes him that probably traveling between planets or some bs i didnt read the comic yet and i am not taking sides here 😊😊😊)
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yup i knew it would be some travel to a planet type bs just give tp tech ffs instead of fucking up the fandom like this
At 99.9999% the speed of light, a needle would act like a nuclear weapon when hitting something "stationary." Works in the opposite direction as well. A needle weighs less than a gram, generally (0.77). A nickel weighs about 5g. That means hitting a nickel at the same speed is about 6.5x as energetic of an impact. Which works out to about half the energy from the largest nuclear blast humans have ever created.
Fun energy calculator - https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/relativistic-ke
Ha I thought I remembered a relevent xkcd!
https://what-if.xkcd.com/1/
What about a human sized object?
::points at calculator::
Akira isn't an astrophysicist either. If the thraxan ship is 10 million times the speed of light and almost crashed into a black hole it wouldn't matter since we don't know how fast something would have to go to escape a black holes gravity either way. If the thraxan ship can travel 10 million times the speed of light, it can travel 10 million times the speed of light, end of story
Dragon ball characters and many FLT characters in general have been caught lacking by what seem to be relativistic speeds. Are they not light speed? Where was it said that it took nolan a few days to travel past jupiter?
Neither are the people counting the feat astrophysicist, if they were they would know that we are INSIDE the virgo supercluster, it's not something you just fly to since we are already inside of it. In other words whilst still mftl because of how far away planets are it is impossible to even get a rough estimate of how far was flown because the planet omniman flew to could be any planet in our galaxy cluster from proxima b our closest neighbour to some unknown planet in m66
"At 2B x light speed a nickle in space would peirce through your ship and destroy it."
Im pretty sure any amount of mass at normal light speed would be destroyed, but if there was a grain of sand durable anough to survive light speed, it would probably be able to pierce through a space ship before losing its momentum.
Well you see that’s because the whole world hates Goku because of a few people who say Goku beats everyone therefore everyone tries to downplay him so their char wins or just cause they don’t like him, except for a small number of people who scale Goku accurately and a still relatively small group that claim Goku is like hyperversal
Meanwhile, Superman gets called outerversall+++ and solos all fiction and no one on this sub calls it out despite it all being BS wank and mininterpreted feats to maintain omnipotent dc herald agenda
batman fans are more annoying tbh
This sub hates goku bruh. They'll do everything in their power to downplay everything goku does and wank his opponent as much as possible so he loses any matchup hes in( yet refuese to do the same to far more wanked characters like superman and any comic herald)
Well that’s because Goku’s ability to teleport is how these people quantify his speed which is BS because for example goku can teleport to beerus’s world from earth in an instant using instant transmission but it takes whis a while to fly that distance, and we all know whis is much faster than goku.
The idea that anyone in invincible is fighting at faster than light speed is fucking crazy. Like it simply doesn’t make any sense when you look at how often regular people with no speed abilities are able to go toe to toe in combat with someone who’s supposed to be ftl (but only because of travel speed wank).
He moved faster than burter (who was the self proclaimed fastest in the universe) could perceive with his eyes.
"who was the self proclaimed fastest in the universe"
Even though Ginyu and Frieza themselves should be both faster than him. Burter is full of shit.
“And, if ya think about it, Guldo can stop time, so that technically makes him faster than-“
“No! No! I am not slower than fucking Guldo!”
"It's all I've got!"
Fuck yeah
Ginyu himself claimed Burter was the fastest in the universe, so we know Ginyu was slower than Burter. As for Freeza, there's nothing wrong with Burter being faster than 1st form Freeza. 1st Form Freeza wasnt stated or shown to be that fast.
Honestly, they might've meant a very particular definetion of it, like 'per power level unit' or something.
Because even without Ginyu being considered, Freeza had other guys in his forces that weren't that far off rom Ginyu. Never mind his father.
Who wasn't that far from Ginyu
They were a bunch of idiots and burtur happened to be particularly fast lmfao do people unironically read this deep into this statement 😭😭😭
Fastest in Universe
Did you forget Freeza
SELF PROCLAIMED
Still, the argument doesnt put Manga Burter anywhere above Million FTL
And Guldo can stop time so technically....
No! I am not slower than fucking Guldo!!!!
Does speed really matter if Mark is just going to break his hand hitting Goku? I mean, Mark could launch him into space, but Goku could just come back down (since Saiyans don't just die instantly in space), and if Mark tries to stop him, Goku just brushes him off because Goku is 5 to 10 times stronger than Mark.
It's not really huge. Goku avoided the Taiyouken by the time he was 14. A literal light based attack. Even if you discount that, he SHOULD be FTL in combat speed against Nappa. And we know the Viltrumites travel faster than they can feasibly fight - so their speed difference should be negligible, and Mark is still leagues below Goku in striking strenght.
Invincible is not 1.5 Billion times FTL ffs. Its clearly stated in the narrative and shown via fights they are nowhere near that fast.
Kid Goku outran light, stole Roshi's shades and put them on fast enough to block the light, all with a Power level of around 150. At this point in the story while using Kaioken x10, he'd be around 100,000+ times FTL. But even with a speed disadvantage, Mark doesn't really have the AP to hurt Goku, while Goku can put him down with one good hit.
Op when there are 2 replies and one is a good point and the other is a meme so he decides to reply to the one that's least relevant
he didnt outran the light to he essentially turned its back to it and ran to grab roshi glasses while the light was active and turned it around before tenshinhan attacked him
Kid goku isn't light speed it took goku 177 days to get across snake way which was 1 million kilometers at lightspeed it would take about 4 to 5 seconds
Combat Speed =/= Travel Speed
Using gags from og db as feats probably isn't the best, but really db has a lot of inconsistencies in general.
It doesn't look like a gag to me https://youtu.be/qjHck3UHDXU?si=1Xv2PiiU8oFS085s (skip to 13:46)
Aye, good call. For some reason, I was thinking this happened during one of the fortune teller baba fights, and some of those were pretty gaggy.
Completely illogical to think that FTL travel speed is the same as combat speed.
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Invincible characters - specifically top level viltrumites and speedsters - are faster than Namek Saga DB characters. There's a reason they are the ones who fight across planets while moving at erratic pace and you don't see anything similar in dragon ball till the end of Z.
1.5B x speed of light...
Travel speed =/= combat speed
Combat speed they sre showb maybe a hundred times speed of sound.
Please Donnt be tricked into using galaxy traveling feats by a guy who isnt an astrophysics and seems to know absolutely nothing about space.
Anime goku has a filler scene right before namek where he dodges asteroids while tied to a ship, traveling across the universe fast enough to reach the other end in 6 days.
Also viltrumites have to accelerate to that speed, its not burst speed like you’d need in a fight
"Also viltrumites have to accelerate to that speed, its not burst speed like you’d need in a fight"
That's made up headcanon mate.
https://www.reddit.com/r/PowerScaling/s/q1tcicJhXf
Even if invincible is faster, logic from invincibles own universe dictates that he’s just gonna chunky salsa himself when he collides with goku.
Kid Goku was already stated somewhere in the range of Light speed to 10x light speed invincible might still be faster but by this point it probably isn’t by much like I’d say Super saiyan namek goku definitively would out speed.
Dodging light based attacks doesnt make you light speeds. Even random humans do it in fiction. We see goku take long times to travel around earth so he obviously isnt light speed narratively
The dragon ball light speed scale isn’t from aim dodging, it’s from tien doing solar flare and goku having the time to go steal roshis glasses and come back seemingly simultaneously.
Personally I don’t scale this as a light speed feat but more as a tournament gag that toriyama loved to include in tournaments (similar to krillin having to remember he didn’t have a nose to win a fight). But that’s its origin.
Yeah, i personally dont take dodging lasers as evidence of ftl speeds unless it makes sense narratively
Yeah I would need direct statements and descriptions to consider aim dodging to be light speed. 99% of the time it isn’t. People feel like anything less than light speed is somehow slow. Like when we see this goku flying over namek he is moving incredibly fast but still only a percentage of the speed of light.
No like directly told by Roshi that’s how afterimage works
travel speed and combat speed are different
This is just coping you glazers love to use when narratively you cant justify the supposed stats of your fav characters
Who is faster Usain Bolt or Mike Tyson?
Now if you had to bet on who could weave around a flurry of punches, who would you put your money on?
Combat speed is different than movement speed.
Bad comparison.
2 different types of athletes.
A more apt comparison would be saying that:
Mike Tyson is a fast fighter, but a slow runner.
But then that wouldn't be true either because Mike Tyson could actually run fucking fast for his size.
He ran 6 miles daily and also incorporated sprints into his workouts.
There's no official 100m dash for Tyson but people estimate he could easily do a sub 11 second 100m dash as a 5'10 220lbs build.
All this to say, Mike Tyson travel speed and fight speed are relative.
This doesnt prove your point in any way. What you are saying is basically they are ftl in short bursts, but the one with faster top speed will also have faster acceleration. We are not talking about punches anyway
nope!
this is actually the argument i love to use to explain characters being faster in combat than they are when travelling!
it's fiction, this kind of thing can happen even if it doesn't make sense
cause narratively having goku zoom around the planet 7 times a second in the saiyan saga would ruin a lot of things
i try to go for what makes the most sense, and goku dodging light constantly while being subsonic or whatever makes no sense whatsoever
(also he isn't my favorite character, if i was to glaze a character it'd be kaiba)
for me goku didnt dodge to light he turned his back to it and grabbed glasses and the was able to turn back around getting hit by the light
aslong he avoided looking directly at the light he was not blinded by it also why krillin and ect close there eyes while activating solar flare to not blind themselfes
that's not the feat i was talking about
and it's for that exact reason, kid goku is not light speed
The reason Goku doesn't zoom around the planet 7 times in a second in saiyan saga is because he isn't fast enough to do so. Literally, no one in dragon ball was that fast until Gotenks literally zoomed across the planet many times in minutes, 3 - 4 arcs later and even that feat is still slower than light.
Goku is high hypersonic at best in Saiyan saga, not light speed. Dragon Ball has light speed feats and lightspeed characters, they just didn't exist as early as many in this weird sub believes.
You can't "ruin" something that doesn't exist.
right, so you're the opposite of a glazer
you want to ignore all evidence of power in favor of stomping your least favorite characters into the dirt
that's what your scaling tells me
they have TONS of light speed feats, but you ignore all of them because they contradict their anti-feats
your behavior is no different from the behavior you chastise :skull:
There is no evidence there for me to ignore, we objectively know how fast Goku is at this point by his snake way feat before using Kaioken. That's a million kilometers in half a day or so. You can't get more explicit than that when it comes to speed when the story gives you both time and distance.
That isn't an "anti feat", that isn't ignorance, that's just an important narrative point in Dragon Ball.
You don't get anything significantly faster until Gotenks goes around the entire planet numerous times in a far shorter time frame.
I think when evaluating a character, you need to pay attention to what the narrative is showing and/or telling you. When the narrator says Curse Naoya has reached Mach 3 and he's faster than any sorcerer not named Gojo, that's telling you that most people in JJK - sorcerer or cursed spirit - are slower than Mach 3.
You can't force a character to be faster or stronger than they actually are.
They literally outrun blasts that blew up the moon in seconds, hypersonic is an absurd lowball
Marathon vs sprint.
Goku - during the saiyan and namek saga - has never sprinted nor ran a marathon at anywhere near lightspeed. Matter of fact, he flies faster than he runs anyway and he still flies slower than light speed in both arcs.
You guys refuse to think and just have a bunch of goofy things you've read on boards that you regurgitate.
True - travel speed is faster.
You have one outlier feat (that is arguable as well) to get kid Goku to ftl. That's wank.
Afterimages dodging light speed blasts outrunning literal light from solar flare all kid goku and once teen goku outruns light speed blasts frequently
Like a supersonic feat.
Where?
Oh, the same solar flare that also works on second form Frieza and even cell saga characters? I guess kid Goku is just faster than them then.
Where?
No there weren’t sun glasses available to go steal for those characters. and afterimages are directly told to us by Roshi to be them moving faster than light so it reflects off multiple places. And you know the light speed blasts because roshi’s blast hit the moon in 1 second. And future blasts are all pretty consistent with this piccolo does it again Goku bats one of frieza’s blast to a different part of the solar system in the same or less time.
And again we frequently see characters outrun blasts directly.
Soo, they can't just turn around then? If they are ftl then they will see the solar flare coming and dodge it of course.
Where is this stated?
Even Piccolo's blast didn't hit the moon in a second and he's obviously stronger than Roshi. Makes no sense.
This also makes no sense, since those characters are supposed to be soooooo much faster than og db Roshi or sos Piccolo.
Goku was already doing shit at 15-16 against Tien that was faster than light when he moved to go grab sunglasses during the solar flare attack. He had a power level around 180 at this point in time. The Goku you have here had a power level of 90,000, and could’ve doubled his strength and speed without any real risk. So Goku had FTL feats at 15 and at this point he’s at least 500 to 1000 times stronger and faster (and that’s only if you think power levels are linear, so that’s actually only lowballing)
One of the strongest and fastest dudes in the entire universe at that time couldn’t even perceive Goku’s speed. Mark is screwed.
Early goku isn't light speed it took goku 177 days to get across snake way which was 1 million kilometers at lightspeed it would take about 4 to 5 seconds
Travel speed is different than combat speed
Who do you think is faster, Bruce Lee or Usain Bolt Bolt can run 100 meters faster than anyone but Bruce Lee can punch people before they can even react.
Long distances is different than short bursts of speed, it is not that hard to understand
They literally fly out of the way of attacks to dodge if they can fly for even 1 second at the speed of light they could circle the planet 7 times. If lightspeed is no big deal why was dyspo being lightspeed such a big deal in the tournament of power? If so early in the series they hit lightspeed how did all the way in super krillin get shot by a regular bullet lol
Again, travel speed and combat speed are different, do you want me to point out to you how Mark and Omiman get hit by punches thrown by people who have no super speed? How Omniman got hit by an orbital laser when he should be faster than light and could have dodged it?
Something I don't understand is how on earth a character can be as fast as light and it's not reflected in other aspects?
Could it be that the laws of physics are different in each fictional universe?
Let's say, for example, that the speed of light in Dragon Ball is slower than in DC. That would make more sense as to why each action of a character doesn't have an effect on the environment or spacetime.
Bolt is faster than Lee. Next question?
If Goku was fast enough to outrun light from Solar Flar, then why did Frieza, Piccolo after fusing with Kami o Super Trunks get affected by it? They are millions of times steonger than that Goku and much faster, they should be able to turn around or get out of range.
Honestly the only comparable Goku would be the once who fought dkp.
Goku crossed Snake way an infinite void
This feat>>>>everything in invincible
Mark wasn’t nearly anywhere that fast but regardless that’s his traveling speed not his combat speed. Combat speed Goku is still far faster even if mark could see him he’s not reacting fast enough to dodge or block his movements
Max speed != fighting speed. Without physics restrictions like friction or speed of light cap, a honda civic can go 1.5 billion FTL with enough gas and time. Does this mean the honda civic blitzes goku?
Well he is faster than Burter who speedblized Gohan, Krilin and Vegeta and he should be 500 times faster than himself from when he fought Tien and dodged Solar Flare (his power level was 180 at the time) so while he is probably slower than Mark he isn’t slow
If you wanna go there, we can bring up kid Goku outspeeding Taioken and Roshi Moonbusting instantly, making them faster than light since Goku was a small child and scale from there from how many times he has become more powerful and faster since then
Manga Goku moves 1 frame per frame
Mark is only that fast in the context of traveling long distances in space. Nobody in the series has any feats even remotely close to that level outside the very specific context of traveling in a straight line between planets. Unless I’m forgetting something, in which case please correct me, all actual fights happen closer to hypersonic speeds. Now, Goku’s speed is difficult to figure out. He, Krillin, and Roshi were casually hypersonic early on in OG Dragonball, with some gag feats that are FTL. Meanwhile, at the start of the Saiyan saga, it took a long time for him to traverse snake way. I think it is commonly accepted that he has FTL combat speeds by the time we get to Namek, though.
In terms of movement speed, Goku at that point is at most hypersonic. In terms of reaction speed, he must be above FTL since he's faster than Raditz, who dodged a Makankosappo, which is classified as a light-based attack.
That's a good feat in terms of movement speed, but in terms of reaction speed, Mark has been surprised by superhumans or metahumans. Furthermore, elite Viltrumites like Conquest were surprised by a point-blank laser from Eve.
https://preview.redd.it/zbs743bwvfdg1.jpeg?width=532&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d594c43023e410290849b5c094ac443b61d80c37
Normally, Viltrumites fly at Mach 10 in atmospheres, and that's quite noticeable in the comic and emphasized in guides. Unless Mark manages to get Goku off the planet (which I doubt), there's not much he can do. The difference in AP and Stamina is brutal.
That’s an increase in power level not relative strength (by which you mean power).
This Goku is well beyond planet buster, he splatters Mark
Eos mark would struggle with nappa, hell he'd probably lose
Physically, 1000 Gigaton range.
Goku absolutely destroys Mark. Considering he was already way past anything from the Saiyan Saga. If you are strictly allowing just the 90K then same results anyways. But this version has access to Kaioken to Kaioken x10.
Manga namek goku should take it, Vegeta during the saiyan saga was about around 18k making Namek Goku nearly 5 times as strong as him with already FTL dodge speed.
If we assume Vegeta destorying planet earth was legit (and we have no reason not too) then Goku should be able to output 5 times that amount of energy and seeing how Mark’s bests don’t really upscale from the planet busting one (something that he needed help with), it’d say to say Goku takes strength.
If I had to give ratings:
Goku: physical stats, Ki, way better actual training
EoS Emperor invincible: experience
Argue something to me please cause I think Namek Goku has like 100 times more battle experience than Emperor Mark.
I mean eos mark is a LOT older being hundreds of years vs goku being in his mid 20’s I believe. (I have to make it look a lot one sided)
Not by saiyan saga and eos mark/
Experience due to age doesn't matter?? Goju has fought and trained against beings beyond hundreds of years of age. Like Kami for example? Or even King Kai? Majin Buu?
Honestly Mark being older doesn't do anything when Goku has fought and trained with millenia old gods since the beginning.
I mean, this is manga namek saga goku, at best he’s fought king piccolo and trained with king Kai/Kami.
Also yes, mark being older just means he’s fighting longer, it doesn’t automatically make him better, hence why Goku has a better fighting technique. Anyone should realistically know exprience only helps you so much in a fight and in this fight it doesn’t help mark at all.
But thats my whole point though like you said, even though he may have fought longer it doesn't put him near Goku's overall fighting technique so Mark's experience fighting this long doesn't actually matter if it doesn't give him an advantage or put him on even level with Goku which is why I mentioned old beings like Kami and King Kai. Goku is waaay stronger than many beings who have more experience and are older than him.
….yes that’s the point, that’s why I gave Goku “way better actual training”.
Legit the one thing I gave Mark in this case is something that doesn’t matter at all. You’re putting too much thought into this.
Im not giving to much thought about it lmao Im responding back to you. Dont feel some way just because I questioned you on something WE BOTH AGREE doesn't actually do anything for Mark. Which was my whole argument.
not saying i disagree that goku wins but why is he ftl by namek saga?
Mark has an experience advantage? Tf?
https://preview.redd.it/cayzl8cuobdg1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=91e97091441a7081ce52cf39f3fefef2d8dbd641
The Goat takes it.
This Goku can do Kaioken x10 so he is 900k
Goku solos the verse
3,000 vs 90,000 is crazy lol
Saiyan Saga Goku could conjure up a Kamehameha powerful enough to obliterate a planet. By that order of magnitude, Namek saga Goku clears.
This is (non super saiyan) Goku that could keep up with Frieza the planet buster and easily defeat ginyu force that trashed vegeta. (which include one hit (well, elbow combo) the very durable recoom and outpace the universe fastest, burter)
he should be able to keep up with invicible easy but this technically namek goku should also include super saiyan 1 goku which at that point its good bye invicible.
LOL , try Yamcha first
Goku negs
Invincible couldn’t destroy a planet without help from three other people and a dwarf star level going to Cheez it
Goku passively can destroy entire stars with no issue. Remember the ballpark to destroy a planet is in the 10,000 rages. Goku is nine times stronger than the worst planet, buster and even then we had characters with a power level as weak as 160 destroy the moon to a dwarf star level degree due to the size and yield of the explosion so no invincible splattering himself against Goku and there’s really no argument
The moon is only small planet level.
Only db scalers will see a moon being destroyed and say "Yeah that's a dwarf star level feat".
if I use a Tsar-bomb to nuke a can of coke in space, the only thing its destroying is said can of coke - therefor, its sub-wall level.
I agree, coke level nuke.
If I use a (already calculated amount of force) to destroy something that doesn't require that much force is not an anti feat because we already know the value of the explosion.
If you're trying to quantify the strength of something based on the evidence of what you've seen it do, then it's actually relevant.
Jesus why do I read these threads?
If I need a moon to be moon level with an attack with low ap.
Wait till you find out their are dwarf stars that is only abit bigger then the moon
And the smaller ones are called white dwarf stars
Wait till you remember that dwarf stars are millions of millions of millions of times denser than the moon and that size =/= mass whatsoever
black holes has the mass far greater than the largest of stars but most are smaller than the earth
Roshi being able to destroy the moon is a moon level feat, a white dwarf is millions of times more denser than the moon. a single teaspoon of white dwarf material would weigh several thousand pounds.
A single teaspoon of basalt from the moon weighs 7 grams
They’re the same radius, but one is far far more massive due to density
Like imagine swimming through water vs swimming through solid lead.
One is a lot harder to do than the other because of density.
Well by that logic all moons are stars. Or maybe a dwarf star the size of a moon is significantly more dense than a moon and therefore not a reasonable comparison.
This just in! A new report claims that a small star is a small star and a moon is a moon.
Destroying a moon is moon level, idc abt anything else.
Then destroying a dwarf star is also moon level I don’t understand your logic
Dwarf stars are far, far more dense than
My logic is that destroying a moon is moon level and no amount of vaporization is going to upscale that. Toriyama just didn't want to draw a massive amount of debris, that's it.
Bro moon level is = dwarf star level lol
Both can be bigger and smaller then each other
Sure, why not use other metrics than what is generally agreed upon in powerscaling. Spoken like a true american.
Goku should win.
This Goku is well above planetary and iirc invincible top tiers barely reach that.
It’s atleast a fight though, emperor invincible should be the strongest in history.
Roshi destroys EOS Mark no contest. Never mind Namek Goku. Namek Goku is a GOD in the invincible Universe.
He only need a little bottle xD
Roshi would probably lose to tech jacket
Let's see. Honestly all we can say about Invincible is that he upscales from his fight with Thragg and is likely the strongest Viltrumite we've seen. He should scale above peak Thragg who is arguably planet level just off of his ability to 3v1 Thadeus, Mark and Nolan at the time of the Viltrum feat, even if you don't think Mark, Nolan or Thadeus are planetary, Thragg at the time was so much stronger none of them were a threat to him, even together with Space Racer he should no-sell. I'd argue EOS Invincible has AT LEAST Planetary Durability with a low-ball Multi-continental striking and lifting strength. His BIQ isn't anything special but he's a good brawler and clearly capable of holding his own in a fight but if it did come down to straight hands he's not keeping up with Goku in an equal CQC scenario. Now, for 90k Namek Saga Goku, he has Kaioken (up to 20x) and with a PL of 90k he is at least 11x stronger than he was against Vegeta on Earth, even more if you don't believe PL is linear. Vegeta was capable of destroying the Earth and Goku has been a moon buster since Dragonball; with 20x Kaioken his stats are jumping immensely. Low-ball relativistic reaction speed for Raditz but considering he could speed blitz the people throwing around relativistic attacks (.98c is the calc for the moon bust based on Anime Travel time, if it's instant which the Manga is ambiguous enough to allow then it's 1c.) meaning Goku with a PL of 416 is SOL if we're only SLIGHTLY generous, if we're not he's relativistic. Regardless he's 4,358X more powerful with max Kaioken at this point and if PL is linear his speed should scale with it meaning he should be at least Mutli-planetary, if not reaching Stellar levels of strength and MFTL. He's hitting much, much harder than Mark can take, the issue comes down to speed as some people have calculated Mark's speed (low-ball) at Millions of Times FTL which is hundreds of thousands of times faster than Goku at the time, especially with no filler to lean on for Speed feats. The real question is can Invincible even damage Goku? Probably not, he's also several outclassed in terms of pure strength meaning Goku isn't pulling any grapples off to any real effect; if he can get Invincible to stand still long enough or, more likely, maneuver him into a trap or even just catch him off guard Goku wins this. If Invincible can outlast Goku for long enough he has a wincon of defeating an exhausted Goku as without his Ki Goku is superhuman but not to the level of fighting Mark.
Long post, TLDR Goku should be at least Mutli-planetary with MFTL combat speed while Mark is probably Planetary at a highball with MFTL+ speed, it Mark can outlast Goku without taking a hit he can win by wearing Goku down, otherwise he just outright loses, assuming they're just trying beat one another, in an all out fight where Goku is matching Mark's Strength and Mark is slowing down for Goku I give it to Goku on account of the skill gap, Mark never shows real combat skill and is mostly just a brawler who relies on his Dura and Strength while Goku is noted by others to be a genius tactician and skilled Martial Artist.
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Goku
Is there a difference betwen anime and Manga goku that makes it so Mark has a chance to win? Because mark isnt tanking a planet buster attack from goku or vegeta pre namek so is the only question is EOS combat speed fast enough to blitz goku of dodge ki beams. And I frankly dont know since even conquest isnt fast enough from what we saw in TV series and hes the number 2 strongest viltrimite. Even if we were to fodderize conquest the difference and raise the power scaling by numerous levels to planet busting which i hear still isnt possible eos or at least easily possible it hard to imagine EOS Mark is going to scale that much faster and stronger.
Dbz just has really wanked inconsistent scaling.
Invincible can survive in the vacuum of space while Goku can’t. What’s the point of being planetary if you can’t survive without it.
Invincible can survive in the vacuum of space, while Goku can't. What's the point of being a planet if you can't survive without it?
That's true, but Goku spent his time fighting opponents who could also survive the vacuum of space—Frieza, Cell, and Majin Buu—and he could still defeat them with a single blow.
This is just Goku during namek so cell and majin aren’t in the equation. And saying he defeated frieza in a single blow is an obvious exaggeration as he was still alive after his fight while obviously heavily wounded, but it should also be noted that Goku was pushed to his absolute limits at the time in this fight and only survived the post battle because he was able to find a ship to escape the planet.
I’d also argue mark is far more durable than frieza is during this arc and would not die in a single blow.
I meant that the current Goku could defeat every villain in DBZ in one hit.
I highly doubt Mark is more resilient, since even during the destruction of Viltrum they tried their best to avoid the planet's explosion.
How does not trying to make a planet explode make a person less resilient?
Marks best feats are his justifiable many times the speed of light , but his travel speed legit does not carry over to his combat at all at all it’s crazy so it dosent even matter unless he wants to run away , Goku doesn’t know instant transmission yet
So Goku fights mark on a reasonable level , notices that mark isn’t getting stronger and goes to kill him , if mark somehow survives he runs away and Goku has to leave him
Thragg caps at Raditz level, Mark is just 2x stronger lol
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I see several post about the disagreement of Piccolo's Moon feat being Large Planet Level or Higher.
I think people forget that there are major factors that come into play to way it grants a higher tier beyond Moon Level:
- The Moon was BEYOND just Vaporized, it was basically erased from existence (easily AT LEAST 20000x damage multiplier)
- The Speed of the blast, which also multiplies its power
- How casual the feat was done. Piccolo did not even need to charge up any ki before preforming the feat.
But lets say we don't use all the technical talk and just reduce this to a casual conversation. Do you know how HUGE the moon is? Imagine seeing someone erase the Moon, LITERALLY in the blink of a eye, didn't even break a sweat.
That person then turns to look at you and says he could destroy hundreds of planets.
You wouldn't believe him?
You really need to go back to Gokus fight with king piccolo to give anybody in invincible a chance. Once you hit the saiyan saga after he dies beating raditz, he’s surpassed anything in the invincible verse.
Beginning of Z goku is more fair.
Goku shitmixes.
His striking strength scales to his ki blast strengh and at this point he can pop planets effortlessly.
No one in Invincible ever gets strong enough to blow up a planet on their own. It took three physical top tiers and hax help from a fourth to blow up Viltrum and all three still nearly died in the process.
mark could be named beak goku and he still aint beating goku
A 1000 PL Cooler survived in the Sun.
Well, Namek Goku, with his current power level, should be at least Large Planet because he surpasses Vegeta's power by about 4 or 5 times. This doesn't include the Kaioken, which at x10 should take him to Brown Dwarf/Small Star (depending on how you interpret Frieza's feat of destroying Planet Vegeta). Mark is at most Small Planet, and his only advantage is Speed, which won't help him much considering he'll break his hand hitting Goku. So, Goku wins.
Goku combat speed is MFTL+ because he dodged a blast from Frieza. Frieza used a blast that traveled to a planet in a second or possibly less. So Goku casually dodging a blast from Frieza at a even closer range is what grants MFTL+ speed.
However, movement speed is actually less. But that doesn't matter in this scenario if Mark can't do anything to physically hurt Goku (which should be a strike that is at least 1000x planet level).
Goku has a power level of 90,000. Goku could destroy the planet already with a power level above 10,000 in the Saiyan saga. In dragon ball, speed correlates with power. Now imagine Goku at 90k but he still has the Kaioken which would boost his power level to 1.8 million. I am pretty sure Goku easily beast EOS Invincible
Goku uses him as a small warm up
EOS Mark is lowball multi-continental, planetary AT BEST. Goku was well beyond Planetary when he fought NAPPA. Even if you lowball it, he was bare minimum Planetary against Vegeta. By the time he REACHES Namek? Bro could feasibly destroy a few planets on his own.
Just using the DB manga, emperor mark is a bit too fast for this goku to reliably hit. They’re both MFTL, but mark is considerably more so without anime feats. The problem for mark though is that he can’t hurt goku and would probably hurt himself trying, so unless he brings the fight to space this is either a stalemate or mark splattering himself on a brick wall
Person who can destroy a planet an arc ago vs person who can’t unless the planet has a destabilized core and two other people are helping him. Hmmm… I think Goku takes this one.
Goku
OK, so Roshi destroyed the moon at a power level of 139.
The Earth is 86 times as dense as the moon and therefore 86 times as hard to destroy for this. That means you need a power level of 12k to blow up the Earth.
Goku has a power level eight times that which he can increase to 80 times that at will.
The three strongest working together on an unstable planet weren’t sure they could destroy one planet.
Goku
Mark obviously has speed, because I mean, Snake Way.
Combat attack power easily goes to Goku. Being stronger than the Vegeta who could've destroyed the Earth just puts him above Mark in terms of destructive power.
Tank stats though? Goku almost died to 100x Earth gravity on his way to Namek. He's not nearly as durable as people think he is.
If Goku can land a hit? He'll win. If not? He'll just get destroyed. With that in mind? Speed should mean Mark takes the fight.
Goky annihalates mark in an actual fight, you could argue mark is faster but only in travel speed but in combat reactions nope. Strength, durability and dc is a massive stomp for goku.....sayian ark vegeta could annihalate a planet casually and this goku is leaps and bounds above him and marks endurance advantage is pointless when he cant even damage goku and any serious attack from goku will just annihalate him fullstop.
Mark does have a valid win condition though Goku being the silly goober he is might just play around with him and Mark can trick him into allowing him to blitz through the core of the planet and destabilize it. A serious weakness of most DB characters including Goku is that they cant survive in space despite their insane galaxy level feats and above. Goku would die in space and he does not have IT at this point and Marks arguably better travel speed would allow him to get away from Goku and accomplish the planet killer especially since Goku dosent start fights bloodlusted.
Goku doesn’t have a sun disk feat so invincible
Goku is outright stronger without even using kaioken, it only takes a PL of 10k to destroy a planet, goku at 90k is bodying mark and the rest of the verse
Goku shitstomps. In terms of sheer Viltrumite AP alone, they peak out at small planet. By that time Goku had beaten several easy planet busters.
Goku one shots Emperor Invincible
Remember that Master Roshi could blow up the moon when Goku was a kid and Goku became more powerful than him
No matter how fast they can travel , their fighting speed is comparatively quite slow
We should try and get Mark past Saiyan Saga Vegeta first tbh
mark high diff
Goku neggs
Mark gets neg diffed
Goku If he uses Kaioken Times 10(Which he's stated he can do) has a powerlevel of 900,000.
This is nearly 2x as much as first form frieza,who with a finger could destroy planet vegeta to about a Star Level feat.
Mark should be about Planet Via The Viltrum feat. ÷ that by 3 and it should be Small Planet Level.
Mark should have a decent speed advantage tho but by invincible logic He just punches goku and obliterates into multiple pieces lol
All in all Goku wins imo
Completely featless tbh so might as well lose since Mark never shows anything higher than low planetary as opposed to the multiple times planetary Goku even without kaioken
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Why you the worse matchup constantly pop up
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Op: “Goku vs mark for billionth time—DOPE”
Goku no diffs. Even if mark is 10000 times faster or whatever, it's like putting a fly against an elephant.
Mark tries to hit him and just hurts himself, that's all that would happen.
Didn't Master Roshi blow up the moon with relative ease? And isn't this Goku stronger than 1st form Frieza who blew up Vegeta(The Planet) with relative ease?
I'm not sure if Mark can even now destroy a planet by himself...
Comparing those two universe is pointless since they have wildly different scaling
Viltrumite have other benefits saiyans dont have
Such as their abilities to breath in space, near immortal durability and more importantly, ridiculous long lifespan
If Viltrumite where sent to the DBZ universe I truly wonder how strong they'd get after mastering Qi
Anyway the only way a Mark could win is if he destroyed the planet and pulled goku in place but even then he'd kill all the people there and goku could escape.
He wouldnt do anything like that.
So really Goku is garanteed a win
Goku
Goku beat except speed viltrumites have higher speed at this stage (travel) not reflex but Durability wil be deciding factor.If this is goku who is fighting frieza then GOKU Wins!.
BoS Goku in Z would win. Mark doesn’t get past Raditz
Invincible is cooked🥀
Not a big invincible power scaler... But Goku should clear, honestly Invincible belongs more in the Saiyan arc or early Namek.
Regardless of how you wanna try to get an AP calc for Goku? It will be significantly above all but the most generous interpretations of invincible. Like if you wanna take Roshi Moon busting, daizenshuu saying 23rd Budokai moon busts, Piccolo Moon busting, or like daizenshuu saying 10k = able to destroy planets. 90k Goku is significantly above planetary... Which is kinda invincible verse's peak.
Speed wise both are just contentious amounts of FTL. With reacting to laser attacks being a consistent action in both series. And like random calc stacks or whatever. Invincible often having the asterisk of long distance travel speed in space, and possibly some weird hax to amp his space travel speed... And then like Dragonball being inconsistent at times with like Goku outrunning Taioken, but then other times being hit by seemingly slower attacks.
And then... Well, even if we kinda just say "equal stats" ... Goku is the famous martial arts master, Invincible is kind of just a street fighter, it'd probably go like Goku vs Caulifla in the TOP... And then obviously there's the whole thing of Goku has super powers beyond strength and flight. That Invincible doesn't. Invincible can't really make beams, they can't sense energy, they can't make a blinding flash of light, etc.
I love goku, but Emperor Mark bodies him so hard it's actually silly
This isn't even a contest. Goku destroys Mark and does the "I thought you were stronger" meme.
This provokes a better question I hope someone asks. When in his story did Goku become stronger than Omni Man?
I’ve always wondered this 😂
Well, it’s stated that a power level of 10k is needed to destroy a planet, since no mass is stated, I assume earth sized.
90k is 9 times that, so goku (no kaioken) can destroy a planet around 20x the mass of earth (with kamehameha’s 2.2x multiplier)
With kaioken he can go up to 20x
So that’s 1.8million x 2.2 for the kamehameha = 3.96million
So at max power goku can destroy a planet that is 396x the mass of earth
Jupiter is 318x the mass of earth, for context
So Goku is solidly in the large planet level at maximum power
Now for [Title Card]
A considerably weaker mark was able to destroy a planet with assistance
A considerably weaker mark fought thragg inside the sun, and if I remember correctly, they reached the core
And they fought for several minutes
Taking Star level damage for considerable time means mark has at least small star level durability at the time of the fight with thragg
mark (thragg fight) has small star level stats, far above goku during his initial landing on namek, even with the kaioken x 20
And this is EOS mark, while we don’t know how much stronger he is, we know he’s stronger
Viltrumites grow with age, mark is 500 years older in EOS
Mark has insane potential for growth, he went from sub Thula (a weaker viltrumite) to going blow for blow with thragg in just a couple years.
Now imagine 500 years of growth
I’m gonna give him a small amount of high ball and just state he’s Star level in terms of Strength/Durability
In terms of speed viltrumites are already just faster, that’s just how it is (thank you Nolan for your Virgo super cluster in 2 weeks feat)
So basically mark blitzes and oneshots
Except he wouldn’t do that because he and goku are both good so they’d probably just hang out and get space beers or sum shit
Lifting strength, stamina and max speed goes to Mark, literally everything goes to Goku with Goku low to no diffing.
There's a lot of guesswork around Mark at the end of the series, but I seriously doubt he's in this ballpark. He's maybe a planet buster by this point maybe. Huge maybe.
He'd probably kill Nappa and lose to Vegeta when he first arrived on earth.
So equal to Goku against Nappa and Vegeta without the kaioken.
I wouldn't get that specific because we don't see any feats from him. I just know Mark was probably around continent level after he killed Conquest, but Allen still kicked the shit out of him. End of Series Mark beats Allen in a fight, seemingly handily. And Allen might have even undergone another powerup.
So I'd say small planet level, maybe able to destroy earth if he really tried. I'd say somewhere between Nappa and Vegeta, and I don't think I can safely guess where in there he is.
Viltrumites are probably somewhere between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Two in power level averages.