I saw these cat size comparison arts by A-N-T-Z posted in prehistoric subs and thought about this. Does this lion have the highest estimate currently?

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  • Mosbach lion seems to be the biggest at 440kg, followed closely by Smilodon populator at 436kg for the biggest skull. I have heard there are even bigger specimens for other saber-toothed cats out there but I don't really buy it.

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    The difference between 440kg and 436kg is literally a rounding error.

    I don't think you can say Mosbach lion is the largest, but you can say than there are none larger.

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    My bad. I initially wanted to say at the current Mosbach lion seems to be the biggest but I was half-asleep so my wording seems kinda off.

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    That's basically the same size

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    Yeah I guess 4kg isn't that big of a difference.

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    It's basically a calculation error worth of difference.

    Also one meal would be enough to make either heavier

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    It really depends on how much meat they can gorge on in a single meal.

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    Tell that to my wife.

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    Are these other saber-toothed cats species of Amphimachairodus?

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  • The estimate of approximately 1.50 m in shoulder height for the Mosbach lion is no longer considered reliable in current studies. This value arose mainly from older works and popular science literature, based on indirect extrapolations from body length or mass, and not from osteometric regressions specific to shoulder height. With advances in morphometric analyses, researchers began using direct measurements of long bones (such as the femur, tibia, and humerus) compared to modern large felines, leading to more conservative and biomechanically plausible estimates. These studies indicate that the Mosbach lion was primarily more robust and heavier, but not much taller than the largest lions today, with a shoulder height likely between 1.20 and 1.30 m (The maximum value considered today is 130 cm. Values above this are now interpreted only as theoretical extremes, not as representative measurements of the species. However, estimates of maximum weight remain between 400 and 500 kg (Something around 440 kg). He was probably the biggest and heaviest lion, but he still isn't the biggest cat. Sorry for my terrible English.

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    but he still isn't the biggest cat

    So who was?

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    The largest (and consequently the heaviest) is the Ngandong tiger (specimen NM2641). Specimen NM2641 has an estimated shoulder height of 135/136 cm, with a maximum weight ranging from 470 to 550 kg. (Some say its weight is between 360 and 424 kg, but this is disproportionately light and doesn't match the size of specimen NM2641, even if the body density were low... This weight would be that of a Unhealthy animal) Comparison between a Ngandong tiger at maximum size and an average Bengal tiger (1 meter tall at the shoulder and approximately 225 kg)

    https://preview.redd.it/4jhb8e5rnz8g1.png?width=960&format=png&auto=webp&s=fa3a1f05f8474ddaf2ea801e572dac47e719f346

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    Where did you got those values and how this individual's size was calculated?

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    this is too fragmentary to consider the largest felid species since we don’t know what genus it falls under outside of just being “bornean tiger” or even “p.t. soloensis sp.”

    the height is plausible but even an animal averaging 480 kg is dubious, not even S. populator or the Mosbach lion had average masses this high (anywhere between 350-400 kg) and even with scaling from the ngandong tiger specimens or modern tigers, a mandible/cranium still leaves much to be desired by way of measurement while you could consider this to be an extraordinary individual, we don’t have enough data to conclusively say it’s the largest felid ever on average, smilodon populator and panthera fossilis take that title

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    400-500 kg would still be the biggest

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  • This is definitely oversizing Fossilis unfortunately, a pretty consistent historic occurrence.

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  • My comparison regarding the Mosbach lion is more reliable; please feel free to examine it. I have listed the sources in the explanation section. here

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  • Why are the silhouettes posed up like car salespeople 😭

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    slaps cat

    This baby can fit so many Megatherium in it.

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    cat slaps back

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  • 1,110 pounds, 9.75 feet long 5.62 tall is healthy big for this guy, but 2,250 lbs, 11-12 feet long and 6 tall is an absolute unit of a giant.

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  • Probably not, the problem is that people use different studies with different formulas to compare which is completely unreliable.

    If we compare using the same formulas for the same bones then, if memory serves me right, the largest cat is the Ngandong tiger with the largest femur of any pantherine cat and the largest (reconstructed) skull of any cat (Again if memory serves me right).

    Given the sample size for the Ngandong tiger is absolutely tiny, it's fair to say it was probably the largest, getting swole off eating Javan rhinos and dwarf elephants.

    The largest specimen was a mandible that averages 420 kg based on three different formulae, second largest is a femur which predicts ~394 kg then a humerus and skull that predict something around 360 kg.

    Some saber-tooth might have been larger though, I'm not very familiar with them.

    Also the sizes for modern cats in this chart is exaggerated, the largest tiger ever actually measured by scientists was a Siberian tiger from the Ussuri region, named 'Circa', at 306.5 kg but Siberian tigers no longer achieve these sizes, the largest modern tiger ever measured by scientists is a tie between two Bengal tigers from the Terai region, 'Sauraha' and 'Baghmara' who both bottomed Dr. Eric Dinerstein's scales of 272 kg.

    The largest lion ever actually measured by scientists was a giant lion from the Kalahari basin who weighed 260 kg but Dr. Hu Berry stated the animal had 20 kg of stomach content so c.240 kg empty.

    I don't actually think it had much stomach content but if we accept that it did. The largest lion measured by scientists would be Scar, also from the Kalahari basin, who weighed 246 kg in Dr. MacFarlane's thesis.

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    1. What are shoulder height and body length do you propose for the largest Ngandong tiger specimen ?

    2. Is Ngandong tiger closely related to modern tigers ?

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    1. Last time I calculated it was 140 cm shoulder height and 230 cm head to body length for the specimen NM-2641 although this was using Panna TR's body measurements as a reference. I might update this later as I have a much bigger database with measurements from the Terai region in India and the Western ghats.

    2. Same species but it was it's own subspecies.

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    Would the update make Ngandong tiger bigger or smaller than your previous estimate ?

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    Longer but shorter, maybe around 240 cm head to body length with 130 cm height but I'll need to actually calculate it.

    Same body weight

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    130cm SH is very tall for a tiger.

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    The tallest modern (published) tiger was 128 cm tall so yes but not for a prehistoric animal.

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    Did this 128cm tall tiger have a name ? And was the measurement scientifically verified ?

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    It seems to me like there are multiple P-111 tigers. Or am I missing something ?

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  • Isn't there some talk about Panthera atrox maybe being larger than the Mosbach lion?

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  • I thought Machairodus lahayishupup was the biggest?

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    smilodon populator and panthera fossilis outweigh on average and with max weights but its probably the 3rd or 4th largest

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