Next joint project should rope in every nation in Europe plus America, Canada, and probably Mexico - then assign the part they’re responsible for via Mario Cart item box or a hat full of names. That way, everybody gets one part and if they fuck it up we can assign it to somebody else.
This is totally a reasonable request and won’t lead to absolute tomfuckery, I am assured of it by the little cricket on my shoulder.
Boeing tried that approach with developing the 787. They outsourced most of the R&D to their suppliers and also expected their suppliers to figure out the requirements for the individual components.
787 predictably ran into delays with parts that didn’t quite fit together. And after having most of their engineers deal with that self-inflicted dumpster fire, Boeing realized they also needed to update the 737 and were very much behind Airbus on offering a modern mid-sized product to the airline industry.
The problem is, whether the 80% thing is correct or not, Trappier has very explicitly said that anything less than outright majority control is unacceptable, which is really the core issue. How much beyond 50% is somewhat ancillary at that point.
And, again, whether it's fair for France to have an equal share as the other members or not, that's the deal they agreed and committed to. If it was impossible for them, they should have mentioned that at the start, not years into the project at a crunch point.
It has been said by Dassault from the start. They always wanted to be able to have the final word on the conception of the fighter and that was also more or less what was agreed at the beginning with them being designated as the manager of the project. They are calling for a nEuron style cooperation from the beginning. Also, at the beginning it was 50/50 between Airbus Germany and Dassault. Spain joined later and now they are asking for 2/3 Airbus and 1/3 Dassault despite Dassault being the one who is supposed to lead the project.
And just to be clear, the fighter isn't the only part of the FCAS program and Germany is supposed to lead other parts of it.
Let me guess, we get something immensely important like the paint?
that was also more or less what was agreed at the beginning with them being designated as the manager of the project.
"Manager" isn't the same as "benevolent dictator". You can absolutely manage something any still have everyone have a voice, contrary to what Dassault is now demanding.
You already have 2 pillars, the drone, and the combat cloud, which is already pretty nice, considering ADS Germany's last project was the Barracuda, of which they crashed one, and the Eurodrone, which still doesn't exist, despite starting in 2013. As for the combat cloud, you literally hired IBM because no company in Germany is capable of developing it.
Airbus would still have a voice, but they wouldn't be able to veto Dassault's decision every time the subcontractor they choose for a certain part is French instead of German or Spanish, which is the current situation.
I swear to god, you're really not helping debunk the french arrogance trope... I mean: Oh thank you dear french overlords for granting us the add ons in a joint project where we're equal partners so selflessly!
Dassault's decision every time the subcontractor they choose for a certain part is French instead of German or Spanish
Let me guess: Dassault so far consistently chose only french subcontractors?
French is project leader on the New Generations Fighter and on the Power Unit while Germany is project leader on the Combat Cloud and the Remote Carriers so yeah, the task have been attributed equally.
(Spain is in charge of Sensors and Enhanced Low Observability)
I swear to god, you're really not helping debunk the french arrogance trope... I mean: Oh thank you dear french overlords for granting us the add ons in a joint project where we're equal partners so selflessly!
Bro you're the one who started this by sarcastically claiming in a very passive aggressive way that you'd only get the paint, you don't get call other people out on their tone.
Fact is that Germany is leading multiple aspect of the FCAS and they used to have a 49% part on NGF itself until Spain joined in. You're not getting bread crumbs, and it's not France's fault that your work share in the NGF were reduced by Spain's involvement.
It's not French arrogance, it's stating facts. The German aero industry isn't as competent as the French or British aero industry, hence the requirement for joint ventures based in Germany, with equal industrial shares and shared development, so German companies can pick up IP and processes from their British and French analogues. Same thing now with Rheinmetall partnering up with a bunch of American companies to make drones and missiles in Europe, to grow their technological know-how.
Dassault's claim has always been the same. They chose the best athlete, the company that has the best product. Let's take an example, Thales put an AESA radar on the Rafale in service in 2013. There isn't a single EF Typhoon with a German AESA Radar in service. So Thales has had 12 years to work on an AESA radar, in service, in every possible operational theatre, they're bound to have a leg up in some aspects, so they likely (not definitely, but likely) can put out a better product.
So yes, there's likely a lot of French subcontractors being chosen, but considering Dassault made the nEUROn with 6 other countries, they're also okay with giving other companies their workshare, when they bring something to the table. The only multi-national project ADS Germany has lead so far still doesn't have a single flying prototype.
But hey, it's just a matter of Dassault and France looking at the EF Typhoon's development, realising it cost more to develop than the Rafale, entered service after the Rafale, and has a similar unit cost despite having more made, and thinking that an equal share joint venture like the EF consortium is inefficient.
Of course Dassault is better than the companies we have. But you can't afford to build a modern plane by yourself.
So if Dassault wants billions in german and spanish taxpayers money, they better play nice to at least some degree. Because the way it looks like right now, we'll get the same result out of semi-joining GCAP, just without having to deal with Trappiers and your MoD's bullshit.
Dassault and France can boast about your technological edge all you want - right now, you're not building a plane either. And we got more options than you.
Mate, France is designing and building its own nuclear carrier, submarines and nuclear deterrence. These costs a lot more money than designing a fighter jet, especially considering that those won't generate money as they won't be exported.
France could absolutely afford to build and design a new fighter jet by themselves. It would be suboptimal for sure, but if it has to come down to it they will. Especially since, once again, a fighter jet can be exported and turned into a money maker beyond the initial investment, like almost every aircraft made by Dassault and used by the French military were.
Also, lmao at the attack on France's MoD. Last I checked it's Germany that bailed out on the Tiger Mk.III program leaving France and Spain to carry it out alone, and the MGCS program is also at a standstill ever since Germany decided to bow to Rheinmetal's whining about not being included.
Yeah the French MoD surely pulls off some bullshit, but acting as if they're the only ones and that poor Germany is a victim is both very funny and just plain false.
Yes, Dassault will bankrupt France just to make a plane fly, and the EU will just watch on as the second biggest economy in the block goes bankrupt, as that would surely have no impact on the rest of the union. There's no other scenario.
Anyway, I could make the same argument that if ADS Germany and Spain wants Dassault, Thales and Safran IP, they better play nice to at least some degree. It works both way. Seemingly MTU and Safran have found an agreement.
In the end, who knows who's being unreasonable? The company that has made planes for the past 80 years, and is asking for 51% work share and a clear leader role, or the company that has made nothing since 2006, keeps claiming Dassault wants 80% of the entire project, even though it itself already has an uncontested lead on two pillars and is involved in 5 pillars in total, which is the most out of every company working on FCAS?
As for options, both Germany and France will be dependent on other nation's goodwill. Maybe the UAE or India want to help fund a French NGF, maybe the GCAP group let's Germany have their own systems and final assembly line. Or maybe they only allow them to buy the finished product, and France has to cut back on it's 6th gen ambitions without funding. Who knows what the future holds.
My brother in British exceptionalism delusions, the nEUROn is the continuation of the Duc series of drones from the late '90s. If you think the nEUROn and Taranis look alike, you need glasses.
You usually expect a fairly standard set of things from a radar, or an RWR, or whatever technical solution you're testing, that's common across the world, but maybe there's a cigarette ash tolerance standard the others are lagging behind.
Sure, it's not like the ACX started development at the same time as the EAP, was fully on French funds, like the EAP was fully on British funds, and ultimately flew a month before the EAP did.
My brother in Christ neuron is a BAE taranis filled with croissants and brie and a beret taped on top.
False. It's derived from the Dassault AVE which predates the Taranis.
Probably just so happens dassaults requirements for best athlete is frequent le joggings to the boulangerie.
Germany has not designed a combat aircraft since WW2, and both the Tornado and Eurofighter were very dependent on BAe's knowledge (especially the Eurofighter with the EAP).
Dassault on the other hand has been designing military aircraft since 1929 and made the first production European supersonic fighter (Super Mystere) and first European mach 2 fighter (Mirage III) and even made some record breaking aircraft like the Mirage IV.
It's not even debatable that Dassault was the better choice for leading the project.
And borrowed from it reducing its r&D costs
Dassault didn't need the Eurofighter program to develop a twin engine delta canard aircraft, they had already flown the Mirage 4000 and were doing R&D work on the ACX (which had far more influence on the Rafale than the Eurofighter).
I mean, Dassault made the nEUROn on time, within budget, as the clear leader, with 6 partners. ADS Germany still hasn't made a single Eurodrone prototype, and it's been 12 years since the proposal, and no one even wants the thing anymore, not even Germany.
They agreed to the current organisation for phase 1b. Phase 1b is not going well, Dassault wants a change, they're free to do so, as Phase 2 hasn't been signed yet.
Bunch of different reasons, they tried to pull the same redesign and workshare shenanigans that they are blaming the french for right now. Similar clash to what is happening now with Germany wanting something tamer than what the other country wants and arguing that it shouldn't pay for capabilities it doesn't need. Fair point but shouldn't be something you apparently discover once the project already started.
They kept threatening to withdraw (and actually did for a bit) to force renegociations and cut production when they later decided spending money on defense was less important.
But the biggest issue by far is their repeated vetos for international sales that the UK tried to do. Notably when trying to sell to Turkey, Qatar and Saudi Arabia. They cock-blocked the UK for decades on that front and lost them a fuckton of money.
Through the negotiating genius of our current government, we will pay you 739 trillion Euros for the privilege of redesigning GCAP to your specifications then giving it to you for free.
mfw I want Europe to upgrade their defenses so we in the us dont have to baby sit them, yet they STILL pull shit like this. Smh, man, at least the UK-led coalition’s doing fine.
I think the GCAP should refuse to let anyone else in beyond licensed prod and domestic weapons integration, they're doing good and they shouldn't jinx it.
frankly their program’s moving pretty well, I’m also glad Japan could take part in the programs as an observer at least. Who knows, maybe Germany’s gonna be one of the first customers if this whole FCAS thing goes to shit
I'll see us either getting a minor stake in GCAP because we'd order a lot, or something with Spain and maybe Sweden.
For the former speaks that there have been a bunch of vague statements from Italy and the UK already, basically adding fuel to the fire of FCAS by not ruling out taking another country in.
I want to say good luck, your requirements are closer to GCAP but BAe will be even worse than us when it comes to the work share and Sweden has always done lightweight fighter so that's not really your play.
Does this somehow negate the fact that Rheinmetall, almost single-handedly, decided to do something without waiting for the government to order these shells from them? Like, remember some European arms manufacturer saying they could ramp up production to a few months where it used to take years, but they need a government order to do so. Again, both the Czechs and Rheinmetall have one thing in common: they produce so many shells only because Ukraine needs them. And before anyone points out that Ukraine receives funding, I want to remind you that Ukraine doesn't receive all the funding (although I'm not going to pretend that this funding isn't important, but still, without Ukraine, it would be nearly impossible for both the Czechs and the Germans to ramp up production. Because Ukraine actually has a major advantage over all these European politicians: it can tell anyone who screams about buying shells to go to hell.
Rheinmetal and Nammo are working with the Czechs for this. Supposedly Rheinmetal is expanding there production, too, but from what I've been able to find it's all mainly planned stuff
According to Rheinmetall, they've already increased their shell production by 10 times and strive for 20x in 2026. 700,000 shells in 2025, of course I don't know how much they are on track.
“Oh yeah it needs to be built for these new requirements of fighting in Africa. You know, for reasons. Yeah I know you guys don’t go to Africa but we do, so we need it.”
“Also we need to have most of the production done in our country to capitalize on the economic benefits. Only fair for all the planning we did for this.”
“What do you guys get? You guys get to fund it, of course! And then buy it when we finish making our design.”
Even the german budgetary office, which is normally the most unfunny institution we have (and thats a low bar already), called FCAS a "'Rafale Plus' approach financed by German and Spanish budget funds".
No, the budgetary office is a fucking meme of bureaucrats going by every letter of the law, that will fuck up reasonable proposals because they detect what could be overspending.
Theyre the vogons of the german state. They really dont care.
"File the paperwork again! You used the wrong ink color! And where's the pre-application form for the application form?! And you should have faxed it, not mailed it!"
but a small carrier, so it can't be a true multirole, and a old catobar at that, so the structure needs to be hardened and can't have a internal bomb bay, yeah the thing every other modern plane has.
Every naval fighter has a reinforced under carriage and landing gear.
The F-35C has an internal bomb bay and is launched by the exact same catapult the French use. The Chinese J-35 has an internal bomb bay, yet is launched on EMALS.
sir, this is a wendy's. you are telling me facts as if i was the person at dassault that said "hon hon, we can't fit this cause of that" and i needed convincing to write out a favorable report. the fact i am at reddit should tell you that i am, in fact, not.
I simply state that this is the excuse/reason used to reject said german payload requirements.
As far as I'm aware, the French, Spanish and German MoD have agreed for the NGF to be a twin-engine stealth fighter in the 15t class, and the issues are purely industrial at this point regarding the NGF.
But if you have a source for german payload requirements, or the absence of an internal weapons bay on an stealthy design, I'd like to read it.
"Let's compromise the ability of three major European airforces so that one of us can field a single carrier that probably won't be operational for six months out of every year."
The Rafale is not less capable than the Eurofighter so it doesn't compromise any air force, and the CdG has taken part in every military operation that France has been involved in since it has entered service. In fact it's probably one of the carrier in service that has been the most active. The whole "CdG is always undergoing maintenance" is pure horseshite.
Was point two ever publicly mentioned? Also French air doctrine hasn't been focused on Africa since the 1960s, if the Rafale had been built with Africa in mind it would be a very different aircraft.
I’m mostly conflating all the ideas of their vehicles together. While I can’t speak on the Rafale, the AMX-10 and Jaguar are built far more with Africa in mind than many other European tanks.
Point two is just a part of the negotiations on where the components and products are made.
The AMX-10RC was designed with the continental conflict in mind. The ERC-90 was the expeditionary vehicle. It's just that the French had the Brigade Légère Blindée concept, which is kinda the precursor of the medium force brigade that plenty of countries uses nowadays.
The Jaguar is a recon vehicle, they're just not retarded and trying to force a 40t+ tracked brick into the role like the Brits.
Considering France only has 180 soldiers advising Gabon and Centrafrique, and the base in Djibouti, that argument of African expeditions needs to die. It's just Russian propaganda you're spitting back out.
Every conflict France will take a part in will be expeditionary because they have to cross Europe to get to front line. There's barely enough trailers and railroad capacity to move a brigade from France to Romania in peace time, in war time, we'll have to move 1 French, 1 British, 1 German divisions, plus x Spanish/Belgian/Dutch/whatever brigades, all through Germany, all at the same time. At least the wheeled vehicles can move themselves, unless Germany doesn't mind having 600 MBTs carve up their highways.
It's funny how the industrial argument is made against France, but Germany's "I require joint ventures based in Germany, and require equal industrial share if not more despite contributing very little to the program" isn't an issue. Guess why the A400M's engine took forever to develop, hint, the issue wasn't at Safran or RR.
I then find your argument of compromising to work together very funny, because Germany is constantly compromising European strategic autonomy by partnering up with American companies (Kratos for drones, the Patriots instead of buying straight from MBDA France-Italy, IBM for the FCAS combat cloud). We also know that's it's much less efficient than having a clear leader, because Dassault made the Rafale for less money and less time than the EF consortium made the Typhoon, gave it an AESA radar an entire decade before any EF user did, and then Dassault made the nEUROn with 6 partner countries on time and within budget while the Eurodrone still doesn't fly, 12 years after ADS Germany proposed it.
I just find it funny how liberalism is great in Europe, especially when it comes to fucking over the French and their state-led economy and national champions, but when Germany comes up, suddenly it's all about equal shares and geo-returns and collaboration.
this is a very long and interesting discussion but the idea that france made wheeled vehicles for Africa is something of an urban legend. French doctrine prioritizes speedy maneuvers and infantry autonomy over shock-and-awe, and wheeled stuff makes more sense for that, even if a couple might get bugged down in the mud in Europe.
And for part two i don’t believe they asked for a majority of production in France? but I wouldn’t be surprised if they did, I just haven’t seen the source
There’s definitely been times of it in the past which I’d have to dig out.
The core issue of it is that a lot of these programs function in the mindset of a collective Europe and compromising all the parts to work together. France however, maintains a procurement mindset and doctrine closer to the US, of wanting strong domestic production and an expeditionary focus, which means they have a different focus, needs, and goals than much of Europe.
I don’t believe that’s exclusive to France. In fact, since 2015, France purchases a greater share of non-domestic EU weapons than Germany, while Germany mostly purchases from the US and Israel to fill domestic gaps
The 80% thing was confirmed both by hartpunkt and Reuters, among others. Trappier now backpeddaling because he realized that in terms of money, France has no money, is just damage control. And he absolutely is on record saying they need majority control or might leave.
Add in the french MoD adding pressure, this just reeks.
Point is, worst case we just buy into GCAP domestic production. Sure, not as good as actually developing something yourself, but good enough. France on the other side is running into a budget crisis. They need the financing, or they have no jet.
once again please read the article! the 80% figure came from a press leak of a letter where Dassault offered (and did not demand) to provide 80% of components for the prototype. Hartpunkt and Reuters had no information besides an out-of-context leak, so I don't hold it against them, but if this was true how come 1. it was never publicly stated anytime in the last ten years and 2. the CEO of Dassault claimed the opposite under oath in front of a parliamentary commission, on something they could very well fact check and then take him to court if he lied?
And as we all know, CEO's have never lied before /s
Hartpunkt and Reuters had no information besides an out-of-context leak
Both cite "unnamed sources" (which is typical for defense) and not some leak, and Reuters specifically says they got info from a confidential but official german government defense document explicitely confirming this.
I'm pretty sure our defense committee isn't lying to itself.
Dassault reputation and the previous experience on Rafael kinda disprove the point. The project wouldn't have this bad of a fallout over just miscommunication, it would have been clarified silently. What is far more probable was dassault trying to change up the agreement.
Yes, Dassault is trying to change up the agreement for phase 2, because phase 1b is going terribly due to Airbus vetoing any subcontractor choice that isn't German or Spanish.
Is there a proof? This isn't the first time French defense contractors first promises one work share/localisation ratio, and then trying to get more stuff build in France.
Airbus vetoing subcontractors that are not from participants is to be expected, why would it be other way?
That's what Dassault claimed during auditions to the French assembly. Every time a sub contractor for any assembly is chosen, it gets vetoed, negotiations take place, and it drags on and on.
There's no contracts signed past the current phase 1b. Hence why there's all the lobbying in newspapers from Dassault, from the German aero syndicates, ADS Germany, to get more parts of the cake.
Airbus being able to block the supposed leader of the pillar isn't helping the development of the plane. Especially when Dassault doesn't act the same way on the drone pillar, or the combat cloud pillar, which are both lead by ADS Germany, or on the other 3 pillars ADS Germany is involved with.
As for sub contractors, there's plenty that are bound to be French, because there's more of them, and they've been making parts for Dassault/Safran/Thales for 80 years. So yes, there needs to be a certain split per country, to make sure it's not completely biased, but again, ADS Germany is involved in 5 pillars, and leads on 2 of them. They're the only company with this much involvement across the FCAS program.
The US Navy's design approach to the Cancellation class was essentially trying to apply Agile software development to a ship design, after the hull was already laid.
Of course Dassault never asked for 80% workshare. That's utterly absurd.
Their starting offer was probably about 110-120%, but they'd probably settle for as little as 99% workshare, complete design authority, a grovelling apology from the Germans, and merch rights.
It's really more like "Don't try to do a joint project between France and Germany" more than "Don't do a joint project with the French" at this point.
I mean, Horizon-class, FREMM and Aster missiles with the Italians, Jaguar or Storm Shadow / SCALP with the Brits, BONUS round with the Swedes, and the list goes on.
I too disagree with the "Never run a joint defence project with the French". The problem isn't your country, the problem is Dassault and Trappiers (and predecessors) gigantic ego.
The two of us absolutely did manage succesful joint projects in the past, as long as Dassault wasn't involved.
I mean, technically the project started without Dassault but the Alphabet is technically a successful joint venture including Dassault.
But I agree with you that Dassault is notoriously hard to work with.
However, with the shit show that is the MGCS and not because of a French company this time, I will continue to say that French and German joint ventures are doomed to fail in the near future.
As long as France bends over and take it in the ass it goes great yeah. Then we end up with a shit show like the NH90, another helo you decide to stop upgrading like the Tigre, a cancelled MAWS because you bought American planes, soon a cancelled Eurodrone because ADS Germany is incompetent and Germany is buying Sea Guardians. An MGCS that's completely stalled because Germany forced Rheinmetall in.
Because there's a long list of successful programs with the french? What is "literally every project" in your eyes?
This whole narrative of "the seconds arms exporter in the world is impossible to work with according to one country which barely scrapes into the top 5 and has a history of being a bitch to deal with, and them alone" is just stupid if you align some brain cells.
a mix of eurofighter flight capability with tornado payload capacity, but with modern stealth shit, like every other major air force except france wants.
france wants a rafale 2.0, which is not bad per se, but it's like instead of the F35 project USA insisted on a F-18/X Ultra Hornet and tried to sell it as the best thing ever after toast bread.
All of this is true, the question is why did Germany sign on for this ? France was clear about wanting a carrier capable, nuclear capable jet since the beginning, the Germans and Spanish had to have known.
He's just making shit up, Spain, France and Germany have agreed on a twin-engined stealth fighter in the 15t class, with all the same bells and whistles as every 6th gen programs.
pure speculation, but given how the talks went down, i'm convinced germany expected france to give in to at the very least to the need of the internal bomb bay in exchange for being in charge. when france said nuh-uh first time, germany brought in spain to get a 2nd vote, and that's when france started the not-so-subtle public opinion trial spearheded by dassault "sources", that backfired like rusian afghan ammo, but that succeeded in tanking the project.
Every official pictures/models from Dassault's NGF design feature internal weapon bays. I don't know where you got the idea what France don't want internal bays but it's just not the case.
france wants a rafale 2.0, which is not bad per se, but it's like instead of the F35 project USA insisted on a F-18/X Ultra Hornet and tried to sell it as the best thing ever after toast bread.
Tbh we all know only Dassault could actually make a working jet aircraft, what does Airbus know since Kurt Tank Died? Eurofighter is mostly British anyway
Can anyone name me a joint European defence project that either didn’t get cancelled, went massively over budget and actually managed to produce a worthwhile product?
Meteor, Storm Shadow/SCALP EG, SAMP/T, FREMM, PAAMS, MU90, nEUROn, Scorpène… wait we should have worked with the Brits and the Italians, it’s worked (almost) every time!
no, that's the modifictions they added for the ajax. both spain, austria and philipines have been using 3 generations of ascod vehicles with no problems.
Know what, NEW IDEA
Next joint project should rope in every nation in Europe plus America, Canada, and probably Mexico - then assign the part they’re responsible for via Mario Cart item box or a hat full of names. That way, everybody gets one part and if they fuck it up we can assign it to somebody else.
This is totally a reasonable request and won’t lead to absolute tomfuckery, I am assured of it by the little cricket on my shoulder.
you know what fuck this i’m in
The Americans get to the Collective First Assembelly. "WADDYA MEAN YEALL USED METRIC?"
Hey, now, US engineering uses metric for military applications!
Just use both metric and imperial units in the same system. Make the maintenance crew cry about having to carry tools for both units. /s
I've worked on a car that used both metric and imperial sized bolts. Absolute hell of figuring out which socket/wrench fit correctly.
For every metric there’s an imperial that’s close enough and vice verse
So you’re the one that rounded off all the bolts in my car…
Boeing tried that approach with developing the 787. They outsourced most of the R&D to their suppliers and also expected their suppliers to figure out the requirements for the individual components.
787 predictably ran into delays with parts that didn’t quite fit together. And after having most of their engineers deal with that self-inflicted dumpster fire, Boeing realized they also needed to update the 737 and were very much behind Airbus on offering a modern mid-sized product to the airline industry.
Ah yeah, the Europa rocket way of doing joint projects!
Wasn't that just F35?
The problem is, whether the 80% thing is correct or not, Trappier has very explicitly said that anything less than outright majority control is unacceptable, which is really the core issue. How much beyond 50% is somewhat ancillary at that point.
And, again, whether it's fair for France to have an equal share as the other members or not, that's the deal they agreed and committed to. If it was impossible for them, they should have mentioned that at the start, not years into the project at a crunch point.
archive link
It has been said by Dassault from the start. They always wanted to be able to have the final word on the conception of the fighter and that was also more or less what was agreed at the beginning with them being designated as the manager of the project. They are calling for a nEuron style cooperation from the beginning. Also, at the beginning it was 50/50 between Airbus Germany and Dassault. Spain joined later and now they are asking for 2/3 Airbus and 1/3 Dassault despite Dassault being the one who is supposed to lead the project.
And just to be clear, the fighter isn't the only part of the FCAS program and Germany is supposed to lead other parts of it.
Let me guess, we get something immensely important like the paint?
"Manager" isn't the same as "benevolent dictator". You can absolutely manage something any still have everyone have a voice, contrary to what Dassault is now demanding.
You already have 2 pillars, the drone, and the combat cloud, which is already pretty nice, considering ADS Germany's last project was the Barracuda, of which they crashed one, and the Eurodrone, which still doesn't exist, despite starting in 2013. As for the combat cloud, you literally hired IBM because no company in Germany is capable of developing it.
Airbus would still have a voice, but they wouldn't be able to veto Dassault's decision every time the subcontractor they choose for a certain part is French instead of German or Spanish, which is the current situation.
I swear to god, you're really not helping debunk the french arrogance trope... I mean: Oh thank you dear french overlords for granting us the add ons in a joint project where we're equal partners so selflessly!
Let me guess: Dassault so far consistently chose only french subcontractors?
French is project leader on the New Generations Fighter and on the Power Unit while Germany is project leader on the Combat Cloud and the Remote Carriers so yeah, the task have been attributed equally.
(Spain is in charge of Sensors and Enhanced Low Observability)
Bro you're the one who started this by sarcastically claiming in a very passive aggressive way that you'd only get the paint, you don't get call other people out on their tone.
Fact is that Germany is leading multiple aspect of the FCAS and they used to have a 49% part on NGF itself until Spain joined in. You're not getting bread crumbs, and it's not France's fault that your work share in the NGF were reduced by Spain's involvement.
It's not French arrogance, it's stating facts. The German aero industry isn't as competent as the French or British aero industry, hence the requirement for joint ventures based in Germany, with equal industrial shares and shared development, so German companies can pick up IP and processes from their British and French analogues. Same thing now with Rheinmetall partnering up with a bunch of American companies to make drones and missiles in Europe, to grow their technological know-how.
Dassault's claim has always been the same. They chose the best athlete, the company that has the best product. Let's take an example, Thales put an AESA radar on the Rafale in service in 2013. There isn't a single EF Typhoon with a German AESA Radar in service. So Thales has had 12 years to work on an AESA radar, in service, in every possible operational theatre, they're bound to have a leg up in some aspects, so they likely (not definitely, but likely) can put out a better product.
So yes, there's likely a lot of French subcontractors being chosen, but considering Dassault made the nEUROn with 6 other countries, they're also okay with giving other companies their workshare, when they bring something to the table. The only multi-national project ADS Germany has lead so far still doesn't have a single flying prototype.
But hey, it's just a matter of Dassault and France looking at the EF Typhoon's development, realising it cost more to develop than the Rafale, entered service after the Rafale, and has a similar unit cost despite having more made, and thinking that an equal share joint venture like the EF consortium is inefficient.
Great, then lets state some more facts:
You're broke.
Of course Dassault is better than the companies we have. But you can't afford to build a modern plane by yourself.
So if Dassault wants billions in german and spanish taxpayers money, they better play nice to at least some degree. Because the way it looks like right now, we'll get the same result out of semi-joining GCAP, just without having to deal with Trappiers and your MoD's bullshit.
Dassault and France can boast about your technological edge all you want - right now, you're not building a plane either. And we got more options than you.
Mate, France is designing and building its own nuclear carrier, submarines and nuclear deterrence. These costs a lot more money than designing a fighter jet, especially considering that those won't generate money as they won't be exported.
France could absolutely afford to build and design a new fighter jet by themselves. It would be suboptimal for sure, but if it has to come down to it they will. Especially since, once again, a fighter jet can be exported and turned into a money maker beyond the initial investment, like almost every aircraft made by Dassault and used by the French military were.
Also, lmao at the attack on France's MoD. Last I checked it's Germany that bailed out on the Tiger Mk.III program leaving France and Spain to carry it out alone, and the MGCS program is also at a standstill ever since Germany decided to bow to Rheinmetal's whining about not being included.
Yeah the French MoD surely pulls off some bullshit, but acting as if they're the only ones and that poor Germany is a victim is both very funny and just plain false.
Yes, Dassault will bankrupt France just to make a plane fly, and the EU will just watch on as the second biggest economy in the block goes bankrupt, as that would surely have no impact on the rest of the union. There's no other scenario.
Anyway, I could make the same argument that if ADS Germany and Spain wants Dassault, Thales and Safran IP, they better play nice to at least some degree. It works both way. Seemingly MTU and Safran have found an agreement.
In the end, who knows who's being unreasonable? The company that has made planes for the past 80 years, and is asking for 51% work share and a clear leader role, or the company that has made nothing since 2006, keeps claiming Dassault wants 80% of the entire project, even though it itself already has an uncontested lead on two pillars and is involved in 5 pillars in total, which is the most out of every company working on FCAS?
As for options, both Germany and France will be dependent on other nation's goodwill. Maybe the UAE or India want to help fund a French NGF, maybe the GCAP group let's Germany have their own systems and final assembly line. Or maybe they only allow them to buy the finished product, and France has to cut back on it's 6th gen ambitions without funding. Who knows what the future holds.
My brother in Christ neuron is a BAE taranis filled with croissants and brie and a beret taped on top.
Probably just so happens dassaults requirements for best athlete is frequent le joggings to the boulangerie.
And borrowed from it reducing its r&D costs
My brother in British exceptionalism delusions, the nEUROn is the continuation of the Duc series of drones from the late '90s. If you think the nEUROn and Taranis look alike, you need glasses.
You usually expect a fairly standard set of things from a radar, or an RWR, or whatever technical solution you're testing, that's common across the world, but maybe there's a cigarette ash tolerance standard the others are lagging behind.
Sure, it's not like the ACX started development at the same time as the EAP, was fully on French funds, like the EAP was fully on British funds, and ultimately flew a month before the EAP did.
Are we just making shit up on NCD now?
False. It's derived from the Dassault AVE which predates the Taranis.
Germany has not designed a combat aircraft since WW2, and both the Tornado and Eurofighter were very dependent on BAe's knowledge (especially the Eurofighter with the EAP).
Dassault on the other hand has been designing military aircraft since 1929 and made the first production European supersonic fighter (Super Mystere) and first European mach 2 fighter (Mirage III) and even made some record breaking aircraft like the Mirage IV.
It's not even debatable that Dassault was the better choice for leading the project.
Dassault didn't need the Eurofighter program to develop a twin engine delta canard aircraft, they had already flown the Mirage 4000 and were doing R&D work on the ACX (which had far more influence on the Rafale than the Eurofighter).
This type of workload distribution is a dumb idea.
I mean, Dassault made the nEUROn on time, within budget, as the clear leader, with 6 partners. ADS Germany still hasn't made a single Eurodrone prototype, and it's been 12 years since the proposal, and no one even wants the thing anymore, not even Germany.
They agreed to the current organisation for phase 1b. Phase 1b is not going well, Dassault wants a change, they're free to do so, as Phase 2 hasn't been signed yet.
It is because the Germans are known for their stupid requirements that make planes impossible for other to operate.
Like making Eurofighter not capable to land on a carrier.
Did Dassault steal your pixels too?
The meme got a bit blurry from the vibrations of Eric Trappier shaking over not owning all of europes aircraft manufacturing
Laughs in British
Don't worry Germany, you can buy our plane
Especially ironic since Germany fucked over the UK with the Eurofighter.
How?
Bunch of different reasons, they tried to pull the same redesign and workshare shenanigans that they are blaming the french for right now. Similar clash to what is happening now with Germany wanting something tamer than what the other country wants and arguing that it shouldn't pay for capabilities it doesn't need. Fair point but shouldn't be something you apparently discover once the project already started.
They kept threatening to withdraw (and actually did for a bit) to force renegociations and cut production when they later decided spending money on defense was less important.
But the biggest issue by far is their repeated vetos for international sales that the UK tried to do. Notably when trying to sell to Turkey, Qatar and Saudi Arabia. They cock-blocked the UK for decades on that front and lost them a fuckton of money.
Through the negotiating genius of our current government, we will pay you 739 trillion Euros for the privilege of redesigning GCAP to your specifications then giving it to you for free.
My flair speaks for ifself
mfw I want Europe to upgrade their defenses so we in the us dont have to baby sit them, yet they STILL pull shit like this. Smh, man, at least the UK-led coalition’s doing fine.
I think the GCAP should refuse to let anyone else in beyond licensed prod and domestic weapons integration, they're doing good and they shouldn't jinx it.
frankly their program’s moving pretty well, I’m also glad Japan could take part in the programs as an observer at least. Who knows, maybe Germany’s gonna be one of the first customers if this whole FCAS thing goes to shit
I'll see us either getting a minor stake in GCAP because we'd order a lot, or something with Spain and maybe Sweden.
For the former speaks that there have been a bunch of vague statements from Italy and the UK already, basically adding fuel to the fire of FCAS by not ruling out taking another country in.
very nice. honestly, to hell with the French bureaucracy if they’re jeopardizing another country‘s defense with their greed
I want to say good luck, your requirements are closer to GCAP but BAe will be even worse than us when it comes to the work share and Sweden has always done lightweight fighter so that's not really your play.
It’d be a nice flip on the Boxer program if they came in to FCAS
- Dassault press office
Plus Germany always ends up fucking with workshare agreements anyway (cough Eurofighter cough).
You mean where the UK ended up buying less Eurofighters than Germany despite getting a 39% workshare versus ours of 24%?
Yeah, totally a we-problem /s
sips Diet Coke
Europe arms development moment, huh?
hey it worked really well with
the A400Mthe Typhoonthe Eurodronethe Meteor?FREMM and Aster are pretty good. Storm Shadow is nothing to be sniffed at.
The FREMM did pretty good.
siiiiigh
Well, at least y'all are projected to match us in...
Checks notes
Artillery shell production... Mainly carried by the Czechs...
...
In a year.
According to estimates from July.
...
Well, I guess it could be worse. Could be Indonesia.
Didn't know Rheinmetall was czech.
Does this somehow negate the fact that Rheinmetall, almost single-handedly, decided to do something without waiting for the government to order these shells from them? Like, remember some European arms manufacturer saying they could ramp up production to a few months where it used to take years, but they need a government order to do so. Again, both the Czechs and Rheinmetall have one thing in common: they produce so many shells only because Ukraine needs them. And before anyone points out that Ukraine receives funding, I want to remind you that Ukraine doesn't receive all the funding (although I'm not going to pretend that this funding isn't important, but still, without Ukraine, it would be nearly impossible for both the Czechs and the Germans to ramp up production. Because Ukraine actually has a major advantage over all these European politicians: it can tell anyone who screams about buying shells to go to hell.
Rheinmetal and Nammo are working with the Czechs for this. Supposedly Rheinmetal is expanding there production, too, but from what I've been able to find it's all mainly planned stuff
https://united24media.com/latest-news/europes-artillery-production-skyrockets-poised-to-overtake-russia-and-rival-china-by-2026-7873
According to Rheinmetall, they've already increased their shell production by 10 times and strive for 20x in 2026. 700,000 shells in 2025, of course I don't know how much they are on track.
Already built new factories aswell.
https://www.fr.de/wirtschaft/munition-rheinmetall-ukraine-krieg-russland-nato-kapazitaet-artillerie-zr-93152235.html
“Oh a new weapon program? I’d like to join!”
“Oh yeah it needs to be built for these new requirements of fighting in Africa. You know, for reasons. Yeah I know you guys don’t go to Africa but we do, so we need it.”
“Also we need to have most of the production done in our country to capitalize on the economic benefits. Only fair for all the planning we did for this.”
“What do you guys get? You guys get to fund it, of course! And then buy it when we finish making our design.”
Even the german budgetary office, which is normally the most unfunny institution we have (and thats a low bar already), called FCAS a "'Rafale Plus' approach financed by German and Spanish budget funds".
I'm sure the German budgetary office has no skin in the game in getting jobs to the German people and money into the German economy.
Could you find a more biased source?
No, the budgetary office is a fucking meme of bureaucrats going by every letter of the law, that will fuck up reasonable proposals because they detect what could be overspending.
Theyre the vogons of the german state. They really dont care.
"Hey we found a way to save money by..."
"File the paperwork again! You used the wrong ink color! And where's the pre-application form for the application form?! And you should have faxed it, not mailed it!"
Don’t forget the aircraft carrier compatibility requirements.
but a small carrier, so it can't be a true multirole, and a old catobar at that, so the structure needs to be hardened and can't have a internal bomb bay, yeah the thing every other modern plane has.
Because the Rafale isn't a true multirole?
Every naval fighter has a reinforced under carriage and landing gear.
The F-35C has an internal bomb bay and is launched by the exact same catapult the French use. The Chinese J-35 has an internal bomb bay, yet is launched on EMALS.
This is non credible defense, not fake defense.
It's not the exact same catapult.
Right, my bad, it's the C-13-3 on the CdG, which is a modified and shorter version developed from the American catapults.
Besides, by the time the NGF is supposed to come around, the PANG should come around too, so it might not even fly from the CdG.
20% shorter is no joke. People forget how small the cdg is compared to US, and to some degree, UK carriers.
The UK doesn't have a carrier they have two floating skateparks they use to toss F-35B into the water
I thought the USN was the navy sacrificing fighters to Poseidon
sir, this is a wendy's. you are telling me facts as if i was the person at dassault that said "hon hon, we can't fit this cause of that" and i needed convincing to write out a favorable report. the fact i am at reddit should tell you that i am, in fact, not.
I simply state that this is the excuse/reason used to reject said german payload requirements.
As far as I'm aware, the French, Spanish and German MoD have agreed for the NGF to be a twin-engine stealth fighter in the 15t class, and the issues are purely industrial at this point regarding the NGF.
But if you have a source for german payload requirements, or the absence of an internal weapons bay on an stealthy design, I'd like to read it.
Dassault's design for the NGF clearly have internal storage, the fuck are you talking about?
https://www.aeroflap.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/ERNaekIWAAAWX2l.jpg
https://images.air-cosmos.com/media/a1e260c91305a3211784b9e6009873f516c27f1fc8aeb4ac98f13c630bfe5ca4
"Let's compromise the ability of three major European airforces so that one of us can field a single carrier that probably won't be operational for six months out of every year."
Words spoken by a true madman.
It's nice to see that you're pretty self aware.
The Rafale is not less capable than the Eurofighter so it doesn't compromise any air force, and the CdG has taken part in every military operation that France has been involved in since it has entered service. In fact it's probably one of the carrier in service that has been the most active. The whole "CdG is always undergoing maintenance" is pure horseshite.
Which is something that is already well known ahead of time, so if you have a problem with that requirement just... don't partner with them?
Like, it's just basic critical thinking.
I agree. I could blame France for Typhoon, but stepping in the trap twice it’s on other participants.
"If you were really committed to European autonomy you would buy this plane."
Was point two ever publicly mentioned? Also French air doctrine hasn't been focused on Africa since the 1960s, if the Rafale had been built with Africa in mind it would be a very different aircraft.
I’m mostly conflating all the ideas of their vehicles together. While I can’t speak on the Rafale, the AMX-10 and Jaguar are built far more with Africa in mind than many other European tanks.
Point two is just a part of the negotiations on where the components and products are made.
The AMX-10RC was designed with the continental conflict in mind. The ERC-90 was the expeditionary vehicle. It's just that the French had the Brigade Légère Blindée concept, which is kinda the precursor of the medium force brigade that plenty of countries uses nowadays.
The Jaguar is a recon vehicle, they're just not retarded and trying to force a 40t+ tracked brick into the role like the Brits.
Considering France only has 180 soldiers advising Gabon and Centrafrique, and the base in Djibouti, that argument of African expeditions needs to die. It's just Russian propaganda you're spitting back out.
Every conflict France will take a part in will be expeditionary because they have to cross Europe to get to front line. There's barely enough trailers and railroad capacity to move a brigade from France to Romania in peace time, in war time, we'll have to move 1 French, 1 British, 1 German divisions, plus x Spanish/Belgian/Dutch/whatever brigades, all through Germany, all at the same time. At least the wheeled vehicles can move themselves, unless Germany doesn't mind having 600 MBTs carve up their highways.
It's funny how the industrial argument is made against France, but Germany's "I require joint ventures based in Germany, and require equal industrial share if not more despite contributing very little to the program" isn't an issue. Guess why the A400M's engine took forever to develop, hint, the issue wasn't at Safran or RR.
I then find your argument of compromising to work together very funny, because Germany is constantly compromising European strategic autonomy by partnering up with American companies (Kratos for drones, the Patriots instead of buying straight from MBDA France-Italy, IBM for the FCAS combat cloud). We also know that's it's much less efficient than having a clear leader, because Dassault made the Rafale for less money and less time than the EF consortium made the Typhoon, gave it an AESA radar an entire decade before any EF user did, and then Dassault made the nEUROn with 6 partner countries on time and within budget while the Eurodrone still doesn't fly, 12 years after ADS Germany proposed it.
I just find it funny how liberalism is great in Europe, especially when it comes to fucking over the French and their state-led economy and national champions, but when Germany comes up, suddenly it's all about equal shares and geo-returns and collaboration.
this is a very long and interesting discussion but the idea that france made wheeled vehicles for Africa is something of an urban legend. French doctrine prioritizes speedy maneuvers and infantry autonomy over shock-and-awe, and wheeled stuff makes more sense for that, even if a couple might get bugged down in the mud in Europe.
And for part two i don’t believe they asked for a majority of production in France? but I wouldn’t be surprised if they did, I just haven’t seen the source
There’s definitely been times of it in the past which I’d have to dig out.
The core issue of it is that a lot of these programs function in the mindset of a collective Europe and compromising all the parts to work together. France however, maintains a procurement mindset and doctrine closer to the US, of wanting strong domestic production and an expeditionary focus, which means they have a different focus, needs, and goals than much of Europe.
I don’t believe that’s exclusive to France. In fact, since 2015, France purchases a greater share of non-domestic EU weapons than Germany, while Germany mostly purchases from the US and Israel to fill domestic gaps
Remind us the last time this French doctrine won a war...
that’s entirely besides the point, but if you must know, it achieved all aims within 24 hours during the Gulf War.
And Schwarzkopf knew that he could rely upon the French to defend the Coalition's flank against a possible Iraqi counterattack.
Like the Aster, SCALP, Meteor, FREMM and SAMP/T programs?
Remind us of what happened to Tiger Mk.3, or MAWS, or MGCS?
Why France asshole?
Dassault in particular has a reputation in the aviation industry.
How did the alpha jet even take off?
People will turn back to sucking off of Sprey and then try and hype up this project like it'll singlehandedly kill off the American MIC in Europe
Dassault when Germany doesn't want to finance a Rafale 2.0 while getting barely any workshare: 🤯
I wouldn't call 50% of engine development and the lead on the drone part on top of their share for the airframe "barely any work share"
And the combat cloud! They have lead on 2.5 pillars, France has lead on 1.5 pillars, Spain has lead on 2 pillars.
They want the butter, the butter money, and the milkmaid's ass, as always.
Fellow french detected lol
I beg you please read the article or at least the meme.
The 80% thing was confirmed both by hartpunkt and Reuters, among others. Trappier now backpeddaling because he realized that in terms of money, France has no money, is just damage control. And he absolutely is on record saying they need majority control or might leave.
Add in the french MoD adding pressure, this just reeks.
Point is, worst case we just buy into GCAP domestic production. Sure, not as good as actually developing something yourself, but good enough. France on the other side is running into a budget crisis. They need the financing, or they have no jet.
They're pretty much going all in right now.
once again please read the article! the 80% figure came from a press leak of a letter where Dassault offered (and did not demand) to provide 80% of components for the prototype. Hartpunkt and Reuters had no information besides an out-of-context leak, so I don't hold it against them, but if this was true how come 1. it was never publicly stated anytime in the last ten years and 2. the CEO of Dassault claimed the opposite under oath in front of a parliamentary commission, on something they could very well fact check and then take him to court if he lied?
And as we all know, CEO's have never lied before /s
Both cite "unnamed sources" (which is typical for defense) and not some leak, and Reuters specifically says they got info from a confidential but official german government defense document explicitely confirming this.
I'm pretty sure our defense committee isn't lying to itself.
"CEOs have never lied before", surely ADS Germany's CEO would never, when it would directly benefit him.
"Unnamed sources" aren't good sources. It could be literally anyone, like idk, a lobbyist like Germany has tens of thousands of?
Its an internal document by a german ministry, sent to a government comittee. They don't lie to themselves.
And we literally have Trappier on record demanding leadership.
Apply Ockhams razor...
Oh, yes. And it took them how many months and talks with between defence ministers and the german chancellor to set that right?
I call BULLSHIT
The claim was made in August (nobody works in August in France) and refuted in September, why do you ask?
Dassault reputation and the previous experience on Rafael kinda disprove the point. The project wouldn't have this bad of a fallout over just miscommunication, it would have been clarified silently. What is far more probable was dassault trying to change up the agreement.
Yes, Dassault is trying to change up the agreement for phase 2, because phase 1b is going terribly due to Airbus vetoing any subcontractor choice that isn't German or Spanish.
Is there a proof? This isn't the first time French defense contractors first promises one work share/localisation ratio, and then trying to get more stuff build in France.
Airbus vetoing subcontractors that are not from participants is to be expected, why would it be other way?
That's what Dassault claimed during auditions to the French assembly. Every time a sub contractor for any assembly is chosen, it gets vetoed, negotiations take place, and it drags on and on.
There's no contracts signed past the current phase 1b. Hence why there's all the lobbying in newspapers from Dassault, from the German aero syndicates, ADS Germany, to get more parts of the cake.
Airbus being able to block the supposed leader of the pillar isn't helping the development of the plane. Especially when Dassault doesn't act the same way on the drone pillar, or the combat cloud pillar, which are both lead by ADS Germany, or on the other 3 pillars ADS Germany is involved with.
As for sub contractors, there's plenty that are bound to be French, because there's more of them, and they've been making parts for Dassault/Safran/Thales for 80 years. So yes, there needs to be a certain split per country, to make sure it's not completely biased, but again, ADS Germany is involved in 5 pillars, and leads on 2 of them. They're the only company with this much involvement across the FCAS program.
In other words, the typical European project, one would think they learned from the fun house of Eurofigher/Rafael split.
Somehow more stable than the US partnership with the FREMM
The US Navy's design approach to the Cancellation class was essentially trying to apply Agile software development to a ship design, after the hull was already laid.
Of course Dassault never asked for 80% workshare. That's utterly absurd.
Their starting offer was probably about 110-120%, but they'd probably settle for as little as 99% workshare, complete design authority, a grovelling apology from the Germans, and merch rights.
There are 2 rules in modern warfare:
1)Never start a land war in Asia
2) Never run a joint defence project with the French
OK, I'm ignoring FREMM and a bunch of other shit but morally speaking I feel I'm correct.
It's really more like "Don't try to do a joint project between France and Germany" more than "Don't do a joint project with the French" at this point.
I mean, Horizon-class, FREMM and Aster missiles with the Italians, Jaguar or Storm Shadow / SCALP with the Brits, BONUS round with the Swedes, and the list goes on.
I too disagree with the "Never run a joint defence project with the French". The problem isn't your country, the problem is Dassault and Trappiers (and predecessors) gigantic ego.
The two of us absolutely did manage succesful joint projects in the past, as long as Dassault wasn't involved.
I mean, technically the project started without Dassault but the Alphabet is technically a successful joint venture including Dassault.
But I agree with you that Dassault is notoriously hard to work with.
However, with the shit show that is the MGCS and not because of a French company this time, I will continue to say that French and German joint ventures are doomed to fail in the near future.
As long as France bends over and take it in the ass it goes great yeah. Then we end up with a shit show like the NH90, another helo you decide to stop upgrading like the Tigre, a cancelled MAWS because you bought American planes, soon a cancelled Eurodrone because ADS Germany is incompetent and Germany is buying Sea Guardians. An MGCS that's completely stalled because Germany forced Rheinmetall in.
3) Take a second opinion when generals say the invasion will be over in three days
Why do Europeans insist on working with the french, literally every project its the same, they just want their own fighter jet subsided by Germany
Because there's a long list of successful programs with the french? What is "literally every project" in your eyes?
This whole narrative of "the seconds arms exporter in the world is impossible to work with according to one country which barely scrapes into the top 5 and has a history of being a bitch to deal with, and them alone" is just stupid if you align some brain cells.
but what does germany want?
a mix of eurofighter flight capability with tornado payload capacity, but with modern stealth shit, like every other major air force except france wants.
france wants a rafale 2.0, which is not bad per se, but it's like instead of the F35 project USA insisted on a F-18/X Ultra Hornet and tried to sell it as the best thing ever after toast bread.
All of this is true, the question is why did Germany sign on for this ? France was clear about wanting a carrier capable, nuclear capable jet since the beginning, the Germans and Spanish had to have known.
He's just making shit up, Spain, France and Germany have agreed on a twin-engined stealth fighter in the 15t class, with all the same bells and whistles as every 6th gen programs.
pure speculation, but given how the talks went down, i'm convinced germany expected france to give in to at the very least to the need of the internal bomb bay in exchange for being in charge. when france said nuh-uh first time, germany brought in spain to get a 2nd vote, and that's when france started the not-so-subtle public opinion trial spearheded by dassault "sources", that backfired like rusian afghan ammo, but that succeeded in tanking the project.
Every official pictures/models from Dassault's NGF design feature internal weapon bays. I don't know where you got the idea what France don't want internal bays but it's just not the case.
I don't know where you get this idea but it's just completely factually untrue. France isn't aiming to have a less capable aircraft than other countries. Dassault's design for the NGF is roughly similar in size to an F-22 and will very clearly be a stealth design with internal weapons bay.
You're just spreading misinformation at this point.
Enhance.
Tbh we all know only Dassault could actually make a working jet aircraft, what does Airbus know since Kurt Tank Died? Eurofighter is mostly British anyway
Fuck it. Roll Sky Fighters part II.
Dont worry guys, surely GCAPS is gonna work!
F*** this, give the project lead toa third party thats NOT French OR Germany.
Get Saab at Sweden to lead this cluster F.
Can anyone name me a joint European defence project that either didn’t get cancelled, went massively over budget and actually managed to produce a worthwhile product?
Meteor, Storm Shadow/SCALP EG, SAMP/T, FREMM, PAAMS, MU90, nEUROn, Scorpène… wait we should have worked with the Brits and the Italians, it’s worked (almost) every time!
the spanish-austrian ASCOD
That one is currently giving British troops vibration sickness at an alarming rate...
no, that's the modifictions they added for the ajax. both spain, austria and philipines have been using 3 generations of ascod vehicles with no problems.
Tornado for one.
Boxer, Matador, Taurus all went pretty well in addition to the others mentioned.
It's mostly the planes that are cursed.
Literally every fighter project in Europe that was intended to be multinational has had this problem, LOL. Why would this time be any different?
I HATE THE FRENCH I HATE THE FRENCH I HATE THE FRENCH