I said the pledge everyday all through highschool when I was 18. There was a time when I was a senior where I decided not to and stayed seated during it - one of the “lunch ladies” took massive offense and reported me to the principal of our school, who of course told her that she cannot force students to do the pledge if they don’t want to. So yes you “have to” based on social pressure but you don’t literally have to if you choose not to - that being said, I went to school in a relatively liberal area of the northeast, if I was in the Deep South I’m not sure I would’ve gotten the same reaction
You would not have gotten the same reaction. When I was in elementary school in the South (late 90s, early 00s) it was absolutely mandatory. I remember some kid decided one day he wasn’t gonna do it, and some other kids were like, “wait that’s an option? Cool” and just started not standing up. Our school made an announcement that everyone has to say the Pledge, and how disrespectful it was to our country not to do it. Which of course led to a bunch of other kids deciding to sit during the Pledge just because they were making a big deal of something that seemed stupid. We didn’t say the Pledge out of respect, we just repeated some words because we thought we had to. This led to a couple of months of the playground benches being full of kids who weren’t allowed to have recess for not doing it.
Eventually everybody wanted recess again so we started saying it, but all they actually did was teach us that we should say shit we don’t mean in order to get what we want, and the people in charge don’t actually care what we do or think as long as they feel “respected”.
Not quite Deep South but red part of Texas, Graduated 2021 for timeframe. Nobody cared if you didn’t recite the pledge. Every teacher I had also made it known that you had the right to not recite it but they did encourage you to stand up. Which I’m now realizing that if there was ostracization for not participating having them stand with everyone else would make it harder to tell. Another interesting thing is that Texas has its own pledge that we say after the US one. Strangely enough it also omits the “one nation under god” part that seems to be so controversial.
Alternative perspective from someone who grew up in a red part of Texas but graduated in 2009, we were routinely made to do the pledge despite having the right to not say it.
Finished 2014, ever so slightly more blue area than red, both in paper and how it felt. You didn’t have to say it, but if you didn’t you got “lunch detention” where you had to eat your lunch in a room with a teacher and other kids in “trouble” instead of with your friends.
Parents were not notified though, but they’d be notified for a regular detention for doing something actually wrong
Being from a blue part of Texas and graduated in 2007, no one stood for the Pledge of Allegiance or the Texas State Pledge (which was also said at that time). We were the middle/hs generation they forced it on when we were aware that it was weird and a violation of our constitutional rights. Maybe 1 kid a class would do it but mostly ironically.
Interestingly enough we were a major recruiting school for the military as most kids didn't have another choice given how poor the area was. But that made it more prescient as they knew their older siblings were fighting some bullshit war for a bullshit reason just so they could get enough money to support the family.
I see your two pledges and raise you 4 forced pledges. USA, Texas, the bible, and the “Christian flag”. And they were definitely forced in private school.
I have a similar story. Once we returned back to school after the covid lockdown pretty much no one stood for the pledge anymore. One teacher got really offended and started literally screaming at all of us about the veterans who fought and died so we could sit for the pledge. Like then… let us sit…?
This happened to me as well. I was going into my freshman year the end of 2020, and the drastic change from the previous year to high school was so shocking, but relieving to see. Only 1 of my teachers screamed at us for it, when I say screaming I mean actual screaming. Face turned red, shaking with anger, and said the same as you said you saw. Because it was deep into Covid, our class was 10 students and not the full 20+, we were all sat 6 feet apart, and the lack of communication or happiness affected every single class for that first year. Family members were dying, the world had become depressing, and the last thing we wanted to do was stand for the pledge to a country that never gave two-shits about us to begin with.
Oh and the other event that did it was when Roe v. Wade was officially overturned, not a single classmate stood again for the flag. We all understood the importance of honoring veterans, but it was never about veterans, it was about God and the government. I can’t speak for how it is now since I graduated in 23, but those 3 years didn’t feel real. It never sat well with me that standing and reciting the pledge of allegiance every morning, every day, staring at a flag, and ending it with “amen” was normalized and forced.
i grew up in nyc, went to school in an upper middle class neighborhood & in 5th grade i decided i wasn't doing the pledge anymore. i saw no reason to stand up, put my hand on my heart & recite a stupid thing i didn't believe in. my teacher insisted i had to stand & do it, i said no, he said yes, i refused, he told the principal who then called my parents! thank fuck my parents were quick about it & asked if i had to legally do it & when told no, my dad was like, ok then she doesn't have to do it. it felt like my school really wanted my parents to punish me, since they couldn't do it themselves
probably helps to know i was a refugee & we'd gotten our green cards probably around then (or shortly before? i don't remember) so, a lot of grown ups in that school & neighborhood did not like "us" different ppl
It is absolutely a regular thing (daily in most elementary schools), but it's not as dramatic as movies make it look. In reality, it's 30 bored children droning the words in a monotone zombie voice while staring at the clock.
We weren't really processing the words; it was just the noise we made before we were allowed to sit down."
We weren't really processing the words; it was just the noise we made before we were allowed to sit down."
That is absolutely correct. It took me an embarrassingly long time (like probably until 5th grade) to realize it was "liberty and justice for all." I had been saying "liberty and justice frog" the entire time. It wasn't necessarily that I was being dumb, so much as it was that I just never put more than a few seconds of thought into any of the words until then.
i remember in kindergarten we had a lesson on what everything in the pledge meant. our teacher asked if anyone knew what "indivisible" meant, and i raised my hand and answered it means that no one can see you.
Taught atomic theory a couple of months ago. The number of kids who thought Dalton’s atomic theory thought atoms were invisible not indivisible… I guess it makes sense for how small they are, but I think when I said “like the pledge!” some of them probably learned that the pledge didn’t say invisible…
I was confused why we wanted Liberty and Justice for Witchistan
Edit: to clarify, my idiot kid brain was thinking “and to the Republic, Whichistan, one nation under god etc etc” as if this entire second half of the pledge was pledging to a different country all together
I remember this, and when the teacher asked her to “sit here for the present” and the kid thought that meant she would literally get a present, not “sit here for now”
Me too! I read that probably 40 years ago (I feel like I was 8 or nine). I’ve never forgotten that part.
I remember being super impressed that an adult wrote that because it was such a kid thing to do. And I liked the way it was written - both parties are a little confused, but no one was mean about the misunderstanding. (At that age I thought I would become a writer. My 8-yr-old self was definitely not putting this much thought into everything.)
When I went to camp, we did a skit about a guy who came to the US to watch a baseball game. He couldn't pay to get into the stadium, so he climbed up a big pole. When he reached the top of the pole, everyone in the stadium turned to look at him and yelled out "Jose can you see?" He was wowed that all these Americans cared about him and yelled back "I can see great!!"
You SHOULD be proud. The Portland frog is a symbol of resistance but not antagonization across the country right now. He's quite famous even in my red supermajority flyover state. Even my teenagers talk about him with their peers.
Keep doing what you're doing, Portland. Lead the way of how to peacefully protest.
Yea, this is how I remember it, it wasn't an actual thing anyone cared about, it was just the routine to get a classroom of kids to settle down and start paying attention to the teacher because class was starting.
Not american, but I remember getting sent to the principal's office for not reciting O Canada in 5th grade. Just felt weird to be singing about god coming from an atheist family.
After a few of those the principal told the teacher I should be allowed to stay so long as I was at least standing, but she hated me for the rest of the year. Really put me off anthems and pledges in general.
My favorite part is that it's not even accurate. There's a clause (I believe in the annexation document) that says Texas can split itself into up to 5 separate states without an act of Congress, making it quite literally the only divisible state.
Any state can split with the approval of Congress and that state's legislature.
New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.
New States, of convenient size, not exceeding four in number, in addition to said State of Texas, and having sufficient population, may hereafter, by the consent of said State, be formed out of the territory thereof, which shall be entitled to admission under the provisions of the federal constitution.
California has wanted to split for decades, mainly over water issues. In way overly simplified terms, there's more population in the south, which has less water, so there are laws saying that water from the north has to go to the south. Whenever there is a drought, they still get the same amount of water from the north, so the north suffers more greatly. As more and more droughts have been happening in recent decades, the call for a division of the state has grown more vocal.
wouldn't pledging allegiance to the Texas flag be treason to the national flag? I don't know how this works or what's in the Texas pledge. Pennsylvania boy here if we have a state pledge I've never heard of it in 48 years
Teacher in a major Texas city here. In our district, every school--elementary, middle, high school--is required to say it. They're also required to say the Texas pledge right after it. Each day, a pair of students comes on the PA and leads us in the pledges, and then they make the announcements. I always assued it was a state law that we had to say both.
I salute the flag of the State of Oklahoma. Its symbols of peace unite all people.
I honestly always assumed that all states had a state/flag salute/pledge. At least in my experience growing up in Oklahoma, it was mostly something that elementary school kids did, though once I got to middle school, if we ever did any pledge, it was just the Pledge of Allegiance.
National Lampoon’s Christmas Vacation, Evan Almighty, My Girl, Bye Bye Birdie, The Last Duel, Lady Bird, Olympus Has Fallen, Bridge of Spies, Kindergarten Cop, Angel Has Fallen, The Outlaw Josey Wales, Runaway Jury, An American Tale, The Doom Generation, And Justice for All, The Humanity Bureau, W., El Cid, Jesus Camp, Palindromes, Black Legion, Once Upon a Honeymoon, Telling Lies in America, Class of ‘44, Paper Clips, School of Rock, Megalopolis…Probably some of these movies.
I’m in Knoxville TN and not a single elementary school says the pledge (mom is a floating teacher). If we aren’t saying it down here in the Bible Belt, who still is? I’m curious
Also, they basically stop by at least high-school if not middle school. So by the time the realization sets in that it's a bit ridiculous you've stopped.
Same I remember doing it through high school but nobody cared if you stayed out of it or staged seated or were a little shithead and replacing the words. Just a thing that happens each morning nobody really gave a shit about, and this was in the very early 2000s!
This. I recently had to say the pledge again at 40F for a school related thing. And its like an auto pilot reaction. I was rambling words. I am not pledging anything. The US, like every country, has it's shortcomings, and I am not so nationalistic to see our faults.
I remember realizing late in elementary school what I was saying and getting really mad at being forced to say it without understanding what I was being made to say. I haven't said it again since then
Yeah - droning is right. We weren’t exactly breaking down in patriotic sobs of joy.
Somehow I still like it though. Just like good flag etiquette, hand over the heart etc.
I dunno man, it always struck me as weird. Telling kids to pledge allegiance to a concept they have no ability to understand. I understand traditions and all but it feels more like indoctrination.
I remember having to sing that god awful Lee Greenwood song “and I’m proud to be an American” in elementary school. I was in fourth grade and even then I was like “why am I singing a song about people who died and standing up and defending this country? I’m a kid. This is weird.”
Yep, and right after the towers fell, all country music started becoming hyper-patriotic and moving away from its outlaw roots. America, beer, trucks, dirt roads, and so on sure got musically popular in a hurry.
Exactly this! I was a preschool teacher and decided to not have my 2, 3 and 4 year-old students recite the pledge. They have absolutely no idea what any of it means, and until we can teach them those concepts, I saw it as time better spent on concepts that mattered for their age- the alphabet, days of the week, talking about our schedule for the day…
But I just think it’s weird in general and in the current climate, I don’t pledge my allegiance to a country that is actively hurting people I love and care about.
The earliest widespread pledge was made by a socialist and didn't have God in it (even though he was a preacher). Then the Red Scare happened.
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." (Almost had equality and fraternity in it, but probably knew that would be too controversial)
Overall the whole thing is extremely idolatrous and puts the cloth before the values. I'm with the Jehovahs Witnesses on that.
This year some of us had to change classrooms. For whatever reason, my new room didn't have the American and Texas flags in it. I never reported this. I just let my students remain seated during the pledges. When I was growing up, it wasn't any big deal. Now, though, it just feels kind of cultish.
Idk. You remember the words I'm sure. You have a pretty good summation of what the cold war politicians wanted you to think America stood for locked in your head.
I'm 49. When I was in elementary school it was, at least to a certain grade. I don't actually remember when we stopped though. I'm not even sure if my kids do it. Looks like I have some homework to do.
Same. I don't remember it being a thing beyond 1st grade but I'm not sure when it stopped. I remember looking around at all the kids reciting it in kindergarten and thinking it was weird, but I don't remember it being done every day. I'm guessing it was done and I just let my mind wander.
In school, especially elementary school, it was daily. It didn't really feel strange or over the top because it was just a thing you did and everyone did it.
Looking back it's very strange and creepy, but at the time it was as normal as putting on shoes to go to school in the first place.
I also find it strange. The whole idea of being forced to publicly pledge your allegiance to your country every morning seems very dystopian.
The one thing that that kind of helps is that by the time you get to middle school and high school, it’s just a bunch of sleep deprived teenagers, mumbling through the pledge as a matter of routine. Not exactly imparting the patriotic ideals that a lot politicians pretend like it is.
Also, the version of the pledge that is recited today was (mostly) the work of an actual socialist. So at least we can appreciate that irony.
EDIT
A couple of posters have correctly pointed out that you can’t be “forced” to say the pledge. I should have left that word out of my post.
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Here’s the thing - during the Cold War there was fear that the south was susceptible to Russian active measures because of racism. Intelligence agencies felt racial tensions would be stoked by communist agitators and that white people would side with communism if agitators infiltrated KKK, police departments, etc. So the CIA emphasized that communism was “godless.” Stories were spread that Russian children were spying on their parents and would turn them in if the parents had a bible in the house or attended church. Atheism was anathema to the south, so pushing the “godless communism“ angle worked. Putting “God” into the pledge of allegiance was added to highlight that America was not a godless communist nation.
Ironic update: Southerners, Midwesterners and other Trumpers love Russia because it’s now a Christian nation. Putin funds the building of churches. White Christian nationalists now see America as godless and decadent and see Russia as the shining city on a hill.
Nailed it including the reversal. MAGA and similar types act as if the pledge was written by George Washington and James Monroe added “under God.” I find it dystopian that in a supposedly free country we need to pledge our allegiance to the nation daily.
That's what blew me away from hearing these others say that they had done it in junior high and high school and I only did it in elementary.
Boy did I get reamed one time I was late for school and I got there just as they were doing the pledge of allegiance.
So I walked in got to my chair, and then afterwards the teacher pulled me outside and ripped me a new one and said "You should have stopped and waited standing at the doorway till it was done"
I'm just like "Oh, you haven't taught us about that" I swear her face got dark as a cloud and I spent a week no recess. Bitch expected me to already know that?
Then she had the audacity to then teach the class that "Hey this is how you should act if you're late to class"
Good point bringing this up. OP, a lot of people don’t realize the wording has changed over time, which adds another layer to why people debate it now. Back then it was just something you recited without much thought. Context really changes how it lands depending on the era and the school.
We did at my high-school in rural Montana. Back in about 2010/2011 i protested it by sitting down and not participating, which my teachers reported to the superintendent. It was kind of a big deal at the time where I was, and was way before our current political/social climate. I got pulled into the office for a meeting about my un American behavior. I was accused of being an anarchist. Had to fight it pretty hard to not get written up, but I said if peaceful protest in accordance with the Bill of Rights made me an anarchist then I would be happy to identify as one
No one is required to recite the pledge of allegience.
Teachers are not supposed to force anyone to recite the pledge of allegience.
Teachers are supposed to teach everyone how to recite the pledge of allegience.
If you don't pledge because you decided to not pledge that is OK.
If you don't pledge because you don't know how, then that teacher should have taught you.
The preceding makes sense in the context of college students but makes absolutely no sense in the context of kindergartners.
You are right. People are mumbling through the pledge as a matter of routine and it has as much impact as when Trump swore an oath to the constitution.
I only became aware that it was a choice because there was another kid who never did it.
I eventually stopped too (because I wanted the extra time for reading), which contributed to provoking some *extremely informative behavior and social pressure from a few teachers who retired soon after.
We never got a formal apology (because the school didn't want to admit wrongdoing and there wasn't enough case to press), but the admin did send out notices that it was parent & children's constitutional right not to stand or say the pledge.
(Apparently “reading quietly at ones desk” was “too disruptive”, but stopping the entire class for a shouting/point-and-shame session was fine lol)
That's funny, I did the same thing. I was a voracious reader from a young age and pledge time was taking precious reading time away. I definitely got the stink eye from some of the more uptight kids and teachers, but no one ever said anything directly unless you count one kid pointing out, loudly, that my name was technically Russian once.
Said teacher was very old, very traditionalist, and had probably picked me out as a “problem” kid due to prior issues.
What’s wild was that the “quiet reading” was a coping method we’d hit on to mitigate actively disruptive behavior, and after a few months she went off about that too.
There’s no pleasing people when they wanna be mad at you.
I do not remember much from kindergarten. I do not remember this being explained to me or having an opinion on the matter. YOU ARE 100% right. If we give children choices that they do not understand then have we really given them a choice?
I'm 38yo and it wasn't until high school that they said you didn't have to do it. They still wanted you to stand. I remember certain teachers would yell at you and threaten a write up if you didn't at least pretend to say it. My mom was a strong atheist and did not like it or us having to say it and honestly I didn't like it either. This is Indiana
I do not think they are required to tell you that you have a choice. Kindergartners with stong opinions on the matter can legally say no.
But I remember bathroom issues because young children think they need permission to go to the bathroom and they can't hold it. I think these youngsters do not have a real choice in the matter.
There's a reason we talk about "informed consent" when we sign contracts or participate in experiments and stuff. If your options aren't explained to you, and you aren't given the opportunity to make a decision with all the available information, then you didn't really make a free choice - it's being manipulated (purposefully or not) by whoever is withholding that information. It happens all the time, but I feel it's important to teach to kids early so they're better prepared for it in the real world.
Kids are told to follow what their teachers tell them to do. If the teacher never explains that it's optional, then why would the rule-following kids consider that it is? I certainly never did, I thought I'd get in trouble if I refused to play along.
Granted, yeah, reciting the pledge is weird, but pretty tame all things considered. All it really did was make millions of school children really dang tired of it. But the principle still stands.
I wasn't in elementary school. By middle school I was. I grew up in a pretty conservative school district, so I'd just stand to not cause any issues. One of the goth kids in my homeroom would just keep his head down on the desk every day, which I loved.
It’s a constitutional right to not say the pledge. Both Freedom of Speech, and Freedom of Religion apply (since they added the “under God” line).
A lot of schools are really bad at teaching this, variably because the teachers/admins don’t like it, or because it’s lose/lose and may provoke certain parents.
At the end of the day hardly the most egregious failing of our education system, but part and parcel with why so many people lack an understanding of the rights and freedoms they and other Americans are supposed to enjoy. (Case in point: the furor over athletes kneeling during the National Anthem)
From the Caribbean. We had to say the National Anthem daily in assembly. I didnt remeber saying the pledge til form 3 which would be 14-15.
What grade would that be in the us
Coming from Soviet Union / Ukraine, I actually liked saying the Pledge of Allegiance, because America gave me so much more than Ukraine never did. This is back in 1999? 2000s…
I still remember it, and if I was asked to do it, I would do it again. The United States gave me a happy life, and things I would’ve never had in Ukraine.
I think Americans would be less edgy, anti-pledge of allegiance if we took time to explain what it means and why we do it in school at an age where they could understand.
America is a democracy and a pluralistic society. We don’t have common ethnicity, a special claim to the soil, common religion, or even always a common language. We are bound together as a nation by a set of ideals.
Saying the pledge of allegiance became more common after the Civil War when those ideals were tested to the breaking point.
School is where we begin to foster national consciousness and belonging. Saying the pledge is supposed to be a part of that process. You do it every day because it is supposed to be an affirmation of one’s commitment to those values.
I’m glad it made you feel connected to America as your home. That’s what it is supposed to do.
It shouldn’t be done with children who don’t understand what they’re saying, shouldn’t be used as an indoctrination tool, should not include God as a standard pledge (it’s fine for there to be personalised ones if religious people want to say it), and should never be expected for people to recite like drones.
The concept of having a pledge to your country is good, but the execution in the US is creepy, demeaning propaganda with zero actual effect except trying to brainwash children.
The number 1 thing I like about the pledge is usually it gave you a few minutes of goofing. Teachers didn't want to start until after the pledge. Once the pledge happened, it was time to learn
I'm pretty sure I only did it in elementary school. Possibly junior high, too, but I don't remember. I definitely didn't do it in high school. This was 2000s suburban Midwest for context.
And yeah, I didn't really think much of it when I did it.
That is something that we did every day in my elementary school (ages 5-11)
I really don't know how that comes across to foreigners so I'll say from my perspective that it was boring and lame
It has the droning sound you'd probably expect from disinterested children just making sounds with their mouths without absorbing any meaning because otherwise they'd get in trouble, especially because it was the first thing we did in the morning
When I was 11, I told my teacher that I wasn't going to do it anymore because it violated my First Amendment rights by mentioning God. That was not well-received
I spent 12 years in Catholic school, so it was just something that got bundled in with morning prayers. We said the pledge, said an Our Father, then sat down for morning announcements.
Since elementary school had a lot of reciting, they always felt like a mundane school thing that no one really paid any attention to.
I'm not surprised by that as that flag only represents Protestants and only american ones at that. Was raised Catholic. The closest we have to a flag is the Vatican Flag which was in every church with the US one.
I think we just feel left out over in non-denominational land, because the Catholics get all the cool aesthetic stuff and there's not a lot of genuine history to pull from to feel grounded.
Maybe that's why megachurches get the light shows and smoke machines. We're secretly just jealous of the candles and incense.
Government-compelled speech violates 1A regardless of content.
I also started refusing to say it (though later than you), and after getting flak from a teacher I ran it by the principal just to make sure I was good.
Said teacher got on me again the next day and pulled me into the hall. "I require it in my class. Do you want to go talk to the principal?"
The rule in our school was you didn't have to say it but you had to stand and be respectful. I said it dutifully until I was old enough to really think about what it meant and then I stopped saying it.
I don't pledge my unconditional allegiance to anybody. Until recently this was a democracy where the government supposedly worked for us not the other way around.
I'm not taking any loyalty oaths unless I volunteer for service or am otherwise compelled to.
violated my First Amendment rights by mentioning God.
What is ironic, is that the text as written, by a Christian Socialist, didn't mention God. God was added by Capitalist Politicians during the Cold War because the US wasn't a country of "filthy atheist commies."
I said the pledge every single morning of my school experience, even through high school. It doesn't feel strange because they force you to do it from the time your brain is hardly formed and nearly every day after so it feels normal.
I had teachers who told us they didn't care if we said it, as long as we stood quietly while it was happening. So in my experience, no punishment unless you're being generally disruptive.
West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette in 1943 says you’re not required to participate. I pushed this issue all the way to the Board of Ed in Jefferson County, AL ~2005. Got an apology from my principal, too.
It's said in school. There isn't really a place anyone says it after that. I don't think I've done it since graduating.
It's a regular thing in homeroom before school announcements start. So it doesn't feel over the top. They always told us we aren't required to say it anyways, but suggested we stand.
That being said, I attended third grade state school in the UK and we had Church of England ceremonies (including a recital of "The Lord's Prayer"), which were easily as awkward and weird.
Assemblies weren't every day, but at least twice a week. The hymns were absolute bangers though, it was great having the whole school raving to Lord of the Dance. "DANCE THEN WHEREVER YOU MAY BE".
Though they were technically religious schools it was low key and not forced. We had Hindu kids at ours and nobody cared they weren't Christian.
It was something expected throughout compulsory education. I stopped standing for it or reciting it in high school. One day, a teacher lost it on me screaming that he was a veteran and I was disrespecting the country. He sent me to the principal's office. It was my first time meeting the principal who, after I explained why I was there, told me to go back to class and send the teacher to his office to speak with him..
I had the exact same experience, except the teacher was yelling at everyone in the class lol. Dude wasn’t even a veteran. He finally shut the hell up about it once admin got involved though
Yes. It felt normal then. I decided I wasn’t doing it anymore in 4th grade. Unfortunately I was in private school and couldn’t opt out, so I just kind of moved my lips but no words came out.
Around 4th grade it started feeling weird for reasons I did not understand. This was pre-911, after which it just felt really REALLY weird!
Once you're out of school, it's not that common to say it unless you're part of an organization that does it. I'm President of my local coin club and we say it to start our meetings.
I'm not a huge fan of the McCarthy era pledge, with the "One nation, under God" bit added. I'm an Atheist and prefer the original pledge, "One nation, indivisible..." So, during meetings where we do the Pledge, I don't say the, "Under God" bit. I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who does that. 😄
In public schools, it's a thing through middle-school (grades 5-8) at least. I went to a private school from for the second-half of my primary education, and we didn't say the Pledge during Home Room -- but, I know the elementary school kids (K - 4) did.
It's also important to note that the original Pledge did not, Not, NOT include "under God." Originally, it went "one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." The "under God" part was added in the 1960s as part of the American Exceptionalism push to promote the US specifically as the Godly Nation standing in opposition to the godless Commies in the Soviet Union.
In my humble opinion as someone who both studied and taught US history, it was NOT a beneficial addition.
I’m a high school teacher in a small town in California. The pledge is recited over the loudspeaker every morning along with the morning announcements. Almost all students stand and most sort of mumble along with it. It isn’t intense or over-the-top at all. There are a few students each year who stay seated, which is their First Amendment right. As far as I can tell nobody bothers them about it, but obviously I don’t hear every conversation that goes on outside of class.
I probably wouldn’t institute the pledge if it didn’t already exist, but I think that it is sort of over-hated on Reddit and so I would offer a few points in partial defense of it:
-it’s an aspirational statement about the values we claim to have. It can serve as a measurement of any particular policy proposal without having to go into extreme detail about precedent and constitutional law. If something is proposed, asking whether it would constitute “liberty and justice for all” is a common way of determining whether or not to accept the proposal.
-a lot of countries have something: anthem singing, a pledge, some set of prayers that are said, etc. They all seem strange if you aren’t used to them, and mostly normal if you’re used to them.
-it can be thought of as a unifying thing. It can be said by people with differing backgrounds, and represents a pledge to the highest ideals of the nation, not to a leader or an ethnic group.
I think it’s a somewhat odd thing to do, but I think it falls well short of the “fascist indoctrination” that I’ve seen some people call it.
Very good articulation. I think it’s easy to lose sight of what a young country the US is (relatively), and how it is formed from such a diverse group of people. The Pledge is an aspirational statement (like you said), and is a relatively low-cost way of fostering some sort of unity amongst wildly different sub-cultures under the same borders. The addition of ‘under God’ is understandably probably what riles people up the most.
As a teenager, I refused to pledge allegiance in the morning, because I was against the Iraq War. The other kids would throw rocks at me for being anti-American. The teachers would defend my choice as an American right, but this didn’t stop the “patriotic” bullying.
The indoctrination starts early, and if you’re defiant, you might get literally stoned like I was.
When I was in highschool in the early 90s, we did the pledge every day but we were allowed to not participate. So I just sat at my desk with my head down and tried to sleep through the morning announcements.
Not American, but we sang the national anthem is class every morning. Do other countries do something similar?
Bonus cult: I also went to catholic school until college, we said a prayer to start the day, before lunch, after lunch and before ending the day. If we had a different teacher come in and teach a period, French or Italian, they also had us do a prayer in that language.
I'll not follow the trend of claiming its weird, creepy or nationalistic. I find it comforting and unifying in a patriotic way. Am I a blind Nationalist, no. Do we live in a great coutnry. Yes. Is it flawed. Yeah, it's flawed majorly. I still love my country as it used to be in my childhood (at least the perception), as it was meant to be and as it COULD be.
Plus it’s not like this is unique to the USA.
Mexico has the “honores à la bandera” which is a mandatory weekly event in schools. Students additionally face punishment if they don’t participate. This is different from the US where legally students CANNOT be punished for refusing to participate in the pledge.
The sentiment in these comments is so dismaying as an American.
In Mexico we dedicated 25-30 minutes every Monday to celebrate the flag, like a mini parade, I always thought it was weird but no one questioned it because that's just something they tell you to do from 5-6 years old so we didn't know any better.
As everyone else has said, it’s done in our schooling system until you go off to university.
It’s not weird until you’re 16 and read “A People’s History of the United States” the first time and are like “JESUS CHRIST, is this indoctrination???”
Then you smoke weed out of an apple you’ve cored and kinda forget.
I said the pledge everyday all through highschool when I was 18. There was a time when I was a senior where I decided not to and stayed seated during it - one of the “lunch ladies” took massive offense and reported me to the principal of our school, who of course told her that she cannot force students to do the pledge if they don’t want to. So yes you “have to” based on social pressure but you don’t literally have to if you choose not to - that being said, I went to school in a relatively liberal area of the northeast, if I was in the Deep South I’m not sure I would’ve gotten the same reaction
You would not have gotten the same reaction. When I was in elementary school in the South (late 90s, early 00s) it was absolutely mandatory. I remember some kid decided one day he wasn’t gonna do it, and some other kids were like, “wait that’s an option? Cool” and just started not standing up. Our school made an announcement that everyone has to say the Pledge, and how disrespectful it was to our country not to do it. Which of course led to a bunch of other kids deciding to sit during the Pledge just because they were making a big deal of something that seemed stupid. We didn’t say the Pledge out of respect, we just repeated some words because we thought we had to. This led to a couple of months of the playground benches being full of kids who weren’t allowed to have recess for not doing it.
Eventually everybody wanted recess again so we started saying it, but all they actually did was teach us that we should say shit we don’t mean in order to get what we want, and the people in charge don’t actually care what we do or think as long as they feel “respected”.
The ACLU would have LOVED to hear from you about this.
This was my first thought as well. All it would take is one parent to get heads rolling.
This is so accurate. So many times in the Deep South, the lessons they thought they were teaching us were not the ones we learned.
Some of their lessons were downright illegal...like forcing kids to say the Pledge.
Someone should have brought up to the school that the Supreme Court ruled you don't have to say it
Not quite Deep South but red part of Texas, Graduated 2021 for timeframe. Nobody cared if you didn’t recite the pledge. Every teacher I had also made it known that you had the right to not recite it but they did encourage you to stand up. Which I’m now realizing that if there was ostracization for not participating having them stand with everyone else would make it harder to tell. Another interesting thing is that Texas has its own pledge that we say after the US one. Strangely enough it also omits the “one nation under god” part that seems to be so controversial.
Alternative perspective from someone who grew up in a red part of Texas but graduated in 2009, we were routinely made to do the pledge despite having the right to not say it.
Finished 2014, ever so slightly more blue area than red, both in paper and how it felt. You didn’t have to say it, but if you didn’t you got “lunch detention” where you had to eat your lunch in a room with a teacher and other kids in “trouble” instead of with your friends.
Parents were not notified though, but they’d be notified for a regular detention for doing something actually wrong
That's actually kinda worse....
Being from a blue part of Texas and graduated in 2007, no one stood for the Pledge of Allegiance or the Texas State Pledge (which was also said at that time). We were the middle/hs generation they forced it on when we were aware that it was weird and a violation of our constitutional rights. Maybe 1 kid a class would do it but mostly ironically.
Interestingly enough we were a major recruiting school for the military as most kids didn't have another choice given how poor the area was. But that made it more prescient as they knew their older siblings were fighting some bullshit war for a bullshit reason just so they could get enough money to support the family.
I see your two pledges and raise you 4 forced pledges. USA, Texas, the bible, and the “Christian flag”. And they were definitely forced in private school.
That part was added in the 50’s to separate Americans from the “Godless” Soviets.
I have a similar story. Once we returned back to school after the covid lockdown pretty much no one stood for the pledge anymore. One teacher got really offended and started literally screaming at all of us about the veterans who fought and died so we could sit for the pledge. Like then… let us sit…?
This happened to me as well. I was going into my freshman year the end of 2020, and the drastic change from the previous year to high school was so shocking, but relieving to see. Only 1 of my teachers screamed at us for it, when I say screaming I mean actual screaming. Face turned red, shaking with anger, and said the same as you said you saw. Because it was deep into Covid, our class was 10 students and not the full 20+, we were all sat 6 feet apart, and the lack of communication or happiness affected every single class for that first year. Family members were dying, the world had become depressing, and the last thing we wanted to do was stand for the pledge to a country that never gave two-shits about us to begin with.
Oh and the other event that did it was when Roe v. Wade was officially overturned, not a single classmate stood again for the flag. We all understood the importance of honoring veterans, but it was never about veterans, it was about God and the government. I can’t speak for how it is now since I graduated in 23, but those 3 years didn’t feel real. It never sat well with me that standing and reciting the pledge of allegiance every morning, every day, staring at a flag, and ending it with “amen” was normalized and forced.
i grew up in nyc, went to school in an upper middle class neighborhood & in 5th grade i decided i wasn't doing the pledge anymore. i saw no reason to stand up, put my hand on my heart & recite a stupid thing i didn't believe in. my teacher insisted i had to stand & do it, i said no, he said yes, i refused, he told the principal who then called my parents! thank fuck my parents were quick about it & asked if i had to legally do it & when told no, my dad was like, ok then she doesn't have to do it. it felt like my school really wanted my parents to punish me, since they couldn't do it themselves
probably helps to know i was a refugee & we'd gotten our green cards probably around then (or shortly before? i don't remember) so, a lot of grown ups in that school & neighborhood did not like "us" different ppl
It is absolutely a regular thing (daily in most elementary schools), but it's not as dramatic as movies make it look. In reality, it's 30 bored children droning the words in a monotone zombie voice while staring at the clock.
We weren't really processing the words; it was just the noise we made before we were allowed to sit down."
That is absolutely correct. It took me an embarrassingly long time (like probably until 5th grade) to realize it was "liberty and justice for all." I had been saying "liberty and justice frog" the entire time. It wasn't necessarily that I was being dumb, so much as it was that I just never put more than a few seconds of thought into any of the words until then.
i remember in kindergarten we had a lesson on what everything in the pledge meant. our teacher asked if anyone knew what "indivisible" meant, and i raised my hand and answered it means that no one can see you.
Taught atomic theory a couple of months ago. The number of kids who thought Dalton’s atomic theory thought atoms were invisible not indivisible… I guess it makes sense for how small they are, but I think when I said “like the pledge!” some of them probably learned that the pledge didn’t say invisible…
Like john cena ?
I was confused why we wanted Liberty and Justice for Witchistan
Edit: to clarify, my idiot kid brain was thinking “and to the Republic, Whichistan, one nation under god etc etc” as if this entire second half of the pledge was pledging to a different country all together
"Wait, you mean our one nation isn't invisible after all?"
Edit: also, not to be "that guy" but it's "the republic for witch's dance."
Excuse me, but while we were pledging allegiance to the Republic, 4 witches stand! Only 4. Everyone knows this!
Our country is really screwed if another country comes along and has 5 witches stand!
The only thing that can stop a country with a Standing Witch is to have more Standing Witches!
☝️🥰😂
I was pledging to the Republic Forwichistan. I wasn't too familiar with them, but I understood them to be one nation with the US.
My daughter always said “For Richard Stans”!!
Forwichistan is #1 producer of potassium, all other countries are inferior exporters of potassium
To the Republic for Richard Stands...
no, no… it’s widget Stan’s
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 you guys have me crying. I remember reciting it in Catholic elementary school. I'm 73 and don't remember the the words 🙄
In the National Anthem my friend didn’t realize it wasn’t “O say can you see, by the donzerly light?”
I remember this from a children’s book. Maybe the Ramona the Pest series. Kid misheard the song.
Kid asks the parents to “turn on the donzer.”
Parents had no idea what the kid was talking about.
“The donzer. It gives off a lee light.”
Ramona and Beezus! That's like the only thing I remember from that book.
I still remember that and it's been over 50 years since I read it.
I remember this, and when the teacher asked her to “sit here for the present” and the kid thought that meant she would literally get a present, not “sit here for now”
To be fair, I've never in my 30+ years heard it said that way. I would have thought the same thing
Me too! I read that probably 40 years ago (I feel like I was 8 or nine). I’ve never forgotten that part.
I remember being super impressed that an adult wrote that because it was such a kid thing to do. And I liked the way it was written - both parties are a little confused, but no one was mean about the misunderstanding. (At that age I thought I would become a writer. My 8-yr-old self was definitely not putting this much thought into everything.)
That’s funny! Maybe that’s where she got it from…
Malachy McCourt’s memoir is called “A Monk Swimming” from the Hail Mary prayer. “Blessed are you a monk swimming.”
When I was a kid, I always pictured Jesus eating a bowl of fruit at “and the fruit of thy womb Jesus” and then I was hungry and thinking about food
Wait, it’s not about a guy named Jose?
When I went to camp, we did a skit about a guy who came to the US to watch a baseball game. He couldn't pay to get into the stadium, so he climbed up a big pole. When he reached the top of the pole, everyone in the stadium turned to look at him and yelled out "Jose can you see?" He was wowed that all these Americans cared about him and yelled back "I can see great!!"
Oh, it wasn't for Richard Stands?
In my little preschool mind, Richard Stands had a mustache and looked like Richard Simmons' more serious brother.
Bob Ross?
Isn't that in Portland? Outside the ICE facility?
His coming was foretold by the ancient hymns!
"ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD!"
Seeing other people reference the frog makes me so proud to be a Partlander
You SHOULD be proud. The Portland frog is a symbol of resistance but not antagonization across the country right now. He's quite famous even in my red supermajority flyover state. Even my teenagers talk about him with their peers.
Keep doing what you're doing, Portland. Lead the way of how to peacefully protest.
"Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Frog..."
“Under God” was “Underdog” for me.
Speed of lightning, roar of thunder...
I Like your version much better. Everyone loves an underdog. And dogs are best friends.
Man, I would love to meet a justice frog. Does he have a uniform? A mask?!
Check out the Frog Brigade fighting fascism in Portland, OR 🐸
Me, I always wondered what a Wichit stand was.
Yea, this is how I remember it, it wasn't an actual thing anyone cared about, it was just the routine to get a classroom of kids to settle down and start paying attention to the teacher because class was starting.
According to a substitute teacher, I sat down too soon one time and I was forced to rise and re-state the entirety of the pledge again.
Not american, but I remember getting sent to the principal's office for not reciting O Canada in 5th grade. Just felt weird to be singing about god coming from an atheist family.
After a few of those the principal told the teacher I should be allowed to stay so long as I was at least standing, but she hated me for the rest of the year. Really put me off anthems and pledges in general.
Do any movies feature kids dramatically saying the pledge of allegiance?
Here in Texas kids say the Texas pledge too right after the pledge of allegiance. It's pretty similar.
Texas pledge?! I went to Texas schools for six years and was never exposed to such a thing. Good lord.
It depends on the school I went to a fair number and maybe half had the Texas pledge as well.
"Honor the Texas flag; I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one state under God, one and indivisible"
My favorite part is that it's not even accurate. There's a clause (I believe in the annexation document) that says Texas can split itself into up to 5 separate states without an act of Congress, making it quite literally the only divisible state.
Only Congress can approve new states.
Any state can split with the approval of Congress and that state's legislature.
https://constitutioncenter.org/the-constitution/articles/article-iv
http://www.tsl.texas.gov/ref/abouttx/annexation/march1845.html
California is another state that has shown interest in splitting.
California has wanted to split for decades, mainly over water issues. In way overly simplified terms, there's more population in the south, which has less water, so there are laws saying that water from the north has to go to the south. Whenever there is a drought, they still get the same amount of water from the north, so the north suffers more greatly. As more and more droughts have been happening in recent decades, the call for a division of the state has grown more vocal.
wouldn't pledging allegiance to the Texas flag be treason to the national flag? I don't know how this works or what's in the Texas pledge. Pennsylvania boy here if we have a state pledge I've never heard of it in 48 years
Teacher in a major Texas city here. In our district, every school--elementary, middle, high school--is required to say it. They're also required to say the Texas pledge right after it. Each day, a pair of students comes on the PA and leads us in the pledges, and then they make the announcements. I always assued it was a state law that we had to say both.
Oklahoma also has one. It goes:
I honestly always assumed that all states had a state/flag salute/pledge. At least in my experience growing up in Oklahoma, it was mostly something that elementary school kids did, though once I got to middle school, if we ever did any pledge, it was just the Pledge of Allegiance.
Trying to think of any movies I remember with the pledge in it at all like... what movies is OP watching?
National Lampoon’s Christmas Vacation, Evan Almighty, My Girl, Bye Bye Birdie, The Last Duel, Lady Bird, Olympus Has Fallen, Bridge of Spies, Kindergarten Cop, Angel Has Fallen, The Outlaw Josey Wales, Runaway Jury, An American Tale, The Doom Generation, And Justice for All, The Humanity Bureau, W., El Cid, Jesus Camp, Palindromes, Black Legion, Once Upon a Honeymoon, Telling Lies in America, Class of ‘44, Paper Clips, School of Rock, Megalopolis…Probably some of these movies.
To be fair, Aunt Bethany was asked to say grace for the dinner.
Grace? She's been dead for YEARS!
Isn't The Last Duel set in medieval France?
So, an extra slice of indoctrination in the morning… very modern Texas for ya…
I saw a movie that had the Texas Pledge after the Pledge of Allegiance. It was very bizarre. Would’ve weird to have a Pledge of New Jersey.
Texas is always super pumped about being Texas.
Their flag says that they're only rated one star.
I’m in Knoxville TN and not a single elementary school says the pledge (mom is a floating teacher). If we aren’t saying it down here in the Bible Belt, who still is? I’m curious
Also, they basically stop by at least high-school if not middle school. So by the time the realization sets in that it's a bit ridiculous you've stopped.
Must vary by place because we did it every morning K-12.
Same here, we did it every morning until we graduated high school... but that was also 25 years ago.
Same I remember doing it through high school but nobody cared if you stayed out of it or staged seated or were a little shithead and replacing the words. Just a thing that happens each morning nobody really gave a shit about, and this was in the very early 2000s!
The Jesuits figured you only needed a child up until ~7 to thoroughly indoctrinate them.
This. I recently had to say the pledge again at 40F for a school related thing. And its like an auto pilot reaction. I was rambling words. I am not pledging anything. The US, like every country, has it's shortcomings, and I am not so nationalistic to see our faults.
I remember realizing late in elementary school what I was saying and getting really mad at being forced to say it without understanding what I was being made to say. I haven't said it again since then
Flag! You were supposed to stare at the flag!
It's not "I pled jellyjuntz to the CLOCK."
"I pledge allegiance to Queen Fragg, and her might state of Hysteria."
Yeah - droning is right. We weren’t exactly breaking down in patriotic sobs of joy. Somehow I still like it though. Just like good flag etiquette, hand over the heart etc.
I dunno man, it always struck me as weird. Telling kids to pledge allegiance to a concept they have no ability to understand. I understand traditions and all but it feels more like indoctrination.
So weird.
I remember having to sing that god awful Lee Greenwood song “and I’m proud to be an American” in elementary school. I was in fourth grade and even then I was like “why am I singing a song about people who died and standing up and defending this country? I’m a kid. This is weird.”
Yep, and right after the towers fell, all country music started becoming hyper-patriotic and moving away from its outlaw roots. America, beer, trucks, dirt roads, and so on sure got musically popular in a hurry.
Exactly this! I was a preschool teacher and decided to not have my 2, 3 and 4 year-old students recite the pledge. They have absolutely no idea what any of it means, and until we can teach them those concepts, I saw it as time better spent on concepts that mattered for their age- the alphabet, days of the week, talking about our schedule for the day…
But I just think it’s weird in general and in the current climate, I don’t pledge my allegiance to a country that is actively hurting people I love and care about.
Here, take this 🏆
Why no Bellamy Salute?
My grandmother told me that they used to do that during the pledge of allegiance, but for some reason stopped during the late thirties early forties.
But traditions.
The earliest widespread pledge was made by a socialist and didn't have God in it (even though he was a preacher). Then the Red Scare happened.
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." (Almost had equality and fraternity in it, but probably knew that would be too controversial)
Overall the whole thing is extremely idolatrous and puts the cloth before the values. I'm with the Jehovahs Witnesses on that.
This year some of us had to change classrooms. For whatever reason, my new room didn't have the American and Texas flags in it. I never reported this. I just let my students remain seated during the pledges. When I was growing up, it wasn't any big deal. Now, though, it just feels kind of cultish.
Just imagine "Our Father" being recited in a cafeteria before dinner or something. Nobody actually gives a shit.
Idk. You remember the words I'm sure. You have a pretty good summation of what the cold war politicians wanted you to think America stood for locked in your head.
It's also extremely creepy. Making literally pledge allegiance to a country they never choose to live in, every single morning?
It's so dystopian.
I'm 49. When I was in elementary school it was, at least to a certain grade. I don't actually remember when we stopped though. I'm not even sure if my kids do it. Looks like I have some homework to do.
Same. I don't remember it being a thing beyond 1st grade but I'm not sure when it stopped. I remember looking around at all the kids reciting it in kindergarten and thinking it was weird, but I don't remember it being done every day. I'm guessing it was done and I just let my mind wander.
In school, especially elementary school, it was daily. It didn't really feel strange or over the top because it was just a thing you did and everyone did it.
Looking back it's very strange and creepy, but at the time it was as normal as putting on shoes to go to school in the first place.
Pretty much how I remember it.
I also find it strange. The whole idea of being forced to publicly pledge your allegiance to your country every morning seems very dystopian.
The one thing that that kind of helps is that by the time you get to middle school and high school, it’s just a bunch of sleep deprived teenagers, mumbling through the pledge as a matter of routine. Not exactly imparting the patriotic ideals that a lot politicians pretend like it is.
Also, the version of the pledge that is recited today was (mostly) the work of an actual socialist. So at least we can appreciate that irony.
EDIT
A couple of posters have correctly pointed out that you can’t be “forced” to say the pledge. I should have left that word out of my post.
We do it in high school every day. Also, the original pledge never contained anything about god:
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
But today it's:
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
I had to look it up. the "Under God" was added in 1954, so that's why even I remember it being there...
Here’s the thing - during the Cold War there was fear that the south was susceptible to Russian active measures because of racism. Intelligence agencies felt racial tensions would be stoked by communist agitators and that white people would side with communism if agitators infiltrated KKK, police departments, etc. So the CIA emphasized that communism was “godless.” Stories were spread that Russian children were spying on their parents and would turn them in if the parents had a bible in the house or attended church. Atheism was anathema to the south, so pushing the “godless communism“ angle worked. Putting “God” into the pledge of allegiance was added to highlight that America was not a godless communist nation.
Ironic update: Southerners, Midwesterners and other Trumpers love Russia because it’s now a Christian nation. Putin funds the building of churches. White Christian nationalists now see America as godless and decadent and see Russia as the shining city on a hill.
I was thinking exactly your second paragraph when I read this
> fear that the south was susceptible to Russian active measures because of racism
Like, huh, that sounds familiar...
Nailed it including the reversal. MAGA and similar types act as if the pledge was written by George Washington and James Monroe added “under God.” I find it dystopian that in a supposedly free country we need to pledge our allegiance to the nation daily.
Yes, Ike supported adding it.
That's what blew me away from hearing these others say that they had done it in junior high and high school and I only did it in elementary.
Boy did I get reamed one time I was late for school and I got there just as they were doing the pledge of allegiance.
So I walked in got to my chair, and then afterwards the teacher pulled me outside and ripped me a new one and said "You should have stopped and waited standing at the doorway till it was done"
I'm just like "Oh, you haven't taught us about that" I swear her face got dark as a cloud and I spent a week no recess. Bitch expected me to already know that?
Then she had the audacity to then teach the class that "Hey this is how you should act if you're late to class"
Lol what kind of fuckass highschool did you go to
Good point bringing this up. OP, a lot of people don’t realize the wording has changed over time, which adds another layer to why people debate it now. Back then it was just something you recited without much thought. Context really changes how it lands depending on the era and the school.
We didn't have to do it for middle or high school just elementary in my area
Same. Only elementary school.
We did at my high-school in rural Montana. Back in about 2010/2011 i protested it by sitting down and not participating, which my teachers reported to the superintendent. It was kind of a big deal at the time where I was, and was way before our current political/social climate. I got pulled into the office for a meeting about my un American behavior. I was accused of being an anarchist. Had to fight it pretty hard to not get written up, but I said if peaceful protest in accordance with the Bill of Rights made me an anarchist then I would be happy to identify as one
I am now a parent. As I understand it:
As a child, you are unaware of that choice. At least when I was in school.
I only became aware that it was a choice because there was another kid who never did it.
I eventually stopped too (because I wanted the extra time for reading), which contributed to provoking some *extremely informative behavior and social pressure from a few teachers who retired soon after.
We never got a formal apology (because the school didn't want to admit wrongdoing and there wasn't enough case to press), but the admin did send out notices that it was parent & children's constitutional right not to stand or say the pledge.
(Apparently “reading quietly at ones desk” was “too disruptive”, but stopping the entire class for a shouting/point-and-shame session was fine lol)
That's funny, I did the same thing. I was a voracious reader from a young age and pledge time was taking precious reading time away. I definitely got the stink eye from some of the more uptight kids and teachers, but no one ever said anything directly unless you count one kid pointing out, loudly, that my name was technically Russian once.
Said teacher was very old, very traditionalist, and had probably picked me out as a “problem” kid due to prior issues.
What’s wild was that the “quiet reading” was a coping method we’d hit on to mitigate actively disruptive behavior, and after a few months she went off about that too.
There’s no pleasing people when they wanna be mad at you.
I do not remember much from kindergarten. I do not remember this being explained to me or having an opinion on the matter. YOU ARE 100% right. If we give children choices that they do not understand then have we really given them a choice?
I'm 38yo and it wasn't until high school that they said you didn't have to do it. They still wanted you to stand. I remember certain teachers would yell at you and threaten a write up if you didn't at least pretend to say it. My mom was a strong atheist and did not like it or us having to say it and honestly I didn't like it either. This is Indiana
I do not think they are required to tell you that you have a choice. Kindergartners with stong opinions on the matter can legally say no.
But I remember bathroom issues because young children think they need permission to go to the bathroom and they can't hold it. I think these youngsters do not have a real choice in the matter.
There's a reason we talk about "informed consent" when we sign contracts or participate in experiments and stuff. If your options aren't explained to you, and you aren't given the opportunity to make a decision with all the available information, then you didn't really make a free choice - it's being manipulated (purposefully or not) by whoever is withholding that information. It happens all the time, but I feel it's important to teach to kids early so they're better prepared for it in the real world.
Kids are told to follow what their teachers tell them to do. If the teacher never explains that it's optional, then why would the rule-following kids consider that it is? I certainly never did, I thought I'd get in trouble if I refused to play along.
Granted, yeah, reciting the pledge is weird, but pretty tame all things considered. All it really did was make millions of school children really dang tired of it. But the principle still stands.
Thank you. You explained my idea better than I did.
What I find irritating about this is that it seems to teach kids that they do not have rights.
It's not so much that the child needs the choice, as much as that the parents will / parents right to choose for their child can be upheld.
I wasn't in elementary school. By middle school I was. I grew up in a pretty conservative school district, so I'd just stand to not cause any issues. One of the goth kids in my homeroom would just keep his head down on the desk every day, which I loved.
It’s a constitutional right to not say the pledge. Both Freedom of Speech, and Freedom of Religion apply (since they added the “under God” line).
A lot of schools are really bad at teaching this, variably because the teachers/admins don’t like it, or because it’s lose/lose and may provoke certain parents.
At the end of the day hardly the most egregious failing of our education system, but part and parcel with why so many people lack an understanding of the rights and freedoms they and other Americans are supposed to enjoy. (Case in point: the furor over athletes kneeling during the National Anthem)
No I was sent to the principals off every morning for not standing nor reciting it. So isn’t that a way of trying to force someone?
You arent forced to, youre allowed to just stand and be silent or sit down or whatever as long as the teacher isnt crazy.
I was raised a jehovahs witness, so we stood for it but didn't say it or put our hand on our heart.
Yep. The JW's were the original plaintiffs in the case that preceded WVa v Barnette. It was Minersville v Gobitis (1940).
From the Caribbean. We had to say the National Anthem daily in assembly. I didnt remeber saying the pledge til form 3 which would be 14-15. What grade would that be in the us
Coming from Soviet Union / Ukraine, I actually liked saying the Pledge of Allegiance, because America gave me so much more than Ukraine never did. This is back in 1999? 2000s…
I still remember it, and if I was asked to do it, I would do it again. The United States gave me a happy life, and things I would’ve never had in Ukraine.
I think Americans would be less edgy, anti-pledge of allegiance if we took time to explain what it means and why we do it in school at an age where they could understand.
America is a democracy and a pluralistic society. We don’t have common ethnicity, a special claim to the soil, common religion, or even always a common language. We are bound together as a nation by a set of ideals.
Saying the pledge of allegiance became more common after the Civil War when those ideals were tested to the breaking point.
School is where we begin to foster national consciousness and belonging. Saying the pledge is supposed to be a part of that process. You do it every day because it is supposed to be an affirmation of one’s commitment to those values.
I’m glad it made you feel connected to America as your home. That’s what it is supposed to do.
It shouldn’t be done with children who don’t understand what they’re saying, shouldn’t be used as an indoctrination tool, should not include God as a standard pledge (it’s fine for there to be personalised ones if religious people want to say it), and should never be expected for people to recite like drones.
The concept of having a pledge to your country is good, but the execution in the US is creepy, demeaning propaganda with zero actual effect except trying to brainwash children.
The number 1 thing I like about the pledge is usually it gave you a few minutes of goofing. Teachers didn't want to start until after the pledge. Once the pledge happened, it was time to learn
I'm pretty sure I only did it in elementary school. Possibly junior high, too, but I don't remember. I definitely didn't do it in high school. This was 2000s suburban Midwest for context.
And yeah, I didn't really think much of it when I did it.
Yeah, about half way though middle school everyone stood and faced the flag but stopped saying anything. By high school no one even stood up anymore.
I refused to do it and the other kids would throw rocks at me.
Yeah, it literally ALWAYS felt over the top and strange to me, but kids would make fun of you for not blindly falling into the propaganda 😂
That is something that we did every day in my elementary school (ages 5-11)
I really don't know how that comes across to foreigners so I'll say from my perspective that it was boring and lame
It has the droning sound you'd probably expect from disinterested children just making sounds with their mouths without absorbing any meaning because otherwise they'd get in trouble, especially because it was the first thing we did in the morning
When I was 11, I told my teacher that I wasn't going to do it anymore because it violated my First Amendment rights by mentioning God. That was not well-received
I spent 12 years in Catholic school, so it was just something that got bundled in with morning prayers. We said the pledge, said an Our Father, then sat down for morning announcements.
Since elementary school had a lot of reciting, they always felt like a mundane school thing that no one really paid any attention to.
Protestant Christian private school for elementary. We had a pledge for the Christian Flag too...
I'm not surprised by that as that flag only represents Protestants and only american ones at that. Was raised Catholic. The closest we have to a flag is the Vatican Flag which was in every church with the US one.
I think we just feel left out over in non-denominational land, because the Catholics get all the cool aesthetic stuff and there's not a lot of genuine history to pull from to feel grounded.
Maybe that's why megachurches get the light shows and smoke machines. We're secretly just jealous of the candles and incense.
I find that kind of interesting, since non-doms I guess could pivot to more traditional aesthetics and ceremony if they really wanted to
Government-compelled speech violates 1A regardless of content.
I also started refusing to say it (though later than you), and after getting flak from a teacher I ran it by the principal just to make sure I was good.
Said teacher got on me again the next day and pulled me into the hall. "I require it in my class. Do you want to go talk to the principal?"
"I already did. Do you want to go talk to him?"
He fucked off after that.
The rule in our school was you didn't have to say it but you had to stand and be respectful. I said it dutifully until I was old enough to really think about what it meant and then I stopped saying it.
I don't pledge my unconditional allegiance to anybody. Until recently this was a democracy where the government supposedly worked for us not the other way around.
I'm not taking any loyalty oaths unless I volunteer for service or am otherwise compelled to.
What is ironic, is that the text as written, by a Christian Socialist, didn't mention God. God was added by Capitalist Politicians during the Cold War because the US wasn't a country of "filthy atheist commies."
I said the pledge every single morning of my school experience, even through high school. It doesn't feel strange because they force you to do it from the time your brain is hardly formed and nearly every day after so it feels normal.
Wow, I didn’t realize there were any places that forced kids to do it. What was the punishment if you refused?
I had teachers who told us they didn't care if we said it, as long as we stood quietly while it was happening. So in my experience, no punishment unless you're being generally disruptive.
West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette in 1943 says you’re not required to participate. I pushed this issue all the way to the Board of Ed in Jefferson County, AL ~2005. Got an apology from my principal, too.
You don't have to do it. There's was already a Supreme Court decision on this topic (West Virginia vs Barnette).
There's "punishment", but it's really on a case by case basis.
Most teachers are smart enough to tell if a kid is being disobedient, or is "just going through a phase".
When I was a kid I left the "Under God" part out because I was an edgy atheist and my classmates gave me the nickname "the communist."
We were all twelve so none of us knew what that word meant at the time.
They probably still don't know what it means.
It's said in school. There isn't really a place anyone says it after that. I don't think I've done it since graduating.
It's a regular thing in homeroom before school announcements start. So it doesn't feel over the top. They always told us we aren't required to say it anyways, but suggested we stand.
Lots of government meetings like city councils and boards of education start with the pledge.
Yes. And it feels kinda awkward when adults assemble and do it. Never get that type of feeling during a playing of the anthem.
I stay seated and quiet when they do they do that at council meetings. For sure, it looks and sounds awkward when adults do it🙄
Yes and yes.
That being said, I attended third grade state school in the UK and we had Church of England ceremonies (including a recital of "The Lord's Prayer"), which were easily as awkward and weird.
Surely not every day though? Did you sing hymns as well?
I went to a state church school in England as well. We also did recite the Lord’s Prayer but probably only once every few weeks.
Assemblies weren't every day, but at least twice a week. The hymns were absolute bangers though, it was great having the whole school raving to Lord of the Dance. "DANCE THEN WHEREVER YOU MAY BE".
Though they were technically religious schools it was low key and not forced. We had Hindu kids at ours and nobody cared they weren't Christian.
It was something expected throughout compulsory education. I stopped standing for it or reciting it in high school. One day, a teacher lost it on me screaming that he was a veteran and I was disrespecting the country. He sent me to the principal's office. It was my first time meeting the principal who, after I explained why I was there, told me to go back to class and send the teacher to his office to speak with him..
Finally a reasonable principal.
Late 80s - early 90s. Back then, I was pissed about how injust the world was. Now, I long for such comparatively egalitarian times.
I had the exact same experience, except the teacher was yelling at everyone in the class lol. Dude wasn’t even a veteran. He finally shut the hell up about it once admin got involved though
As a kid in elementary school it was just a thing you did.
Yes. It felt normal then. I decided I wasn’t doing it anymore in 4th grade. Unfortunately I was in private school and couldn’t opt out, so I just kind of moved my lips but no words came out.
Around 4th grade it started feeling weird for reasons I did not understand. This was pre-911, after which it just felt really REALLY weird!
Once you're out of school, it's not that common to say it unless you're part of an organization that does it. I'm President of my local coin club and we say it to start our meetings.
I'm not a huge fan of the McCarthy era pledge, with the "One nation, under God" bit added. I'm an Atheist and prefer the original pledge, "One nation, indivisible..." So, during meetings where we do the Pledge, I don't say the, "Under God" bit. I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who does that. 😄
Also at our local government meetings.
In public schools, it's a thing through middle-school (grades 5-8) at least. I went to a private school from for the second-half of my primary education, and we didn't say the Pledge during Home Room -- but, I know the elementary school kids (K - 4) did.
It's also important to note that the original Pledge did not, Not, NOT include "under God." Originally, it went "one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." The "under God" part was added in the 1960s as part of the American Exceptionalism push to promote the US specifically as the Godly Nation standing in opposition to the godless Commies in the Soviet Union.
In my humble opinion as someone who both studied and taught US history, it was NOT a beneficial addition.
I’m a high school teacher in a small town in California. The pledge is recited over the loudspeaker every morning along with the morning announcements. Almost all students stand and most sort of mumble along with it. It isn’t intense or over-the-top at all. There are a few students each year who stay seated, which is their First Amendment right. As far as I can tell nobody bothers them about it, but obviously I don’t hear every conversation that goes on outside of class.
I probably wouldn’t institute the pledge if it didn’t already exist, but I think that it is sort of over-hated on Reddit and so I would offer a few points in partial defense of it:
-it’s an aspirational statement about the values we claim to have. It can serve as a measurement of any particular policy proposal without having to go into extreme detail about precedent and constitutional law. If something is proposed, asking whether it would constitute “liberty and justice for all” is a common way of determining whether or not to accept the proposal.
-a lot of countries have something: anthem singing, a pledge, some set of prayers that are said, etc. They all seem strange if you aren’t used to them, and mostly normal if you’re used to them.
-it can be thought of as a unifying thing. It can be said by people with differing backgrounds, and represents a pledge to the highest ideals of the nation, not to a leader or an ethnic group.
I think it’s a somewhat odd thing to do, but I think it falls well short of the “fascist indoctrination” that I’ve seen some people call it.
Very good articulation. I think it’s easy to lose sight of what a young country the US is (relatively), and how it is formed from such a diverse group of people. The Pledge is an aspirational statement (like you said), and is a relatively low-cost way of fostering some sort of unity amongst wildly different sub-cultures under the same borders. The addition of ‘under God’ is understandably probably what riles people up the most.
In Texas, we say two! We pledge to the US AND Texas flags lol
Yep - every morning in elementary school. And I could still recite it for the rest of my life if required. It’s that burned into my brain.
As a teenager, I refused to pledge allegiance in the morning, because I was against the Iraq War. The other kids would throw rocks at me for being anti-American. The teachers would defend my choice as an American right, but this didn’t stop the “patriotic” bullying.
The indoctrination starts early, and if you’re defiant, you might get literally stoned like I was.
I used to get stoned in high school too.
Throwing rocks.. really or /s?
When I was in highschool in the early 90s, we did the pledge every day but we were allowed to not participate. So I just sat at my desk with my head down and tried to sleep through the morning announcements.
A short, informal poll of my colleagues says that this is no longer normal for their kids. But it was definitely a thing in "the olden days."
And since school district policy is set at the municipal level, different locations could have different rules.
Not American, but we sang the national anthem is class every morning. Do other countries do something similar?
Bonus cult: I also went to catholic school until college, we said a prayer to start the day, before lunch, after lunch and before ending the day. If we had a different teacher come in and teach a period, French or Italian, they also had us do a prayer in that language.
In Canada they played the anthem on the speakers but nobody sang it or anything, and we don't have a pledge.
it's just a minute or so of waiting for the song to end.
I'll not follow the trend of claiming its weird, creepy or nationalistic. I find it comforting and unifying in a patriotic way. Am I a blind Nationalist, no. Do we live in a great coutnry. Yes. Is it flawed. Yeah, it's flawed majorly. I still love my country as it used to be in my childhood (at least the perception), as it was meant to be and as it COULD be.
Plus it’s not like this is unique to the USA. Mexico has the “honores à la bandera” which is a mandatory weekly event in schools. Students additionally face punishment if they don’t participate. This is different from the US where legally students CANNOT be punished for refusing to participate in the pledge.
The sentiment in these comments is so dismaying as an American.
We didn't do this at my school but I grew up in Hawaii so it's a touchy subject
It’s done in schools (mostly elementary). Not unique to the US - many countries make schoolkids sing the national anthem or similar.
In Mexico we dedicated 25-30 minutes every Monday to celebrate the flag, like a mini parade, I always thought it was weird but no one questioned it because that's just something they tell you to do from 5-6 years old so we didn't know any better.
As an adult, I’ve only seen it a few time but only done at extremely redneck events, like a Demolition Derby
As everyone else has said, it’s done in our schooling system until you go off to university.
It’s not weird until you’re 16 and read “A People’s History of the United States” the first time and are like “JESUS CHRIST, is this indoctrination???”
Then you smoke weed out of an apple you’ve cored and kinda forget.