Hey, r/Military! 

We just published a five-part project called “The Nuclear Sponge” at USA TODAY. It breaks down why the U.S. keeps 450 nuclear missile silos, the strategic debate around them, and what would happen to nearby cities if they were targeted. 

Joining me is Alex Wellerstein, a nuclear weapons historian and professor at Stevens Institute of Technology, visiting researcher at Sciences Po, Paris, and creator of NUKEMAP. Alex helped us model the effects of a nuclear attack on these silos for the project.  

See all our stories here:  

We’re here to answer your questions about the project, the history and strategy behind the nuclear triad, and what we learned along the way. Ask us anything! 

https://preview.redd.it/7ppsj1gdw5cg1.jpg?width=2316&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=affc2de11194b1501914d74110e5ee113ed4b8a1

  • Do you think Trump's proposed Golden Dome is a good thing for the US's defense posture? Or do you believe it simply aggravates tensions for little long-term benefit?

    AW: My prediction is that it will be (like everything he attaches the "golden" adjective to) a boondoggle and a grift. I do not think it will ever see the light of day as a working system. I guarantee you that the big contractors who are working on it are planning to go well over their allotted budgets and well over their stated time frames. (Why do I say this with such confidence? Because that's what they do on pretty much every project these days. There are only a handful of big military contractors for this kind of thing these days, because of all of the consolidations, and they know it.)

    My experience is that the only experts who believe Golden Dome is a good idea are people who are, in one way or another, in on the grift. This is going to be a massive transference of public wealth into a system that had about zero chance of actually being useful.

    Separately from that aspect, missile defense definitely aggregates tensions and leads adversaries to pursue methods that would overwhelm or defeat it. Which can lead to an even more risky world.

    The way I like to put this is: imagine if Russia or China announced that they were developing systems so that the US nuclear deterrence would be worthless. What would the US do? Would it just "roll over," would it say, "you got us"? Or would it do whatever it took — even by pursuing systems that would otherwise be prohibitively risky under normal circumstances (like smuggled weapons) — to restore that sense of security?

    And also (non-coincidentally) it seems likely to scuttle any possibility of arms control treaties being viable.

    Again, I know it sounds petty to point this out, but he is telling you, in what he names it, what it is about for him. It's not about the dome. It's about the gold. It's a grift, and there is literally no reason to give any of these people the benefit of the doubt otherwise; they are nakedly corrupt and nakedly incompetent.

    Thank you for your honesty.

    TBF predicting this is just one big grift is like predicting the sun will rise in the morning.

    Oh, I agree. Still need to be said, though! I'm not a journalist so I can be more categorical about these kinds of things than they can. ;-)

    😶‍🌫️

    So it’s basically the equivalent of his big wall?

    The wall was a much more achievable project than a working space-based anti-ballistic missile system of the sort described as the Golden Dome.

    Surely his Space Force will assist...hahaha I couldn't even say that with a straight face. I don't think he even finished the wall and he definitely would not be able to fully afford the golden dome. I'm sure it's one of the reasons he needs to raid the coffers of other countries.

    He made no attempt to build the wall.

    IIRC he was driven down there a couple of times to look at paint swatches lol

    That makes it sound more like he was going to put up a picket fence lol

    boondoggle

    I stumbled across this thread from your profile because I was linked your excellent answer in AskHistorians re: Atomic bombing of Japan and you used the word boondoggle there, too.

    I love that haha. It's a great word

    This is a solid question.

    There are a few arguments people make when it comes to ballistic missile defense. One camp holds that missile defense is inherently destabilizing because it spurs adversaries to develop new and bigger and more terrible offensive weapons that can beat whatever defenses are in place. Another camp argues that a viable missile defense system would increase stability by creating doubts about whether a counterforce first strike could get through the defenses and destroy the other power's weapons. And then there are those who argue (with strong evidence) that there's just no cost-effective way to establish a comprehensive missile defense architecture.

    So, that brings us back to Golden Dome. Russia and China were already modernizing their nuclear forces and developing next-gen stuff before Trump announced it. So I am unsure of the extent to which this actually raises the temperature. But the amount of money committed to this thing simply isn't enough to make a meaningful difference in terms of establishing an effective missile defense shield when you compare it to past CBO cost estimates. We'll see if the initiative can make meaningful progress in technology maturation for the overall architecture.

  • Looking forward to this one, y'all!

    Always glad seeing you around, dude.

    You know I love the mil subs 🤝

    That's not a question!

    Kinny, ban this man

  • Do you feel the US Air Force using a public-facing quizlet for CBT's related to maintenance and EUCOM usage protocols of nuclear armed equipment was more or less of a serious OPSEC violation as the propensity of CBTs causing the average Service Member not really being trained or knowledgeable as their 'readiness' implies.

    More pertinent - what's the most interesting anecdote you uncovered as a result of this project that wasn't appropriate for publishing?

    🙂

    My knee-jerk take is that if it's in an unclassified CBT and isn't taught in-person or in a SCIF, it's probably something the Russians already know. I'll hold my tongue on my thoughts about the U.S. mil's CBT obsession.

    As for the most interesting thing that didn't make the cut ... I spent probably two hours on the Library of Congress site flipping through photos taken of the murals painted in ICBM-related facilities at Grand Forks AFB. There were some really cool ones, like this Viking riding a sled pulled by polar bears.

  • Thanks everyone for joining and for your questions! You can check out our full series at fallout.usatoday.com. Big thanks also to Alex for his work on this project and for sharing his expertise here today. If you have more questions or feedback, feel free to contact me here or via the contact info in my Reddit bio.

    Very cool, thanks for sharing

  • These are off topic but screw it.

    Have civil defense planners planned around the use of salted bombs that use long lived fallout such as activated Co-60 as an aerial denial weapon?

    Is it true that the event of a nuclear conflict Russia has plans to detonate warheads as ground bursts in the farm belt in an attempt to impact us agriculture?

    In this new era of "might makes right" are you concerned about nuclear poliferation in the Gulf states, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea and Germany?

    Are you concerned about the transfer of nuclear weapons technology between North Korea/Russia/Pakistan and Iran?

    I'll post more questions if I can think of anymore. I'm at work atm.

    Have civil defense planners planned around the use of salted bombs that use long lived fallout such as activated Co-60 as an aerial denial weapon?

    Never in anything I have seen. But to be clear, there is very little by way of real "civil defense planning" going on these days.

    Is it true that the event of a nuclear conflict Russia has plans to detonate warheads as ground bursts in the farm belt in an attempt to impact us agriculture?

    I don't think anybody really knows current Russian targeting priorities. The US position is generally to assume that Russian priorities mirror US ones, but there is really no (public) reason to think that.

    In this new era of "might makes right" are you concerned about nuclear poliferation in the Gulf states, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea and Germany?

    Over the long term (decades), yes. Over the short term (months, years), no. Spinning up a nuclear weapons program from scratch is that fast of a thing, politically or technically. Japan is probably the fastest of those technically.

    Are you concerned about the transfer of nuclear weapons technology between North Korea/Russia/Pakistan and Iran?

    Sure. The real next questions — the hard ones — are "how concerned should one be (compared to other concerns)?" and "what kinds of policies ought to be pursued to inhibit that kind of thing?" One of the big issues for me at the moment is that US foreign policy is so chaotic, aggressive, and downright predatory that I do not see how they can leverage anything serious towards these kinds of problems. Aside from the fact that they are burning bridges with the allies they'd need for help on dealing with these issues, there is only so much diplomatic "bandwidth" and "attention" that any state has, and so inventing new crises constantly means that they are sapping resources away from other possible issues.

    Could AI lower the barriers to entry for nuclear weapon design? Could it help find alternatives to the Teller-Ulam design for primaries, help accelerate the development of pure fusion weapons that don't require a fission primary or even help weapons experts design large scale non-nuclear emp's?

    I very much doubt it. I think this question rests on two false assumptions: a) that "AI" (in one form or another — presently it is basically a marketing term and can refer to several very different computational/statistical approaches) can come up with really clever engineering solutions that nobody has thought about and are non-obvious and yet can be shown to be true, and b) that nuclear weapon design is actually hard to do. b) is definitely not true for a state willing to invest a little bit into it, and has not been true for a long time. a) is, I suspect, not true — I've seen nothing to make me think it is true, anyway.

    Two areas that I think issues with AI and nukes are going to arise (based on listening to a lot of security types talk about these things) are: a) there's a possibility that things like machine learning might be able to make it much easier to detect the likely positions of submarines, which would possibly impact their real or perceived second-strike capability, and b) if AI-based systems are used for threat assessments and attack warnings and so on, and are tasked with providing "options" to policymakers, that can introduce novel forms of misinformation and error and mistakes which would be very hard to diagnose and debug in real-time (because of the essentially "black box" nature of how these kinds of systems tend to work).

    Very interesting, especially on the AI front.

    Two areas that I think issues with AI and nukes are going to arise (based on listening to a lot of security types talk about these things) are: a) there's a possibility that things like machine learning might be able to make it much easier to detect the likely positions of submarines, which would possibly impact their real or perceived second-strike capability, and b) if AI-based systems are used for threat assessments and attack warnings and so on, and are tasked with providing "options" to policymakers, that can introduce novel forms of misinformation and error and mistakes which would be very hard to diagnose and debug in real-time (because of the essentially "black box" nature of how these kinds of systems tend to work).

    I'll second these parts of your response, Alex. During my reporting for the project, some of the conservative experts with whom I spoke expressed concern that emerging tech could someday make it possible to track subs. And I attended an interesting debate last Jan at CSIS PONI about AI integration into NC3 that raised these worries about AI models if they were to be integrated into early warning or strike option processes. Part of the worry for warning integration is that there isn't a significant real-world nuclear war dataset (which is probably a good thing!) to train the models on.

    They will put a Clanker in the kill chain only after I am dead and in the ground.

    In this new era of "might makes right" are you concerned about nuclear poliferation in the Gulf states, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea and Germany?

    I'll answer this one. I have different levels of concern for each of these groups, but I've spent the most time looking at South Korea (and wrote about the potential proliferation implications of their nuclear sub deal with the U.S.). Experts I talk to think that Seoul has the most compelling motive to nuclearize and may be trying to achieve nuclear latency — their president explicitly asked that the U.S. permit them to establish a domestic fueling capability for the subs. Public opinion there also supports building nuclear weapons.

    That begs the point, do you know if the reactors on said subs are designed to use HALEU or traditional HEU?

    The details of the agreement are still in the works, from what I understand.

    Can AI lower the barriers to entry for nuclear weapon design? Could it help find alternatives to the Teller-Ulam design for primaries, help accelerate the development of pure fusion weapons that don't require a fission primary or even help weapons experts design large scale non-nuclear emp's?

    This is gamma spectroscopy question so it might be out of your wheelhouse Alex. With the advent of cheap, low resolution gamma spectrometers like the Radiacode and KC-761 that are capable of very very rough isotope identification for a few hundred dollars, is it possible that we're in the beginning of a democratization of low cost isotope identification? Can these cheap low resolution gamma spectrometers be mass produced and released in the field for the detection of improvised nuclear devices or dirty bombs?

    That's an interesting question. I have no clue. If you are asking about detecting them before they've gone off, that is a very different question than detecting them afterwards.

    It should be also really obvious but I'll say it anyway that you are going to get lots and lots and lots of false positives if people are running around with gamma spectrometers and don't know what they are looking at (or are looking at everything). There is a lot of radioactive stuff in the world, most of which is entirely boring and benign. I got to tour the Port Newark docks once and see their rad detection setup, which involved using some (very expensive) gamma detectors to isolate the final isotopes after a can "pinged" the radiation detector. From what they told me, even with very clever refinements meant to screen out most false positives, they still get dozens per day, and in fact they are all basically false positives, inasmuch as they said they had never detected anything actively "hostile."

    What they ended up detecting most of the time was thorium (in ceramics), medical isotopes that had gotten mixed into cheap iron slag in bad Chinese or Indian smelters (which was then sent back), or medical isotopes from the truck drivers themselves (if they were undergoing chemotherapy, or the guy who drove the truck before them did). It turns out, for example, that lots of NYC manhole covers were made in India and have detectable levels of medical isotopes in them.

    I just point that out as some of the perhaps unintended consequences of such a "democratization." That being said, I would find it quite fun to have one of these things.

    You can snag a basic radiacode from their website for $300 :D

    Yeah, I saw. I'm curious (although not so curious that I'm going to look it up!) about their accuracy, the sample time they require, their sensitivity...

  • Is it likely that in the foreseeable future nuclear weapons will be used for purposes other then upholding mutually assured destruction?

    I mean I'd argue that we're already seeing that to an extent. Russia was making explicit nuclear threats and reportedly considered battlefield use earlier in its war with Ukraine — they wanted to compel Ukrainian surrender or at least deter Western support. And China could well use nuclear coercion and threats to discourage RoK/U.S./Japan intervention if they were to invade Taiwan in the years ahead.

    AW: If you mean "peaceful" purposes, foreseeable future is potentially a very long time... but the only non-weapons projects with "nuclear devices" that seem to be taken seriously these days are nukes as potential destroyers/diverters for asteroids on incoming trajectories.

    During the Cold War, the idea of using nuclear weapons to excavate harbors, dig canals, frack natural gas, stop underground oil well fires, and even as parts of direct power generation systems or rocket propulsion systems were all studied and floated to different levels of seriousness. There are no real champions of this kind of thing at the moment. But if we've learned anything over the last decade or two, the appearance of consensus can be deceiving... at the moment, resurrecting those kinds of projects would take a lot of effort, technical and political.

    There's been a lot of research into pure fusion bombs. I feel that if they ever become a thing, we'll see this topic be reassessed on using nukes for peaceful construction purposes.

    There has been a lot of research into them, none of which suggests that they are actually very achievable as a practical matter. Pure fusion is very hard.

    If it was really all that achievable, we'd expect laser fusion to be a LOT easier than it is. Instead, laser fusion is a great illustration of how hard it is — if takes a laser the size of a football field to get a fusion out of a pellet the size of a pea (which itself has been enveloped by a multi-million dollar fancy gold setup meant to squeeze every drop of energy out of that laser)... that's not very promising if you are trying to use smaller amounts of energy to get more fusion out of more fuel in a deliverable system. You'd be better off just dropped the laser on someone.

    All of which is to say... I would not hold my breath on pure fusion bombs becoming a "thing."

    My comment was less about the viability of pure fusion bombs, and more about using nukes for construction purposes. If a pure fusion nuke was a thing, I think we would see nuclear weapons being used a lot more often, for peaceful purposes.

  • How likely is it that we see some form of nuclear weapon activity, threatened or realized, under the Trump administration? People often joke about it being terrifying that Trump has the proverbial "big red button," but what is the actual read on how likely he and his administration would be to "push" it?

    It is very hard to say what is "likely" with him. What I will say is: if Trump did decide to make a nuclear order, and it was not a "Trump wakes up one day and orders a suicidal attack against Russia and China" (the "crazy president" scenario), but rather something more within the error bars of "imaginable nuclear use" (e.g., as the response to a provocation or event), then I think it is pretty likely that the rest of the administration will work to implement that order. I think to imagine otherwise is to imagine that the system not work the way it is intended to work, and that people who have hitherto shown zero actual interest in constraining very dangerous and detrimental actions would somehow have a sudden change of character. It's possible — but I wouldn't bet on it. I'd be on the system working the way it is supposed to. I would also point out that the Trump people have done a very good job of making sure that the high ranks of the military are filled with loyalists.

    The situations I worry about for nuclear use are not anyone waking up and feeling crazy. I worry about crises that slide out of control. I worry about pressures to escalate in the face of apparent setbacks. I worry about people who believe setting off nukes, even small ones, makes one look "tough" and "macho." Many people like this current populate the highest ranks of the American government.

    Trump made pretty explicit nuclear threats to North Korea during his first term, and he occasionally references the capability. The guy, however, seems to genuinely want nuclear disarmament, but Russia and China (especially) are unlikely to come to the table, even with the New START treaty expiring in a month.

  • With the development of hypersonic missile technology, is it possible we see even faster nuclear weapons?

    Probably. I admittedly haven't done a ton of reporting on the Oreshnik, which can reportedly go quite fast, but it's unclear what its actual operating status is.

  • Davis, is there anything in your reporting that changed your mind about how deterrence is approached today? Anything in your research that convinced you this is the correct or incorrect way to live with these weapons? Curious if you had any prior held positions that changed through your reporting here. Thanks!

    I try not to share my personal policy preferences on subjects that I cover. That said, my personal views did indeed shift a little bit based on my reporting for this project.

  • Damn, how'd i I miss this

  • So hows this going to work when the USA invades Greenland and goes to war with all of the EU?

    Mur, why you gotta be doin the most rn

    Gotta ask the big questions Kin. Same as at every townhall. Ask the shit everyones thinking, but no one wants to ask/answer.

  • Well, realistically nobody will eliminate land base ICBM just for a sake of diversity and not putting all eggs in one basket of submarines (and naturally planes is way to slow). But LGM-35 program reads like a bad joke.

    Yeah, the Sentinel program has had a lot of issues. The Pentagon is optimistic that they can salvage it by placing it under the control of a new 4-star position that directly reports to the Deputy Secretary of Defense and giving up on reusing MMIII silos. The missile itself is progressing relatively fine, from what I'm hearing. But then you get into the question of what warhead it will carry: the National Nuclear Security Administration is woefully behind schedule on reestablishing rate production of plutonium pits for the W87-1 that is supposed to go onto the Sentinel.

    Well, that missiles with same capability as Minuteman III, can not feet in existing silos, do not have a mobile capability (like Russian PC-24) and navy would naturally need to do different one when they need to replace Trident II. Looks really good I guess.

  • Do you have any details on the upgrades on ASMPA-R? Anything close to the american superfuze or technologies being added to non-nuclear SCALP missiles?

    I take most of these upgrades would be for counterforce missions, but which ones specifically?

    Thanks for the Q — I mostly cover the U.S. nuclear weapons complex, so I've got nothing for you on these.

  • D wild, gotta check this out, nukes and fallout maps r gonna be crazys

  • Do you feel that the United States’s choice to use immobile hardened silos are more or less destabilizing than mobile launch vehicles, like the Russians use for some of their land based legs of the nuclear triad?

    Given your interpretation, how does this shape your understanding of why China chooses to build hardened silos as they expand their nuclear arsenal? I have a educational background in the area and I’ve gotten into arguments with people about it, so I’m interested to hear what actual experts have to say.

    Thank you.

  • Ever since the invasion of Ukraine I have felt like we are about to witness the end of the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty. Russia made the first serious breach by entering into a nuclear sharing agreement with Belarus.

    Will the US potentially enter into new agreements with other allies in the future do you think (looking beyond Trump)? Poland, Taiwan, South Korea?

    If other countries seek nuclear weapons for deterrence, how likely are we to see the potential for a limited nuclear war?

    I do not think this administration will do any nuclear sharing agreements.