I wonder what would happen if Ukraine split into two separate countries. It seems like the political differences are ethnically based and will not cease at any point in the near future.
That is all Crimea wants right now, it is basically its own self governing state already with an almost 58% ethnic Russian population. Many radicalists have already began taking over key government facilities. ex:Crimean parliament building and both main air ports.
tatars wouldn't want to be part of an independent crimea or one under russian control, they were deported by the soviet union and came back after stalin died. Very similar to what chechens faced.
Only this time, ukraine doesn't have the oil money to pacify them like the russians did to chechens after a violent conflict.
So Ukrainians+Tatars vs Russians/Russophone ukrainians will be a very messy mini civil war in that area.
Well, since it was transferred to Ukraine, Crimea has always functioned as a semi-independent state. It has the status of an Autonomous Republic, and has its own Constitution.
Ukraine suffers from massive, systemic corruption. If you split it in two, you'll now have two countries suffering from massive, systemic corruption.
I have a love-hate relationship with this map, in all the many forms of it I've seen over the past two months, because it's such a fantastic example of how a pretty picture can make people forget that "simple" is just not a flavour that the ice cream of politics comes in.
No, but "simpler" is. If splitting the country makes for a simpler and more peaceful political landscape, then that may certainly be the way to go. I don't know enough about Ukraine to know the other ramifications of such a split, though. Certainly a question worth asking, though, no?
The answer is no, though. The west of the country is less industrialized than the east, and would become landlocked, to boot. So it would get horribly screwed in a splitting scenario.
It would also be really awkward for the population in the east, who are still mostly Ukrainian (if Wikipedia is to be believed, 17.3% of the overall population in the country are Russian, versus 77.8% Ukrainians).
And what I was hinting at with the corruption remark, is that a split would do nothing at all to address the elephant in the room (which is corruption).
I'm not gonna get into the massive legal barriers and the logistical nightmare that would ensue from partition. But as I've stated elsewhere in this thread this is not a black-and-white issue (or red-and-blue according to the map).
Eastern Ukraine is more heavily influenced by Russian culture and in general more Russian speaking. But maps and pure statistics are misleading.
Look at this article from RFEFL. There are plenty of Ukrainian speakers in Eastern Ukraine, they just tend to live in rural areas.
Even Kyiv, which on every map is depicted as being Ukrainian speaking, is really more of a Russophone city. Day to day interactions are usually in Russian, though that's been changing more as of late. But I can honestly say that it's more rare to hear Ukrainian spoken on the streets than Russian.
The reason that statistics that divide language into just two categories is misleading is that there is a difference between 'language of communication' and 'language of preference.' People who use Russian to communicate with friends and family will still say Ukrainian is their native language because of emotional and cultural connection.
In the East, Russian is the predominant language in urban areas, but that doesn't mean that people don't view themselves as Ukrainian, and that they want to be part of Russia. Sure there are people who think that, and although I don't have statistics to prove my point my personal experiences and anecdotal evidence (friends from Donetsk) seem to suggest that these people are a minority.
Anyways, sorry for the rant, I'm from Kyiv originally and get a bit worked up about Ukraine related topics. You're right, the question is worth asking, but in my opinion the answer is a resounding NO!
Look at how the US voted in their presidential elections - regional differences exist, but that's no reason to tear up a country to create a Russian puppet.
This one's pretty good. Deep blue/almost-purple is 90%+ for Yanukovych, then down through lighter blues until you get a greenish-cyan for districts where Yanukovych got a plurality, but less than 50%. Then green for districts where Tymoshenko got a less-than-50%-plurality, up through yellow and orange until a dark deep red shows where Tymoshenko got 90+%. That same "line" of demarcation is still pretty evident.
Either the pro-Russian Ukrainians1 in the east and the pro-EU Ukrainians in the west have to learn to deal, or that nation's gonna split, sure as shootin'.
Footnote: 1 There are many ethnic "pure" Ukrainians who would say "Those fools in the east aren't 'real' Ukrainians; they're Russians that Stalin moved in decades ago who haven't had the decency to go back to Russia!" Or something like that. It's complicated.
Ya this is really misleading, especially considering it paints a stark red/blue line across the country where the difference between either side could be 49% red to 51% red for all we know.
Agreed, but I think the overall purpose of the map is to suggest that the politics of this conflict is geographic/ethnic rather than ideologically-driven, which I think it does well enough.
I'm so sick of these maps. This isn't a dig against OP by any means, but this narrative that everything that's been going on in Ukraine is simply a conflict between West and East is absurd.
Yes, there are cultural and linguistic differences between East and West. No one is denying that. But simplifying an incredibly complex conflict into a nice looking map is such half-assed journalism.
Look at this from the Washington Post. "The one map you need to understand Ukraine's crisis."
But I guess creating an easily digestible, oversimplified infographic gets far more clicks than a nuanced analysis.
Once again this is not an attack on OP, because he's just posting a map and not claiming that it explains anything. The trend of diluting the conflict into a color gradient has been really pissing me off.
I would certainly agree. Maps like this definitely cause some people to jump to conclusions. However, I do think it does show that the universal anti Russian narrative that is being fed to us by the media is far from accurate. Ukraine is a very large and diverse country. This map shows the language breakdown throughout the country. Many people just assume that the people who speak Russian must be aligned with the Russians. I guess that is why Ireland and the UK have never had any issues...
Yea, it would have been. I didn't make the map. Here is a map that shows each administrated region with the percentage of people with Russian as their native language.
Agree 100%. Neither the Western nor the Ukrainian narrative is correct. I've been trying to keep track of everything through as many Ukrainian sources and the few independent Russian media outlets that exist. Not that they're free from any bias, of course.
People act like if Ukraine splits it will be like Czechoslovakia where they just break up and thats that but there are people of both sides in every part of the country. If the split then there would need to be massive relocation programs before it would look anything like Czech Republic and Slovakia.
Thats how elections in a real country works: Yanukovych came to power - Timoshenko is in jail, now Timoshenko comes to power Yanukovych will be in jail.
It's more than ethnic... It's religious as well. Ukrainians are split between Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic (who practice the "Eastern" rite). So since they converted to Christianity, one side has always looked to the west (including the Nazis), one side to the east (including Stalin). They just can't get along. For old, bullshit reasons.
I wonder what would happen if Ukraine split into two separate countries. It seems like the political differences are ethnically based and will not cease at any point in the near future.
That is all Crimea wants right now, it is basically its own self governing state already with an almost 58% ethnic Russian population. Many radicalists have already began taking over key government facilities. ex:Crimean parliament building and both main air ports.
Ukrainians and Russians both playing tug-of-war for Crimea. Anyone remember the Crimean Tatars? Guess not...
The Tatars are siding with Euromaidan and the Ukrainians, I assume because they fear what will happen if Crimea joins the Russian Federation.
tatars wouldn't want to be part of an independent crimea or one under russian control, they were deported by the soviet union and came back after stalin died. Very similar to what chechens faced.
Only this time, ukraine doesn't have the oil money to pacify them like the russians did to chechens after a violent conflict.
So Ukrainians+Tatars vs Russians/Russophone ukrainians will be a very messy mini civil war in that area.
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The goths are extinct
If we go digging through Spain, we could probably find some?
No need. Just go to Hot Topic.
(insert angry comment on The Cure vs. Hot Topic Goths)
The context is CRIMEAN goths, not other assorted goths.
Visigoths, Ostragoths, and now Crimean Goths? Too many, I say.
Boil 'em, mash em', stick em' in a stew?
They've moved back after the fall of the Soviet Union.
Well, since it was transferred to Ukraine, Crimea has always functioned as a semi-independent state. It has the status of an Autonomous Republic, and has its own Constitution.
Ukraine suffers from massive, systemic corruption. If you split it in two, you'll now have two countries suffering from massive, systemic corruption.
I have a love-hate relationship with this map, in all the many forms of it I've seen over the past two months, because it's such a fantastic example of how a pretty picture can make people forget that "simple" is just not a flavour that the ice cream of politics comes in.
No, but "simpler" is. If splitting the country makes for a simpler and more peaceful political landscape, then that may certainly be the way to go. I don't know enough about Ukraine to know the other ramifications of such a split, though. Certainly a question worth asking, though, no?
Fair enough.
The answer is no, though. The west of the country is less industrialized than the east, and would become landlocked, to boot. So it would get horribly screwed in a splitting scenario.
It would also be really awkward for the population in the east, who are still mostly Ukrainian (if Wikipedia is to be believed, 17.3% of the overall population in the country are Russian, versus 77.8% Ukrainians).
And what I was hinting at with the corruption remark, is that a split would do nothing at all to address the elephant in the room (which is corruption).
Landlocked doesn't mean hopelessly backward. Switzerland, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, ...
No, but not having the valuable Black Sea ports means they're a lot less valuable to the EU.
..just a friendly reminder that Czechoslovakia doesn't exist anymore.
Yup, I know. Unlike current Czech Republic Czechoslovakia was a modest success, so for the sake of the argument I listed it instead.
Worth asking? Yes. Feasible or a good idea? No.
I'm not gonna get into the massive legal barriers and the logistical nightmare that would ensue from partition. But as I've stated elsewhere in this thread this is not a black-and-white issue (or red-and-blue according to the map).
Eastern Ukraine is more heavily influenced by Russian culture and in general more Russian speaking. But maps and pure statistics are misleading.
Look at this article from RFEFL. There are plenty of Ukrainian speakers in Eastern Ukraine, they just tend to live in rural areas.
Even Kyiv, which on every map is depicted as being Ukrainian speaking, is really more of a Russophone city. Day to day interactions are usually in Russian, though that's been changing more as of late. But I can honestly say that it's more rare to hear Ukrainian spoken on the streets than Russian.
The reason that statistics that divide language into just two categories is misleading is that there is a difference between 'language of communication' and 'language of preference.' People who use Russian to communicate with friends and family will still say Ukrainian is their native language because of emotional and cultural connection.
In the East, Russian is the predominant language in urban areas, but that doesn't mean that people don't view themselves as Ukrainian, and that they want to be part of Russia. Sure there are people who think that, and although I don't have statistics to prove my point my personal experiences and anecdotal evidence (friends from Donetsk) seem to suggest that these people are a minority.
Anyways, sorry for the rant, I'm from Kyiv originally and get a bit worked up about Ukraine related topics. You're right, the question is worth asking, but in my opinion the answer is a resounding NO!
Not really.
Look at how the US voted in their presidential elections - regional differences exist, but that's no reason to tear up a country to create a Russian puppet.
How about give one part to Russia and keep the rest Ukrainian?
A new northern ireland (norn ireland) / Ireland ( roi) 45 years ago.....
Ireland & Northern Ireland split 92 years ago; well, technically 94 years ago
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This one's pretty good. Deep blue/almost-purple is 90%+ for Yanukovych, then down through lighter blues until you get a greenish-cyan for districts where Yanukovych got a plurality, but less than 50%. Then green for districts where Tymoshenko got a less-than-50%-plurality, up through yellow and orange until a dark deep red shows where Tymoshenko got 90+%. That same "line" of demarcation is still pretty evident.
Either the pro-Russian Ukrainians1 in the east and the pro-EU Ukrainians in the west have to learn to deal, or that nation's gonna split, sure as shootin'.
Footnote: 1 There are many ethnic "pure" Ukrainians who would say "Those fools in the east aren't 'real' Ukrainians; they're Russians that Stalin moved in decades ago who haven't had the decency to go back to Russia!" Or something like that. It's complicated.
Dat map is great. Thanks!
Ya this is really misleading, especially considering it paints a stark red/blue line across the country where the difference between either side could be 49% red to 51% red for all we know.
Agreed, but I think the overall purpose of the map is to suggest that the politics of this conflict is geographic/ethnic rather than ideologically-driven, which I think it does well enough.
Why did Yanukovich remain so popular after an election rigging scandal?
If he's a half-decent politician, he can redirect, point fingers, and accuse his way back into his demographic's hearts.
I'm so sick of these maps. This isn't a dig against OP by any means, but this narrative that everything that's been going on in Ukraine is simply a conflict between West and East is absurd.
Yes, there are cultural and linguistic differences between East and West. No one is denying that. But simplifying an incredibly complex conflict into a nice looking map is such half-assed journalism.
Look at this from the Washington Post. "The one map you need to understand Ukraine's crisis."
But I guess creating an easily digestible, oversimplified infographic gets far more clicks than a nuanced analysis.
Once again this is not an attack on OP, because he's just posting a map and not claiming that it explains anything. The trend of diluting the conflict into a color gradient has been really pissing me off.
I would certainly agree. Maps like this definitely cause some people to jump to conclusions. However, I do think it does show that the universal anti Russian narrative that is being fed to us by the media is far from accurate. Ukraine is a very large and diverse country. This map shows the language breakdown throughout the country. Many people just assume that the people who speak Russian must be aligned with the Russians. I guess that is why Ireland and the UK have never had any issues...
That map uses the most absurd percentage ranges. Clearly a 0-20, 21-30, 31-40, etc breakdown would have hindered the point they wanted to make.
Yea, it would have been. I didn't make the map. Here is a map that shows each administrated region with the percentage of people with Russian as their native language.
There we go. Actually informative now.
Agree 100%. Neither the Western nor the Ukrainian narrative is correct. I've been trying to keep track of everything through as many Ukrainian sources and the few independent Russian media outlets that exist. Not that they're free from any bias, of course.
People act like if Ukraine splits it will be like Czechoslovakia where they just break up and thats that but there are people of both sides in every part of the country. If the split then there would need to be massive relocation programs before it would look anything like Czech Republic and Slovakia.
Thats how elections in a real country works: Yanukovych came to power - Timoshenko is in jail, now Timoshenko comes to power Yanukovych will be in jail.
It's more than ethnic... It's religious as well. Ukrainians are split between Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic (who practice the "Eastern" rite). So since they converted to Christianity, one side has always looked to the west (including the Nazis), one side to the east (including Stalin). They just can't get along. For old, bullshit reasons.
Very similar to this map which came on TV just now.
Sorry for shitty quality.
http://i.imgur.com/K8pIrsR.jpg